Bowlbacks of Note

[Jim Garber]

I never saw Bernunzio's Martin collection, which was in my pre-bowlback days. He sat on it for quite a while, until he was able to come up with a style 7, at which point someone bought the whole collection (Tsumura?)
If Tsumura bought it then likely it would be back on John's list, i would think. Wasn;t he selling -- or still is -- many of Tsumura's collection.

BTW Matt Umanov is another one who years ago collected Martin bowlbacks. I imagine he still has that collection.

Jim

[bratsche]

Hi everyone. So, ahem....

An interesting thing that happened very late last night as I was sitting, overtired from much work and over"mellowed" with beer, ogling newly listed mandos on eBay, was this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7316018011&rd=1).

I (very) briefly considered pretending I hadn't even seen it, and just going to bed, but began rationalizing that if I came back to look in the morning (er, a little later in the morning), it would possibly be gone. I agonized over this dilemma for about, oh, 10 minutes, and decided it wasn't getting any earlier. So I sort of closed my eyes tightly (to think about it more, um, carefully - yeah, that's right!), and when I opened them again, the next thing I remember was staring at a screen that said "You have bought this item."

On the bad side, I didn't get any sleep due to the excitement, and on the good side, I will finally no longer be on the outside looking in on this exclusive "Order of the Bowl" y'all have going here.

Um, was I the only one on the Cafe who saw this one, or what? (Please, someone tell me, assure me, that I done good! LOL)

I trust the experts will clue me in to the significance of the serial number and other interesting info. And who will have an extra set of strings to sell me, in the likely event that the concensus is that Thomastik lights are too heavy for this?

soon-to-be bowlfully,

bratsche http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sleepy.gif

[Bob A]

For too long have you been outside, looking in, my dear. Now you can pluck with the big dogs.

And yes, you got a good deal (assuming everything works as it ought. And even if not, it' still good. I think 4-500 is a reasonable price for a clean old Vega).

[Jim Garber]

Congratulations, bratsche. I also think you did very well. Off the top of my head, I think that this is a style 2.

Jim

[Eugene]

Very nice. I know you'll soon be lovin' your first real mandolin, bratsche. It looks to be an excellent buy! I need to get back my eBay habit so I can snipe this stuff.

Flat-wound strings, like Thomastik, inherently carry more tension; I wouldn't use them long-term on ca. 1900 American bowlbacks. I would go for the Dogal RW-92b on this. I've liked the response of Lenzners on my Martin, but not on my Vegas. I believe the serial places its vintage in the 1910s.

[Martin Jonas]

I also think you did very well -- I don't know why the seller chose to offer a Buy-It-Now, but you got in there within 12 hours of the listing going up, so many potential buyers didn't manage to see it in time. Looks in lovely condition -- I hope it is as sound as it looks!

Martin

[onthefiddle]

Bratsche - your Vega is nearly the same as my own, which I am really happy with. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
I'm sure you'll be just as happy with yours! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Jon

[Jim Garber]

I just checked on those two calace mandolins in the classified. One ad is gone and the other says that the mandolin is on hold. Each for $3500 -- did anyone here get these?

Also, Dale Ludwig, usually a carved top maker, has posted an interesting query on this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=24068;).

Jim

[John Bertotti]

bratsche that vega looks sharp. I on the other hand love the Lenzners on mine. Although I did have to change picks to get the best (to me) tone. John

[Martin Jonas]

This entry-level Angara & d'Isanto (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7316191556&fromMakeTrack=true) looks plain, but nice.

And now for something completely different: this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7316547455&rd=1) is probably the funkiest bowlback I've seen. The seller isn't sure what it is, but I'd call it an electric Greek bouzouki. Two humbuckers and a built-in graphic equalizer make a strange combination with tuning pegs and a carved headstock. Also, as there is no soundhole, presumably it's a solid-body bowlback.

To help you recover from that shock, here's (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7315864867&rd=1) a pretty fluted Zanoni sold by Ian, unfortunately with a bowed neck.

Martin

[Bob A]

We ought to take up a collection and buy the zouk for Victor. I can't recall seeing anything quite so over-the-top, without the aid of psychotropic assistance. (Better living thru chemistry, indeed).

[Jim Garber]

We ought to take up a collection and buy the zouk for Victor.
Hey, wait a minute... I like Victor... I thought he was our friend...

Jim

[bratsche]

Bob, Jim, Euge-o-rama, Martin, Jon and John - thanks for the votes of confidence! I am full of eager anticipation. And I forgot to mention the most serendipitous part of all. You may have noticed in the auction that there was no seller's location mentioned. Well, as it turns out, this Vega is about 40 miles from me, and the seller is meeting me halfway on Wednesday to complete the transaction in a place that's about 10 minutes away from a rehearsal that I have right after we're to meet! So I'll have the mando in hand about 38 more hours from right now, and I won't have to pay the $25 shipping.

bratsche http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Matt Vuksinich]

I just checked on those two calace mandolins in the classified. One ad is gone and the other says that the mandolin is on hold. Each for $3500 -- did anyone here get these?

Also, Dale Ludwig, usually a carved top maker, has posted an interesting query on this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=24068;).

Jim
Re the 1906 Calace: no, one of you regulars on this post didn't buy it--I did! I received it UPS on Friday, and it really IS a sweetheart, well worth the pricetag. And Michael Schroeder, the seller, was a pleasure to interact with, a true gentleman and a helluva nice guy.

I read this message board regularly, tho I've not previously responded--you folks are MUCH more knowledgable than I. I play mostly semi-classical and Italian/Spanish/German pop in 2 local mandolin orchestras and a 5 piece band. I have a couple real nice mandos, but I didn't have a concert-quality bowlback until now (my 1898 Vinaccia only has 18 frets, not to mention that my new Calace has much better tone).

To you "regular suspects" of this forum: thanks for taking the time to keep it alive--I suspect there's a lot of silent readers like me out there.

Matt in San Francisco

[Martin Jonas]

I've been following this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7315044702&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) 1923 Vinaccia over the last couple of days and thought I might cherrypick it when it was still lingering at 180 Euro four hours before the end, and then at 401 Euro ten minutes before the end. However, final price was 1210 Euro, a bid which the eventual winner placed five days earlier. Clearly, he was willing to top all-comers and who knows just how high he did actually bid it.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Matt:
Congratulations! I need to de-access a few items in order to afford one of these big three Italian jobs. I actually had a long email correspondence about that same mandolin last year but was not ready to take the plunge.

Did you work out some sort of approval deal with Michael, if you were not pleased with it? That is my main problem with these higher end mandolins. Unless I can actually play it in person or buy it in the US with relatively inexpensive and quick shipping, I must deal with overseas. And eBay can be quite scary these days esp overseas.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

I've been following this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7315044702&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) 1923 Vinaccia over the last couple of days
These can be so confusing with the various labels. I wasn't even completely sure that this was from the Vinaccia shop, tho it did not say "allieve" at least. Still that price seems pretty reasonable these days and, as far as I can tell, that mandolin looks like it is in extra fine condition.

Jim

[Eugene]

...So I'll have the mando in hand about 38 more hours from right now, and I won't have to pay the $25 shipping.
Bonus!

[Martin Jonas]

These can be so confusing with the various labels. I wasn't even completely sure that this was from the Vinaccia shop, tho it did not say "allieve" at least. Still that price seems pretty reasonable these days and, as far as I can tell, that mandolin looks like it is in extra fine condition.
The label is indeed confusing because it's clearly a custom label for a particular reseller (shades of the Alban Voigt/Ceccherini connection), and I when I was mulling over whether I should get into the bidding, the absence of the normal identifiers, such as the word "Fratelli", a Vinaccia-clan first name, or the Vinaccia family crest was a concern. Another was the shape of the fretboard extension which seems strangely wide and inelegantly cutting across the a-string, and the fact that the fretboard looks to be rosewood not ebony. Still, I had resolved I'd jump on it for up to 600 Euro. Of course, it didn't stay anywhere in that range, so it became academic. It does indeed look in fine condition.

Martin

[guitharsis]

bratsche

Sorry this reply is late. Haven't been checking in lately.
Your Vega looks really nice and a nice deal too! You're picking it up tomorrow? Great! You'll have to let us know what your impressions are.

Doreen

[Bob A]

It's a pretty late example of a Vinaccia, Martin, and not a bad price for what it purports to be.

Matt, congrats on the Calace. You'll have to join in the discussions, now you're properly equipped.

[Dan K]

Bratsche,

That really is amazing that you were able to swoop in to pick that auction up. I swear I have been watching ebay every day and looking for new listings and I didn't see it. If I had, I might have been the owner and not you. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Congrats

Dan

[Dan K]

Actually, while I am online I would like to throw out a question. I am watching an auction for a mandolin with no name. It looks to be in good condition, but the bridge is sitting on the pickguard. That strikes me as kind of odd. Do you think that may be indicative of something bad or does the pickguard perhaps extend lower than is typical. This is the link here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7316397014&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT)

Also, does anyone have any thoughts on who may have made it?

As always, I appreciate all the help and advice you folks offer.

