Bowlbacks of Note

[Jim Garber]

It looks like a previous owner pianted the front to match a chocolate bar. Amazing. That may be the only Calace I can afford at the moment. still I imagine it will go for much more than a non-calace basket case.

Sorry, I just took another look. It is not a Calace but a Pagace. Much different. Raffaele Pagace was famous for his hand-painted mandolins.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here a 1897 Fratelli (Nic & Raf) Calace; an exceptional bowlback of note!

Click here to find it on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7329256409&rd=1)
Check out the "ask the seller" emails for this Calace here (http://contact.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ShowCoreAskSellerQuestion&requested=mannings-musicals&iid=7329256409&frm=284&redirect=0&ShowASQAlways=1&SSPageName=PageAskSellerQuestion_VI). Nice (and smart) of this seller to let the auction run its course. Unless, of course he gets the proverbial offer he can't refuse.

Meanwhile, Marco is high bidder at €307 for the basket case "Pagace." At least he will restore it, hopefully properly. I have a feeling that it will go for over €500, tho. Probably needs €1000-1500 worth of work on this thing to make it playable, strip the top and refinish.

[Bob A]

Yeah, well, I confess to making him an offer that it seems he could refuse. Way I look at it, if it's going to go cheap and early, why not to me?

Meanwhile it's no business as usual for the high-dollar Calaces, and even Marco's Maratea (?) went down with no bids.

[onthefiddle]

The "Pagace" (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6538105959) ended at 307 Euros. (How do you get a Euro symbol Jim? I have a stubbornly British keyboard with £ and $ only.)
It will be quite some time before it becomes available again I'm sure http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jon

[Jim Garber]

How do you get a Euro symbol Jim? I have a stubbornly British keyboard with £ and $ only.
Jon:
I work on a Mac so it is merely opt-shift-2 but it works differently on a PC. Eugene and I had this discussion some time ago and I was able to find the keycode for € for the PC but can;t find it at the moment.

Jim

[Eugene]

alt+0128 generates €. Alternately, I also find EU$ to be acceptable.

[onthefiddle]

Thank you Jim & Eugene! All I need is an excuse to use it now http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jon

[Martin Jonas]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7329777677&rd=1) is a set of closed bowlback tuners with bone buttons (one seems to be replacement). They look very similar to those on the plainer of my Ceccherinis. Might be a good buy for somebody needing replacements.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7330405919&rd=1) is a strange beast. It superficially looks like a de Meglio clone, but with an all-aluminium bridge, and both soundhole and cant seem strangely far down the body.

[On second read, I see that it has a completely new laminate soundboard. The mind boggles -- who on earth thought that was a good investment of time and money, and why was it done so distinctly non-authentic?]

Martin

[onthefiddle]

I couldn't agree more Martin. This appears to have been by Carlo Loveri, who was a Neapolitan Violin maker. I would have liked it as a restoration project, but I'm not at all interested now.
I assume that the height of the ribs (depth of the bowl) was reduced, and this is what has caused the unusually low cant.
I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of the bridge design anyway (though maybe I'm just being conservative) - does anyone know if this was typical for his mandolins? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Jon

[Jim Garber]

I just got a notice that William Petit has this nice looking Fratelli Vinaccia (http://www.williampetit.com/mandoline-fratelli-vinaccia/mandolin.htm). No further details on the site but I emailed to find out condition, price and other minutiae. I will report back.

I am afraid it it definitely out of my league at the moment. Got to de-access that dross from my collection, like those guitars and replenish the BMAS account.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

I'm not convinced by the effectiveness of the bridge design anyway (though maybe I'm just being conservative) - does anyone know if this was typical for his mandolins? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
This is a Loveri mandolin from Carlo M's site and is likely what the ebay one should look like. The bridge (tho truncated on the ends) is the std bone inset type. On the eBay one it also looks like the fretboard is inset into the body,tho it is a little difficult to tell from the photos.

It looks like the restoration on the ebay example was done quite neatly, but why in the world would they use laminated wood for the top? A real mystery.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Petit got back to me and the price is €2000 including 24 hour Fedex shipping to the US. Sounds pretty good for someone interested in such a thing.

Jim

[Bob A]

Well, the Calace Bros (1897) went for $1400. Not to me, alas, but I trust it'll be in a good home. Certainly a reasonable price (assuming it's not in need of repair).

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello!

Here is a post from the BDZ Discussion Forum:

"Abgeschickt von Ermanno am 19 Juni, 2005 um 10:21:45

hello, I sell mandolino Embergher n╟ 2 year 1936, perfect one to play. For other information to write to erza_2@msn.com"

I don`t know who it is. I just know, that there are people here, that might be interested in this one.

Good luck!

[Martin Jonas]

Only two hours to go on this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7330588891&rd=1) Guiseppe Vinaccia with maple bowl. Surprisingly low price so far (but the big hitters may be just around the corner).

And going from the sublime to the ridiculous: does anybody have a clue what this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7331617086&rd=1) bowlback is all about. Looks ordinary enough, but what are the two extra tuners for? Looking at the nut sspacings, it seems to have been made into a 10-string at some stage and then converted back. Something wrong here, anyway.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

A few bidders in Italy (including Marco) and one in Taiwan have already asked questions. We will see what happens. This is a fairly plain one but I am sure that it is nice.

It would be nice if one of us (not me... sigh!) could get it.

Martin? Bob? anyone else?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Martin,
May I be the very first to congratulate you on that coup. Good deal, I hope. And I am looking fwd to reports after receiving it.

I did ask the seller for the additional photos about 10 minutes before the sale ended. Still looks good. Maple backed, which I imagine is rarer for these.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks, Jim. This was very much a spontaneous bid -- I had no intention of going for it, but thought I can't just let it go for that when there were no further bids with five minutes to go. I'm still somewhat shell-shocked that I got it for what was a rather low-ball bid -- I was expecting Leuterius to have a much higher maximum. We've had Calace wrecks and no-names for more money than this reasonable-looking-if-plain Vinaccia. More news once I have it in my hands.

Unlike you, I didn't even get around to asking for those photos, so I'm relieved to hear that they look good (although of course one never knows until one has the instrument).

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Martin:
The only thing that is obvious from the additional photos is some veneer damage on the back of the peghead and the fact that the tuner plates are mismatched.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here is the label for Martin's new acquisition.

Jim

[Eugene]

Congrats, Martin!

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks, Eugene. Also thanks to Jim for those photos. The veneer damage is trivial. Clearly, both sets of tuners are non-original, so at least some work has been done on this in the past (indicating that it was played and not just sitting in an attic somewhere for a century).

I had a look through past discussions to see what there is on Giuseppe. I see that Bob has one, rescued from oblivion by Tom Crandall, but otherwise there isn't too much. In the Vinaccia family tree thread, Eric has quoted Sparks as implying Giuseppe was competing with the Fratelli Vinaccia workshop (i.e. Achille and Gennaro V.) in the late 19th century. One page back in the present thread, Alex mentioned Pasquale, Gennaro and Gaetano V. as being at their peak in the 1890s, but didn't mention Giuseppe. Otherwise, not much out there. The label clearly draws on a family relation to one or the other of the Gaetanos (of which there were at least two: the earlier 1759 - c.1831 and the later around 1900). Suddenly, I have a keen interest in the convoluted Vinaccia family tree. At least, there seems to be more information out there than there is on Umberto Ceccherini...

Martin

[Bob A]

Way to go, Martin! Glad I didn't see it before you won - I'm deeply addicted to maple bowls, but my debt can't take another mandolin hit anyway. I'm eager to read your impressions when once you get it in play.

[trebleclef528]

Congratulations Martin.... I was tempted, but my Bank Balance would have gone into shock.
A very good price, I'm really surprised "Marco and Co" did'nt go further, I'll bet they are kicking themselves.
Hopefully I'll get a good look at this at the next LGMA mandolin weekend?

Regards,
Ian and Barbara

[guitharsis]

Oh my gosh! Congrats, Martin!

Doreen

[dfxlr]

Hi all

By the way, I am the winning buyer of that one mandolin Dan K was trying to get a couple of months ago. I bought the previous mandolin for a friend. Right now, the mandolin is in repair. It had a sunken top (which is why there was a piece of cardboard under the bridge which was on the pickguard). The neck was pretty straight. The people I sent the mandolin to for repair said that it is an American mandolin, made around the turn of the century. They also believe it Larson mandolin, complete with a Larson-style bridge. Anybody disagree? Here's the e-bay picture again. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....6397014 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7316397014)

[Jim Garber]

That one, dfxlr, resembles very much the Stahl mandolin that appears on an anniversary poster for the Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra, so I would say that the Larson connection is very possible.

I am curious what methods your luthier is using to fix the sunken top. Were there loose braces?

Jim

[dfxlr]

I have no idea. I will keep the board posted with details (if you'd like, although this sorta isn't the place for that...some may object). Do you have a photo of the poster?

[Jim Garber]

Here is a pic of the MMO poster. Unfortunately, it was in a corner of my office and there was a glare. In any case, you can see the resemblance.

Jim

[dfxlr]

Hmmm...they don't quite look the same. I think a subtle diffrerence is the bridge. Can you identify the bridge?

Sorry, really blurry photo. You'll also be able to see the bowed-in top.

[Jim Garber]

Actually the bridges do look similar (not exact) to me. Bone insert on ebony base. I was comparing the pickguard shape and the shape of the end of the fretboard. There are many variants even in the same style number of L&H brands. They farmed out some to makers such as the Larsons and some they made in their own factories.

You will find many similar variants in other manufacturers esp if you start looking at the minutiae. Even Gibson and Martin varied their models. I have yet to come across a high-end Martin bowlback that had the exactly the same inlays.

Moveable bridges aare not a good identifying feature anyway, primarily because they are removeable. Hard to say in amny cases which are the original parts in that case.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Congrats martinjonas!

Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia. (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=7332770740&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) For your interest by the way, there is a detailed description and picture (Pp. 42 & 43) of a Giuseppe Vinaccia in my catalogue/book ´De Mandoline & Gitaar door de eeuwen heen´. #


And a Giuseppe Calace. #Click here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7332894660&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) (to be had for 600 Euro).


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia. (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=7332770740&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
Aha! Maybe a clue to one of the brands imported by the mysterious Tipaldi Brothers. One Tipaldi labeled example I have in my jpeg collection does bear resemblance (not exact!) to this one. Too bad that this Vinaccia seems to bear the scars of being sat-upon. Poor abused mandolin!

Jim

[lucho]

Does anybody knows anything about any Vinaccia Fratelli 23 rosewood ribs mando signed by Carlo Munier. Even though I had read CM was Pasquale Vinaccia's nephew, but I didn't know he made mandolins at the Vinaccia workshop... Are any of those made by him as good and valuable as those by his uncle?.

[Jim Garber]

A mildly unusual Demeglio (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7333579370) with an asymmetrical scratchplate. Photos are not great but you can get an idea. Might be a bargain because of that.

Jim

[Bob A]

Carlo Munier left Napoli when he was 22 years old, according to Sparks. That would have been around 1881. After that time he seemed to have been engaged in composition and concertising. I doubt he was engaged in building instruments during that period of his life; this would not preclude his signing a label, of course. Perhaps it was an instrument he favored? At any rate, I'd love to see a photo of such an instrument, or read a report regarding it from one who has played it.

