Band pa's 2 - what are you using and what $?

[steve V. johnson]

In the other thread, we got waaaay off the topic of what it costs to put together a PA for a band (presumably an acoustic &/or mando-centric one), and while there's a good time in that thread and good infos, I'd like to get back to the root.

Tell us about the small, simple and inexpensive setups ups you have and what you love &/or hate about 'em? There's a lot for us to learn from how y'all have done this stuff.

I've already mentioned the system I use elsewhere. It's a little bulky and heavy, and it wasn't "cheap" but it's stuff I know well (I'm usually mixing from the stage) and it will take care of my bands and it's big enough to hire out for some other events, too. And I was flush at the time... <GG> I know there are smaller systems that cost less and do well for acoustic players...

Tell us about yours?

Thanks!

stv

[mando.player]

I've used the Soundcraft GIGRAC (http://www.soundcraft.com/product_sheet.asp?product_id=128)in the past with pretty good success. If 8 inputs will do it for you, it's a nice setup.

[mandopete]

(for the moment)

4-piece bluegrass band with guitar, mandolin, banjo & bass, all sing:

Behringer MX1604A 12-channel Mixer (w/2 MAudio Buddy 2 channel preamps)
2 JBL 15" EON's
3 Shure SM-57's mic's for guitar, mandolin & banjo
1 Audio Technica AT35 mic for bass (clips on, not a wrap)
2 Shure Beta 58A's for vocals
2 Audix OM5's for vocals
2 Shure wireless in-ear monitor systems

This thing is a kludge that has been built over time and it's about to get upgraded. #Initially I was using with a single AT4033 mic in a bluegrass setting, but we've since gone back to multi mic's. #In order to do that I had to buy 2 2-channel audio buddies to get the additional 4 XLR inputs needed for the 8 dynamic mics. #In hindsight that's when I should have upgraded to a better mixer (Mackie VLZ 1642).

This thing is a real mass of wires and that's really the thing I dislike the most. #Next to that I really have no EQ except what's on the board for each channel. #The next item in the upgrade will be a Sabine FBX2400 feedback eliminator. #I don't believe that I'm going to need anything else in way of EQ.

Regardless of what others here think, I like the SM-57's for the instruments. #They have been good "generalist" type mic's and extremely rugged. #I still have two that I purchased when I was in high school, almost 30 years ago! #I'm not crazy about the Beta 58A's and that's why I'm mixing in the Audix mics - so far, so good.

Two of the four of us are using in-ear monitors and each has a separate mix. #The new board will provide 4 available aux sends and we may all end up with separate mixes. #I dunno, seems like overkill to me, but the others swear by it.

So I think the things I hate about the current set up are going to get replaced in pretty short order and then I can find some new things to hate.

What do I love about it? #I love the JBL's. #Those will be staying, although they sometimes seem too big for small club settings.

# # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[EdSherry]

My main setup is a Mackie 1604 VLZ Pro into a Mackie M1200 power amp into a Bose EQ into two pairs of old Bose 800s mounted on tripod stands. #Usual mikes are the industry-standard SM57s and SM58s, though I use a large-diaphragm AT 4033 relatively frequently for vocals, as well as some small-diaphragm Oktavia MK019 (?) condensers for instruments. #I use 2-4 HotSpot monitors (powered by an old Crown amp) mounted on mike stands when I run monitors. #

Not the newest, but I've had most of it for years (I love it when things are paid for!) and I know how to tweak it for our sound.

If I were starting fresh I would go with some of the new powered speakers (Mackie or JBL Eons).

I recently picked up a Mackie 408 (I think that's the model number) powered mixer that I like a lot for smaller gigs.

If you're looking for fair-to-middling quality mikes (perfectly useable -- I've done sound for festivals with them!) on a budget, try the Nady SP-5s from Musician's Friend (NFI): #three mikes for $20 (no joke). #

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product....=277174 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Nady-SP5-Mic-SpecialBuy-1-Get-2-Free?sku=277174)

[mandroid]

Soundcraft said they designed their Gigrack to be resistant to handling that is involved in one night gigs .
like to hear about long term users experience..