Dan

[Jim Garber]

It is so hard to tell what the actual condition of these things are. Warped tops for instance often do not show up in photos. I would ask the seller to send you a photo showing the mandolin from the side and also ask him how high the strings are over the 12th fret. He may just not be all that savvy to begin with and may have placed the bridge in the wrong place.

That one looks similar to a fancy no-name I own which you can see on this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185). I am referring to the one with the harp player on the pickguard and all the pearl. The headstock of the one on eBay actually sort of resembles the boatback one I pictured right after that pearly one. BNoth of those are no-names, tho there may be some link to Lyon & Healy... or not.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I wouldn't put too much attention to the present bridge placement; it's clearly wrong but easily enough adjusted as long as the neck is straight and there is no top sinkage. Apart from being in the wrong place, the bridge is also the wrong way around: the bone insert should be facing the headstock. The seller's ancestor may well have come to the US 150 years ago, but if so, he didn't bring that mandolin with him. This style of mandolin wasn't built any earlier than the 1880s, and considering its extension to the 20th fret probably after 1900.

No idea on the builder, but my feeling is American rather than Italian. As there are several folks here who are very knowledgeable on American bowlbacks, somebody may well be able to give you a better identification.

Martin

[Eugene]

Here's how I'd place my bets: undoubtedly American, almost certainly by Lyon & Healy of Chicago, and quite akin to the nicer of their American Conservatory brand. This mandolin is approximately as Italian as the Ottawa Nation.

[Dan K]

Thanks for the advice. I have asked the seller for a side photo. If all is well, this may be the one for me.

Dan

[Martin Jonas]

It looks a reasonable proposition to me. Be aware that placing the bridge in the right position will probably bring down the action by half a millimetre or more, so you needn't be alarmed if the action looks a bit high on side view. Of course, if it is above, say, three to four millimetres you're probably looking at a structural problem which you may or may not be able to compensate for by lowering the bridge. Be also aware that using a flash makes the tops of all of these old bowls look cleaner and more uniformly coloured in photos than they are in reality. That's no cause for concern -- the patina of a historical instrument can be very attractive -- but can be cause for a double-take when you open that box.

Martin

[etbarbaric]

I concur with Eugene. One additional bit... unless I miss my guess, the back of this instrument is likely made from a smaller number of ribs than it appears. I have a similar Washburn/L&H mando and its apparent 42 ribs are artfully carved from a smaller number of actual ribs. If you look at the back of this instrument you can see the the grain pattern seems to flow across sets of multiple ribs.

Not a detractor, in my view... just an interesting nit. Best of luck!

Eric

[Dan K]

Wow! Good eye. That is a very sneaky little illusion. Is it possible that the consistency across the staves would be the result of wear on the finish? For my part, I don't think I can really make out the grain.

If there are, in fact, fewer staves, do you suppose that there are maybe half as many (one faux stave on each real one)? Or possible even fewer? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Dan

[Jim Garber]

Well, Dan, you came to the right place! We are the crack team of bowlback detectives. I have discovered that what we are looking at is an American Conservatory style 607, at least that is what appears in my 1912-1913 Lyon & Healy catalog. Here is a lovely color plate of that mandolin. A scan of the description follows.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Her is the description from my 1912-13 catalog. It is curious that in a photocopy of a slightly earlier one, the same model is described as having 43 ribs. I have a feeling that the 52 is, like Eric notes, merely 26 divided artificially in two.

It is also interesting that the fretboard in the color plate does not have that slight extension as in reality.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Hey, these American bowlbacks are coming out of the woodwork...

Martin Style 1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7316322696&rd=1)

Washburn Style 175 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7316603906&rd=1)

Jim

[Dan K]

You guys really are a bottomless source of information! They sure look almost identical. The only differences I see are that this mandolin has a small extension to the fretboard and the inlay on the pickguard is upside down (relative to the photo).

The American conservatory mandolins seem to be well regarded by you folks . I don't know if this is an appropriate questions, but what would you say is a fair price to pay for this piece (assuming there are no structural defects)?

The bidding starts at $199.

Again, thanks for all your help. You guys are something else!

Dan

[bratsche]

Thanks, Doreen. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Welcome, Matt! (um, that sounds funny!) and congratulations on your fine acquisition. Don't be a stranger!

And welcome aboard, Dan! Yes, this group here is a veritable fount of bowlback knowledge, isn't it? As to my snagging the Vega, I guess I got lucky. That happened to me one other time with a low priced buy-it-now on a Flatiron 1N mandola. Most of the time, though, I see things I like get bid up too high for me before the auction is over, which is rough because I don't like to bid before the end - actually, I prefer to snipe! LOL Good luck with this Lyon Healy/American Conservatory one, if it's in nice shape. I have that one bookmarked too, but won't be bidding since I got one already. Hopefully I can avoid bowlback MAS for a while!

That photo you posted looks odd, Jim - almost as if the top has no cant at all. The light source must have been positioned right on top of it if there is, but then there's a shadow of the bridge below it. How strange.

bratsche

[Eugene]

The American conservatory mandolins seem to be well regarded by you folks . #I don't know if this is an appropriate questions, but what would you say is a fair price to pay for this piece (assuming there are no structural defects)? #

The bidding starts at $199.
American Conservatory was a mid-level brand of Chicago's Lyon & Healy Co. Their best brand was Washburn. Assuming this one is functional, and if I were considering it, I probably would keep my bidding under $300 knowing a Washburn could be had with a little searching. However, healthy and functional is relatively rare and the impatient would be justified in going higher.

As often stated here, if you do score this, only put the very lightest strings on this: down to ca. 0.009" on e". I favor Dogal's "Calace" brand carbon steel, set RW-92b. GHS's classical set is one of the lightest and will do no harm, but don't strike me as particularly long-lived. Lenzner's bronze-wound strings are of great quality, but hard to come by and expensive on this continent. Black Diamond's classic reissue set is appropriate. Dean Markley and Ernie Ball have all recently jumped on the ultra-light bandwagon.

[Bob A]

It's hard to be sure, but it looks like there's a wooden shim under the bridge, extending onto the pickguard on the bass side. I'd ask the seller about that - it could bode trouble.

[bratsche]

As often stated here, if you do score this, only put the very lightest strings on this: down to ca. 0.009" on e". I favor Dogal's "Calace" brand carbon steel, set RW-92b. GHS's classical set is one of the lightest and will do no harm, but don't strike me as particularly long-lived. Lenzner's bronze-wound strings are of great quality, but hard to come by and expensive on this continent. Black Diamond's classic reissue set is appropriate. Dean Markley and Ernie Ball have all recently jumped on the ultra-light bandwagon.

Very interesting! I was aware of the Calaces and Lenzners, but not the others. Thus, I had my doubts when the Vega seller, after he had told me the strings were new and I warned him that he'd better lower the tension because it required special strings that only a very few dealers carry, replied:

"Don't worry. I have had MANY of these style Mandolins. The tension is OK as it was strung with Extra light gauge and set up by Luthier Robert Peterson. These strings used are actually lighter than the originals! You will be pleasantly surprised. I will loosen them for you for now."

He didn't say what brand they are, but he put my mind at ease because he seems not to be "bowl-unsavvy", unlike so many. But I guess it is possible that he may be right, after all?

bratsche

[etbarbaric]

Hi Dan,


Wow! Good eye. That is a very sneaky little illusion. Is it possible that the consistency across the staves would be the result of wear on the finish? For my part, I don't think I can really make out the grain.

Actually, with rosewood, its more patterns in the wood figure and subtle color shading that can tip one off to this approach. In fact, most rosewood has so little interesting (small-scale) figure that not many mandolin makers that I've seen tried to do anything creative with matching figure from rib-to-rib (unlike maple). So.. when I see figure move consistently from one rib to another, to another, to another, and then change suddenly, its a clue. And its the differences in shading that indicate where the real rib joints are (they are also the ones that tend to open up over time! :-))

If you look at the photos of the back (the one with the instrument laying on its face), you can see that, starting with the small ribs close to the edge, the first three are consistently colored. From there, the next four share a consistent color, and a light patch runs across all four. The next four are darker, etc. Once your eye clicks into seeing ribs in units of four, it will jump out at you forever... (though most others will never notice it!).

The seller doesn't say how many ribs there are... so you'll have to count them when you get the instrument! :-) If I recall... (don't hold me to this).. my own 42-rib specimen has this very pattern 42 = (2x3)+(9x4) So in reality my instrument was built from 11 broad ribs that were later carefully and precisely inlayed with a separator to make it look like 42. The other tip-off is to examine the inside of the instrument... by counting the facets from the real ribs.

And good work Jim... I'll have to dig mine out to compare it to your image. I think mine is unlabeled as well.

Eric

ps - I payed $99 for mine... but I probably stole it....

[Martin Jonas]

Bratsche -- I think Jim's image is a colour engraving, not a photo (although it may have been created from a photo overlay) and if so, the shadows are the artists' rather than given by actual positioning of a light source.

Bob -- I was wondering about that differently coloured piece at the bass end of the bridge as well, and it may well be a shim. However, with the bridge being the wrong way around, the gap that it fill may have been created by the wrong placement and orientation. There is no knowing how well it will fit once it's been turned around and put in the right place. The pickguard curvature is going to be somewhat different from that at the cant. A close-up photo of the bridge from an oblique angle may tell more.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I am not sure whether that is an engraving or a photo. I t sort of resembles many of the colored and highly retouched coilor postcards I have seen of that era. Itis likely that the retoucher was doing his or her job a little too well obliterating some of the shading.