[Martin Jonas]

This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10178&item=7334010936&rd=1) de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?

Martin

[Jim Garber]

This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10178&item=7334010936&rd=1) de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?
Funny, but there is no mention of "Christofaro" por "Cristofaro" in Sparks, tho he seems to be the author of one of the more common methods.

The method author, tho is F. Cristofaro whereas the mandolin maker is E. Cristofaro. [Label below from an example from 1900].

Most of these I have seen have not been Demeglio clones but with assymmetrical scratchplates and fishtail headstocks. Often they have strange shaped sound holes as well.

Jim

[Eugene]

This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10178&item=7334010936&rd=1) de Meglio-esque bowl is labelled "Christofaro". #Same guy as the mandolin method book?
As Jim said, different guy. ...But this looks like no other Cristofaro mandolin I've seen.

The author of the persistent method is often misspelled in later editions. I have a late 19th-c. White edition attributed to "Christofaro." I don't have Sparks on hand in the office, but it seems remarkable that there is no reference to the author of such a prominent method.

[Jim Garber]

According to Bone: Ferdinando Cristofaro was born in Naples in 1846 and died in 1890. All the mandolins I have seen were dated 1900 or later. He did live in Paris also (like the maker) and was considered to be the premier mandolinist of the day. He was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin. According to Bojn, it was Cristofaro who first introduced the mandolin to the English public.

BTW his favourite mandolin was one constructed by Luigi Salsedo to Cristofaro's specifications.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here´s another Giuseppe Vinaccia. (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=7332770740&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
Ah, that poor sat-upon GV mandolin did quite well for the seller: $492.50. This one will need considerable luthier magic to become again playable IMHO. Yours, Martin, looks to me to be much closer with a few £'s worth of luthier TLC, should be up and running.

Jim

[Eugene]

[Ferdinando Cristofaro] was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin.
This isn't really a fair assertion given the fine methods of the mid-18th c. (Leone, e.g.), Bortolazzi's of the early 19th c., etc. Was this printed in some edition of the Cristofaro method that you own, Jim? Bone showers the Cristofaro method with praise, but my edition of Bone's text doesn't credit it as the first.

[Jim Garber]

[Ferdinando Cristofaro] was notable for writing the first truly serious method for the classical mandolin.
This isn't really a fair assertion given the fine methods of the mid-18th c. (Leone, e.g.), Bortolazzi's of the early 19th c., etc. #Was this printed in some edition of the Cristofaro method that you own, Jim? #Bone showers the Cristofaro method with praise, but my edition of Bone's text doesn't credit it as the first.
I may have misinterpretted the following:

To the Neapolitans, Cristofaro introduced a new and completely advanced method of playing — accustomed as they were to seeing the instrument in the hands of strolling players and used chiefly for accompanying popular songs.
Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Ah, that poor sat-upon GV mandolin did quite well for the seller: $492.50. This one will need considerable luthier magic to become again playable IMHO. Yours, Martin, looks to me to be much closer with a few £'s worth of luthier TLC, should be up and running.
I would have thought so, too -- I paid $230 more, but I'm fairly sure that the extensive extra repairs necessary on the other one will more than make up that difference.

Although both seem fairly plain, there are quite a few differences between the two GVs considering they are only two years apart. The sat-upon one has the Vinaccia-style pegs in the tailpiece and closed tuners; I have open tuners and a metal tailpiece. The tuners are non-original, but it doesn't look like the original ones were closed. Tailpiece may of course also be non-original but doesn't really look it. One thing they have in common is that the label is glued in at an odd angle; maybe a quirk of Giuseppe's.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"To the Neapolitans, Cristofaro introduced a new and completely advanced method of playing — accustomed as they were to seeing the instrument in the hands of strolling players and used chiefly for accompanying popular songs."

Dang! I KNEW I had somehow missed a critical rung in my Darwinian evolution! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

On topic: best of luck, Martin! I think you (vis a vis the Vinaccia) are in good shape. As for the sat-upon, alas...

[Jim Garber]

1961 Calace 16bis (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7333768860&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT). The Seller also has a moderately ornate Monzino (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7333769139&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT).

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Very nice, both. If the prices stay reasonable, we may have another convert (or two) to the Order of the Bowl. Alas, however: the likelihood is rather that, instead of converts, such instruments will be acquired by #addicts. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Bob A]

(Scratch, scratch, sniff, twitch . . . ) Ah resemble that remark, podner!

[Martin Jonas]

This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7336969067&rd=1) no-name bowl seems rather fancy, with fluted ribs, front-mounted engraved tuners and a very fancy hard case. May come into the pigs-with-lipstick cetegory, of course, and has a worrying mention of a botched repair at the headstock (but no photo showing it).


This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7336926712&rd=1) is the first mandocello bowl I can remember coming up in a long while, sold by our own Ian.

Also, the usual complement of Stridentes and Puglisis in varying condition -- there always seem to be several of those on Ebay UK at any one time.

Martin

[Eugene]

Getting back to dfxlr's new mandolin: congrats, it is very attractive. I'm also keen to hear how the restoration goes. I am almost absolutely certain it's not a Larson brothers piece but by Lyon & Healy. Note the ribs: it looks as though there are maybe four divisions (inlaid faux spacers) per actual rib to give the impression of a higher rib count. This was a common ploy of L&H on their nicer mid-range lines, like American Conservatory. The soundboard with the very long post-cant face is classic L&H. If original, the squared off bridge also is consistent with L&H. The headstock profile is identical to L&H's American Conservatory line and the engraved position markers smack strongly of L&H to boot.

The fluted no-name you've posted, Martin, looks a whole lot like some Fratelli Vinaccia. Check out this Vinaccia (http://www.gruhn.com/gallery/MF3700.jpg) sold in Gruhn's distant past and featured in some of his texts. Of course, knocking off Vinaccia shops was pretty common for mandolin builders at the time this was built. The fingerboard and soundhole profile does look somehow coarser than I'd expect of a real Vinaccia shop, but the engraving looks very nice.

[Jim Garber]

The Stahl Solo 8 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7336612117) from the aforementioned Milwaukee Mandolin Orchestra poster is now on eBay.

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Klaus Knorr mandolin in the Classifieds:

La Raggianta (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=14912&query=retrieval)

Good luck!

[Jim Garber]

An attractive German-made mandolin by Schutze-Marke (http://www.finefretted.com/html/schutz-marke_bowlback_mandolin.html) for sale on the Randy Osborne's Fine Fretted site. I don't know why, but I am not so sure that is it ca. 1900. For some reason, it appears to me to be later. Perhaps, just my gut about German instruments.

I like the fact that it is low-key on the front but fancy carved on the bowl.

Anyone know this maker? Ian?

BTW Randy also has 4 copies of the Philip Bone book (http://www.finefretted.com/html/the_guitar___mandolin.html). It looks like the 1972 edition (one I have). Price is not too bad for those who need one.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

This one (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7336597743&ssPageName=ADME:B:DS:UK:28) is a conundrum. The seller says the label says Miroglio, Catania but the seller insists it is Neapolitan.

Definitely the "pig in lipstick" category but I sort of like the asymetrical, frightening scratchplate, tho I hate the MOP fretboard.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Jim -- "Schutzmarke" (as it's spelled nowadays) is just the German for "trade mark". The maker's name appears to be "V.W. M." (the initials of the luthier, perhaps), unless there is more writing on the invisible lower part of the label. I agree that this is a rather beautiful carved bowl with an understated front.

That Miroglio, on the other hand, is vile. Unlike you, I can't see redeeming features in the scratchplate.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Unlike you, I can't see redeeming features in the scratchplate.
I am not sure about any redeeming features... I like it because it is so bizarre. I certainly wouldn't want to own it.

I do enjoy the oddball things that instrument designers have come up with over the years. That is why I like this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=13416).

Jim

[dfxlr]

Dude, that thing is fugly. FUGLY. Actually, I should watch what I say...the future owner or current biddler might be reading this. On a more positive side, it looks like it was made in the 70's style. Perhaps the owner is fond of this look. I can certainly appreciate it after a while - and it is very unique.

[guitharsis]

It is unique, but not my taste either. Many people, other than those of us on this board, liked it a lot. It sold for a good price!

[onthefiddle]

A mandobass has come up for sale on ebay.co.uk (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7338097520&rd=1)
The seller conjectures that it may be a Stahl. What do our North American brethren think?

Jon

[Daymando]

A mandobass has come up for sale on ebay.co.uk (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7338097520&rd=1)
The seller conjectures that it may be a Stahl. What do our North American brethren think?

Jon
It certainly favors the Larson Bros mandocello we have in the Dayton Mandolin Orchestra quite closely. 'Twould be interesting to hear the quality of sound it produces.

-Allen.

[Jim Garber]

Mike Schroeder's last Calace (he had three others!) is back in the classifieds (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=14953&exact_match=on&query=retrieval). He may have lowered the price. This is a player's instrument, as far as I know as the fretboard has been replaced with an extended one, new tuners and refinish. I think he may have lowered the price.

Jim

[Onesound]

I was wondering if anyone has any comments on this: #bowlback (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7338060112&category=10179&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1) post on Ebay. #Looks to be in pretty good condition.

Thanks

[Bob A]

Since better minds have not rung in on the ebay bowlback, I'd have to say it does have condition issues. The crack at the end of the boel is not pretty, the previous repair on the face crack is kinda dingy looking, the bridge has no saddle, leaving me to suspect the action, and the way the finish has been worn off the pickguard makes me wonder why they put finish over the pickgueard in the first place.

The semi-Embergher looking pickguard coupled with a Calace-esque peghead makes it a sort of mongrel instrument. (I own and am very fond of a somewhat similar mongrel mando, but mine has a label and sounds great. What this one will sound like is amystery, which can be resolved by plonking down cash on purchase and for repair. Still, if it stays cheap, it might prove worthwhile).

[Onesound]

Hi Bob,

I kind of came to the same conclusion based upon the lack of bidding interest and low price. Course, bidding often heats up in the last hour, but I'm going to resist and wait for something that looks a little safer (better condition) and a hoefully a better investment. :-)

[Onesound]

Adams Brothers (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7337730184&category=10179&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1) and a Suzuki (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7338828611&category=10179&ssPageName=WDVW&rd=1) on Ebay. #I realize they are probably not collectors quality, but would they be decent players at a reasonable price?

[Jim Garber]

Okay... I will confess...

After Martin's lucky experience I figured that this mislabelled F. Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7336856453) on ebay might be a steal. It was at a lowball bid for quite some time until the last 30 minutes when the snipers attacked and it ended at €2840.

Nice looking one with beautiful fluted back, missing a few ornamentatl parts as far as I can tell. Oh well.... someday.

I think Martin might have gotten the deal of the century.

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Puglisi (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3764325741&category=10179&ssPageName=WD1V&rd=1) in suspicious condition for the high "buy it now" price of 399.99 $. Looks good, but...

[Martin Jonas]

After Martin's lucky experience I figured that this mislabelled F. Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7336856453) on ebay might be a steal. It was at a lowball bid for quite some time until the last 30 minutes when the snipers attacked and it ended at €2840.

