Encourage all levels of players.

[smilnJackB]

There is a good discussion on mandolin capos in the equipment section of this message board. #It got me thinking... # There are a small minority of 'elitist' folks who look down on capos and anything less than mando excellence. #[B] #I think they miss the hugely important point that we need to encourage players of all levels. #
# #I remember how thrilled I was to learn the 2 finger G,C & D chords and be able to play simple songs. # Some players never advance much from that and if they are playing, singing and having fun, then God has blessed em' with the gift of music and higher level players should help and encourgage them. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
# Make a joyful noise.

[dixiecreek]

Amen! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[duuuude]

Yep, it ain't what ya play, or how ya play, but that you play! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[John Zimm]

Some players never advance much from that and if they are playing, singing and having fun, then God has blessed em' with the gift of music and higher level players should help and encourgage them.

I agree 100%. I know we all try and get better on the mandolin, but most of us will never play like Thile. That doesn't mean we can't get a lot of joy and satisfaction out of the mandolin though.

-John.

[GBG]

I like the analogy of playing golf. If everyone had to be a Tiger Woods or Ben Crenshaw to be able to play golf, there wouldn't be many golf courses or equipment vendors. "Duffers" can enjoy trying to play music as much (and sometimes more) than the superpickers and pros.

[Michael H Geimer]

Yep.

There is this culture of professional expectations that has crept into so many pastimes that - IMO - should never have gone professional in the first place.

A kid can't just play basketball anymore. If he's any good he's told to go for a scholarship, and if he isn't any good ... well, then he's just wasting his time as he'll never get a scholarship. Gymanstics, skating, and even drawing and painting have become illusionary career paths, such that you can't just enjoy them for there own sake any longer.

I don't even *want* to play like Thile.

[John Flynn]

I don't even *want* to play like Thile.
Yesss! I'm with you Benigus! I hereby solemnly pledge to all of you on this board that I will never, ever play like Chris Thile! No, I'm serious, tell him he doesn't have to worry anymore. I feel so much better now! Who else will take the pledge? Come on now...
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Seriously, I would rather listen to myself playing decently than listen to any player you can name at thier best. I would rather play with a group of fellow amatuer musicians doing a decent job than listen to any group you can name. Making your own music and being a part of a group making its own music, man, that is as good as it gets in this life. Just MHO.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

I'd like to play like Thile for about five minutes, then I think that would be plenty.

[Scotti Adams]

..I couldnt agree more with all of you...TEAM...Together Everybody Achieves More...

[Michael H Geimer]

"I'd like to play like Thile for about five minutes ..."

Calvin: What did you wish for, Hobbes?

Hobbes: A peanut butter sandwich.

Calvin: What?!? You could wish for anything in the whole universe, and all you could think of was a peanut butter sandwich?!?

Hobbes: Yeah, but I *got* my wish.

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Not to get off the subject of this thread, but here I go anyway; When I heard Thile's album "Leading Off", I heard a lick that really caught my attention. Although I messed with the tune a bit, I never really learned the whole arrangement. But the information I gleaned just from learning that lick took my playing to a new level that I never really expected. You just never know where or when #inspiration will strike. I'd definitely encourage any beginner to keep an ear out for something that will spur them onward, but don't ever think that listening to a masterfull player like Thile won't be of any use to you. You don't have to learn everything he does. Sometimes just a lick or two will do!

[Michael H Geimer]

Of course, CT's the guy that caught my ear and led me to this wonderfull instrument.

Inspirtation is quite different than Idolatry.

[Flowerpot]

"There are a small minority of 'elitist' folks who look down on capos and anything less than mando excellence. [B] I think they miss the hugely important point that we need to encourage players of all levels."

