View Full Version : Rescue Me!
Help! Through and long and diligent process, I have finally made the switch from resting my right hand pinkie to playing "freehand."
The only problem is now, after playing for awhile my right shoulder seems to be tensing up, or something. It feels tired and sore afterwards.
I'm trying to nip this in the bud, by playing slower tunes that I know well, always with an "eye" on my shoulder, making sure it is relaxed. But, it seems as soon as my mind focuses on the music--a louder phrase, or a more difficult one--there goes the shoulder again.
Any ideas out there? Anyone had this problem?
John Bertotti
May-01-2004, 5:04pm
I think maybe you are using different muscles in the shoulder. Maybe a bit more rotator cuff. I would stretch the shoulder before and after practice and perhaps practice shorter periods at a time for a short while to let these muscles catch up with the rest of the muscles in your shoulder. I'm no pro I've just experienced something similar switching to new techniques in the martial arts. John
That sounds about right, John. I had a problem something like this once before, too, from another activity. That's probably why I noticed this. I do NOT want to go there again.
It actually feels like I'm tensing muscles around my shoulder blade, as well as the joint itself.
Dang, is it always SOMEthing? I finally got one thing right and then THIS! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Bandersnatch Reverb
May-01-2004, 8:00pm
Get yourself a nice professional massage. Amazing what that will do!
beachbum
May-01-2004, 8:08pm
I've started having the same thing happen to me. I didn't realize it until you said something but I noticed it when I stopped posting my pinkie also. I just don't go as long now but that doesn't seem like a very good option either.
John Bertotti
May-01-2004, 8:48pm
Professional message sounds good but that wont strengthen those muscles. Find a pro locally to show you some training techniques for you shoulders. You may want to check with a chiro also, make sure you don't have any impingement of the nerves in your neck. John
mikeomando
May-01-2004, 9:29pm
Try varying the length of your strap. The different posistions might help spread the stress.
Thanks for the suggestions, fellas. I'm paying attention to everything, believe me! At my age, this stuff is not funny.
I used to have a chiropractor/massage therapist who could fix ANYthing wrong with me. Sadly, I moved far, far away from her....
mandocrucian
May-02-2004, 7:49am
Mike -
Is your right forearm still in contact with the rim of the instrument, or, are you not only playing "free wrist" but also "free arm".
If the latter, you are probably raising your shoulder or perhaps pushing it forward. And playing too fast a tempo, you tighten up and the shoulder goes up. #You should post a few photos of yourself playing, where an inefficient stance would reveal itself more easily to those who know what to look for.
Niles H
Thanks, Niles. #My wrist is still resting on the rim. #My right hand heel also lightly brushes the Weber Wood Nymph I have installed just behind the bridge.
I'm having enough trouble controlling my pick this way. # Are you suggesting that some players play with a completely free arm? # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
mandocrucian
May-02-2004, 11:23am
My wrist is still resting on the rim. #My right hand heel also lightly brushes the Weber Wood Nymph I have installed just behind the bridge.
Your wrist? is this a typo?
Think of the mandolin a clock. The neck is 12 o'clock, the tailpiece is 6:00. The bridge is the axis between 9:00 and 3:00. #My forearm is lightly in contact with the rim somewhere betweem 7:00 and 8:00; the arm/hand is angled to just below the bottom of the fretboad (the oval hole on an old "A"). #
Do you have the instrument flat on your belly, or is it slung slightly to the right side with the neck angling forward-left by about 45 degrees? (Think of how a #Stratocaster wants to rest.) #
You're doing something which is making the R shoulder lift or push forward. #If the instrument is resting on a plane too parallel to the front of your body, the R elbow has to rotate forward (now the elbow is pointing directly to your right), and that in turn pushes the R shoulder forward. #If you sit in a chair with your hands down directly in front of you, forearms resting on your upper legs - raise your right hand up to your mouth as if you were going to take a drink. This is the same plane of motion your forearm should be on when playing.
Are you suggesting that some players play with a completely free arm?
Re: Free Arm - I don't know about others, but I'll play this way at times depending on the sort of sonic attack I want to generate. Tends to be more on blues and/or rock type stuff, which is a much different game than playing fiddle tunes. #I'm not trying for a mandolin sound here, but trying to get something sounding a lot closer to electric guitar (but acoustically without an amp).
Heavy upstroking on doublestops or chords ala John Lee Hooker, the "pendulum"strum, forward and reverse windmills, "playing air"ala funk rhythm guitar, the forward and reverse "winch crank", the SRV "crosscut saw" (think "Pride And Joy"chord strum motion), picking way up over the fretboard (w/RH), two-hand tapping..... #either you must have the free arm, or the added mobility of the free arm can be helpful.