Nice looking one with beautiful fluted back, missing a few ornamentatl parts as far as I can tell. Oh well.... someday.

I think Martin might have gotten the deal of the century.
That one is quite a bit fancier than mine, though, and by the time that mine is in playing condition, the difference in price will be a bit less. Still, I think I got a good deal (especially considering that the ugly Miroglio went for the same price as my Vinaccia).

That Fratelli looks in decent condition, and with the fluted back, the price looks roughly what one might expect for an upper-range Vinaccia. On the other hand, the German item description says that the instrument is "freshly shellacked", which sends alarms bells ringing. The photo isn't terribly conclusive, but it does look rather shiny and I think it may have an inappropriate finish on the soundboard.

Martin

[Bob A]

Too bad about the Puglisi. In better condition I'd be tempted.

Too bad about the Vinaccia. I was pulling for Jim, but it was not to be. While the price is about what one should expect, the auction price, given the nature of things, should be closer to wholesale than retail, especially in light of possible problems.

I've never seen or heard of the Adams brothers. Generally there are drawbacks to Suzukis; their necks tend to warp, and they tend to be over-built otherwise, with a corresponding reduction in sound quality - a bit thin and tinny-sounding. I've not handled a lot of them, though, so there might be good examples around.

[keef]

Getting back to dfxlr's new mandolin: congrats, it is very attractive. #I'm also keen to hear how the restoration goes. #I am almost absolutely certain it's not a Larson brothers piece but by Lyon & Healy. #Note the ribs: it looks as though there are maybe four divisions (inlaid faux spacers) per actual rib to give the impression of a higher rib count. #This was a common ploy of L&H on their nicer mid-range lines, like American Conservatory. #The soundboard with the very long post-cant face is classic L&H. #If original, the squared off bridge also is consistent with L&H. #The headstock profile is identical to L&H's American Conservatory line and the engraved position markers smack strongly of L&H to boot.
Great observations Eugene - I agree that this thing yells "L&H" FWIW.

[Eugene]

Labeling a Vinaccia as a Pinaecia, seemingly very similar to Panacea, must have been very tempting to mandolinists frustrated by technical issues.

[Onesound]

I just spotted this one Mario Casella (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7338925855&rd=1) on Ebay. #I don't know anything about it, but looks to be in reasonable condition.

[onthefiddle]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7339862981&rd=1) is a Mandolin by the Neapolitan Violin and Mandolin maker Carlo Loveri. It looks like a much nicer example than the previous one I remember coming up on eBay UK.

Jon

[Jim Garber]

I am not sure what is going on here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7340624315). It looks like an "allieve" of Vinaccia with the "restoration" done by one of Taiwan's multiplying inlay artists. I have to check my labels to see what "SALVATO PERNA" refers to.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Well, whatever it once was (and without a proper shot of the label that's difficult to answer), it now is a dog's breakfast. I've seen the two holes in front of the bridge on Calaces, but not Vinaccia (or their pupils) -- it's very suspicious that they are clearly not level with each other. Not for me, I'm afraid.

Martin

[onthefiddle]

jgarber @ Aug. 01 2005, 08:29
"I am not sure what is going on here."

Quite! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

If this was a Vinaccia, they have certainly massively devalued the instrument by this treatment - I can only hope that this is reflected in the auction price, and that they thereby learn not to repeat this.

The cost of restoring this instrument to its original state would probably approach its full potential value - which means that it has no real value as a Vinaccia currently. That is assuming that the major part of the fabric of the instrument is still original (e.g. the soundboard hasn't been replaced).

Jon

[Bob A]

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/mandolino-mandolin-1898-vinaccia_W0QQitemZ7339721644QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ
1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Here's</a> another possible Vinaccia for those interested. Looks like the top of the peghead has lost a bit.

[Bob A]

The Loveri is of some interest if the price stays low. Carlo M has one on his site that he says is "cheap", but despite my series of emails he has never quoted a price. He also sent an email regarding a 1954 Embergher 5bis the other day, and has not responded with a price (not that it matters - it's out of the question for me at this time anyway. But all mando-masochists tease their disease with quotes like these).

[Martin Jonas]

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/BEAUTIFUL-ANTIQUE-MANDOLIN-NAPLES-ITALY-1895_W0QQitemZ7341520738QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcm
dZViewItem" target="_blank">Angara & d'Isanto</a> on Ebay UK. Rather spectacularly misspelled transcription of the label, so maybe not all the usual suspects will spot this one.

Another transcriptions error on this Giovanni de Meglio (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ANTIQUE-BOW-BACK-MANDOLIN-FIGLIO_W0QQitemZ7341202807QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQ cmdZViewItem), the seller of which latched onto the "Figlio" part of the name. I think this is the first actual de Meglio I've seen without any inlay on the scratchplate.

This Stridente (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Old-instrument-mandolin_W0QQitemZ7341463910QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem) looks quite nice.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I don't know about the "usual suspects" but this current high bidder seems to be bidding on just about any and all Italian mandolins lately. He/she seems to get many of them as well. Never underestimate...

Jim

[Jim Garber]

A too-ornate historic <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ANTIQUE-MANDOLIN-BY-JOSEPH-BOHMANN-MADE-IN-1901-RARE_W0QQitemZ7340551443QQcategoryZ359QQss
PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Joseph Bohmann</a>. It says on the pickguard that is was made for the Pan-American Exposition in Buffalo NY.

For the collector, I would imagine. The fretboard is blinding.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

A rather questionable <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/eine-alte-Mandoline-mit-Zettel_W0QQitemZ3778073243QQcategoryZ10179QQssPage NameZWD1VQQrdZ1Q
QcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Embergher-labelled mandolin</a>. I highly doubt it but curious what others think.



eine alte Mandoline mit Zettel "Luigi Embergher Roma anno1907". Das Instrument ist in hervorragendem Zustand und selbstverständlich spielbereit. Ob der Zettel echt ist kann ich allerdings nicht garantieren. Auf die Kopfplatte ist ein Metallplättchen geschraubt "Wolf und Comp, Musikinstrumente aller Art, Klingenthal - Markhausen (Sachsen) (Böhmen)".

An old mandolin with slip of paper "Luigi Embergher Romany anno1907". The instrument is in outstanding condition and obvious ready for playing. Whether the slip of paper really can be I to be sure do not guarantee. On the head disk, a Metallplättchen is screwed "wolf and Comp, music instruments of all type, Klingenthal - mark houses (saxon) (Böhmen)".

Jim

[Bob A]

You can definitely play the Bohmann in the dark. The armrest looks like an addon, perhaps - huge and clunky.

So far as the "Embergher" is concerned, I'm sure the tuners are as old as the instrument, which is about the only thing I believe. At least the seller is offering a strong hint that it is not what it is labelled to be. I suspect it is German in origin.

[billkilpatrick]

i don't feel up to scanning the previous 54 pages devoted to this subject so if i'm repeating an item, please excuse me.

much against the advise of those who know better, i just emptied my paypal account and bought one of those cheapy bowl backs. i have no idea what i'll be receiving but in the spirit of stringy fellowship and to boldly blow (meager savings) where no one else is silly enough to, i'll be posting photos and what i hope will be surprised and delighted commentary when it arrives.

one small step ... - bill

[Jim Garber]

Bill:
Which mandolin did you buy? I have a feeling... Musikalia?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

These Vinaccias seem to be coming out in droves. Here is yet another one. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7341949441) Judging the posted emails from interested bidders, I would say that there are a few serious ones, including our friend Bazzicotto. Anyone know this person. He/she is seriously interested in all Italian mandolins.

Jim

[billkilpatrick]

jim - the only identification i have - and i'm not sure if it's a name or simply a statement - is "luteria italiano." i'll be pouring over it when it arrives. plenty of time yet for ... dark foreboding and pessimism.

bazzicotto drove me to buy this, by the way. i'd been looking at various budget bowl backs and selected one in the u.k.. he had a low bid in for it and when i placed a higher bid, he made a counter bid immediately. i tried twice more but each time he bounced back in a flash with a counter bid. i realized he/she must have one of those automatic bidding programs. they're insidious, those. if you get caught up in the bidding you can go way over your limit in a matter of seconds.

ciao - bill

[Jim Garber]

Hi Bill:
Here's how eBay bidding works. You bid your highest. If someone bids against you at the next highest increment, eBay will automatically raise your bid until the other person outbids you. What I have seen of this person is that he/she bids a certain amount immediately and seems to stop at that amount which must be what hi/her budget allows. There does seem to be a limit.

Most folks with sniping software set it up in advance and then th4e software will bid at the very last moment. If the bid is high enough, then the high bidder gets outbid with no recourse to bid again.

Sometimes, it makes more sense just to bid your best bid at the beginning and then walk away. Of course, you also can lose by one small increment. "Gee, I could have won that for another $5..." Ah, the joys of eBay!

Jim

[Bob A]

From where I sit, the only successful strategy is to play the last minute snipe game. This keeps the other party from remorsefully increasing his bid and overtopping you. If they've already overbid you you have no recourse, but to think that you could have won by bidding five dollars higher is an illusion. You'll never know the extent of your adversaries' folly unless you put in a ridiculously high bid, but then of course you're stuck with your million-dollar mandolin.

There's a lot to be said for the entertainment value of the old-fashioned auction, where you get a bit more psychology involved; of course, there too emotion can lead you to perdition, but you have a real-time moderator instead of a stopwatch, and you may even see your adversary.

It's rather colder bidding against the clock, especially with newbies upping their bids a dollar at a time. They're most often the ones who'll mess up your carefully thought-out bid by pecking away at it, panicking and driving the price to ridiculous levels to not let the object of their desire get away. Don't ask me how I know this.

So Bill, post a link to your new toy, or let us know the ebay item number, and we'll congratulate and commiserate together.

[billkilpatrick]

this was strange. i'd confirm my bid, receive notice that i was the highest bidder and almost immediately be out bid again - all in a matter of seconds. i re-entered with a higher bid because i thought the computer hadn't read his (bazzicotto) maxim offer properly. i increased my bid by a couple of pounds (£), was immediately out bid, repeated the process and was immediately outbid again. my "bargain" mandolin was turning into something else.

i was so frustrated by this - plus the fact that a lot of these old bowl backs look to be in terrible shape ... it took me forever to finally decide on this one - that i went to an on-line music store here in italy and bought a new one, direct - sensa ebay.

nice, optimistic, pro-noid thoughts, please while i wait for delivery ...

ciao - bill

[Jim Garber]

There's a lot to be said for the entertainment value of the old-fashioned auction, where you get a bit more psychology involved; of course, there too emotion can lead you to perdition, but you have a real-time moderator instead of a stopwatch, and you may even see your adversary.
It has been a while since I was at one of those. Many folks like to stay in the back to do their bidding and see the competition, however I got one my prize mandolins, my Bacon Artist, at an auction by sitting right up front with my paddle hand straight up in the air. Another bidder told me after that I looked pretty determined (I was).

As for eBay, you can see exactly what happened in a particular auction by clicking the bid history link. It will tell you when a person placed which bid.

Jim

[onthefiddle]

Good luck with your new mandolin Bill, I'm looking forward to seeing some pictures of it.