Jim

[Eugene]

ps - I payed $99 for mine... but I probably stole it....
Yeah, I think ca. $200s is more like an appropriate price for a similar piece if healthy.

[Eugene]

He didn't say what brand they are, but he put my mind at ease because he seems not to be "bowl-unsavvy", unlike so many. But I guess it is possible that he may be right, after all?
He may, eh? Yes, he sounds to know a thing or two about this type of instrument and that he offered "extra light" to describe how it's strung bodes well.

[bratsche]

...or not. I asked him what the strings are, and he thought "Martins". They are coming off. I need to work on the bridge anyway (see my post in the other topic... sigh!) As for savvy, I think he tried to pass himself off as knowing more than he actually does.

bratsche

[Eugene]

I'm pretty good at that.

[Jonathan Rudie]

Rebuilt 1925 Calace on Mando cafe classieds ad as number 13843. #Perhaps someone more tech savy than I can create a link.

[Jim Garber]

That Calace (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=13843&query=retrieval) is the last of Mike Schroeder's herd. He had a bunch of work done on this one including extended fretboard and armrest. It looks like the work was done well. It also looks like non-original tuners.

Jim

[trebleclef528]

Quote: "That Calace is the last of Mike Schroeder's herd. He had a bunch of work done on this one including extended fretboard and armrest. It looks like the work was done well. It also looks like non-original tuners."

This looks like a class instrument, and I really like the honesty with which he describes it... " perhaps not a collectors item.. but perfect for the classical player"

It looks superb and if looks are anything to ge by I would guess it plays like dream....if I had a few spare $$$$ ??

[Jim Garber]

Well... it is not a bowlback, but here is a Calace (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7317348666) instrument that we all can afford. Note the especially fine workmanship.

Now we have seen Japanese archtop guitars and this rather crude uke with the Calace name on it. Who knows what else is out there?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

I am sure that a few of us are watching this beat up Embergher Orchestra No.1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7316261729). I have a feeling that it will take lots of luthier TLC to restore it. On one hand it looks like it could be my only chance to get such and instrument. On the other hand, it looks like it needs lots of replacement parts like the fretboard, scratchplate, tuners, tailpiece cover, in additon to a rather worn top with some possible warpage and a rather nasty crack in the back. On the third(?) hand, the photos are not great and the seller doesn't take PayPal. He says he would accept wire transfer to his bank account. He also has a negative feedback from an active mandolin buyer. Doesn't sound too promising. eh?

I bet it still goes for over €500.

Jim

[Bob A]

A grim proposition either way, the proverbial lose-lose situation.

Buy the basket case and spend a year and a small fortune in restoration, and end up with an instrument that's partially Embergher, or not buy it and have no Embergher?

Sinier De Ridder have a nice one. I don't know the asking price.

In a situation where the market puts a premium on a label, the low-end stuff gets pumped way too high; I'd personally go for a rather more pristine example, have it in hand immediately, and be comforted by its originality and condition. But then I'm nearer the end of my effective life-cycle, and have less time to play around.

[Martin Jonas]

I was wondering whether Dan K won the American Conservatory Style 607 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=7316397014&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT) we were discussing. $227 strikes me as a decent price for what it is. Whoever the winner "dfxlrsscc" is, he also won this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7311426100) quite similar instrument, which has a rather attractive clownshoe.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Martin:
I emailed Dan to see what he was doing and he said that he had come upon another bowlback that he won at a decent price.

I was considering going for the AmCon myself but realized that i have too many American vintage bowlbacks and should save my money for when the good italian ones pop up.

Re "dfxlrsscc": It is interesting to see some folks mandomanias erupt and then subside. Last year there was the omnipresent "coast2coastbooks" who bid one just about any bowlback and won quite a few. I did email that buyer just to say and welcome to the order but never got a reply. I suppose he/she is finally sated since he/she does not bid on these any more, tho this person is still active on eBay.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

A grim proposition either way, the proverbial lose-lose situation.
<snip>
Sinier De Ridder have a nice one. I don't know the asking price.
Bob: I agree that it is better to spend more money (if you have it) and get the better condition one. That one looks scary and who knows, may never be quite right.

I emailed Sinier but i have a feeling that like William Petit, many of these are just for show and long sold. That one is a maple backed. Any seruious difference in the sound or preference to palisander/rosewood?

Jim

[RSW]

Attention,

I've seen their best mandolins... only one really impressed me as having playing value and it wasn't the fancy one... Everyone make a guess:)

Richard

[onthefiddle]

This mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7316434484) went for a lot more than I expected.

Vincenzo Sannino moved from Naples to Rome in 1925, and I haven't found any evidence that he moved back again. I have heard a colourful story of how he relabelled German trade violins, to sell to German officers looking for old Italian instruments during the German occupation of Italy, towards the end of WWII. Apparently he made quite a bit of money this way, which he invested in property.

Given the abundance of Violins relabelled as modern Italians in more recent times, it has become particularly unwise to rely on the label in any modern Italian Violin. Let us hope that this practice doesn't become commonplace with Mandolins.

Jon

[Eugene]

This mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7316434484) went for a lot more than I expected.
I'll say!

[Jim Garber]

That Sannino -- sort of a cartoon version of a Calace http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

BTW I heard back from Sinier about the Embergher. They said:

I'm sorry but this mandolin is reserved untill 20th of #may.


Perhaps, it is someone we know?

I assume that means that the potential buyer is trying to get the cash together.

Jim

[Bob A]

They had a nice Calace on their site a year or so ago - when I emailed them about it, I got the same reply. The photo lingered a month or two, then went away.

I've been impressed with my very low-end Salsedo mandolin, and pursued, in dsesultory fashion, one of the hyper-fancy examples on the market, but it came to nothing. While I've come the the conclusion that one needs only one ornate mandolin, and I have it already, I wonder how their fancy Salsedo sounds. (I wonder, in fact, whether mine is anomalous. There's always a problem evaluating a long-dead maker's work, when it exists primarily a continent away. That, of course, is why I've gone to the trouble and expense of acquiring too many bowlbacks, and while I have the instruments, ultimate answers still elude me.)

I'm wondering which of their instrruments Richard found to be a worthy example. My fancy Ceccherini is a pretty sweet instrument; I'm willing to hazard a guess that theirs is a worthwhile mandolin, but truth be told, it's just a shot in the dark on my part. Richard, 'fess up.

[Bob A]

Regarding maple/palisander:

I bought a palisander Salsedo off ebay/uk several months ago, impressed as I was with my maple example. Sadly, it was yet another ebay nightmare, of the minor sort. Described as having been restored, I discovered the restoration involved what seems to have been a can of varnish and a paintbrush. The top had been coated somewhat thickly with some sort of topping, not well, but thoroughly. The bridge was in sore need of a saddle and some patching (Vega-like, its string slots, made for spacing only, were chipped out, unable to perform their function. The action seemed a little high as well - or would have been, had a saddle been included).

I took it to a local guy, who set the frets properly in oplace and made a saddle, sadly a mm or two too high. Even so, the thing plays well enough in 1st position to determine that it has potential to be worthwhile, and I'll get the saddle cut down somewhat, and string it with Lenzners. Given that the two instruments differ in stringing and setup, I can't say that the composition of the bowl makes much difference.

(Interestingly enough, the pattern in which the paper is glued to the interior of the bowl is quite distinctive, and it is obvious that the two bowls were lined identically. They were both dated 1895, though the rosewood example has more ribs and a better level of construction and finish.)

Still, I am now and expect always to be a maple-bowl aficionado, even while recognising that it makes no difference, really. (It's the flame, primarily).

[RSW]

Ok, the only instrument they had that didn't need neck resetting (oh yes), was the Gallesi (with the Roman mandolin look). It was also the least fancy instrument I tried but had a convincing sound. The Salsedo is indeed very fancy but would need carefull restoration to have a playable instrument. The Kasserman was tempting but it too needed neck resetting or some other fix (fingerboard over veneer to coverup the dip at the 12th fret). Kasserman made very good instruments in the Calace design.

Instruments I didn't see: The Cristafaro mandolin is interesting and the Gelas example is exceptional (decoration) if you can stomach a double soundboard. The Egildo mandola (even without the bowl) is a safe investment, Egildo mandolins are consistently good in tone and basic workmanship. I also like the Thibouville-Lamy mandolin (from the pictures) though I didn't see it in person.

[Jim Garber]

I was happy to see this American Conservatory mandola (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318528284&rd=1) show up on eBay. I have one just like it and it is a nice instrument certainly for the money.

The downside is that the seller had some interesting repairs done to it. I can;t tell if what he had done was stupid or rather sensible. BTW I highly doubt (as do most of you) that is was made in 1950, prob more likely 1915.