Although I agree with you point, smilinJack, I wonder if we are reading the same board. I read the capo thread, and found a great majority of people who say it has its place, and some who said avoiding it can help you learn new keys and positions. Didn't hear any capo snobbery. And in general, this board is excellent about being patient with newbies and welcoming everybody regardless of knowledge or skill level. I guess I'm at a loss to see where players of all levels are not being encouraged here... and, since most people enjoy things more when they improve, part of the encouragement is in the form of hints and suggestions from those who have more experience. Where's the problem?

[John Flynn]

Flowerpot:

I agree with you that there was no direct snobbery on the "capo thread," however some people on that thread described snobbery that occurs regularly elsewhere. For instance someone quoted Reischman as saying "...people will laugh at you." And that statement is correct. People will laugh. I have seen it in other threads and at jams, big time, and not just re: capos. I have seen it towards inexpensive mandos, non-traditional mandos, beginning players in general, acceptable but different styles, etc. lots of things. I took the the original post in this thread, the one you quoted, as being more of a general comment. I think it is valid and I think the sentiment is valid also: More senior players out there should be more encouraging of beginners. The irony is that by and large, the really great players are. There are a lot of "Wannabe Great" players who are not.

[Igor The Cat]

I would love to be able to play like Thile but without the fame and pressure, which sadly doesnt exesist in this modern world.

[Billy Mack]

Ok. Ill chime in here. Having loved the sound of a mandolin, but not knowing much about them, I decided to give it a try. I went to a local music store in Sacramento and told them I wanted a mando - cheap. The ownder pulled a mandolin out from behind the counter and said it had been busted - but repaired - and I could have it for $75 bucks. I took the mando and signed up for lessons out of their store. After a few weeks, my instructor told me 'man, you need a new mando'. Seems the cheap import I was trying to learn on was rather harsh to the ears. Anyway a few weeks later he showed up at the lesson with a fine custom F style (I dont know the builder) and told me his friend said I could borrow it until I came up with the bucks for a new mandolin of my own. I felt so nervous about borrowing someones instrument I didnt even know, a few weeks later I bought my first quality mandolin and returned the loaner. I since moved away but later learned the person who loaned me the mandolin was a member of a local group 'The All Girl Boys' and my instructor was actually the fiddler with Reichmans 'Jay Birds'. Now, why 2 'pros' would loan a backwoods beginner like me a custom mando, after only knowing 1 of them a few weeks, I have no idea. But I have found 99% of the people in the acoustic/mandolin community to be very supportive of beginners and have never felt intimidated or awkward. (excluding B@#% of course) There may be a few around the cafe or elswhere that seem elitist, but they are only fooling themselves. More senior player may know that most of us cant play like Thile, but it is ok to encourage and help someone to try and do so if they have those aspirations.

With regard to playing like Thile... #If I were to really dream, it would be that someday there would be a thread where people are discussing wanting to play like Tim.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Another one of my inspirational stylists: Tim O'Brien

[Michael H Geimer]

Don't get me wrong, I love TOB's music.

But, wasn't WSM inspired by family, specically his uncle who was a travelling fiddler? (Am I getting the story straight? I haven't even had a sip of this coffee yet)

That's the sort of example that supports what I was driving at above. We seem to always look for inpiration in people we do not know, and who's heights of recognition we will likely never acheive. But, I believe the best Heores are people you know, and who can mentor you in some fashion, big or small.

True life Heroes will never show you how to be just like them, instead they teach you how to grow into your own shoes.

I just want to play like me.

[dixiecreek]

Of course, CT's the guy that caught my ear and led me to this wonderfull instrument.

Inspirtation is quite different than Idolatry.
Me too! I saw my first Nickel Creek concert in September of 2003, and was playing mando by October! haha... and I've been told by more advanced players that I'm doing well considering I've only played 6 months, so I'm happy, dern it!

also, another AMEN! to the person who said "Making your own music and being a part of a group making its own music, man, that is as good as it gets in this life. Just MHO. " -- I defintely agree! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Hubert Angaiak]

Its good to hear all these comments. My issue is I bought a very nice mandolin by one of the top makers and this was before the prices is what they are today. I bascially got it because I was tired of looking and went for an instrument I could grow into and its the best I ever did for myself. Its how some people react to it and the attitude that I am not deserving of this mandolin because of the level of player I am. I guess its what equipment you have determines your level as a player. If you are a professional then you need one of these instruments. I think this alone creates a feeling that I don't need help or tips in becoming a better player. Although I say... "they should get their own if they want one" it bothers me sometimes. Maybe I'll have to get an import so more advanced players will be more willing to help. I am glad there are people who are willing to help.