I got an Etek Notemixer it is very compact, all the slider controls in the lid where if it were an early notebook computer the screen would be, but as it turned out the heatsink shifts around and the solder connecting the power transistors to the rest of the circuit lose connection after a while, [a bit of careful soldering at those points fixed that, now its not so compact as I pack into a thickly padded much larger bag.

[Morgan Monroe Guy]

My band is a Celtic fusion group and varies between 4 & 5 pieces with guitar, Roland E-drums, Electric Bass, assorted woodwinds and Acoustic Guitar (with banjo and mandolin as a 5 )I use:

1 Behringer Eurorack 2004A
1 Sennheiser EW335G2 wireless handheld
1 Sennheiser EW352G2 wireless headset
1 Sennheiser EW372G2 wireless instrument
2 JTS NX8 Vocal mics
1 Sabine FBX2400
1 Shure Auxpander
2 Nady in ear stereo monitors of uncertain heritage http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
4 Pair Ultimate Ear Super.fi 3 to go with above
2 SHS Airfoil SP12 - FOH
2 SHs Airfoil SP10 - Bass Monitor and E-Drum Amp

This last part is very important to my peace of mind with the system and is the part that I see neglected most in systems like this.

I do not compromise on Cables and use only Road Hog by Rapco Cables. #Any cable with a good Neutrik XLR end will do the job, I have just found these to be bullet proof. #The same goes for any instrument cables on my stage they all have the Neutrik NP2C connectors on the end. #I have never had one of these cables fail and having worked ten years doing the audio tech at this company I can attest that 95% of the issues you run into with PA are cable related.

That only issue that I have run into with this system is the cable on the ME-3 headset. It has failed on me twice and if I could replace it with a NP2C quality locking stereo mini jack, it would be bullet proof as well. (if I treated it a bit more gently it might help as well http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif)

The only component that I don't like in this system is the Nady in ear system. I intend to replace it with the PSM-400 Shure system that I had stolen from me last year.

The Nady is just 2 cheaply made. #All of the battery boxes loosened to the point that we had to shim them almost immediately and I have had a clip break. In addition the limiting that come with them is almost not useable. I have bought an EQ to use with them to see if I can sort out some fidelity issues with out breaking the bank.

With Racks and Cables, etc... I have about $5000 in this system and the PSM-400 will ad about $2500

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Charlie,

I've looked at the GigRac a lot, but never seen/heard one in person. Do you have the 300, 600 or the 1000, and what else do you use with it? You like it, eh?

Do you use the effects a lot? Are there things you -don't- like about it?

Thanks,

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Hey MandoPete,

You say that the JBL Eon 15s seem too large for small club settings... Do you mean just too physically big, taking up too much space in the room, or too loud, or...?

Thanks,

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Ed,

Is your Bose EQ a graphic or some other configuration? It's kinda nice to have an eq just before the mains... That's what I like about some of the one-box, mixer/poweramp/fx/EQs mixers, those graphics that go to monitors or mains.

I don't know the model number, but I have some Nady cheapo MusFriend dynamic mics (with an on/off switch right on the mic) that I use when I have to do PA for kid bands who abuse stuff, for politicians (let 'em all sound terrible <GGG>) or on rainy days. They work. <GG>

Thanks,

stv

[steve V. johnson]

Mandroid,

Tell us about the rest of the stuff you use with the Etek Notemixer?

I've seen ads for that and it sure looks cool, and -small-! Nice! But I've never seen one in person.

How many inputs do you use with it? And all... ?

Thanks!

stv

[mandopete]

You say that the JBL Eon 15s seem too large for small club settings... Do you mean just too physically big, taking up too much space in the room, or too loud, or...?
I mean physically too large. To me there's no such thing as too loud if you have a volume control <grins>.

[EdSherry]

Steve -- the Boses require their own specialized equalization to sound right. #Bose made a separate box "tweaked" for the speakers. #Finding a used one is a pain (I've picked up two over the years).