Jim

[bratsche]

And then there is this mandola (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318098335&rd=1). A lot of pretty eye candy decoration on it, but I wonder what its structural condition really is, and what it plays like. It seems from the pictures that the strings are off-center to the treble side, for whatever reason. This guy "taisamlu" is sort of like the "inlaidartist" guy, except that his particular thing seems to be inlaying refurbished old instruments rather than quirky modern ones. ;) I bought some nice marquetry pictures from him once, but I don't know about an instrument...

bratsche

[etbarbaric]

Yes, in case its not clear, much of the fanciful design on this old instrument is newly-applied and not original. I'm as much a sucker for pretty inlay as the next guy (or girl) but I don't much like the idea of someone putting non-original inlay designs on older instruments.

Harumph!

Eric (Resident Curmudgeon)

[trebleclef528]

Hi all,
Probably not the right heading to ask under, but I ask anyway.

I (at least the British BMG Federation) have had a question from someone asking for information about a "Jupiter" bowlback mandolin. I presume the chap asking the question has one...... I've never heard of this make..... any ideas?? I've asked him to send me a photo.
Thanks,
Ian

ps An amazing thing happened in Scotland yesterday... the Sun came out and stayed all day..... I think that was our Summer!

[Bob A]

Hi Ian - congrats on the radiation. Don't overdo your exposure, getting a season's tanning in one day. I predict you'll have at least one more opportunity before the snows hit.

Jupiter tingles a few dendrites, but it's too little, too long ago. Maybe Jim Garber has some photos archived.

Have you ever found anyone in Germany who's ever seen or heard anything of my Wolki Signature Model? (I can't think of anyone other than yourself who might have the connections to uncover info on the subj).

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Jim,

If I were you I wouldn´t worry too much about the things you mention on the Embergher Orchestra mandolin. Most likely the split in the fingerboard doesn´t affect the mandolin´s playability nor it´s being in or out of tune at that point.
The scratchplate can be redone in original style with gold on tortoise shell and the lost part of the tailpiece - the little plated metal sleeve-guard can be copied from an original one (this kind of loose Embergher sleeve-guard is often missing and in the past Hendrik van den Broek has made me several ones copied from original examples. If you like I´ll be happy to be of assistance to you. Also the plating of the unprocessed brass sleeve guard is no problem). The same with the missing 22nd stave fret.
The long and ´nasty crack´ at the back looks to me as if it can be pushed back in it´s original shape and will therefore not be much of a problem for an accomplished luthier. The unvarnished soundboard is original and, fortunately, not split. I would take it´s dry appearence for granted.
The broken tuner is probably the only thing that gives a restorer a bit of a problem. That is, if you should - as I certainly would do - decide to keep the original tuning mechanism on.

All in all IMHO a nice, rare and therefore very collectable Embergher N.1 Orchestra mandolin.

Rare, because this example is decorated with the ´sharke teeth´ around it´s soundhole (as seen on the oldest Embergher mandolins (and other Embergher plectrum played instruments) with fingerboards ending halfway the oval soundhole in combination with (what later would turn out to be Embergher´s final scratch-plate design of his N.1 orchestra (mandolin) model and both his student types) the one pointed scratch-plate.
Not that this kind of decoration disapeared; as late as 1924 similar ´sharke teeth´ mother of pearl inlay is still seen being applied around the round soundholes of Embergher N.1 Orchestra mandoloncellos.

But to my knowledge this combination of characteristics in mandolins is quite rare.
More often one comes across the ´sharke teeth - butterfly´ N.1 Orchestra mandolin examples. Here an image of such an early Luigi Embergher mandolin made in 1906.

Good luck to you if you are going to bid on this one.


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

I (at least the British BMG Federation) have had a question from someone asking for information about a "Jupiter" bowlback mandolin.
I believ that this is another brand from the L&H corral. More later whne I have a spare moment.

Jim

[onthefiddle]

I was happy to see this American Conservatory mandola show up on eBay. I have one just like it and it is a nice instrument certainly for the money.

The downside is that the seller had some interesting repairs done to it. I can;t tell if what he had done was stupid or rather sensible. BTW I highly doubt (as do most of you) that is was made in 1950, prob more likely 1915.

Jim

The neck repair that has been done to this instrument is normally only done on extremely cheap instruments that are not worth the cost of a proper repair. It is most commonly seen on very low grade small size cellos and double basses. It is normally used on these instruments to allow a child to economically continue to play an instrument until they are ready to move up to a larger size.

This type of repair does have a significant impact on the value of an instrument, and being a repair that cannot be guaranteed, normally means that such an instrument could not be resold by a shop (meaning that it has no trade in value). I would certainly bear this in mind before deciding to bid.

Jon

[onthefiddle]

And then there is this mandola. A lot of pretty eye candy decoration on it, but I wonder what its structural condition really is, and what it plays like. It seems from the pictures that the strings are off-center to the treble side, for whatever reason. This guy "taisamlu" is sort of like the "inlaidartist" guy, except that his particular thing seems to be inlaying refurbished old instruments rather than quirky modern ones. ;) I bought some nice marquetry pictures from him once, but I don't know about an instrument...

bratsche

I would also be concerned about what might lie beneath that exceptionally dark (re?)finish. If it has been refinished I can only assume that it is designed to hide, or at least obscure.

The dark finish makes it hard to see, but isn't the bridge the wrong side of the cant?

Jon

[Eugene]

I believe that [Jupiter] is another brand from the L&H corral. More later when I have a spare moment.
I believe this to be true...in part, but I've seen a number with a rather generic mother of pearl fingerboard that didn't remotely smack of Lyon & Healy construction. I would be reluctant to give any solid attribution of manufacturer to most of the few Jupiter brand things I've seen.

[Jim Garber]

If I were you I wouldn´t worry too much about the things you mention on the Embergher Orchestra mandolin. <snip>
All in all IMHO a nice, rare and therefore very collectable Embergher N.1 Orchestra mandolin. <snip>
Thanks, Alex, for your advice. It is certainly comforting in terms of the actual instrument.

I am somewhat less concerned with the condition of the mandolin as the reliability of the seller. He did answer my emails but I am a little nervous about a bank to bank transaction. What recourse do I have if the money goes and i never get the mandolin?

This is the trouble we folks over here have with buying these desirable instruments from across the ocean. On the other hand I may go for it if it stays sort of reasonable.

Re: Sinier... thanks Richard for your observations. As I suspected, thier prices are on the high side:

Käsermann, Naples 1907 : reserved (same person as the Embergher!)
Umberto Ceccherini, circa 1900 : 1300 €
Mandolin by Salsedo, Neaples 1899 : 2800 €
Gallesi, circa 1930 1500 €
(Postage and insurance included)

I am sure that the Embergher is well over 4000 € (considering what the Salsedo is).

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

On the third(?) hand, the photos are not great and the seller doesn't take PayPal. He says he would accept wire transfer to his bank account. He also has a negative feedback from an active mandolin buyer. Doesn't sound too promising. eh?
Jim --

One thing to keep in mind when dealing with Ebay sellers in Germany is that the banking system is very different, and Paypal is very uncommon. Direct bank transfers within Germany are free and have for many decades been the ubiquitous method by which money exchanges hands between private individuals. Personal cheques are effectively unknown. This is why until very recently, it was very common to find shops who would not take credit cards (card use is still much less than in the UK or US). So, unlike in the US or UK, the problem that Paypal was invented to solve -- traceable easy money transfers between individuals -- didn't exist in Germany and Ebay sellers just continued to use the free system they grew up with rather than pay money for an alternative. I'm lucky in that I can deal on Ebay Germany through my mother's bank account, but it makes buying from German sellers difficult for non-Germans. However, insisiting on bank transfers would not raise any alarm bells with me concerning the reliability of a seller (unlike the Romanian Western Union option).

The feedback from anniverdi is a different story -- as you say, anniverdi is a regular mandolin trader on Ebay and he appears to be the only non-German that this seller has ever dealt with. That's worrying. On the other hand, that was three years ago and the more recent German feedback is all very positive, in particular regarding speed of delivery. Your call.

Incidentally, anniverdi is selling this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7317157312&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) 1894 Vinaccia, currently on 302 Euro.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

I'm not sure whether there has been any mention of this (http://www.liutaiomagico.com/) Italian dealer here before. I noticed that he has an 1888 Luigi Embergher here (http://www.liutaiomagico.com/scheda.asp?idProduct=59&idCategory=33), which is rather intriguing as it has tuning pegs (becoming obsolete at the time) as well as a fretboard extension (which didn't become common until some time later). From Alex's Embergher site, it would appear that these 1888 labels as in this example are the very earliest labels with Luigi's name on it. It's difficult to see, but I think this one already has the radiused fingerboard of the later Roman style. Also pictures of a 1898 Embergher mandola (http://www.liutaiomagico.com/scheda.asp?idProduct=2&idCategory=33) (sold) and a number of Calaces and such.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

1927 Calace (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7317899485&rd=1).

Martin

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Martin,

The instrument that is advertised here as a #“Luigi Embergher” mandolin (1888) is not made by Embergher. It was build by another Roman maker but indeed shows already a few rudimentary characteristics of the famous Roman mandolin design as developed by i.e. Maldura / De Santis and Embergher. But it is not made by any of these three last mentioned Master luthiers.

The label is indeed one of the very first Embergher labels, but it does not belong to this mandolin.

