Skinner auction

[Steve Davis]

I went to the Skinner musical instrument auction yesterday. There were a few mandolins including two old Gibson A models that sold for $600 and $1400, a Gibson mandobass for $2300, and a 1923 Loar with Virzi for $70,500. A Stradivarious violin sold for 1.4 million. The big surprise for me was a butterscotch-colored 1959 Gibson Explorer guitar which went for $611,000!

[Russ Jordan]

what was the condition of the Loar?

[danb]

refinished in lacquer by Monteleone, missing many original parts

[Ray(T)]

I'm not an electric player but I've always been at a loss to undestand why things like Explorers make so much money. Surely the sound of any electric instrument depends heavily upon the amp and effects its used with and not so much on the instrument itself. Wish I'd known about the Strad - I've always fancied learning the fiddle!

[sunburst]

...I've always been at a loss to undestand why things like Explorers make so much money...
Yeah, me too. It's just a block of wood with a neck and electronics, when you think about it.

Here's what I figure:
OK, it's the baby-boomers who are spending all this money on old instruments, right? How many baby-boomers where raised on rock-n-roll, and how many were raised on Bill Monroe?

[Steve Davis]

The guitar hadn't even been owned by anybody famous. Go figure. Musician's Friend sells new Explorers for under $1,100.

[kudzugypsy]

yeah, that is sad when you figure they couldnt even get anyone to pay $500K for Mother Maybelle Carters L5 that basiclly defined country music - and this thing goes for $600K+, but thats NOWHERE near as crazy as the guy who recently bought the Star Trek Enterprise model for $500K...at least you can play the guitar.
i guess the vintage guitar market is still pretty strong with a sale like that, but i remember seeing a special on the big car auction and when you get BIG TIME money collectors in on a rare piece, they dont care about the final cost, it becomes ego.

[Nolan]

I bet the guys who buy the Electric guitars say the same thing about us.
"70k for a little mandolin?!?!? How many Led Zepplin tunes can you use it on anyway??!?!"

[Greg H.]

Clearly they haven't heard Bush's version of "Whole Lot of Love" with bassest Byron House as Robert Plant. I heard them to that a couple weeks ago and it was absolutely killer.

[allenhopkins]

$70K is really reasonable for a Loar (not that I could afford it!). Even refinished and with replacement hardware, I'd say someone got a bargain.

[AlanN]

You bet they did.

[glauber]

I'd say it has a good chance of being a good player, but who knows... heck of a lot of money to find out. Since this one is less collectible, there is no guarantee of resale value.

[Steve Davis]

Unfortunately I was too late for the preview. I was hoping to have a chance to play it.

[Links]

It is really hard to say if this tells us anything at all about the "Loar" or high end mandolin market. #I guess if you own a refinished or "non-original" Loar, you probably think it went way too cheap and someone got a bargain (I know I would). #If you own an all original Loar, you probably think it went for a decent price, but suspect that it does not tell you anything about what yours might be worth (you probably already know anyway) on today's market.

I may be wrong, but to me the most "sellable" collectibles are those at the very top regardless if the price is three times as much. #Most collectibles below that do not give you a true picture of the top end market. #I guess another way you could look at it, and this may be a perfect example, is that refinished instruments are worth about half that of a non-refinished instrument. #At least that would give you some sort of "baseline".

[Glassweb]

I agree with Glauber... repaired cracks, total refin done in lacquer, missing tuners and tailpiece plus it's a Virzi model... I don't think this F5 was a "bargain" at all at this price. Of course, eventually it'll all even out...

[chris]

I agree with Glauber... repaired cracks, total refin done in lacquer, missing tuners and tailpiece plus it's a Virzi model... I don't think this F5 was a "bargain" at all at this price. Of course, eventually it'll all even out...
Hmmmm, I have heard some virzi Loars that sound better than some non virzi Loars.

[Brian Aldridge]

Mandopluker's comments are a bit puzzleing. I am wondering what qualifies as "some junk out there with a Loar label". What are the issues that would qualify it as junk?
The other thing that has me wondering is: "If you want the good stuff no doubt is gonna cost big bucks, but you #still better get it checked out really good by the experts and the there is never a guarantee."
So, exactly how does one go about getting it checked out by the experts? Do you mean hire and fly them in to where the Loar is located, or do you get the seller to travel with you to them? I kind of doubt very many sellers would let you take the mandolin and have it checked out before you buy it. How do you go about geting the experts to verify it for you? Also, he said there was never a guarantee. Guarantee of what? That it is authentic? I don't understand.

[Dan Margolis]

The original Explorer is pretty much the rarest of the rare, I think. I don't believe it was ever a production model in those days, few known to exist, original '50's Gibson, etc. And I think that it's a bit naive to call a solid body 'just a block of wood', or words to that effect. A really great guitar is special, acoustic or electric. But I believe the Explorer fetched so much due to its rarity. Dan

[JimRichter]

In regards to the Explorer, I don't know the numbers, but I bet there are less '59 Explorers than Loars. The reason for the price is 1) the scarcity of the original Koa Explorers and Flying V's (they were big flops when released) and 2) the '59 humbucking pickups in there. Part of it is probably also the year--1959--which is a magical/mystical year for Gibson electric guitar production (that is the vintage any Gibson vintage guitar guy drools over).