[ira]

so glad someone brought up this thread. there is a consistent feel if not overt comment re: what and how people should be playing. it is not all of the more experienced players. many are ultra kind and helpful and i am extremely thankful for their assistance. there are however those who should understand that many don't have the time or money to attend big workshops or take extra lessons, or to buy books and tapes. many don't feel the need have the time to learn music theory or read notation, or learn to play in every key. some just want to play some tunes on their little axe and have some fun.
please more experienced and more professional folk, help the rest of us out with your knowledge and understanding by answering our questions and providing insight to comments and certainly put forth your views. however, please listen to where the person is at or where they want to go with the instrument when you give your response.

we are all here because we love the mando.

peace,

ira

[smilnJackB]

we are all here because we love the mando.

peace,

ira-----
Well said, Ira! My main point in starting this post is that we should encourage and teach players and would be players - and not allow ourselves to think we are too good. Most of us on this great site are glad to help.
I started playing late in life (circa 50) and I am ever thankful to the guy that taught me. He made it simple and had me stick to songs in one key until I got semi competent. He helped make it 'doable' and fun.
I have returned that favor by getting 5 mando players and 3 guitar players and one harmonica player off to good starts. Playing and singing is a great gift to receive and to give!
Jack

[harwilli55]

I agree with you SmilingJack and I agree with most of the comments.

I will say this, personalities are personalities. Those people who are humble, accepting, and warm in their everyday life are humble, accepting, and warm with all they do.

Most of us who are just beginning our learning, as I am, are drawn most to those who reach back personally and take time and interest in our questions. And there are an awful lot of those people in this forum. Go to other forums and the difference will smack you in the face.

I can only hope that one of these many years from now, that I can be as knowledgeable, supportive, and accepting as I have found the majority of posters here.

Harlan

[Jaded]

I've had the opportunity to experience the "snobbery" on both ends of the spectrum. My first mandolin was a Breedlove Quartz. There were some people who were really impressed with the tone and liked the kinda different nature of it. There were some people who snickered at it and insisted it wasn't a proper Bluegrass mandolin.

My current mandolin is a Gibson F5G. Most of the people who were supportive of the Breedlove were happy for me to have a mandolin I really loved. Many of the people who snickered at my Breedlove snickered about how I was being presumptious to buy a mandolin that many "better" players could not afford. One such person, when I was asking for playing tips even said "maybe you should have bought a $500 mandolin and $1500 worth of lessons."

Overall, most of the people I have encountered have been incredibly supportive, helpful and encouraging. The few who have been hurtful...I feel sorry for.

[jbrwky]

Ah, yes, the Green-Eyed Monster. "with eyes aflame, came whiffling through the Tulgey Wood and burbled as it came". My Grandmother always advised not to talk about money, religion, or politics. Jealousy must be the worst destroyer of friendship and happiness.
"All life is sorrowful.
Sorrow is caused by desire.
One should joyfully participate in the sorrows of life."

[rhetoric]

First of all, while I have met a few snobs, MOST of the musicians I've met are nothing but encouraging.

But snobbery is not a mando or even a music exclusive malady. I have some other hobby-like interests, shooting sports and tandem biking and both suffer from equipment arrogance. People may not say anything, but I've seen "the look" (you know, they kind of look like they think they smell dog poop). Carry a pump shotgun to the trap range or ride anything but a custom tandem and it won't matter if you're busting more clays or blowing by the twinkies (tandem couples tend to dress alike), you get scowled at. For that matter, it's a classism that's universally pervasive -- the rich look down on the poor! If you are feeling pretty special about your Rigel, just remember that someone with a $17K mando is looking down on you and someone with a violin is looking down on that person for playing "folk" music and someone with a Stratavarius is looking down on that guy and someone with a collection of fine instruments is looking down...etc.