The Mandola you mention, offered for sale by the same dealer, also has characteristics that one does not find in the instruments by Embergher and, due to restorations etc., should today perhaps best be seen as a kind of Roman ´composite´ mandola.
Having judged the instrument I believe that it was made in the Giovanni De Santis atelier.
At a later time the mandola has been opened and repaired by giving it an other sound table and one - also because of it´s scratch-plate - quite similar to the ones seen on Luigi Embergher´s larger plectrum played instruments of that time (± 1900). Probably at the same time the (original) fret board was replaced by a Luigi Embergher fingerboard with - and that is interesting for it´s time - 29 frets. Mandolins made by Maldura and De Santis are the oldest so far found to carry as many as 29 frets on the fret board.

So IMHO a composite instrument with all the distinguishing De Santis features like the head, mechanics, neck bowl and tailpiece and the later applied parts that without doubt refer to Luigi Embergher.

Best,

Alex

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks, ALex, that's a fascinating bit of forensics. Incidentally, I've just noticed that the site also has an English option, so that one can compare Alex's analysis with the (rather more biased) assessment by the dealer.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I (at least the British BMG Federation) have had a question from someone asking for information about a "Jupiter" bowlback mandolin.
I have this from my trusty 1912-1913 Lyon & Healy catalog. I think Jupiter was the budget line, even below American Conservatory in those days.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

1927 Calace (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7317899485&rd=1).
That is a very nice looking one. Unfortunately the seller only ships to Germany.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

That is a very nice looking one. Unfortunately the seller only ships to Germany.
I'm not sure. It does say right at the bottom that the postage rate given only apply to Germany, but that foreign bidders should get in touch before bidding. From that, the seller seems to at least entertain the idea of foreign bidders. Try you luck, I'd say -- it does look a nice example.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

Bowlback prices do seem to be on the rise: I had been watching this nice but somewhat basic and damaged Angara & d'Isanto (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7316191556&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1). It went for £420.50, which I'm sure it could not possibly have achieved even a year ago.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

That beat-up Embergher (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7316261729) is climbing. I think I underestimated the final price. 30 minutes to go and it is €805. I bet it might go as high as €1500.

I am out of the running on this one, if anyone else wants to try for it, good luck.

Hmmmm... I had a thought. The Mandolin Futures Market. We can't own these so maybe we can bet on the prices.

Jim

[Bob A]

The Embergher went pretty high - over 1000 euros. Calace still low, waiting the last-second flushing of a covey of snipe, no doubt. Looks a lot nicer than the Emb. Can't quite make out the label - should be Calace & figlio if it's really 1927. I like the eccentric soundhole decorations, and haven't seen the bridge position markers before - mine has little rosettes stamped into the table to indicate bridge position.

Lessee, now. The crystal ball is murky, but similar models have found few takers at 3500; and "player's quality" instruments are being offered at 2500 US. So let's say 2700 euros. But I hope Jim gets it for a song.

[trebleclef528]

Quote: (trebleclef528 @ April 26 2005, 18:32)
I (at least the British BMG Federation) have had a question from someone asking for information about a "Jupiter" bowlback mandolin.

Quote:I have this from my trusty 1912-1913 Lyon & Healy catalog. I think Jupiter was the budget line, even below American Conservatory in those days.

Jim

DETECTIVE JIM DOES IT AGAIN!..... The gentleman asking the question sent me a photo of the mandolin he was trying to find out about........ it is exactly the one that Jim has detailed......... many thanks Jim (ever thought of changing your name to "Mando Tec"?)
With Thanks,
ian

[Jim Garber]

Can't quite make out the label - should be Calace & figlio if it's really 1927.
Yes, Bob, you are correct, it says "Prof. Comm. Raffaele Calace & Figli"

BTW does anyone have a way of categorizing these Calaces by model name/number etc. like Alex did on Embergher.com? There seem to be a large variety of these and no two exactly alike.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Am I missing something? This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7316564560&rd=1), as far as I can see, is a nondescript bowlback from Catania with a painted-on fake pickguard. It's up to £375 with six hours to go after a bidding frenzy by three new ebayers (from the US, Kuwait and Greece).

Also a de Meglio (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318684595&rd=1), a Puglisi (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318690474&rd=1) with very strange crack repairs, a Stridente (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318736744&rd=1).

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]" The Mandolin Futures Market."

Great idea, Jim. I have already notified the Chicago Board of Exchange in order for them to establish the needed trading-booth for us. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif Commodity futures first instituted (according to legend) by the Emperor of Japan in order to stabilize the price of rice; Mandolin Futures, perhaps the New Big Thing of our time... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

As for the, ah... eeeky Catanian, I wish I could tell the bidder from Greece that (s)he can get a FAR better, native instrument for far LESS money. But, perhaps it's the kitsch that attracts his/her fancy. Oh, well... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mandostud]

OK, all you knowledgable guys, what's the story on this mandolin..??? and do you think it would be a good buy. Thx for any info... !!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318692700&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[Eugene]

OK, all you knowledgable guys, what's the story on this mandolin..??? and do you think it would be a good buy. Thx for any info... !!!! # # #http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318692700&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
It's a very base Lyon & Healy, comparable to the Jupiter pictured above. #Assuming it is perfectly functional with an action around 2 mm at the neck-body joint, the asking price might be justifiable...but it's still pushing it. #I wouldn't be remotely interested in this one when you can get one of Lyon & Healy's better brand, Washburn, for a similar price.

[Martin Jonas]

Does anybody have any particular thoughts on this (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7317729659&ssPageName=ADME:B:DS:DE:28) unlabelled recent mandola on Ebay Germany? I'm vaguely interested in getting a larger-scale bowlback but don't envisage it becoming my primary instrument, so a modest but reliable modern instrument might suit me, if it remains at roughly the starting price. However, I have a suspicion that this might be a Korean factory model, in which case I'd be less interested.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

Isn't this a Romanesque Miroglio, Martin? Check the catalogue... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Jim Garber]

Isn't this a Romanesque Miroglio, Martin? Check the catalogue... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
And what of the mysterious Miroglio company? I see that the Eye Candy page has no link at all and the builder search reveals this:

Mandolin, mandocello, guitar, and bouzouki. Web site disappeared in August, 2004.

Where is this mysterious catalog?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Well, not much lost... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

My guess was another flash of my fading mind... I just recall, vaguely at best, some Roman-type (weeeeeeeeel... sort of) Miroglio mandolins and mandolas. The one on eBay reminded me of those. That, or some mid-20th-century German shop, perhaps in former East Germany... that's the feeling I get about this instrument. But, of course, nothing definitive.

[Martin Jonas]

Can't. The Miroglio homepage disappeared from cyberspace about a year ago. You may well be right, in which case I might desist. Thanks!

Martin
PS: I'm crossing over with Jim and Victor, I see.

[Jim Garber]

Martin, you prob knw this also, but i would check on the scale length. I wonder if this is a tenor mandola or an octave (or whatever the names are over there.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

According to the seller, scale length is 42.8cm. Comparing with other instruments, this seems slightly on the large side for a tenor mandola, but too small for an octave. Closer to a tenor, I'd say.

Martin

[Mlong623]

Hey, these American bowlbacks are coming out of the woodwork...

Martin Style 1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7316322696&rd=1)

Washburn Style 175 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7316603906&rd=1)

Jim
I bought the Martin as a first mandolin.
It looks nicer in person (http://www.humanpackmule.com/mandolin) than in the ebay listing.

Prolly paid too much, I dunno, but I love it and I'm happy. I have some learning to do. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Martin Jonas]

Congratulations, Mlong623. It looks a lovely instrument. $400 doesn't sound too much to me for a vintage Martin in such a good condition (judging from the photos, anyway). Enjoy, and come and see us for advice on setup and finding your way around a mandolin! To start with, now might be a good time to get yourself a few sets of Lenzner (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=22821) strings.

Martin

[Eugene]

Congrats, Mlong623, and welcome to our little throng. I love the old Martins and I'm sure you'll enjoy this.

[trebleclef528]

QUOTE martinjonas
Does anybody have any particular thoughts on this unlabelled recent mandola on Ebay Germany?


Hi Martin, ..... some info from my German connections.....
They had been sold under the german GEWA label, masterwork from Mittemwald (and as Victor says) also with the italian Miroglio Figli brand.

They are made in Czechoslavakia, not too bad, medium quality, good for starter mandola, nice Embergher look.

The german/italian type mandola has a very short scale for GDAE tuning. Irish mandola GDAE is with a much longer scale, i think.
There are different kind of strings available for long or short scales.
Regards to all,
Ian

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks Ian -- that's very helpful in getting an idea. I'm not terribly keen on this one, but after watching much nicer Calace and Suzuki mandolas go up to around 600 Euro in the past couple of weeks, this may be what I should look at for a playable workaday bowlback mandola for 200 Euro or less. I see that there is now a bidder anyway, so even this one may not stay in that vicinity.

I already have an Irish GDAE bouzouki with a 66cm scale length, a third more than this one. I really feel this one is intended for CGDA; it's so short for GDAE.

Martin

[Mlong623]

Thanks.
I did some digging around and saw two other style 1 Martins for sale online between 600 and 800 and neither looked better than mine so I guess I did ok.