I just stumbled upon a site that I had not come across before. While there are no bowlbacks listed for sale, there are plenty of interest: De Musica - Fondazione Antonio Monzino (http://www.demusica.it/index.html). There are some oddities among their number - including a mandolin with eight strings in four courses with pegs (http://www.demusica.it/collezione/images/23.jpg). It has the body, and bridge, of a Lombard instrument - there is no mention of tuning or stringing.

Jon

[Daymando]

As for eBay, you can see exactly what happened in a particular auction by clicking the bid history link. It will tell you when a person placed which bid.

Jim
Thanks Jim - you've taught me something new about eBay this morning.

-Allen.
(Member of the Bowl-elect as soon as the "Fine Antique Italian Lapini" arrives... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )

[Jim Garber]

(Member of the Bowl-elect as soon as the "Fine Antique Italian Lapini" arrives... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif )
Ah, Allen, congratulations on that one. I was watching that auction. It looks like a nice one in good shape. I am looking fwd to hearing your impressions of it when it arrives.

Jim

[Eugene]

Congrats, Allen. #It does look nice. #I'm keen to see it in person. #It strikes me as similar to some Stridentes of that era.

I'm keen to see images of yours too, Bill. #Can you post reference to the auction?

I am more convinced than ever that Bohmann was a real...uhmmm...eccentric.

Wow, Jon. #I wasn't aware of a Monzino foundation. #Of course, that shop was pretty well know for gut-strung mandolins (Brescian and Lombard types) in the late 1800s. #I've never seen such a thing as that 8-string beast. #I think I have a copy of a Monzino mandolin method somewhere. #(Speaking of which, I still owe you a heap of xeroxes, and that is still occupying my thoughts. #One day I'll get those posted to you.)

[Jim Garber]

Jon:
Thanks for the link to the Monzino site. It looks like that 8 string thing was called a Mandolino Arpa and built by Galimberi. It is strange that there are examples left out of the Analytical Index (http://www.demusica.it/indice_collezione.htm). There does seem to be much information lacking in general, like dates of manufacture etc. Still an interesting site.

Has anyone been there to visit? Looks like it is in Milano.

Jim

[billkilpatrick]

nice looking collection but i haven't been - milano is a long way away.

never noticed it before but a row of violins doesn't provide much in the way of variation but a row of mandolins is made up of distinct individuals.

hmmmmm - bill

[onthefiddle]

billkilpatrick @Aug. 09 2005, 12:18:

"never noticed it before but a row of violins doesn't provide much in the way of variation but a row of mandolins is made up of distinct individuals"

Nearly everyone says that!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
You'll have to take my word for it - Violins are all individuals, with very different characters - every single one! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Visually the differences between Violins are much more subtle than than those between Mandolins though. That's partially due to the way they developed, and partially due to the conservatism (with a small c) of the string orchestral world.
Those small subtle differences can make a big difference to the sound of the instruments.

Eugene - I'll be very interested to see it, but don't rush to get anything in the post. My time is filled with a heap of projects at the moment, so there's no big rush.

I had heard of the collection at the Castello Sforzesco di Milano before, but was completely unaware of the Monzino connection, or the website. I'm hoping to visit Italy again in the next year or two, so I'll have to make a visit to Milan a priority.

Jon

[Jim Garber]

Hmmmm... checking thru that index, I don;t think that the numbers correspond to the photos, so I may be wrong about that 8 string mandolino. For instance #51 says "Strumento esotico" but it looks like a std bowlback.

Strange site, obviously needs updating and more info. The last posting of events was in 2003.

Even weirder, take a look at this. At first I thought it was three instruments, but I not entirely sure that it isn't one conglomeration.

http://www.demusica.it/collezione/images/46.jpg

Jim

[Eugene]

It's one. Richard (I think) once posted a nice detailed image of that one...errr...trinity.

[etbarbaric]

Yeah.. but they have to smash 'em together real fast to make 'em stick like that... Don't try it at home... :-)

[dfxlr]

Ah, as a Theologian, the Truine instrument blows my mind...

[Jim Garber]

These Vinaccias seem to be coming out in droves. Here is yet another one. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7341949441)
I heard from this seller who was curious why so much interest in this mandolin. He also told me that he bought it a few years ago for about £8. He wil be a very happy man, I am sure, when this auction is over.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7342611178) is a rather beat up looking Demeglio as sold by Barnes and Mullins.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I heard from this seller who was curious why so much interest in this mandolin. He also told me that he bought it a few years ago for about £8. He wil be a very happy man, I am sure, when this auction is over.
Lovely wooden case with that one, too. #Let's see how how it goes. #The Angara & d'Isanto went for £325, which is a highish price, considering that it looks to need new tuners (or at least new buttons) which won't be easy even before we get into hidden faults.

Both of the ongoing Vinaccia auctions are hovering around £300 at the moment and may or may not take off into the stratosphere. #Will be interesting to observe, considering that the <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/mandolino-mandolin-1898-vinaccia_W0QQitemZ7339721644QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ

&lt;br&gt;1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">alleged Vinaccia</a> that Bob posted about made only $505. #A shot of the label would have been a good investment for the seller, methinks, so that we could have know whether it was a Fratelli, a Giuseppe or one of the Allievi. The price is about right for an Angara & d'Isanto or such, but low for a full Vinaccia.

Martin

[Daymando]

In anticipating Sr. Lapini's arrival fairly soon, I'm considering appropriate strings to have on hand -- so that I'm properly ready to assume the duties and responsibilities as a member of the esteemed Order of the Bowl. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #Being a medium flat-wound preferer by nature, what gauges in the light-to-medium category work well? .011/.015/.024/.033 perhaps?

-Allen.

[Jim Garber]

If you are using Thomastiks. I would go for the Weich (http://www.juststrings.com/toi-154w.html) (lightest gauge). Not sure what other brand flatwounds there are. Which ones did you have in mind?

Personally I would use Dogals or Lenzner Consorts. What mandolins have you played up til now and were they bowlbacks? IMHO the bowlbacks are a different breed. A guy i know has a Pandini like mine but he strung it with Thomastiks and I didn't like the sound.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Regarding a preference for flatwounds, the Lenzners are ground after winding (like the FT74s) and are really rather comfortable on the fingers. I'd go for them over TI Weichs.

Martin

[onthefiddle]

This instrument (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7342450438&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) seems to be attracting a lot of attention on eBay UK.
The seller describes it as a "VINTAGE MADALIN / MANDOCHELLO NOT TO SURE WHAT THIS IS", my best guess is that it is a Greek Laouto - perhaps you could confirm that Victor? Also, I'm not sure of the tuning of a Laouto - perhaps it's effectively a very similair instrument to a Mandola to play?

Jon

[chinatogalway]

Gorgeous mandolin for the classic's Here. (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=15203&query=retrieval)

[Daymando]

If you are using Thomastiks. I would go for the Weich (http://www.juststrings.com/toi-154w.html) (lightest gauge). Not sure what other brand flatwounds there are. Which ones did you have in mind?
I've thought about going with TI lights (since I do like TIs), but two of the last four sets I've acquired of TI mediums [for my Eastman and Odessa] have had the need for E & A string replacements in under 2 weeks due to rusting/pitting. (Perhaps it's a fluke, but an irritation none-the-less. Earlier sets have lasted as much as 8 mos with normal practice/playing before hinting at a need for replacement, much less needing it outright.)

I haven't decided yet whether to stick with TIs, or try Argentines, Dougals, Lenzners, or possibly Ted E.'s new JM-11 [Labella] set (since I can get those fairly quickly into my hands over the others). While my preference is with flatwound, they're not exclusive...especially with a new (to me) instrument. GHS, D'Addario and a couple of other brands I'm not remembering off-the-top are available locally, while the others would be delivery orders.

-Allen.

[Eugene]

GHS "Classical" strings are pretty short lived. #I've pieced together D'Addario sets to go down to 0.009" on e" and liked the results; you can probably get away with a set to 0.010". #You might want to try the Black Diamond reissue sets, although they tend to be heavy in the bass.

I favor the Dogal set RW-92b because they are not hard to get and last almost forever (their grade of carbon steel approaches stainless). #Dogal's do start life sounding a bit stringent, but they mature with play in a week or so. #Scoring a set of Dogal will require a call to Classic Bows in CA: 619-282-2010.

For me, the rich, sparkling quality of bowlback tone is what distinguishes them from the Gibson emulators and why they are worthy of pursuit. #The tone of flat-wound strings is a fine tone, but I don't think anybody could describe it as "sparkling." #You really should consider a decent round-wound set, especially Lenzner or Dogal, to experience at least once the kind of tone this would have had when used as a new instrument, Allen.

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"...my best guess is that it is a Greek Laouto - perhaps you could confirm that Victor?"

Yup: it's a Greek laouto alright. Please note that this type of instrument, with its glued-on "mustache-bridge", is designed for VERY light stringing, and will most certainly NOT withstand the strain of mandocello strings! Whoever acquires this, caveat!

On laouto-tunings: there are three distinct types of this instrument, with the following, re-entrant tunings:

Aegean: cc'-Gg-dd'-aa
Cretan: Gg-Dd-Aa-ee
Politiko: (A)A-dd-aa-d'd'

The specimen referenced is, ahm... not too attractive; a mint-condition Cretan was floating about last spring for about $900; a lower-end, "Aegean" type I played last week in Athens stood at about 500 euro (always negotiable, haggle-till-you-die, of course http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

[John Craton]

Trebleclef528 is listing a 1910 <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1910-Italian-Bowl-Back-Mandolin-Giovani-De-Meglio_W0QQitemZ7342649630QQcategoryZ10179QQssP
ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">De Meglio</a>. Needs some work, but the bid price (for now) is still quite low. I've bought from Trebleclef before, and his descriptions are very thorough and precise. Worth looking at.

[Jim Garber]

Trebleclef528 is Ian P. Steele, an active poster on our list, a mandolin educator in Scotland and an all-around good guy.

Jim

[John Craton]

Trebleclef528 is Ian P. Steele, an active poster on our list, a mandolin educator in Scotland and an all-around good guy.
Indeed he is! We've never met, but I've corresponded with him before and he is most helpful and pleasant. To say he's an all-around good guy is to state the obvious as he is, after all, a Scot http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[billkilpatrick]

got my cheapie bowl-back yesterday and i hope this isn't where you(se) and i part company...

there are little imperfections here and there and it's definately a "low cost" instrument. its sound will be improved with a better set of strings and continued play but what i mean to say is ...

it's ok - i got what i paid for and more - i got a bowl back! there's nothing to indicate where it was made: no brand name on the tail piece or peg board and the inside is coated with strips of brown paper and nothing else.

the reason we may part company is because, while i may have very little to compare it with, i have tried a few pricey "antique" mandolins in various antique markets here in italy (arrezzo's is formidable) and have to say that there's not a lot of difference - aside from unknown origin, inexpensive price and a bullet-proof looking glaze.

i promised photos but i'm not going to do it - you'ld only zero in on the blemishes and while i wish they weren't there, i don't think they're $100 blemishes or whatever it is that distinguishes mine from yours.

me and my mutt - bill

[Eugene]

Please, Bill, my mandolins range from ca. 1835 to ca. 1915 with only one exception. They are wall-to-wall blemishes. I've scored some very nice, entry-level, playable American brand-name bowlbacks for as little as in the $120s. I can definitely distinguish between the sound of a $200 ca. 1910 Vega and a $200 ca. 1970 Suzuki laquered to survive the next ice age; all have passed my care at one time or another. All told, I am wholly accustomed to blemish, and I deserve to see your mandolin. Don't be stingy, now; share your love. I expect to see your post in the "Post a picture of your bowlback" thread and soon.

