phoenix neoclassical?

[Klaus Wutscher]

Hi all,

I´m toying with the idea of buying another mando. I have a good instrument for bluegrass/old time that has that woody sound. Now I may be in the market for something different for ...well, anything else (classical, jazz, celtic, choro...)and the Phoenix neoclassical (as well as the rigel brand)has caught my attention. Any players out there? How would you describe the tone, compared to the loar- style tone? Any other instruments that may fit the bill I´m not aware of?

thanks
klaus

[evanreilly]

I own two Phoenix mandolins, both "Bluegrass" models; one from 1995 and one from 2002.
Rather than going into the tonal differences, I'd first describe a few other differences between these mandolins and a 'loar-style', namely a traditional F-5.
Both of these instruments have carbon fiber truss rods; no adjustable rods. This reduces overall weight. Both have carbon fiber - spruce laminated tone bars. Rolfe Gerhardt makes some very thin but very stiff tonebars this way.
The overall lightness of the instruments is what first strikes most players, then the more subtle tonal qualities are pursued.
My newer Phoenix has a compound radiused fingerboard; this one feature makes it much more 'playable' than a Loar-style instrument with a flat board, IMHO.
I own two Gibson mandolins as well and give them equal play-time. But the Phoenix is not an F-5 copy, by any stretch.

[Lee]

I posted this elsewhere; it's applicable here too.
Heeeheee; aren't {Phoenix} amazing. Rolfe builds them completely unlike any other mandolin. I have a Deluxe, the model with the fretboard inlay. It's like a NeoClassical but built to take heavier strings. Oh my, it tingles my spine when I play it. So fast, so sweet. In a way it's almost too crystaline so I put on TI strings to add some "wood" and they worked wonders. I would also like to try GHS bronze&silk strings too. Sure, my Collings MT2 and BRW are great. But the Phoenix is a completely different universe unto itself. I'm impressed most with the sensitivity. Real light pick actions get great string response. And one time I was re-stringing and across the street someone slammed their car door shut and I could feel the sypathetic vibrations in the Phoenix. Absolutely amazing. I haven't tried the Bluegrass model or the Neo. I'm not a fan of narrow frets but I would not change the Phoenix. Also, the neck is so precise and well laid out that it plays like a neck that is actually wider than it is. Go ahead and {try} the Phoenix, because there are no alternatives.

[Jim M.]

You can see a Neoclassical being played at Co-Mando's mandolin of the week:

http://www.co-mando.com/resources/MOTW/

I've played one and thought it was very cool. Great tone. If I didn't own a BRW J16 (hint: check those out too at http://www.brw-instruments.com ), I'd probably buy one.

[otterly2k]

I am not a very experienced mandolin player, but I was in the Mandolin Brothers store on Staten Island a couple of weeks ago and pulled at least 20 different instruments off the wall to play and compare. I was so struck by the unique feel and lovely sound of the Phoenix Neoclassical that I posted on this message board about it...

The lightness of the instrument, and ease of play/sensitivity really come across. In my mind, this is the instrument I'm working towards...
KE

" Sure, my Collings MT2 and BRW are great. But the Phoenix is a completely different universe unto itself"

Well put Lee & I second that.

[Bob A]

For something completely different, you might consider a bowlback. A good one will run several hundred bucks, but the sound is what most people thought a mandolin should sound like, until Gibson came into the field in the teens.

If you're not that adventurous, a good cross between the GIbson style and the earlier instruments is the Lyon & Healy carved top mandolin. They were made in three styles: the ornate Style A, and the gradually less-ornamented B & C. They all exhibit similar tonal character, and have a really beautiful treble, with more bass than a bowlback can provide.

Played next to an oval-hole Gibson, you'd be struck immediately with how inadequate the Gibson upper register sounds, although no one can beat Gibson for that woody tone on the G & D strings. I really like L&H instruments, and if I weren't so attached to my F4 (and all the other mandos I've accumulated over the years) I'd say that they are the ideal compromise instrument. Whenever I play one, I wonder why I bother with anything else. Of course, I tend to feel that way about most of my mandolins, so my judgement is obviously skewed a bit.

I also tend to go toward the old and vintage, feeling as I do that a new instrument involves way too much depreciation, while the old ones can be sold for what I paid for them, if need be. Sadly, I don't seem to want to sell them, so once again I must be kidding myself.

Seriously though, I'm surprised that more folks don't try the old bowlbacks. They can be a lot of instrument for the money.

[otterly2k]

Bob-
I agree with you re: the sound of bowlbacks... I just find them virtually impossible to hold!
KE

[Lee]

Vintage is nice, but the Phoenix attention to build quality and the extreme exactness of the fretboard are in it's own unique parallel universe. A different state of being. Rolfe started from a clean sheet of paper and it shows.

[evanreilly]

Rolfe didn't exactly start the Phoenix line from a clean sheet; he built approximately 150 Unicorn mandolins some time before he built the first Phoenix. Nothing like experience.

[Lee]

I've never seen a Unicorn. Are they traditional A and F styles? I understand he frequently put the fancy fretboard inlay on them, which found it's way onto the Deluxe.

[Klaus Wutscher]

Thanks all for your input. I would be interested how the phoenix sounds next to a rigel; I´ve compared the soundfile and it seems to be they have a similar tone; but I might be wrong cause I never played one of them

thanks
klaus

[evanreilly]

Unicorns are an A-5 style mandolin. I think there were a few F-5 style Unicorns, but the vast majority were A-5 styled. The vine inlay from the Unicorn mandolins made the all-time great fretboard inlay poster; the old 'Frets' magazine poster. I am not sure if the current Deluxe inlay is identical/close to the Unicorn one, which I believe Rolfe had copyrighted.

[PCypert]

From what I've read here the Unicorns were nice mandos but the builder himself says to go for a Phoenix as they represent his better work. Rolfe said he's learned a lot over the years and that knowledge is in the Phoenix's. The Unicorns still look pretty cool.
Paul

[evanreilly]

Several years ago, I contacted Rolfe about obtaining an older Unicron; he told me 'forget it; get a new Phoenix beacurs they are much better'... He is/was right. Experience counts for something.

[MikeB]

I've never played either a Phoenix or a Rigel, but I'm getting a rare chance to spend a week with Rigel's Jethro model next week (long story, not important). I've looked at pictures at the Rigel site and the Jethro is certainly different from their other models. It doesn't have that rounded back that you usually associate with Rigel. In fact, it reminds me more of the L & H asymmetrical two-point. It's a wowzer of an instrument. I'll report later on the sound issue. I'll be comparing it to my Collings F and a friend's Brentrup, among others, so it's gonna have to be GOOD to get my attention...