From what I can tell the action is reasonably low but I'm not experienced enough to know if the setup is where it ought to be. I went and got a tuner the night it arrived.

I've seen the discussion about the Lenzners. Kinda spendy strings, but hey if they deliver...

[Eugene]

Lenzner's consort strings sound very nice on my favorite Martin, but at the respective prices, I favor Dogal's "Calace" carbon stell, set RW-92b. They start life rather harshly, but quickly mellow with play, and I really like the focus of their tone when mature. The Lenzners are fairly long-lived, especially for bronze-wound strings, but their light, wound a' is not nearly as long-lived as the Dogal steel. Dogals live practically forever.

[Jim Garber]

Well the 1927 Calace (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7317899485&rd=1) went for a respectable but not outrageous price. I suppose part of it might have been scaring away bidders from outside of Germany. At least i have a sense of what I need th have moentarily to compete in this market.

That was a sweet-looking one, esp with the engraved pearl inlays on the scratchplate. I would also hope that it sounded pretty good.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here is a 1903 Martin Style 2 (http://www.yournextaxe.com/forsalepages/1903mandolin.htm) for non-ebay sale. This was the listing I found on mugwumps classified:

1903 Martin Bowl #2, exc cond. One ding. Missing tp cover. Brazilian rosewood, spruce, maple & ebony. $850 firm. Email Kevin Carroll or call 717.295.7077 . 04/15/05r

There is a rather extensive description at the link above. It does need some work, but might be a good bet for a nice American bowlback.

Jim

[Eugene]

As much as I like Martins, I think the price seems a bit steep for condition on the style 2. This more than doubles the cost of the near-pristine style 1 discussed above. I don't believe Martin ever used "genuine tortoise shell" on mandolins. In addition to the problems listed, it also has a rather ugly replacement bridge that is nothing like the original would have been.

[Jim Garber]

Tho this seller of the Martin says price is firm, I am sure that some reasonable offers can be made esp explaining the work that needs to be done. This would be esp true esp after the ad gets no or little response.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I didn't go for the modern mandola, but I did try for this (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=6527439399&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) wreck. No complaints about being outbid, I guess -- I was rather torn on whether I wanted to burden myself with a basket case or not. The missing hardware might be relatively easy to replace, but I wasn't too sure about the neck joint nor about exactly what the separations between the top and the bowl were about. Probably better left to leuterius.

Martin

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi,

At eBay Germany there has come up for auction #this 24 Fretboard Puglisi . (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=21591&item=6529314465&rd=1)


Greetings,

Alex

[Alex Timmerman]

And just when you think you have seen almost everything, there is this at eBay Italy... (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2385&item=7319139423&rd=1)


Cheers,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

And just when you think you have seen almost everything, there is this at eBay Italy... (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2385&item=7319139423&rd=1)


Cheers,

Alex
Not exactly a bowlback, but nevertheless interesting, Alex. Do you know of the maker?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

This Wolverine (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7319464292), American bowlback, is interesting. I never heard of the maker. Too bad the seller closed the auction down -- I hate when they do that.

Jim

[Eugene]

Wow! I love the scrathcplate inlay and satinwood binding. As common as it was in Italy, I don't recall ever seeing the latter feature on an American mandolin. #Mike Holmes lists Wolverine as a brand name of the Grinnell Brothers, but then offers no info on Grinnell. #So I went on a little online hunt to find this on Grinnell Brothers Music (http://www.woodwardheritage.com/historicalsites/grinnell.brothers.music.html), Ann Arbor/Detroit/Pontiac, MI and this whole site dedicated to the Grinnells (http://www.grinnellfamily.org/) in general. #They appear to have begun manufaxcturing their own line of pianos in 1901, and there is a good deal of online chat surrounding them.

[Jim Garber]

WEell, nothing too out of the ordinary, but, hallelujah! I won this DeMeglio (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7318684595). I think from the descriptions and photos that it is in opretty decent shape. It would be nice to have a vintage Italian one in playable condition. We will see.

There was a scare intially as the bids rose higher and then the high bidders scammees started posting seriously negative feedback. I (and others) informed the seller and she cancelled this guys bids. So the price I am paying is semi-reasonable these days.

more details when i get this thing.

Jim

[guitharsis]

Congrats, Jim!

It looks really nice. It has all original parts looks like.
Like the decorative headstock too. Haven't seen one like that in all the ones I've looked at.

Think you'll be pleased with the sound and the playability. Now you and I both have a Stridente and a DeMeglio.

Doreen

[Jim Garber]

Like the decorative headstock too. #Haven't seen one like that in all the ones I've looked at.
I haven't seen one with that either. The only times I have seen that metal flower plate is on Ceccherinis. There must be some relationship between the ateliers DeMeglio and Ceccherini. Or esle anyone could buy those metal flowers at the local store and glue or tack them on.

Jim

[Eugene]

Congrats, Jim. It looks mighty tasty.

[Jonathan Rudie]

Congratulations Jim! #I know you have been hunting for a sweet Italian Bowlback for quite sometime and I hope this is a winner.

Jonathan R.

[Martin Jonas]

Looks good to me, too, Jim -- congratulations! I haven't seen the flower, but my Rinaldi has a different aluminium decoration on the headstock. It's nailed on, and from the photos I think your flower is as well. To be frank, it looks pretty cheap and downmarket to modern sensibilities, but at the time would have been cutting edge -- aluminium had only just been discovered and was the miracle material of the age, so putting it on as decoration would have seemed daring and innovative. But, of course, it's all part of the period charm, and the de Meglio it's on is in fine fettle and should be fun.

Martin

[Alex Timmerman]

Looks very nice Jim. And even with original sleeve-guard. Welcome in the De Meglio circle http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif!

Best,

Alex

[etbarbaric]

Congrats Jim,

Just FYI... I have a DeMeglio with the little decorative flower plate on the headstock. When I first got it I was sure it was an after-market addition... but I've seen several since. I wouldn't call it refined exactly... but it does appear to have been original equipment.

Eric

[Jim Garber]

Thanks to all for your good wishes. Perhaps when we all gather at our geographic center (somewhere in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean) we can all play in the all Demeglio orchestra, with aluminum flowers in our lapels.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

The ornate Mandolin by the Wolverine B & W company has been taken out of the Ebay auction. I hope someone got it who knows to value the American bowlback histrory. A really nice instrument and still in a very nice condition.

By the way; the wonderful Mother of Pearl inly around the sound table was also used by Maldura and De Santis on their mandolins and mandolas. And seen in early Luigi Embergher mandolins.


Greetings,

Alex

[vkioulaphides]

Congrats, Jim! Yes, looks sweet and healthy; enjoy!

[Linda Binder]

Congratulations Jim! It looks to be in fine shape. Wait....there's no case! Oh no! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif (an ongoing source of amusement for bowlback owners in America.)
Don't forget to send baby pictures when she arrives.
--Linda

[Martin Jonas]

Three Puglisis (one (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7319542161&rd=1), two (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7318884011&rd=1) and three (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7319914797&rd=1)). The first one is interesting in having a de Meglio-style string downholder, a fretboard extension and a compensated bone/ivory bridge, none of which are standard for Puglisis as far as I can see. Looks very de Meglio in overall design, including the scratchplate (no vine inlay, though).

Also another alievo di Vinaccia: Pasquale d'Isanto (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7319030553&rd=1), on this one curiously without his partner-in-crime Angara. Maybe they had split up by 1903.

Stridente (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7320707473&rd=1).

Finally, this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7320636077&rd=1) one may have started out life as a de Meglio and has then gone psychedelic at some stage. A luthier building an "updated" de Meglio from scratch or an aftermarket customisation? Who knows. From the description it sound like the seller himself may be responsible for some butchery on this one.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Yes, there is no case, however I have my sources for thesxe smaller mandolins. The hard part is finding cases for the likes of the Pandini. Which reminds me...

Jim

[Jim Garber]

This Wolverine (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7319464292), American bowlback, is interesting. I never heard of the maker. Too bad the seller closed the auction down -- I hate when they do that.
I beat you on noting this one, Alex http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

However, it is insteresting your noting the simililarity in inlay. I did get an Italian feel from this one. Too bad they aborted it...

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Just staring at a Lenzner pkg. Any clue what make of mandolin that is? I assume German. Sort of Calace or Christofaro clone?

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Herwiga.

Isn`t it "bronze" instead of "bronce"?

[Dan K]

Hi folks! I thought I would try to tap your collective experience again. For those of you who have had a luthier work on an old mandolin, what might one expect to pay to have a top crack repaired. I imagine there is a relationship between cost and the depth and length of the crack, but do you have a ballpark? Also, what do you know about the crematone line of the washburns?

BTW, this is unrelated to the mandolin I just got. Unfortunately, it seems to have been damaged in transit so the seller is going to have to duke it out with the Canadian postal service. The damage was not really extensive, but we both agree that I didn't get what I paid for. Bummer.

Thanks!

Dan

[Jim Garber]

Dan:
Welcome back to our loittle corner of the Cafe.

Asa far as crack repair, it depends on a number of things: where the crack is on the body; if the crack is separated and/or the top has warped; where you are located (what the market will bear for luthier fees) and the skill and reputation of the repair person. I would say that generally $75-100 for a moderate crack is reasonable, but i am in the Northeast and I go to the best guys I can find. As they say, your mileage may vary...