It's also two way different groups of buyers. I would say that the mandolin buying public is very much a niche market compared to the world of electric guitar.

[Nolan]

It sure seems to me that the mandolin market is taking a dive or maybe more of a correction. #I've always read that Loars weren't part of the equation when it comes to the bubble... but could they be? #I guess time will tell. #Did those recent Loars up for $180k ever sell? #Last I heard they hadn't.
Personally, some of the junkiest looking Loars I've seen have been the best sounding but I think Mandoluker is probably refering to "Junk" in reference to their tone. #Funny how Mike Marshall can have Monteleone re-graduate his Loar and nobody has a problem with that but this Skinner Loar gets a new finish from the same luthier and people freak out.

[AlanN]

Funny how Mike Marshall can have Monteleone re-graduate his Loar and nobody has a problem with that but this Skinner Loar gets a new finish from the same luthier and people freak out.

- well put

[August Watters]

I played the Skinner Loar. It was wonderful. Sounded asleep, just needed to be played, but excellent dynamics and tonal range. Even at $70k however I wouldn't want to accept that level of risk. A couple of months back I dropped my F5 on a wood floor -- had to have two cracks repaired. I'm glad that didn't cost me a few years' worth of earnings!

I got the mando-bass, which also was missing original parts (bridge and tuners) -- which may account for the (relatively) low price. Also a wonderful instrument.

August W

[Ray(T)]

Whilst I can appreciate the rarity value of a 59 Explorer and that there are far more peope available to drool over an electric guitar than a mandolin, I still don't think it naive to call a solid body "just a block of wood". Seems to me that the shape is largely down to fashion and/or erganomics rather than getting a particular sound - maybe I'm mistaken - if so please feel free to explain to me why; nobody has been able/prepared to do so in the last 40 odd years!

[Glassweb]

Ah yes, young Mandopluker... "The Ring of the Loars" accepts your sincere apology! #{:o)
Chris, I agree with you completely about the quality of Virzi Loars, as two that I have previously owned were as good as just about any Loar I've played. I was referring more to the fact that most buyers would still probably prefer acquiring a non-Virzi Loar given the choice... especially the "grassers".
To anyone looking to acquire a Loar I'd say expect to pay top, top dollar these days for anything that is clean and original without a Virzi. About $10K-$15K less for the same with a Virzi. All the others will be priced according to whatever issues they have. Or something like that! Don't look for anything to go for $70K again anytime soon. Even with its issues that was still a pretty fair price.

[Links]

[QUOTE]Nothing is ever a guarantee, but anyone can do their due dilligence in obtaining what "thier" own level of expectation is.

I am sure (I would not) let anyone "check" out an instrument nor anything else that valuable with them paying me for it. Then I would allow them a window with it -generally.

Mandoplucker - I couldn't disagree more with your assessement of a "high end" mandolin sale. Reputable sellers "should" always let a potential buyer (a serious one anyway) check out, or have their instrument checked out. Certainly there should be a policy or agreement as to whom is responsible if there is an accident or otherwise damage to the instrument.

Selling legitimate fine instruments is much more than a clandestine "buyer beware" situation. It is a business deal that should be handled as such. Recently, an all original flathead prewar Gibson Mastertone sold on Ebay for about 65k. Before the final bid, the bidder contacted the seller and agreed to meet him in Nashville (or pre-arranged city) to let Curtis McPeake certify that the banjo was indeed original. That was the way it should have been handled.

When I buy a valuable (or even not so valuable) antique, I ask the seller to write me a receipt with the description of what the item is. From a legal standpoint if I buy a brand X prewar widget, I want it spelled out on paper with the seller's name on it!

I may be misreading what you intended to convey, so apologize if I misunderstood!

[Dan Margolis]

Whilst I can appreciate the rarity value of a 59 Explorer and that there are far more people available to drool over an electric guitar than a mandolin, I still don't think it naive to call a solid body "just a block of wood". Seems to me that the shape is largely down to fashion and/or ergonomics rather than getting a particular sound - maybe I'm mistaken - if so please feel free to explain to me why; nobody has been able/prepared to do so in the last 40 odd years!
Well, I know that different "blocks of wood" sound different from one another. #Obviously, someone paying 600K for an Explorer is buying a collectible rarity. #Does it matter if it "sounds great?" #Is the buyer going to take it to gigs? It seems preposterous. #Those that buy 40-50 yr old Fenders and Gibsons seem to think that they sound/play different than most new guitars. #My own experience--I have a 35 year-old Gibson Les Paul Special, a slab 'o mahogany. #I have played lots of Specials and Juniors, but I seldom if ever play a new one that resonates like mine--it's a good block of wood. #As far as instrument shapes, I've read many comments by folks in this very forum who felt that a good A style sounded similar or the same as a maker's comparable F style. #I'm not saying everyone believes this, but some folks do. #Yet they often end up with an F, 'cause they like the look. #Geez, in bluegrass the look--and it's pretty conservative--is generally important to folks. #Mandolins look like Gibsons, guitars look like Martins (no sunburst please!)