[Jim Garber]

If anything, Bill, I thought we folks in this area are the leats judgemental. Hey, some us even like charangos http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I am always atttracted to good sounding and playing instruments of the less expensive variety. I would not be afraid of any comparisons to Vinaccias and the like. I am curious what you got and how playable it is. Aside from factory workmanship some inexpensive instruments can sound and play quite n icely with perhaps a little setup work.

Jim

[billkilpatrick]

oh ... alright.

if i can wrestle the digital camera away from my one and only womandolin i'll pop them in the post.

i'm sanding down a piece of bone to replace the existing nut and will probably reduce the height of the bridge a little as well. if "set up" involves more than this, please let me know.

i'd forgotten (choke) what a big-hearted bunch you are. you took me in (snork) when i only had a charango to my name (blub).

betterforthat - bill

[etbarbaric]

Not so fast! We'll take you in on one condition Bill... You tell us how you ended up living the good life in Tuscany growing grapes and/or olives while the rest of us slog away at the daily grind...

Perhaps I have over-romanticized your situation in my mind?

:-)

Eric

[guitharsis]

Congrats, Bill on your new/old mandolin. #Lucky you being able to shop around in Italy!

I brought my DeMeglio back from a vacation home to compare to my Stridente. #Big difference. #They are both strung with Lenzner Consort strings. #The Stridente has a nice tone, but a bit "clangy". #The DeMeglio has a sweet sound, even without the brass insert on the bridge, and is easier to play because of a wider fretboard and lower action. #Interesting.

[Bob A]

This <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Raffaele-Calace-Figlio-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7343874942QQcategoryZ10179QQssPa geNameZWDVWQQrdZ1
QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Calace</a> is listed on ebay for $450. So far. Has a repaired neck break. Still, I'd be tempted if I didn't have one.

[Plamen Ivanov]

Another Calace for sale. For details you can write to Frau Birgit Sommer:

E-mail: BirgitSommerArt@gmx.de

I`m not quite sure, if she speaks English. I asked her for the price. She said, that she cannot say the price at this moment, but will let me know in near future.
Doesn`t look to be in a good condition, but it`s a Calace anyway. I have few pictures more, so if anybody is interested, I can forward them.

Good luck!

[billkilpatrick]

here are some photos of the cheapie bowl-back i bought recently here in italy (eur 120.00). #mp3's are out of the question but it sounds ok to me - loud! #most of the photos accentuate its defects (cheap tail piece; strips of paper lining bowl; dent on fingerboard; tacky looking floral decoration on pick guard; poorly finished fret ends ... a case of negativity winning through, yet again, i'm afraid. #too early to say if the neck will warp. #on the up side: the bowl is well made, the neck is made from one piece of wood which appears to be hard. #impossible to say if soundboard is solid or not but growth lines on the surface are tight.

i have to take me hands off it to type ...

[billkilpatrick]

another ...

[billkilpatrick]

another ...

[billkilpatrick]

another ...

[billkilpatrick]

another ...

[billkilpatrick]

another ...

[billkilpatrick]

another ...

[billkilpatrick]

last one ...

[billkilpatrick]

needless to say, i had to fiddle with the set-up to get it to sound right. my only hope is that the aspic it appears to be covered with isn't all that's holding it together.

sorry to have taken up all this space - bill

[onthefiddle]

Hi Bill,

Instruments never normally come properly setup, unless you get them from a specialist shop or an individual luthier. The frets are part of the setup, and it doesn't surprise me that they need a little attention. I'm sure that it's well within your capabilities to smooth any rough ends. One tip I can offer is to protect the edge of the fingerboard with masking tape and start with a flat needle file if necessary, but then wrap successively finer grades of abrasive paper around it for the final little projection and to finish.

It's good to hear that the grain of the soundboard is nice - that's always the very first thing I look at in an instrument. A setup can be improved, but there's not much you can do if the basic fabric of the instrument is flawed.
From your photos the neck appears to be Cedar, that is the tropical hardwood rather than the temperate softwood. This is frequently used for guitar necks, particularly on classical guitars where it is valued for its lightness, strength and stability.

I hope you'll take up much more space here, and let us know your impressions once you have finished tweaking it to your satisfaction!

Jon

[vkioulaphides]

Congratulations on your acquisition, however humble; with some attention to set-up, it should at least work as well as more expensive and, presumably, better-sounding instruments. Good working order is often underestimated.

Enjoy!

[billkilpatrick]

thank you ... i've always wanted to join a bowling league. do i have to get a tattoo?

played a small, beautiful, but horribly mistreated medieval lute just recently and noticed that the soundboard dipped in - slightly but noticeably concave. i've read about this on the oud and lute lists - no one seemed to be terribly upset by it - but i was wondering if the angled soundboard - which tapers down toward the end piece - was designed specifically to stop this occurrence on the bowlback?

- bill

[onthefiddle]

"i've always wanted to join a bowling league. do i have to get a tattoo?"

Is that like a skittles team? I've never needed a tattoo to play skittles! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The cant certainly does help the soundboard resist the pressure on it through the bridge. It also helps contribute to the power (volume) of the instrument.

The way that the bridge interacts with the soundboard is different when comparing instruments with fixed and floating bridges (such as Lutes and Neapolitan Mandolins). A fixed bridge, such as that used with a lute, tends to pull forwards causing the soundboard in front of it to sink. A floating bridge exerts pressure downwards and so could potentially cause the soundboard to collapse. The cant is one feature of Neapolitan Mandolin construction that helps prevent this from happening. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jon

[etbarbaric]

As Jon says, the torque placed on a lute (or mandolino!) bridge can cause the top to be lower in front of the bridge, than behind it (toward the bottom of the instrument). However, this is desired behavior (as long as it doesn't get too wierd) In fact many modern luthiers build some "dish" into their instruments so that the edge of the ribs where the top lies is not entirely flat. Even without tension, these instruments will seem to have slightly sunken tops.

The idea is that the dish, whether produced by the bridge, or artificially enhanced, adds logitudinal tension, and therefore stiffness to the top.

Neapolitan mandolins (with strings affixed to the end rather than the bridge) are completely different animals.

Eric

[guitharsis]

Just purchased my third bowlback. Am I an official collector now?
My new/old bowlback is a Marcelli. It is still on Bernunzio's website. www.bernunzio.com Anyone have any info
on this? Don't know how old it is or if it is Italian, American, German made. It's solid wood - a nice spruce top. maple ribs and looks to be well cared for. It even came with the original hardshell case. It sounds and plays pretty nice for $99! Nice to have Bernunzio's right here in town. Doreen

[billkilpatrick]

well spotted doreen! looks absolutely beautiful ... had no idea these instruments were available in the states for that sort of money.

happy tunes - bill

[onthefiddle]

Congratulations Doreen! That's quite a price!

As far as I'm aware Marcelli was a German brand. Certainly the mandolin looks quite German, though I am open to correction. Once you have had time to get to know it better, it will be interesting to hear your opinions on your different bowlbacks.

Are you going to string it with Thomastiks?

Jon

[guitharsis]

Thanks Bill and Jon

Yours looks very nice too, Bill!

Jon - The mandolin was strung with D'Addario J62's at Bernunzio's. #I still have a couple of sets of Lenzner Consorts left. #This mandolin is a bit heavier than my Italian bowlbacks so the J62's may be OK for awhile, or do you believe that it would be better to change to the Lenzner Consorts right away?

I did a Google search and also believe that the Marcelli may be a German brand.

Doreen

P.S. The Berara Italian mandolin that is also on sale at Bernunzio's for $99 needs a bit of work, but would be nice project for someone. It's quite lightweight and would probably sound very good when completed.

[onthefiddle]

I haven't met a Marcelli in person, but German mandolins tend to be more heavily built -
being designed for slightly heavier flatwound stringing. I think that the J62's should be fine, but if it were mine I would be very tempted to put a light set of Thomastiks on it - for the different tone. I think you could the Lenzners for your De Meglio.

Jon

[guitharsis]

Thanks, Jon. #I'll order some Thomastiks and give them a try. #I'll save the Lenzners for my DeMeglio and Stridente.

I found some Thomastik Light Mandolin Strings T-154L on the Janet Davis website. Are these the ones you're referring to?
Doreen

[Martin Jonas]

I agree with Jon that this mandolin looks German, but I wouldn't think it was designed for flatwounds. This style of mandolin well predates the sturdy type of modern German bowlback. Thomastiks are more expensive than Lenzners, not less, and I am sceptical whether they will be very nice on it. The J62 set is probably not a bad choice -- they sound quite nice on my old German "Portuguese-style" mando (in fact, the leader of our little mandolin ensemble has them on his de Meglio, although I think that isn't a terribly good idea). But basically, either Lenzners or Dogals should be fine. If the Consort seem to light, you could always go up a gauge -- Lenzner make the bronze-wound polished strings in a heavier gauge too.

Martin

[guitharsis]

Thanks, Martin. The J62 set does seem to be working well for now. I can certainly leave them on to break it in. It's probably been awhile since it's been played. I don't think I would put them on my deMeglio! Since I have a couple of sets of the Lenzer Consorts I could try them next. Thanks. Doreen

[trebleclef528]

I'm fairly certain that the marcelli is a German mandolin #and from others I've seen this looks like a very good quality one...... and hey.. for $99 it's a snip at the price. I also think the J62 strings should be fine.

Marcelli seemed to have quite a large rage at one time and I've had quite a few.. the quality varies considerably from very good to pretty bad... but although not built to the quaility of the modern German mandolins (the better quality ones)this certainly looks a goodie.

i think I've mentioned before that the vast majority of German players who have the modern German bowlbacks (like Knorr for example) use Thomastic medium gauge strings on the G,D and A and Hannabach on the E (simply because the Hannabach E seems to give a better sound than the Thomastic E).... this combination works very well on the Modern German mandolins ( and some of the quality older ones from the 1970's onwards)....... but is obviously not suited to all mandolins or indeed to all players.

This combination resulted after many trials by some of the top German performers over a long period of time and is the combination that many of my own orchestra members use.

So popular is this combination in German that you can buy this as a set from Trekel...

Enjoy your new mandolin.

[guitharsis]

Thanks, Ian.
It's nice to hear from someone who has actually owned many Marcelli mandolins.

Interesting, too, that the German players who have modern bowlbacks use the Thomastik/Hannabach combination strings, and that you can buy them as a set! Doreen

[Jim Garber]

here are some photos of the cheapie bowl-back i bought recently here in italy (eur 120.00).
As you may have noticed, I have been unusually quiet for the last week or so. That is because I was away on a family vacation/holiday.

Anyway, Bill, yours looks promising. I would say, if you wanted to fiddle with it some, maybe thin out that bridge or replace it with something less bulky or thick. One possibility is to drill some holes in it to lighten it up. More info courtesy of Frank Ford (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Mandolin/LtMandoBr/ltmandobr.html).