I know people who use 1/3 octave graphic equalizers in lieu of the Bose EQ. #It takes a bit of effort to get the curve right, but once you do, I'm sure it would be more versatile than the non-adjustable "plug and play" Bose EQ.

[mando.player]

My father in law's band uses the GigRac 300 with a set of PA speakers I had made for him. #For the life of me I can't remember the company that made them. #Anyhow, they were a steal and they sound pretty good.

I wish I they had bought the 600. #It's got two amps in it so you can run a set of monitors. #The 300 can do monitors, but you have to supply the amp. #They use Shure 57/58 for instruments and vocals.

I love the fact that it's a self contained unit. #We figured out what each member's gain settings were and I made a little chart for them. #They run the whole deal themselves. #It sounds good, better than the old Peavy powered mixer they used to use. #Beyond 8 mics, you can run a separate mixer into the line it. #When I sit in them on bass, I just use my amp.

They got it because it was compact and integrated. #The fact that it sounds pretty good was bonus http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #Guitar Center sells them and has a pretty liberal return policy. #If you've got mics and speakers, you can try one out for 30 days.

Almost forgot. No effects are used. I can't think of anything bad to say about it. I guess that's good ;)

[steve V. johnson]

Right, Pete! LOL!! There are places where we play where I -never- want to hear the proprietor ask us to turn down... they are rooms that are good for folks who really want to listen, so they're pretty valuable to me.

Thanks, Charlie!

Ed, a club here in Bloomington has a Bose system that has two long speakers with 4" speakers and some little tweeter domes and a subwoofer, and it has a 1-rack-unit 'brain' that includes EQ and time alignments from a microprocessor of some sort.
The system was originally to have two more speakers but they never showed up. The guy who put it in, an old Nashville (TN)
producer and guitar player, had it tweaked so very beautifully that every musical detail was there and there was no competition with normal conversation levels. Since he moved on it doesn't sound as good, but it's still pretty darn good.

It sure doesn't look like those great stacks of speakers that everyone thinks of as a pa system. I like that...

Thanks, all,

stv

[Jim Gallaher]

Here's my rig for a four-piece (sometimes five-piece) bluegrass band:

Amplifiers/Speakers
- (2) Peavey PR15P Neo Powered Speakers (270 Watts each) @ $400 each = $800
Mixer
- Passive Mackie DFX12 @ $250
Microphones
- Vocals: Audio-Technica 3035 Condenser @ $120
- Instruments: (2) AT-3031 Condensers @ $80 each (ebay) = $160
- Instruments: (1) AT-PRO37 Condenser @ $80 each (ebay) = $ 80
- Instruments: (1) old Peavey dynamic mic - no cost
Speaker Stands
- Pair @ $100 = $100
Cables & Cords
- Total = $150

Total Investment: $1,660

No monitors -- we've played auditoriums seating 400, outdoor park venues, small clubs -- still haven't needed them. We just stand in a semi-circle to hear each other.

[EdSherry]

Steve -- It sounds like the system you're referring to uses the Bose 402 speakers. #They're smaller than the 802s (or the older 800s that I have), with four 4" speakers (rather than the 8 speakers in the 800s/802s). #The "1 rack unit" EQ that you refer to is the Bose EQ I mentioned. #Bose does make a subwoofer, but I've never owned one (or felt I needed one for the type of music I perform).

[steve V. johnson]

Hi Ed,
Yeah, I'm sure that's it. There aren't any front panel controls on the Boze box, unless they're behind a handsome plastic door. The subwoofer in this club is right by the mix position and not at all well-integrated into the room.
It rattles stuff on the nearby tables and really muddys the sound for the patrons within fifteen feet, which is most of the tables in that part of the room. Too bad, there's probably somewhere in the room where it would work better.
(I unplug it when I'm mixing there, or when one of my bands is playing there.)

Hey Jim, thanks for the description. I wish my folks had the courage to work without monitors... With the Irish band, we do sometimes, or I just leave 'em way low or off, and that works well. But with the Lopers, we need 'em, so far...

Thanks,

stv