Niles Hokkanen
Niles, thank you so much for this diagnosis. #I doubt I could have got a better one from a doctor. #
Yes, I meant #forearm, not wrist. #Sorry.
I walked myself through exactly everything you wrote (this all should be archived somewhere, IMHO). #I think I'm good, as you describe it. #The soreness is more in my back, between my shoulder blade and spine, making me think I'm tensing in a backward direction, not forward.
I stood in front of a mirror, while picking a simple d-u stroke over and over. #There is no visible motion in my shoulder. #
I think I've gotten more than my money's worth here. # I've adjusted my strap (seemed to help for a little while, at least). #I'm being very precise in everything you described (including that 45 degree angle--had that already). #You must have had a similar problem to able to break this down so well. #I'll keep at it and report back if I can't get over this. #I'm paying more attention to relaxing the whole shoulder than I am the music for awhile, until it becomes automatic.
A HUGE thank you to everyone, especially #you , Niles. #You da best! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
John Bertotti
May-02-2004, 3:00pm
You can always tell a post from a master in comparison to those from us that just want to help. Niles is a master. John
jamesrenz
May-03-2004, 12:44pm
Niles:
jamesrenz
May-03-2004, 12:49pm
Niles:
I was interested in your analysis re. right arm positioning. #Per your previous posts re. lefties playing right-handed, have you found that lefties have any more difficulty positioning the right arm, or with mandolin positioning in general, than righties?
Niles, another thanks for your help. I played a long time today, paying careful attention to everything you said. I think most important was that 45 degrees to the body part. I wasn't holding it nearly that far out. When I did, it seems to put my shoulder in a more relaxed position.
I seriously think that whole post should be in a book somewhere.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
mandocrucian
May-03-2004, 9:59pm
Mike, #Good to hear you're getting some relief. I haven't had that problem myself, rather it is (another) convergence of the music and the martial arts training. Some of the hard styles may emphasize brute force, but the soft styles and internal arts are finesse oriented with very fluid, relaxed movements. Once the Tin Man got the oil can, it's natural that everything else gets smoother too.
I seriously think that whole post should be in a book somewhere
That's in the works. I'm working on a beginner mando method now. I've been working on portions of it for a couple years (along with more advanced materials), but how to carve up the material and how to present it in a way that hand/ear/mind get connected as early as possible had been a thorny issue. But, the pieces have pretty much fallen into place, and I know how it needs to be done. I hope to get something out by July 04.
There will be photos of instrument positioning, hand positions/grips etc. along with explanatory text about why I think some ways of doing stuff is advantageous. The overall approach is going to be a lot different than what's currently available, integrating ear training, intellectual understanding of theory and, the hand mechanics of playing. Concerning the latter - I'm test driving this material myself, as I work at playing the instrument left-handed. There are things, note passages, etc. which I am finding difficult, awkward and/or problematic, and it's necessary put together exercises to deal with those issues and work up to them. (The terrain sure looks a lot different at ground level than it does from 10,000 feet! Feels a lot different too! I feel your pain!)
Lately I've probably been putting in two to three times more time playing left-handed as right. (Surprisingly, I use the free wrist; it just feels the most natural way to do it.) There are insights I'm encountering which otherwise would remain unnoticed and stay completely overlooked.
Per your previous posts re. lefties playing right-handed, have you found that lefties have any more difficulty positioning the right arm, or with mandolin positioning in general, than righties?
I don't think instrument positioning has much direct connection to RH vs. LH.
Niles Hokkanen
springer_spaniel
May-04-2004, 5:59pm
Curoiusly enough, this happened to me last year.
It wasn't shoulder strain though, although it sure felt like it. My shoulder would be so tight and sore after playing that I would get headaches.
Turns out it was a tensing of my triceps and deltoid muscles while picking that caused my shoulder to tense up.
The muscles in my arm felt fine, but my shoulder reeallly hurt. It wasn't until I did a month of ultrasound and phsical therapy on my shoulder that the root cause was discovered as a strained triceps.
You might want to look into stretching those muscles by themselves and see if your shoulder pain goes away.
Good Luck !
Niles, this is great! # Put me down for a copy of that book. #I guess I can't call myself a beginner, but just to have all that information in one place will be worth the money. #You are more thorough than anyone I've ever met. #(I have some old copies of the Mandocrucian Digest!)
Springer--thanks for sharing. #I hope I'm heading this off before I need therapy....