The F Premium?

[dane]

Here's a question I've been curious about for some time and am hoping some of the luthiers here can suggest an answer.

It's clear that a good deal more luthier time and effort goes into building an F-style mandolin versus an A-style, and this is why, everything else equal (i.e., luthier, wood and other materials, etc.), an F will sell at a signficant premium over an A. What I've often wondered is how that F price premium compares to the incremental work involved -- i.e., if you were to work out how much a luthier is compensated in $/hour terms for building an A, does the F price premium divided by the extra hours involved work out to about the same $/hour as for the A, or is a luthier over- or under-compensated for the extra time and expense in building an F?

[crawdad]

Well, I don't know how to answer. The F5 is a more complicated build. The rim, binding and carving are much more involved than an A style. I think this is generally reflected in the price difference between an A and an F model for most builders. What is interesting to me is that the cosmetics don't make an F a better sounding mandolin--it is looks, or cosmetic aesthetics that one pays the extra for. Mandolins don't sound better because of the scroll or the points or the fancy bindings. That is visual appeal stuff, and I love the look of a well made F5 as much as anybody, but a well made A can sound just a good. The choice is between the looks. Both an A5 and an F5 can sound just as good. Its what do you want to be looking at and what do you want an audience to perceive. The F5 is the bluegrass standard, but we all know its the player who makes the music and an A5 can deliver the goods just as well.

I would suspect that the F5 and the added hours to build one probably equates to the relative hourly rate to build an A model. Carving the scroll, making the rim, doing all the extra binding--those are all labor intensive extras that go with making an F5. Thats why they cost more. Prettier, yes. Better sounding? Na! Are the F5's cooler looking? You bet.

A style XxY=$$

F style = Priceless http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[sunburst]

There is a lot of work in a scroll. That is obvious. I'm not sure that all non-luthiers realize just how much extra work tho.

Besides the extra work of the scroll itself, that thing being there greatly increases the time spent on bindings, sanding and finishing. It sticks up in your way when doing the neck set, and it complicates fret work just by being there in the way.

I don't yet have good time studies on mandolins because of the state of flux that my whole opperation is in, but I will someday, and then I'll know what the actual time differential is between F and A.

I suspect that there may be a premium paid for a scroll beyond $ per hour tho, because of the demands of "scroll envy".

[Tom C]

"It sticks up in your way when doing the neck set, and it complicates fret work just by being there in the way."
- That's it. When I build my first, I will put the scroll on the bottom http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[JeffS]

That's it. When I build my first, I will put the scroll on the bottom

I'm going to make an A style and just Photoshop a scroll on it when I post the picture. Maybe I'll print it out and laminate it on to some MDF and attach it to the body with some two sided tape.

[Lawrence]

>...Are the F5's cooler looking? You bet.
Okay, somebody needs to stick up for the underdog here! ;-) I think A's are far cooler looking than F's! A's are elegant, their form follows their function, they have the beauty of symmetry. F's are tarted up, gaudy, over done hussies compaired to the understated self confidence and lovely practicality of A's. F's are overpriced sellouts to fashion, A's are honest-to-gawd instruments. A's rock! F's mince.

So there!

-Lawrence

[JeffS]

Yep, just think what things would be like if Bill Monroe had preferred an A style with an oval hole. Bluegrass would sound much better.

[sunburst]

Maybe I'll print it out and laminate it on to some MDF and attach it to the body with some two sided tape.
....psssssssst.....(velcro!).....

[JeffS]

Good call on the velcro. The two sided sticky tape wouldn't hold up well in the trunk of the car during the summer.

[jim simpson]

JeffS,
You stole my idea! Actually I was going to suggest that a builder could just offer a scroll and point that could be attached to their A-models as a stick on option. That way you could buy an A-model now and buy-up later by adding the scroll and point!
I remember being smitten in my early teens (the 60's man) when I saw a local bluegrasser playing an old Gibson F-5. I couldn't believe how beautiful it's shape looked. I have owned several A's and several F-5's. The A model does evoke it's own beauty but not quite the same way as the F-5 to my eyes.

[neal]

My first love had red hair. My last love (finally) has red hair. Jim, you were imprinted at a young age, can't change it, nothing you can do about it. Oh sure, you can flirt with the a's, maybe keep one on the side as a mistress, lust after one you see on the fly, but you always go back to the redhead.

At the risk of hijacking a thread...