The Washburn line is called Cremonatone after the city in Italy known for violins. I am not sure if this was a complete line or just a way for Washburn to make their image even more upscale. Perhaps the other L&H experts will chime in.

Jim

[Eugene]

Hi folks! #I thought I would try to tap your collective experience again. #For those of you who have had a luthier work on an old mandolin, what might one expect to pay to have a top crack repaired. #I imagine there is a relationship between cost and the depth and length of the crack, but do you have a ballpark? #Also, what do you know about the crematone line of the washburns?
Too bad to hear of your mando's trials. #Top cracks shouldn't be a big problem, but the cost will vary depending on how bad it is and who you know. #It could be as little as $20 or as much as much much more. #If there is substantial separation and rehydration or splinting/splining is required, it can get to be a farily major job. #My advice is to ask a luthier or two who you trust to look at the piece and offer a fair estimate.

Cremonatone was just a fabricated word that Lyon & Healy used on the labels of their Washburn line of mandolins until ca. 1910 to invoke the hypothetical tone quality of the mandolin mother land, Italy.

[Jim Garber]

Cremonatone was just a fabricated word that Lyon & Healy used on the labels of their Washburn line of mandolins until ca. 1910 to invoke the hypothetical tone quality of the mandolin mother land.
I had a feeling that was the case, Eugene. There is no mention of the term, BTW, in any of my catalogs. I have only seen it on the labels and usually on a separate one, not on the main label.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Plamen, yes, both in English and in German, "bronze". I, too, wonder about the curious, "bronce" spelling; doubly so because the word is, of course, spelled correctly in the description below, in German.

It may be a deliberately misspelled "trademark" of this type of strings. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Martin Jonas]

I suspect it may be some mistaken believe by Lenzner that "bronce" is the correct English spelling. German "English" is not always the same as the real thing -- note the widespread belief that the correct English word for "mobile phone" is "Handy" or that the word "City" refers specifically to the main central shopping district.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

A slightly risqué photograph of two American celebrities in a German-language magazine was once hilariously provided with a legend describing their, ehm... cozy dance-figures as "check-to-check". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Of course, Tennis Magazine got the record straight, when they pictured Ivan Lendl treading the dance-floor with Martina Navratilova in a similar —yet unmistakably UNcomfortable— bodily posture.

Go figure...

OK, back to the topic! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Dan K]

I see. The damage was not terrible on the mandolin, so hopefullly it won't be too expensive. However, as you can probably imagine, my bowlback itch has not been entirely scratched. So I keep looking around on ebay. I am not sure what my wife will say, but I am willing to risk it. This (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7320876145&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1) is the cremonatone. I don't know if that is an inflated price considering it is cracked, but if the price doesn't go up too much it may be worth it

[Eugene]

The price seems fair, but only fair given the two top cracks. It also appears as though the binding is missing from the terminus of the fingerboard. I love the mandolin-horn-manuscript scroll inlay in the scratchplate. If this one slips by, fear not; 1890s-1910s Washburn mandolins are massively abundant. Many are still relatively healthy.

[Jim Garber]

Strange that the seller does not provide overall pics front and back of the mandolin. I think he/she got so into the details that she/he forgot to give us a complete view.

Looks pretty nice. If you have a luthier you can trust, show it to him/her and get an estimate. Of course, you must bear in mind that, as many of us have learned over the years of getting these bowlbacks, they almost often need some set up work to make them completely playable. So you can add some more $$ for that, no matter what mandolin you get.

BTW I just checked in my catalogs and this is a model number 150 from 1890s. Description and scan to follow.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here is the model 150. Please excuse the quality as it comes from a photocopy of a catalog.

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Thanks Victor and Martin!

Most probably it`s a mistake. I`m just not quite sure in my own knowledge about the spelling of some words and such things make me doubt in me. I doubt any patent office in the world would register such a trademark. I always like your stories, Victor! # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif #You have always a story for everything!

Good luck!

[onthefiddle]

Hi Dan,

As Jim and Eugene have explained - the cost of a crack repair can vary quite widely. Thankfully Mandolins can't suffer from soundpost cracks and so costs won't go that high!

Repair estimates are time based, a typical shop rate in Canada is about $60 CDN an hour, though you might get a lower rate dealing directly with a luthier, who won't have the same overheads as a shop. You may find someone who will charge considerably less, but it's important to bare in mind that it is a lot more expensive to have poor repair work undone and then redone properly, than it is to simply have it done well in the first place (i.e. good repair work will take a certain amount of time - if someone is exceptionally cheap how are they cutting that time down?)

The other important factor affecting the cost of a crack repair, beyond the factors already raised by yourself, Jim and Eugene, is the condition of the crack. Is it fresh, clean and sharp or old, dirty and worn/missing fibres? The latter case will obviously take longer to repair invisibly. If it has been badly repaired before then you will also have to factor in the cost of undoing the old work. In that case there will often be rounded edges/missing wood to contend with also (from the previous work). If any of your instruments ever develop a crack - avoid the temptation to touch it, and get it repaired as soon as possible - it will cost you less and have a higher chance of achieving an invisible repair.

I would check out the reputation of anyone you consider taking an instrument to. I would completely avoid anyone who wanted to refinish an instrument or replace the front (except in truly exceptional cases) - these are both "techniques" that were discredited about 150 years ago. Both of these are irreversible and so affect the value of the instrument. The same can also be true of splints, where it is common to saw into the crack before fitting the new wood. I would be very wary of anyone who wants to put a splint into a crack - it is extremely rare for this to be necessary, I've yet to find a crack that I couldn't repair using other more effective techniques. Ideally only reversible techniques should be used - this includes the use of hide glue - there are people out there using crazy/super glue, PVA and even epoxy.

Regarding finish repairs - bowlbacks are normally particularly easy to retouch, so this type of repair (which can be part of a crack repair) shouldn't be expensive.

Good luck in your hunt!

Jon

[Eugene]

I had a feeling that was the case, Eugene. There is no mention of the term, BTW, in any of my catalogs. I have only seen it on the labels and usually on a separate one, not on the main label.
I think some of the labels went so far as to say "Only Washburn has the 'Cremonatone'" or words to that effect. This strikes me as a rather odd statement in that if only Washburn and no Italian mandolins had it, wouldn't it be that olde "Chicagotone?"

[onthefiddle]

It looks like everyone (rich enough) has been wasting their money on these old Strads, Guarneris, Amatis etc...

For $15 (+ inflation) you too can have the Cremona Tone! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jon

[etbarbaric]

I cultivated my ear once... but it eventually got better...

[onthefiddle]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7323023154&rd=1) is something rather unusual - the rose seems to be made up of a random collection of offcuts, from a variety of different designs, set in black mastic.

Jon

[Eugene]

That left-over-bits-of-pearl-scraps-set-in-mastic-style rosette was pretty common to mandolins from Catania, particularly Puglisi. However, the Puglisi mandolins seem to have been a little more selective for finer scraps.

[Plamen Ivanov]

That left-over-bits-of-pearl-scraps-set-in-mastic-style rosette was pretty common to mandolins from Catania, particularly Puglisi. #However, the Puglisi mandolins seem to have been a little more selective for finer scraps.


Right. And as you suspect this one doesn`t seem to be a "Puglisi" though.

Martin, I saw your post about the three "Puglisi"s a little bit late. The "de Meglio"-like is very interesting! Thanks for paying our attention to it! Unfortunately I cannot see, if there are the typical for "de Meglio" mandolins side holes. It would be interesting to know.

Good luck!
Plamen

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Plami,

Here again a 24-fret finger board PUGLISI REALE&FIGLI dated 1925.

Something for you? (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=7321678323&rd=1)

I am in doubt where this mandolin is at the moment or will be shipped from, since it says: "Item location: CHARLESTON,S.CAROLINA United States" and "The instrument will be shipped from Bulgaria."... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif.

But it´s nice to see photos of it.


Best,

Alex

[prayerbone]

hi all i placed some info about a mandolin on ebay on a new topic under the title ebay..should of gone here i guess sorry..if any mods want to delete that thread its fine it went for £42 seemed ok price but i dont know much and was worried about going to high...aj

[Jim Garber]

Something for you? (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=7321678323&rd=1)

I am in doubt where this mandolin is at the moment or will be shipped from, since it says: "Item location: #CHARLESTON,S.CAROLINA United States" and "The instrument will be shipped from Bulgaria."... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif.
I love that inlay on the pickguard but that Bulgarian connection makes me nervous.

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello Alex and Jim,

Thanks for paying attention to this one! The instrument looks interesting - another different Puglisi. It seems to be in a good condition, but the starting bid is too high IMHO. I`d guess the item is located in Bulgaria and the seller might be a Bulgarian or an American from Bulgarian origin living in the US. I see he is selling traditional Bulgarian items. Most probably he is just organizing the sells and the products are located here. The seller seems to be a trustworthy guy, so the "Shipping from Bulgaria" system also seems to work properly. I think, there`s no reason to get nervous. I don`t know this guy and I don`t have any financial interest in what he is doing. Just on contrary - he is a competitor of mine, as far as I`m trying to sell traditional Bulgarian Craft products as well.