Doreen, yours looks quite nice as well. Congratulations to all.

BTW I was finally able to pick up my dark-topped Puglisi (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7339893492) today which looks like it may be in all reight shape. I have to see if those small cracks are a problem or not. They may just be on the surface and the tailpiece might be nicely anchored into the tailblock. (I hope). I may try some ultralights on it if i can find a useable bridge.

BTW any comments on this strange onje sold by our friend Guitalong (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7345126223)?

Jim

[etbarbaric]

&gt;&gt; BTW any comments on this strange onje sold by our friend Guitalong?

Hmm... well, it is certainly odd. A *long* time ago gitterns were sometimes carved from a single piece of wood... but this is clearly a 19th-century instrument. I like the friction pegs... but the rest doesn't do much for me, personally.

The Fabricatore attribution is fantasy, IMHO, and the mention of that name along with Vinaccia is probably just meant to stir up potential buyers. Note that the source he cites in support of this notion is a quote from our own Eugene... taken from some lute thread somewhere. Not that Eugene isn't a reliable guy (he is) but I fail to see the connection.

I have seen several Fabricatores... and Vinaccias... and this ain't it...

Eric

ps - Speaking of this sort of thing... In spite of my having corrected them (and they having corrected their Website once), a certain Gennaro Rubino mandolin is back to being called a "Gennaro and Rubino Vinaccia" again... disgusting! I hope nobody falls for it. Expect more confusion...

[Martin Jonas]

Both of the ongoing Vinaccia auctions are hovering around £300 at the moment and may or may not take off into the stratosphere.
Just to follow up price developments, the two Fratelli Vinaccias went for <a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/SUPERBE-MANDOLINE-NAPOLITAINE-TRES-ANCIENNE_W0QQitemZ7341381208QQcategoryZ104485QQrdZ 1QQcm

&lt;br&gt;dZViewItem" target="_blank">755 Euro</a> and 1300 Pounds (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7341949441). #I can't really see an obvious reason for the significant difference in price -- both seem in reasonable condition and in both are relatively plain instruments towards the lower end of the Vinaccia range. #I guess the more expensive one is a bit fancier in the soundhole surround and bridge position markers.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Nice-looking (I think) 1936 Embergher Orchestra No.2 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7345624270). I asked the seller for more and larger pics. I am in no position to go for this tho at the moment.

Yet another Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7345600579). This one has a mention of C. Munier on the label. As far as I can figure the maker is the grandchild (nipote?) of C. Munier?

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Both of those look great! I've never seen such a label on a Vinaccia before, with the Munier name next to Vinaccia, but the crest above the name is the same on as on other "Fratelli Vinaccia" instruments, so this looks to be the same shop (Giuseppe used a different crest). Looks to be in great condition. I note a bit of a rough termination to the fingerboard, though: the radius isn't quite the same as the radius of the soundhole. Shipping from Uruguay may put some buyers off, but the Italians and Japanese seem to be sourcing worldwide.

Martin

[Eugene]

Woo-hoo, I'm famous! #...And guitalong has speculated clear off the deep end on that seemingly well-made-but-in-no-way-Fabricatore oddball.

[Eugene]

I think I remember that quote of mine he used from a discussion on the origins of 6-string guitars on Dartmouth's lute list, and it obviously had nothing at all to do with the instrument on hand. (Do I deserve royalties from this transaction?) #Lute list stuff is archived and accessible via several search robot thingies.

[etbarbaric]

Royalties? Wouldn't that be more of a kickback? :-) But then, of course, you'd have to stand by the attribution....

[Bob A]

The Uruguay Vinaccia looks like the fretboard may have been replaced, but I'm far from sure. The Embergher is a honey. I imagine it will go rather higher than 2000 euro.

I seem to recall questions raised on the board many months ago regarding a Munier-labelled Vinaccia; while it is doubtful that Munier had any input in the fabricating of the instrument, the fabricating of the fabricator is something he may have had his, uh, hand in.

[Bob A]

BTW, I really had the hots for the French maple Vinaccia. More's the pity that I didn't have the dollars. I suspect that the buyer would have driven the price up to heartbreaking levels - I know I would have, had I the means. Drop-dead gorgeous lines to that bowl, no?

[Eugene]

Wouldn't that be more of a kickback? #:-) #But then, of course, you'd have to stand by the attribution....
"Yes" and "No thank you" respectively.

[Eugene]

I wrote to Dan'l on the day of the auction to tell him I in no way believe the oddball discussed above possibly could be the product of any Fabricatore. #It was a little late in the game, but I see my comment did not make the list (I can't slight him for that; it was rather late when I wrote). #If any of you reading here bought this as a Fabricatore based upon my being quoted out of context, it simply is not.

[onthefiddle]

I just came across the website of a Guitar maker named Marc Silber, who has a number of bowlbacks for sale. (http://www.marcsilbermusic.com/inventory/db-pages/default.asp?cat=md)
There are a couple of reasonably priced Vegas, the fancier of the two would be very tempting if his price is for it in playing condition/restored. The bridge that stays in place without the need of strings is worrying though!
Also interesting is a pretty fancy "1905 DAYNOR/GRETSCH" with a fluted back. He wants $500 for it, but as is and requiring unspecified work.
He has a fair sample of American bowlbacks, including a couple of Martins, Washburns etc... It could be well worth a look for anyone looking for an American instrument.

Jon

[Jim Garber]

Marc has had a few of those for some time, tho it looks like the stock has grown. The Martin 5 is interesting and sounds like it is in good shape. The Stahl violin-shaped one is also interesting. And he has a few real oddballs.

I never heard of Daynor but Marc does know his stuff. He specializes in New York Italian-American makers and has done some research on them.

Jim

[Eugene]

I've never liked the awkward navigation of Marc's site. I would have thought he would have gotten enough complaint to change it by now.

[Jim Garber]

I agree and also am disappointed with his photos, but who am I to complain. I have a feeling he is busy with his business without much to deal with his web site.

Jim

[onthefiddle]

Actually the navigation problem is partly my fault. I took the url of his mandolin page from a hyperlink in a frame on his site. Here is his homepage. (http://www.marcsilbermusic.com/) Navigation is a little confusing still though.
I can certainly understand his difficulty in finding time to work on his website! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Jon

[Jim Garber]

How are these quality mandolins ending up in Uruguay? This is the second of two active dealers in these instruments. Any clues?

Higher end vintage Calace (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7347016685).

Jim

[etbarbaric]

The engraving on this one is certainly interesting.


JEROME THIBOUVILLE LAMY & Cie.Paris, Seuls Concessionnaires

I don't know much about the Lamy shop, but from this, they apparently re-sold Calace's in their later life. Does anyone know more about this atelier?

[Eugene]

I think they are as well known as retailers as manufacturers. The shop started life as Husson et Duchêne. I have handled a several mid-19th-c. Thibouville-Lamy guitars, I think maybe one (or two) earlier guitar labeled Husson et Duchêne, and admired a few mandolins from afar. I don't recall having personally handled a Thibouville-Lamy mandolin. There is a bit on the shop's history at Zavaletas la Casa de Guitarras (http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/files/1845HussonetDuchene.htm).

[onthefiddle]

Jerome Thibouville Lamy, or JTL as they are known in the trade, were originally a company making "trade" violins etc... in France. A visit to any half decent Violin shop in the western world should find you an example of one of their violins made in the late nineteenth or early twentieth century. They are well regarded instruments within their price range. They appear to have been distributing the work of some Italian Mandolin makers, I've seen their label in other Mandolins before (though I can't recall what now), this is the first time that I've seen it on a Calace though.
JTL still exist, though not as a company making instruments, but supplying makers and restorers with materials and fittings, and not in France - they moved to the UK.

Jon

[Eugene]

...The oddest part of Thibouville-Lamy laying claim to this piece is the word "seul" (sole, only). They must have meant "only" in France at that time as I believe the Calace firm had a couple other outlets.

[Bob A]

There was a significant Italian diaspora in the early part of last century. Many folks went to South America; doubtless they took their mandolins - so delightfully portable.

Nice Calace. How long will it remain at $9.00?

[Eugene]

Not long...(I have no serious designs on the piece; bid away and I will not be offended).

[Jim Garber]

Interesting... I am away from my computer and my jpeg archive, but wouldn't this model have an extended fretboard? Nevertheless, it looks like a nice one and I like the oddball soundhole shape tho I am not fond of the pearl blocks on the fretboard. Comes with a nice tortoise shell pick which should be worth more than the $9 right there http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

BTW JTL is also notorious for their Violaline, pictured in the oddballs section.

Jim

[Bob A]

I believe I've seen photos of at least one Calace of this type without the extended board. I have too slow a dialup connection to wait for all the pictures to load, but looks like the armrest has been damaged. Vaguely possible that the board has been trimmed, like the AUstralian example seen on ebay last few weeks.

I too have no designs on the instrument; exchecquer terminal. However, it has hit $152 so far. For all its possible problems, it looks worthy, though I've never been fond of pearl boards, personally.

[Bob A]

Orchestra model Embergher brought 2510 euros - a bit more than 3 grand. Pricey perhaps, but less dear than buying from the few dealers who have such things.

Calace's still at 152.50 with five days to go.

[Jim Garber]

Nice looking, slightly fancy De Meglio (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7347216758) with non-original bridge. I emailed the seller to llosen those D'Addarios. It turns out that the seller owns a Demeglio tho this one does not have a label id'ed it as such. I told him/her of recommended strings.

Jim

[onthefiddle]

I have seen the twin of that De Meglio style mandolin in a local auction, as far as I recall it was identical in every detail. It had an identical brdige, and also lacked the string holder beneath the bridge.
It was of reasonable quality, though not as well constucted as a genuine De Meglio. I can't really comment on the sound of it as it was strung with the remains of an ancient set of strings.

Jon

Edit: I see the seller is also in Cambridgeshire - no wonder I have a sensation of deja vu!

[Jim Garber]

Despite the seller's mislabeling this as 18th century, this looks like a Silvestri (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7347352052) (Catania?) liuto.

I have a feeling that the reserve is way over what it should be for this instrument.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, I have had dreams... (as you know, of course).

Still, I have yet to hear a liuto that really "works", acoustically speaking; the gamut of pitch the poor instrument is expected to actually resonate to is ENORMOUS! Hence its many —and insoluble, I'm afraid—#problems: no body-shape, no specs will accommodate ALL that range. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

On the other hand, perhaps —in retirement http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif — a mandocello may figure in the crystal ball. Why, Jim... you and I, and a few choice friends can actually start a quartetto classico: The Mandogeezers. Whad'ya think, eh? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Let's plan ahead: end of 2020-'21 season...

[margora]

Quote: "On the other hand, perhaps —in retirement — a mandocello may figure in the crystal ball. Why, Jim... you and I, and a few choice friends can actually start a quartetto classico: The Mandogeezers. Whad'ya think, eh? Let's plan ahead: end of 2020-'21 season..."

Count me in!