But most of the snobbery is well meaning. If you ask about a particular mando on these boards and almost everytime someone suggests something a little more expensive -- but that's because veterens can appreciate subtle differences in form and function. And they want us to enjoy a fine mandolin as much as they do.

But a word to veterens... Remember that it's a hobby for most of us and you grow into hobbies. Learning is a process and if you leap ahead of your ability or knowledge, you shortchange the fun of learning. I'll probably spend more money in the long run by trading up all the time, but it's a process tied to learning. I just ordered a Kentucky 350S because I played a Fender, a Rigel, an Eastman, and a Gibson at the shop and realized that the fretboard on my old bowlback is REALLY small and difficult to play. Should I have gotten a Rigel, Eastman, or Gibson? Perhaps, but at this point in my "career" I can't, quite frankly, hear much of a difference between a Rigel, Eastman, or Gibson. I'm sure once I start getting better and once I start going to more jams, I'll begin to notice other differences and I'll see the need to graduate. But I think that's half the fun!

For every mandolin player that got discouraged and quit because the Kay or Johnson sounded tinny, I'll bet there are two mandolin players who bought high end stuff and quit because they rushed into something. You're not really a collector if you go out and buy your entire collection in one day, are you?

The irony (and somebody hinted at this in an earlier post with mandos) is that if you, as a newbie, show up at the hunting camp with gazillions of dollars of the latest shiney new equipment (gun, camo, 4wheeler, and etc.) you're bound to be scowled at for not earning the right to have good stuff.

There is another "myth" we laud, though. The golfer who goes to the course with ratty old clubs and crushes the ball or the hunter who still shoots grandpas old pump and fills the freezer every year or the Willie Nelson who plays a a relic. I'm going to guess that my Chinese Kentucky 350 will not be the obstacle that keeps me from becoming a good mandolin player -- I'm guessing the main obstacle will be my motivation to practice!

Long post from a newbie! Sorry!

[sailaway]

Well, I guess this thread proves that our mando-world is like the real world. When you are fortunate, you run into kind, caring people who take the time to tab out a song, show you a lick, or take you aside at a jam to show you a weird chord pattern. When you are unlucky, you run into the mandosnobs who project that air of total selfish importance as they look down the necks of their expensive mandos and publically criticize your playing and your instrument. But then you'll find a jam full of wonderful people who encourage every beginner and take them aside to really help their music education . keep looking for that Jam ! -- and if you are in Western Pa., look up Western Pennsylvania Bluegrass Association...:)

[OdnamNool]

But, I believe the best Heores are people you know, and who can mentor you in some fashion, big or small.

True life Heroes will never show you how to be just like them, instead they teach you how to grow into your own shoes.

I just want to play like me.
Thank you, Benig.

I am so greatful and thankful to know many true-life heros... Your words are wise...

And guess what? (I know you're not shocked...) I've never heard any Chris Thile...don't know jack about him... But I'll bet he's an incredible, talented mandolin player...from what I've read here...

What was my point? Hmmmmm. Probably that I appreciate your views that whatever you play, as long as yer playin'... is good... Thanks.

[levin4now]

I may not ever plays as well as Sam Bush and that's ok (even though it would be great). I would like to play mandolin such that I can make up and play breaks at moderate speed in a jam session or in other scenarios, and not always be excusing myself as a beginner - even 20 years from now.

[AmosMoses]

One such person, when I was asking for playing tips even said "maybe you should have bought a $500 mandolin and $1500 worth of lessons."

That's a crappy thing for someone to say to anyone. As a bit of self-depracating humor though it's kind of funny. I think I'll use that when I get my F5.