Over the year plus that I've been reading the cafe the scroll has always been dismissed as a "strap holder". #The general arguement is that the volume of the soundbox is the same for an A and an F. #However, since the scroll is partially hollow, it adds a little volume and changes the shape of the soundbox. #From a builder's perspective, why doesn't this affect the sound?

I've posted this in other (non-builder) threads and frequently get a response that the scroll is just a solid block. #This link is to a photo on frets.com (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Features/GibsonMills/MandolinViews/mandomills03.jpg) that refutes that point.

[John Flynn]

I am no expert, I am just adding two cents: Here is a link to a study entitled, "Acoustics of Mandolins." If you look at the interferometry pictures, it would seem that the major vibrations on the top don't extend into the scroll area. They are almost all in the lower bout. So the scroll might make some difference, but it would seem not that much.
http://www.acoustics.org/press/139th/cohen.htm

[John Zimm]

As old Captain Ahab said, justifying his hunt for Moby Dick, "What is best let
alone, that accursed thing is not always what least allures." I know I was hit with a bad case of scroll envy, while now I have a-style envy. The scroll on a nicely made mandolin is a really beautiful thing and will always allure mandolin players, which I think is a good thing. If we were only concerned about function we would be machines-our love of the beauty of a good scroll makes us more human. "A thing of beauty is a joy forever."

-John.

[Jim Rowland]

Never underestimate the importance of eye appeal. Ask any accomplished Chef or car salesman.

Personally,I love to complicate my alignment problems by carving the scroll before assembly. I can't help noticing that the finished top with scroll sort of automatically produces a bass side tap tone about a half step lower than the treble side tap tone. This is before any additional tweak carving is done. Yes, the scroll is about eighty per cent solid wood. Am I nuts?

[Chris Baird]

As far as I know no one has ever claimed to be able to identify a mandolin shape by ear alone. #Many have expressed interest in an A versus F blindfold test. #It probably hasn't happened because most people know it would be a waste of time. #If there is a difference in the sound produced between an A and an F it doesn't matter because no one can hear it. The F-style is an asthetic add on that may or may not be worth the price, it all depends on you and how you apprecieate asthetic pleasures. #The timbre of an instrument is just as much a product of the brain and body as it is vibrational disturbances in air. #That means that if you believe you have a better mandolin because it looks better that could very well make it sound better(to you).

[John Flynn]

Yep, just think what things would be like if Bill Monroe had preferred an A style with an oval hole. #Bluegrass would sound much better.
The music is in the musician, not the instrument. If Bill had chosen another mando, his instrumentals might have sounded slightly different, but it would have still sounded great and it would have still been bluegrass. The hardware is the least important part of what makes music great.

[John Soper]

And this discussion is just getting into the aesthetics of the Gibson F vs A profile. What about all the other wonderful variations: the Monteleon scroll, the two pointers, those Bussman creations of frolic & whimsy, the Star mandolin, flat vs bent vs carved A's, the flying V's... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ?

Room in this tent for all different shapes & sizes...

[dane]

Any chance of an informed luthier responding to my original question?

Having played lots of A's and F's in my time, there is no question in my mind that, other things (luthier, wood, materials) equal, there will be little discernible acoustic difference between an A and an F-style mandolin. There is also no question that building an F-style involves considerably more time and effort than building an A-style. My question remains: are luthiers disproportionately compensated for that extra time and effort, in the form of a disproportionate price premium for an F-style versus an A-style? Typical F-styles (Collings, Old Wave) cost twice as much as an equivalent A-styles by the same luthiers -- does that scroll really double the time & effort involved in building the F?

[sunburst]

Typical F-styles (Collings, Old Wave) cost twice as much as an equivalent A-styles by the same luthiers -- does that scroll really double the time & effort involved in building the F?
Roughly.

As I posted earlier, I don't have good time studies yet, but I've always speculated that I was spending about twice as much time on an F than on an A.

I suppose that's sort of a simi-informed answere, but it isn't just the scroll. you also have to take into consideration such things as:
-4 internal blocks to cut out and shape as opposed to two
-2 corner protectors
-4 binding miters at points
-2 binding miters at the corner of the lower body point
-2 binding miters at the scroll button
-fancier inlays (usually)
-more complicated peghead shape (usually) with 2 more scrolls, BTW
-binding miters at the peghead scrolls (usually)

and probably some other things I haven't thought of. All relatively small stuff, but it adds up.

[Jim Rowland]

Yes. Do you want it or not?