[Jim Garber]

Now we only need the mandola, right?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Not to mention that, in order to reach that blessed day, I need to survive the intervening SIXTEEN SEASONS!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

But all this, of course, belongs to a whoooooooooooole other thread. Say... do you think we can keep a thread on board that long? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Back to our regular programming; I am not bidding on the liuto, on account of the above, uhm... prematurity. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim Garber]

I briefly played the Calace liuto that belongs to the Munier Orchestra. It is amazing what a large neck that is. I am not sure how Raffaele got those beautiful tones out of his instrument.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Yeah... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif another reason that, if I ever acquire a plucked bass instrument, it will probably be a narrow-necked mandocello, as cello-ish as it can possibly be. All that, of course, by way of dreaming... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

The liuto is impressive; having said that, it reminds me a bit of those 5-string double-basses common in German orchestras— with a sub-contra B!!! Sooooooooo unwieldy...

Until that happy day, fellow-Mandogeezers! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[margora]

Quote: "Now we only need the mandola, right?"

I'll play that instead, if it helps.

[Jim Garber]

Ah yess, I can see us now at the Raffaele Calace Home for the Aged Mandolinists in a beautiful villa in Tuscany. Lovely thought...

Aerobics after breakfast and mandolin orchestra at 9:30. What a way to fasde into the sunset... ah but I digress.

Jim

[Bob A]

NOw wait a minute, Jim - are you suggesting the orchestra be ready to play by 930 AM??? That does not sound very retiring to me.

I make it a point of honor to be up and about, ready to face my public by 11AM. It's a sacrifice, but I feel it is incumbent on me to make the effort, and set some sort of example to those who look to me for guidance.

As for aerobics, I trust that a good stretch and a yawn will serve?

[Jim Garber]

The schedule (and my abysmal typing) will be open to revision. BTW the architect of this facility had the forethought to provide each resident with a separate room to house his or her collection of bowlbacks (relevant to this thread) and other instruments of mass distraction.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Higher end vintage Calace (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7347016685).
$1775 for this one... not too bad, I think.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I'm not a big fan of the decorations of that Calace, and of the D-shaped soundhole. In any case, I fear it may have some issues that need some attention.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I was commenting on the price as reasonable... I do agree with you that the aesthetics are not all that pleasing to me either. You are prob right that it might have some issues anyway.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Another Calace (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7348472464) with ornate D-Hole, this one with extended fretboard and fluted ribs. I think aesthetically it would be pleasing (to me) if it had a fretboard without the large pearl pieces or with similar inlay to the headstock. Still too ornate for my taste but I think it would hold together, aesthetically.

This one is from the active German eBay dealer, Stringwalker. It should go for about market value, I would think.

Interetsing that it is difficult to see whether this is dated 1916 or 1976, tho it should be evident by the style of manufacture, I would think.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Also a decent-looking and (at 9 hours to go) cheap Stridente (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Stridente-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7347253132QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1 QQcmdZViewItem) and a slightly fancy <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/old-Italian-De-Meglio-mandolin-in-a-case_W0QQitemZ7347612707QQcategoryZ10179QQrdZ1QQcm dZVi

ewItem" target="_blank">de Meglio</a>. #

Finally, a very fancy Calace (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7348472464&indexURL=8&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting). #Looks a fluted back to me, although the photo isn't very clear. #The seller isn't sure whether its 1976 or 1916, but I'd say that it's safe to say that the earlier date is correct.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

Jim and I were crossing over in typing, I note. Looking at the label in the Calace, it does indeed look more like 76, but I can't imagine this instrument having been built so late. Could it be a misshapen "26"?

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

This picture from a relisted <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/RARE-VINTAGE-STRIDENTE-MANDOLIN-ORIGINAL-CASE-STUNNING_W0QQitemZ7347686530QQcategoryZ1219Q
QrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Stridente</a> illustrates graphically why one should use only extra light strings on antique bowlbacks.

Martin

[Onesound]

Wasn't that one of those experimental "bowed" instruments? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[billkilpatrick]

i bought something from stringwalker1 (charango? ... uke? ... can't remember which) and it went well. don't know what his feedback situation is like but one of his many positive ones is from me.

jim - unsure about your proposed home for the aged here in tuscany: is it aging players you foresee or instruments? you're perfectly welcome to place the former in an exclusive, very selective trailer park in florida, thank you very much, and just dump the latter here with me.

i care (heaps) - bill

[Jim Garber]

Jim and I were crossing over in typing, I note. #Looking at the label in the Calace, it does indeed look more like 76, but I can't imagine this instrument having been built so late. #Could it be a misshapen "26"?
There was another very similar Calace on eBay last month with a very similar label. You can see the number more clearly here. I would agree with Martin that it may be 1926 -- definitely not 1916.

Jim

[Bob A]

The Calace & Figlio labelling came in around 1922.

Bill, I've got a used trailer for you in the deep South. Bring your charango.

[CraigF]

Interetsing that it is difficult to see whether this is dated 1916 or 1976, tho it should be evident by the style of manufacture, I would think.
In Europe a 1, looks similar to an American 7. They use a leading 'swoop' on the top of the 1. It is also why Europeans use a horizontal slash through their 7. So I would say it's 1916.

[Martin Jonas]

In Europe a 1, looks similar to an American 7. They use a leading 'swoop' on the top of the 1. It is also why Europeans use a horizontal slash through their 7. So I would say it's 1916.
That is quite correct (if by "Europe" you mean "continental Europe" -- the 1 in the UK is like in the US), but on this label there is a horizontal slash through the 7 (or 1, or 2). Also note that the seller is German, and so am I. Neither he nor I read that label as 16, although I can just about live with the "26" possibility.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

This looks like other 1920s Calaces and Bob has noted that 1922 was the start for the "figlio" labels. Also, see attached label from a 1914 Calace mandolin.

Jim

[CraigF]

That is quite correct (if by "Europe" you mean "continental Europe" -- the 1 in the UK is like in the US), but on this label there is a horizontal slash through the 7 (or 1, or 2). Also note that the seller is German, and so am I. Neither he nor I read that label as 16, although I can just about live with the "26" possibility.

Martin
Hmmm, are we looking at the same pic? I didn't notice a slash through the number (at least not way the I've seen before). But, the numbers seem to be written in a script form. Kind of like cursive letters vs. printed. The bottom of the first digit follows over to the 2nd digit. Maybe that's what looks like a slash to you. Of course you being German, you've seen a lot more examples than I, so your assessment is probably more accurate http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[onthefiddle]

Looking at these different examples of Calace labels there may be a couple of details that might end the confusion:

When did the labels stop saying "Cav. Raffaele Calace" and start saying "Comm." and what is the significance of the change? The change in 1922 to "& figlio" probably covers this one actually.

When did the workshop move from 207 Via Chiaia to 98 Piazza Cavour? This looks like it has been crossed out on the previous example - just to confuse things a little more! It does appear to be the address used on the example being discussed though. Their current address is listed as 9 Vico San Domenico Maggiore on their website.

Jon

[Martin Jonas]

Congratulations to Doreen on winning this <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Mandolin-by-Umberto-Ceceherini_W0QQitemZ7347358261QQcategoryZ10179QQss PageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1Q


QcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Ceccherini</a>. #At this price, it's a fabulous deal (assuming it's in as good a shape as it looks). #Maybe I shouldn't have tipped her off and just cherry-picked it myself (how many Ceccherinis does one need)...

Martin

[guitharsis]

Thanks, Martin. #I am excited about winning this one!
Thanks for tipping me off. #I haven't really been checking ebay lately.

Actually, how many bowlbacks does one need?! This is my fourth! Thought about selling the latest(Marcelli) because the action is high, but am now thinking of using lighter strings on it because I really don't want to part with it.

Doreen

[Jim Garber]

Actually, how many bowlbacks does one need?! #
Hah! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Bob A]

How many, indeed. I'm way overstocked and undertalented, but I was sore tempted to bid on the "Ceceherini" myself. Glad I was able to resist, but, as we know all too well, ultimately resistance is futile.

Remember, too, that mandolin collections of upwards of 400 instruments are not unknown. And the problem with bowlbacks is that they are much more amusing to amass than the Gibson types, because of the incredible variety of design and sound.

You know, it might be worthwhile, since the instrument is in England, to have it checked out and set up by someone on the scene. Check the Vinaccia thread for a well-qualified luthier.

[Jim Garber]

Yet anotherCeccherini (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7348721026). This is priced higher already than Doreen's. I wish I could...

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Bizarre how these things tend to come out in clusters. I'm ever more inclined to think that Alban Voigt was indeed the sole distributor for the entire world and that Umberto sent every instrument he made straight to London. All examples I've ever seen have the Voigt label and almost all surface in the UK (Victor's and Bob's are in the US, but at least Victor's was bought from the UK).

This latest one is interesting in that it looks identical to my single-top Ceccherini, except that it has the double-top and the string down-holding hooks. Like my single-top, but unlike my double-top or Doreen's-to-be, this one has a stained soundboard (the others are blonde), it has a narrower body shape, a less intricate pickguard (exactly the same as my single-top), brass saddle and nut (not silver), delicate bone tuner buttons (not chunkier ivory ones), no bridge position markers, no signature on the label and the words "Fabricca di Mandolini e Chitarre" (the other ones are "Mandolini e Mandole"). I incline to the view that this label is earlier than the other one, which would make my single-top and the latest double-top the oldest instruments. I believe Doreen's is younger, and my double-top younger still (it has a different style of tuner plates and different fretboard markers). In addition, there are likely to be tiers of (perceived) quality and original price within Umberto's range. I still entertain the possibility that my single-top (the only Ceccherini single-top I've ever seen or heard of) may simply predate his invention of the double-top, which would make comparison with this latest one particularly intriguing.

All this guesswork would have been so much easier if he had had the good grace of putting years, model numbers and serial numbers on the label...

In any case, although clearly this seller is too savvy to let his instrument go for the bargain price that Doreen managed, the opening price of £150 is still a rather good deal, especially as its neck and soundboard look in better shape than on my single-top (which has a bit of distortion although not enough to interfere with playability).

Martin

[Eugene]

Doreen, you are consistently riding upwards on my list of "most envied."

[Bob A]

As it happens, my Ceccherini is indeed from England, with only a short layover at John Bernunzio's. His plan was to keep it for himself, but the dealer blood was too strong.

[guitharsis]

Thanks, everyone. #I do feel fortunate to be getting a Ceccherini and at such a great price!

Yes, they are fun to collect because they are all so different.

Will let you know when it arrives. #It may take a little longer, because the seller will not accept Pay Pal.

Edit: Just heard from the seller. He sent it out today (9/10) and paid extra to have it sent faster. All this before my check even arrived or cleared!

Bob,
Having a set up done over there would probably be a great idea. #Everything is all set for it to be shipped here now though. #Bernunzio's could probably set it up as could Stutzman's. #Richard, at Stutzman's set up my Strtidente and did a nice set up (according to John at Bernunzio's)

The two sets of Lenzner Consorts I have are medium. #Are they light enough?

Doreen

[Martin Jonas]

The two sets of Lenzner Consorts I have are medium. #Are they light enough?
Perfectly fine. Indeed, I think they are the only grade of Consort that Lenzner make. Lenzner do make the Bronce set (that's the one with the plain A string) in light, medium and heavy. I have the medium set from that range on my Ceccherini, and it's the right gauge. Lenzner's idea of medium is the same as GHS's idea of ultra light. The Consort set are the same as the Bronce medium set except for the different A string.