[Bob DeVellis]

There are secure, generous, talented people in all walks of life and there are also mean-spirited jackasses in every walk of life. Mandolin players are no exception. I think the culture here at the cafe has more than its share of the former and relatively few of the latter. Some people see kindness as a form of weakness and cruel sarcasm as a badge of honor. Most of us outgrow that style around the time we finish the 7th grade and many never had it to start with. But some people continue to think putting others down makes them better. Those are typically not the happiest folks on the planet. Occasionally, ribbing is well-intended and a sort of bonding experience but when directed at a stranger, it's just nasty.

A friend of mine who's a fiddler was in a pub in Ireland, admiring the local musicians' talent. He mentioned that he was just beginning to learn the fiddle but that he'd listened for hours on end to recordings of fine fiddlers. He said that the players there could hold their own with the best, in his opinion. They asked him to scratch out a tune, which he did and they were very encouraging, despite his, then, beginner status. They emphasized that the essence of music was feeling not technical proficiency and said that he had the feeling. A bit later, some of them sang songs from the local tradition. They asked him for an American song. He explained that he didn't sing well, but they encouraged him to give it a go. When he finished, one guy said, "And you said yo couldn't sing well! Nonsense! You can't sing at all!" By that point, my buddy recognized this as a friendly jibe and, actually, a sign of acceptance. He laughed along with the rest at the comment. But if they'd said that at the beginning of the night about his fiddling, he'd have been crushed.

[8ch(pl)]

I can play in almost any major key without a Capo, do some minor as well. I have learned a lot of chords over the years. A friend of mine asked to borrow my instrument and did some marvelous stuff, fiddle tunes etc. He makes my playing look sick. He used his guitar capo for some of them.

I tease him by saying "Jim put a capo on my mandolin....ugh!". he is a great guy and a wonderful musician.

Most of what I do is folk and country and I accompany my own voice with mandolin and some tenor banjo. I have never bothered with a capo. Jim plays 5 string, tenor banjo, guitar fiddle, mandolin and who knows what else, and plays them all well. So he uses a capo.

[OzArkie]

# #I remember how thrilled I was to learn the 2 finger G,C & D chords and be able to play simple songs. # Some players never advance much from that...

This could be a naive question..., but is there a list somewhere of songs that only need those three simple (or should I say "manageable")chords?

[tomlouky]

My late Mother, who knew how much I enjoy playing, made me promise several years ago to use some of her estate and buy myself a good mandolin. #After settling her estate last month, I followed her instructions and bought a quality instrument. #I show up at the local jam last week was promptly told, "Now you'll really have to learn to play." # Funny. #I thought I was learning http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Billy Mack]

Amen, Tom. I bet that is one fine sounding mandolin. I would love to hear you play it.

[Kelly_guy]

Hmmm....I think the Cafe is quite accepting of beginners, don't get me wrong. But the "beginner's project" of learning a new song is REALLY intimidating, when people who seem to have been playing for years and years are also participating. And the choice of songs is way past beginner level. Sally Goodin was just crazy. And I showed the "intermediate" arrangement of Cherokee Shuffle to my instructor, and he said that's just way beyond beginner level. Yeah, it says "intermediate", but there wasn't a "beginner" arrangement available...

As for local musicians--at the local Monday jam in Madison, people are quite friendly, but it isn't a beginner's jam. There just isn't a beginner's jam anywhere around this area. Sitting at home and practicing and playing by myself just isn't the same as playing with other people.

MandoJohnny put it well, there are just too many people in the bluegrass scene that will mock you for playing the wrong type of mandolin. When I get my Gibson A-12 Lumpy back from the shop, I'm going to be hesitant to ever take it to a jam and play it--people will just laugh at the thing. And I get weird looks for playing a Martin A-style mandolin already.

I like the sentiment of the thread, encouraging all levels of players. The Cafe is a great place!

[Bluegrasstjej]

What a good and important thread!!!!
I must say though that I haven't met much snobbery among mandolin pickers, (but a whole lot among fiddle players).

Kelly, I agree with you about the songs on the project. I just love the project, it has given me back my motivation because it gives me a goal, something to practice for (I have no band or jams or even people to play with). But I agree about the songs, especially Sally Goodin, the version they picked was REALLY advanced. I'm on intermediate level and I didn't learned it (don't know if I would have if I had tried, I didn't have the time). The same with Cherokee shuffle even if it was a little easier than Sally was. I've heard most of these standard tunes so I just played the versions I had heard. It will be interesting to see how I will succeed with Cattle in the cane. I have never heard that one before.
I always look at Co-Mando for all versions of the tunes. I have a very basic version of Cherokee shuffle, but I think I've found it elsewhere.
Anyway, I don't really like the idea of the project not being a beginner project anymore, even if I enjoy listening to the pros...Good pickers always have ways to play and make progress, they usually have bands and jams and stuff which beginners usually don't have until later. But well, I won't let that put me down. I try not to compare myself with others, and just play and have fun. Recording yourself is good, you learn lots from that.

And here we go again - the mandolin type discussion. I haven't experienced it in real life (more than that a friend didn't want to buy a very nice lute because she didn't think she played well enough) but it seems common that people really think that you should "deserve" a good instrument by being able to play very well.
I think it's up to everyone to decide what mandolin they want to play, no matter what level they play. The whole discussion is just ridiculous, and especially people who say things like anyone mentioned "you should have spent those money on lessons instead". That guy perhaps didn't even want to take lessons.

[duuuude]

"maybe you should have bought a $500 mandolin and $1500 worth of lessons."
Folks like that give ther other 99.9% of us a bad name, shoulda stomped his foot & told him maybe he shoulda bought steel toed shoes.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Everybody has to start somewhere, and it's usually those that forgot where they came from that end up with their nose in the air. Most acoustic folk I run into are more than happy to help one another with whatever, gotta perpetuate the species y'know.

Me, I'm just happy to play better than Grisman, Daryl Grisman down the street, he don't play mando.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[tomlouky]

With me it's all about the music and the fellowship. I will go out of my way to welcome newcomers and include them. Yes, I am human and sometimes get miffed at the dobro player who loudly plays out of key (Way out of key!), but I'd never say a word. I just move where he's not in my ear. He's enjoying the music regardless of his ability and deserves to have as much fun as I do.

[Bluegrasstjej]

I think this whole thread shows that there are lots of nice, friendly and encouraging mandolin pickers out there.

[jbrwky]

Kelly dude I'll play with you, man. I am extremely intermediate. (I've been playing too long to be a beginner, so they forced me into the next division)I didn't get Sally Goodin' either although I like the tune. Just can't seem to end a phrase on an up stroke. Don't ya hate that? So just come to Switzerland and let's pick a slow Arkansas Traveler that'll have 'em singing "I caught myself a baby bumble bee, won't my mother be so proud of me?" We can also lay down a G-C-G-D, G-C-G-D chord thing and then drop in a "in the jungle, etc. It's all about having fun.

[chirorehab]

My name is Eric and I am a beginner. I love the Mandolin Project. It has helped my playing enormously. While the songs are tough, I have spent a lot of time working on them - a month to be exact!

I have received great support from other project members. They are very encouraging.

Yes, there are some people who have posted incredibly fast versions of the song. But you know what, I enjoy those versions. Hopefully one day I will be able to play half as fast as them!

I have learned about timing and recording and backup playing. In fact, my wife, who always gives me a hard time about my timing, was very impressed with my version of cherokee shuffle!

If you think the versions are too hard, I am sure that someone can find you an easier version. Everyone involved is all about helping. The project is one place that you can go for help and not worry about anything. I can guarantee that!

If I can do it, anyone can!

Lots of encouragement, lots of fun!

Best of luck,

Eric