I'm sure the Consort will be fine on yours; I have opted for the plain A string on the Ceccherini because I really like its shimmering trebles. However, it does come at the cost of having a slightly awkward tonal transition from D to A, which the Consort set smoothens out.

Martin

[trebleclef528]

Re the current Calace on ebay. My thoughts are that (comparing it to similar photos I have) that the date is 1926.

This particular instrument causes me a bit of pain. I received an email from the original seller asking me if I would like to buy it for 320 Euro........ unfortunately I was away at the time and responded to late to his mail...and he put it on German ebay at a buy it now of 320 Euro............ Ah thats life. The current seller on ebay is a very highly respected instrument dealer (in fact his wife taught my wife the mandolin)and very reliable.

Best Wishes,
Ian

[guitharsis]

Thanks, Martin. My Lenzner sets are "Consort" Bronce
No.3020, so maybe they're the same ones you have. They should be perfect for my Ceccherini-to-be.

Sorry you lost out on the Calace, Ian.

Doreen

[Jim Garber]

1934 Embergher Style B Orchestra (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7349313278) in Belgium (friend of Ralf's??)

Yet another Giuseppe Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7349349397). Interesting scratchplate. The seller anticipates questions by providing string height measurements.

And finally, I was able to work out an equitable deal for this "hole in the head" Calace & Figlio with issues (see attached). I will post better pics and more details in the next day or so.

Jim

[guitharsis]

Congrats, Jim!

[Eugene]

Very nice, Jim. I'm keen for word.

[Jim Garber]

I have been working off-site so have had not much time to post. I just got this one yesterday after working out a decent deal from the seller. You can see the pics here (http://cgi.ebay.com/Raffaele-Calace-Figlio-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ7343874942).

I emailed a little with Martin and Bob A about various aspects of Calaces and vintage Big Three bowlbacks. Primarily I am concerned about the neck angle tho I think it has a non original and too high bridge. The neck break may have to be re-repaired and I am not had a chance to open the pegbox to see how cheap those tuners are. They may not be original either.

I will try to take some decent pics tomorrow and post them in the post a picture thread.

In the meantime, for your entertainment, I have attached comparison pics from my files of 4 hole-in-the-head Calaces. These all seem to be from the 1920s. #1 is mine, #2 was sold by Mike Schroeder some time ago in the classifieds, # 3 is Bob A's and #4 was ebay. Mine seems mlst similar to #4 whichI believe was made in 1924. Mine has no date on the label but has a curious sort of wax seal.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Yet another Uruguayan seller has come out of the woodwork.

The seller has three mandolins with labels I am unfamiliar with, tho the designs are reminiscent, and, if we are to believe the labels, connected to the Vinaccia firm for two of them:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-FELICE-ARPINO-NAPOLI-MANDOLIN-1_W0QQitemZ7349661976QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNameZ WDVWQQ
rdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Felice Arpino</a>
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-SALVITO-ANTONIO-VINACCIA-MANDOLIN-2_W0QQitemZ7349665923QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNameZ WD
VWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Antonio Salvito</a>
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/OLD-SUPERB-MANDOLIN-SIGNED-GIUSEPPE-SMURRO-3_W0QQitemZ7349668781QQcategoryZ10179QQssPageNa
meZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Giuseppe Smurro</a>

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Three things of interest about this rather plain Cesare Montaldi (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7349434359) mandolin:

1) It has a rather nice maple bowl
2) a nice-looking hard case
3) an Alban Voight label that is not on a Demeglio clone for once.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I've seen Voigt labels in Ferrari mandolins as well, which were not De Meglio-kin. (BTW I wouldn't necessarily call Ceccherinis "De Meglio clones", although they certainly share some of the visuals. The bowl shape, bracing and construction are all markedly different, as is the scale length.)

Somehow all three of the three mandolins from the latest Uruguay seller make a slightly crude impression in terms of workmanship. I can only see one label claiming a Vinaccia connection ("Antonio Salvito, allievo Vinaccia"). The seller in his description leaves out the rather crucial word "allievo" and rechristens the maker "Antonio Salvito Vinaccia". Which of the other two has a Vinaccia connection?

Congratulations again to Jim on his Calace! I'm sure it'll be a great instrument once its issues are resolved; I hope they turn out to be not too severe!

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I've seen Voigt labels in Ferrari mandolins as well, which were not De Meglio-kin. (BTW I wouldn't necessarily call Ceccherinis "De Meglio clones", although they certainly share some of the visuals. #The bowl shape, bracing and construction are all markedly different, as is the scale length.)

#I can only see one label claiming a Vinaccia connection ("Antonio Salvito, allievo Vinaccia").
Yes, you are right, Martin. I also confused my Ceccherini with Demeglio, tho I would still say that there is some connection between the two. Other than the doubel soundboard, don't they both have the metal nuts and saddles?

My challenge here in the US is finding someone I trust to restore this Calace. Pics to come -- I promise!


Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here are some fresh photos of my Calace (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185;st=225).

I am pretty sure that the birdge is unoriginal and the tuners looks suspect as well, tho I have to check under the tuner plate. Bob and others who own these... have any pics of the bridges?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Another nice-looking maple-bowled Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7349912140) dated 1895.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Nice-looking piece. Slightly more ribs than mine. The bridge and tailpiece are clearly non-original, the fretboard probably too (I've never seen a Vinaccia with double dots at the 12th). $1100 would be decent price, but setting it as a starting bid and having an even higher reserve is certainly making rather a statement of expectation.

Martin

[onthefiddle]

Congratulations Jim!
The shapes and proportions are pleasing, the decoration is tastefully understated, and I particularly like the delicacy of the mother of pearl inlay around the soundhole.

Jon

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Jim,

First I like to congratulate you with your Calace mandolin.
It is the model 24 of the 'Serie Mandolini Calace Brevettati da Studio'.

I hope the photos I made for you of my 1914 Raffaele Calace Model 24 will help you further.

[Alex Timmerman]

Here are some pictures of the bridge from either side

[Alex Timmerman]

And of the little triangel bone piece at the neck-head junction:

[Alex Timmerman]

And of the sleeve-guard:

[Alex Timmerman]

Since the neck and head are veneered with very thin palissander wood, I think that your Calace can be perfectly restored. That is, if the wood of the neck and head are still strong enough to take the string tension.

Of course, if you like to have any measurements of the sleeve-guard, bridge etc., don't hesitate to ask.
I'll be happy to help. #


Many greetings,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Alex: thank you so much for the excellent photos. One question i have is what is the material that the saddle is made of?

Also, does yours have the Raffaele Calace label for any mention of the "figlio"? I think that mine would be later, like 1920s since is it has the figlio label?

Thanks
Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Jim,

The saddle is made of bronze.

Yours is indeed made later. On the label inside mine there is no "figlio" addition. Just the little photo in the left upper corner of the Maestro himself, the impressive row of medal images and the text:

======================================

Cav. RAFFAELE CALACE
VIA CHIAIA 207
NAPOLI

Raffaele Calace # #[Signature]

1914# ##[written in ink]

======================================


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

The saddle is made of bronze.
Interesting... is that the usual saddle material for these? I figured that the Demeglios were among the only ones that used those.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

On this Calace mandolin bronze for the saddle is indeed the material used. Interestingly I owned a twin mandolin to my 1914 one that was equipped with exactly the same bridge. And there are others also.
So for this period on this model I am quite sure the bridge type is all right.

But I don´t think that the Calace firm always used this bridge type, since I have come across several mandolins of the same model with different bridges of the calace firm. They changed them over the years.

Interesting on yours are also the two dots at either side of the bridge place. This indicates a different and somewhat shorter bridge type.

I´ll see what I have more for you on this. I believe I have an old Calace catalogue somewhere. Also we have to compare the label addresses to indicate better the period in which yours was made.


Fun!

Alex.

PS. The De Megio´s were followers.

[Bob A]

I have two questions:

Where if anywhere can information on older Calace instrument models and designations be found?

And here's the Big One: Does anyone know the real purpose of the two ivory-grommetted holes next to the bridge?

Jim, my Ceccherini has a metal (silver, I think) saddle in this type of bridge. My 1922 Calace has a relatively plain bridge, with an ivory or bone saddle - not the style seen on Alex's instrument.

[Martin Jonas]

Jim, my Ceccherini has a metal (silver, I think) saddle in this type of bridge.
I have also only seen these saddles on Ceccherini and de Meglios and their clones. The plainer ones have them in bronze, the fancier ones in silver (or possibly German silver). I have one each, and on the Rinaldi where the saddle was missing, I replaced it with a length of brass rod.

Interesting to see that Calace had them as well, and if I understand Alex correctly originated the concept.

I'm also still mystified by the two holes. They appear on a lot of German instruments from the 1920s to 1950s as well (including the one I inherited from my grandfather), but then usually off-centre. Still, they clearly aren't anything eletrical, like pickup jacks (impossible position) and with the Calace ones being underneath the strings, I can't see them being a receptacle for anything at all (I was toying with the idea of tuning forks for a while). Maybe Raffaele had some acoustical theory.

Martin

[Daymando]

I wonder if the two holes have some treble-focusing function, something akin to tweeters in a stereo system (with the regular soundhole functioning like a woofer)? A passing thought, and probably far from the actual purpose of the additional holes... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

-Allen.

[Jim Garber]

I was wondering if anyone has spoken directly to Raffaele Calace Jr. about these questions (and others). Unlike Embergher and Vinaccia, the Calace firm is still in business.

Jim

[Bob A]

Perhaps our Italian correspondant would pick up the glove on this challenge?

[billkilpatrick]

non speek inglese ... you are asking of me un duello?

[vkioulaphides]

Weeeeeeeel... considering that the Calace website STILL perpetuates the embarrassingly untrue Nicola Calace/Turturro identification, I seriously doubt that you could get factual information from the family regarding the myriad stages their business has gone through from inception on. Unfortunate... I wonder what else is apocryphal!

This would probably be the task for a collector/organologist: a tabulated history of the Calace shop(s), complete with precise measurements, dates, locations, principal luthiers, etc. Considering the paucity of ANY formal, conservatory-based mandolin education available in the U.S., it is hard to hope that any student, majoring in some OTHER instrument, would undertake such a topic as his/her dissertation.

So, with all the best intentions —and armed with fluent Italian— the curious, contacting Calace, may succeed in getting several interesting stories; facts, however... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Jim Garber]

I am in the process of reading thru their downloadable catalog but some of the English translation is attrocious. As Victor noted, some of the history might also be suspect.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

I started a #new thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=27801) to continue this discussion and also posted a link to a page where i have some Calace labels from 1914-1927.

Jim

[Bob A]

The fancy Calace brought $2326. I manfully resisted bankruptcy yet again; this time, the suspected addition to the pickguard put me off. bridge, too, looked shimmed. However, I suspect the winner got a bargain, even with the restoration to come. Hope it's a good 'un.

[Bob A]

Duello? Pistols for two and coffee for one?

[billkilpatrick]

i take sugar ...

amongst other subjects of chit-chat in the piazza, couldn't the calace geneology be investigated and ironed out during your (plural) proposed trip to italy next year?

is that still on?