So many different Puglisis! What I want to see is a flatback Puglisi mandolin. I have just heard about that, but never seen one.

Good luck!
Plamen

[Jim Garber]

Marco is selling this mandolin by Carlo Martello (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7323110732) that seem to have some semblance -- in the headstock and the side vents -- to the Demeglio family. I love that graceful string tensioner.

Somehow we will eventually connect all these DeMeglio clones. Was Demeglio a large factory or a very efficient small shop. Anybody have a clue? Is there a listing somewhere of patents for the "sistema Demeglio"?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Embergher clone by Giuseppe Cesolari (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7322521203). This one looks particularly nice with what looks like 29 fret fretboard.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Plamen,

Are you perhaps looking for something like this? (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7322359832&rd=1)

It looks like a quality mandolin made by a fine luthier.


Best, Alex

[Bob A]

The Cesolari has an interesting bit of compensation built into the bridge.

[Bob A]

While I suspect most posters here check out the classifieds, Marco Onorati has listed a 1909 Vinaccia, as well as a more contemporary Calace mandolin and liuto cantabile.

[trebleclef528]

AWARD FOR HERR KNORR - I see that Claus Knorr has won the highest award in Germany for his "La Gioiosa" bowlback mandolin...........little wonder he has a two year waiting list details as follow: (you can see his website here (http://www.knorr-mandolinen.de/))

German Musical Instrument Prize for 2005

The Highest German Award for Musical Instruments in the Category Mandolin

This Prize is awarded by the Federal Ministry of Industry and Labour in recognition of outstanding products in the musical instrument field.

The winner of the plucked string instrument section, the soloist model mandolin "La Gioiosa", is a masterpiece of the firm Klaus Knorr Plucked String Instruments of Erlbach in Saxony.

The overall evaluation stated: The prize-winning mandolin is characterized by a very beautiful and evenly-balanced timbre. In addition, the sound is clear and open and enables exceptional articulation. The tonal response of the lower strings is remarkable, as is the brilliance of the upper registers. Musicians praise the consistency throughout all positions. The workmanship is very good and the instrument has a pleasing form.

The soloist model mandolin "La Gioiosa" was judged as very good in all categories.

[Jim Garber]

That "joyous" instrument sounds wonderful in the hands of Gertrud Weyhofen.

Jim

[Bob A]

I rec'd an email the other day from those reticent folks at music-treasures.com, the same people that have a CD with 31 mandolins from the 17th century thru 1933. Apparently the collection is (finally) up for sale; I understood that they'd be selling individual instruments. When I checked their website I was unable to find details of such trivia as price, although I understood that such info was available. I emailed them about the question, but have not rec'd an answer. If anyone else is able to elicit info please pass it on.

[Jim Garber]

Bob:
It is a little confusing. They have a few single mandolins for sale under "mandolins". The ones you are referring to is under "mandolin collection".

Here is what Roger wrote me some time ago:

We prefer to sell the mandolins as a whole collection. If we can't find a buyer during our spring sale (end of May 2005), we are probably going to sell them individually, maybe through a reputable musical instrument dealer in the US.


It is very odd that these collectors want to sell their collections as a unit. I suppose it is easier to get that lump of cash. On the other hand, I have a feeling that it makes them feel like they are museum curators -- there is some ego involved as well.

In any case, these are some interesting mandolins for sure.

Jim

[etbarbaric]

I have the CD and there are some pretty instruments in the collection. Just a heads-up... A couple of the 18th century instruments that they list as "important" are probably not. Obviously, the interpretation of the date of 1665 for the one Neapolitan mandolin label is somewhat doubtful :-)

Another is labeled (on a printed label!) as by "Joannes Vinaccio" and it is obviously a Mandolino Genovese (a model not favored by the Vinaccias) that has been chopped and carved up to function as a Neapolitan mandolin.

Caveat emptor!

Eric

[Eugene]

I have the CD and there are some pretty instruments in the collection. Just a heads-up... A couple of the 18th century instruments that they list as "important" are probably not. Obviously, the interpretation of the date of 1665 for the one Neapolitan mandolin label is somewhat doubtful :-)

Another is labeled (on a printed label!) as by "Joannes Vinaccio" and it is obviously a Mandolino Genovese (a model not favored by the Vinaccias) that has been chopped and carved up to function as a Neapolitan mandolin.
I had some correspondence with them on these very topics back when they first assembled that CD. #1665!? #Puhhhlease.

Yeah, I got the same e-mail a couple days ago, Bob. #(I've been out of town, but will reply to e-mail soon, Jim.)

[Jim Garber]

My Demeglio (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7318684595) has finally arrived. Here are my initial impressions:

Seems to be just what I expected. No cracks (!) that I can see. I just took off the strings and the tuners are a little stiff especially one, so I may take the plates off the tuners and check them out to see what is going on before I string it up.

The body has scratches but, once again, no cracks. I will give it a light cleaning and after, looking at the tuners, string it up with Lenzner Consorts. So far, so good. I am looking fwd to hearing and playing this thing.

Oh, and two other pleasant things: the string cover is in great shape and the plectrum that came with it seems to be real tortoise and a nice thick one at that. It sounds wonderful tho may need a bit of dressing.

Altogether, so far, I am quite happy. Of course, I have to see how the neck angle works, etc. I hope that it comes together and plays well without a visit to the mandoctor. That would be a welcome change.

I will post pics on the Post a Picture thread when I get a chance.

Jim

[Eugene]

As always, you are an enviable soul, Jim.

[Alex Timmerman]

I´ll 2nd that, Eugene!

Congrats Jim, your De Meglio looks beautiful!


Best,

Alex

[prayerbone]

hi jim congratulation's thats a lovely mandolin!
iam new to the mandolin have a eastman 515 and try and play old time.but more and more iam finding the classical section my first port of call.. u people really know ur stuff..aj

[Alex Timmerman]

Welcome and Greetings from Holland, Andy http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[onthefiddle]

Congratualtions Jim, that's a very nice example - I think I need a green covetous smiley! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Andy - where are you based? There are a number of us in the UK here.

Jon

[prayerbone]

hi iam in southampton Jon u?any advice for a tutor book for classical mandolin..my eastman ok for playing classical i'd guess ? aj

[Jim Garber]

Thanks all! I put a little silicon spray on the tuners and they eased up nicely. I strung it up and I now see what folks are talking up about that echo effect. Very different than my Pandini, but equally pleasurable for a different sound palette.

Any clue what these tuning pegs are made of? I have never seen ones like these.

Jim

[etbarbaric]

Hi Jim,

I believe they are bone... perhaps dyed bone. Several of my instruments have similar pegs. Very pretty things...

Eric

[Jim Garber]

Thanks, Eric. They did look like some sort of organic substance.

BTW, for you other Demeglio owners: my label has a model number: it looks like B [1/A] (written just that way with the brackets. It would be nice to compile a listing of models. Has anyone seen any catalogues, ads or even patents for the Sistema Demeglio?

Jim

[onthefiddle]

Hi Andy,

I'm near Cambridge.

"The Bickford Mandolin Method" is a very good tutor book, particularly if you don't have a teacher, which many of us don't. The first two volumes are available as ebooks from djangobooks.com (http://www.djangobooks.com/archives/2004/05/04/new_ebook_the_bickford_mandolin_method.html)

If you do a search in this area of the cafe for "tutor" or "method" you'll find a number of threads discussing this. Other notable methods are Cristofaro (also available from djangobooks), Silvio Ranieri's method - the first two volumes of which are available from Trekel (http://www.trekel.de/englisch/index.html) (who are an important source of sheet music for the mandolin), Pettine's method is also highly regarded, though I'm not sure where it's available from currently. There are a number of other good methods, many of which are available from Trekel, but Bickford is a particularly good place to start if you don't have a teacher - he goes into more detail than most on such things as holding the instrument and the plectrum for instance, though his is certainly not the only approach.


my eastman ok for playing classical i'd guess ?
Of course - Bickford actually refers to the "violin or flat model", though many of us here may feel that those flat instruments are a bit hard to hold (How do you keep hold of something that thin? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ) - Only joking! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Are you familiar with the music of Simon Mayor (http://www.mandolin.co.uk/)? He has a lot of classical music in his repertoire - all played on an arch topped instrument.

Jon

[onthefiddle]

Not a bowlback, and not really of note - but I though it might amuse some here. Actually, this looks more like it might have been the result of a dull Friday afternoon in the Gotz factory:

Take one large Viola ribstructure, attach a flat front and back - being careful to give the soundboard a particularly bizarre pair of f-holes, add a couple more soundholes for good measure, attach a mandolin neck, and you have a....? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=21591&item=6533976981&rd=1)

Jon

[prayerbone]

hi,i know i knowwwwww but i couldnt resist it ..i won the pollman,i just fell in love with it,will go with the pollman banjola lol!
thks for info on tutor jon....aj

[Eugene]

Congrats...and welcome to "The Order."

[Jim Garber]

Excellent aj! Nice to keep it in the "family". Please report back when you have it in hand.

BTW This thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185) is the sister to this one which we use for posting pics of our bowlback acquisitions.

I have pics of my Demeglio up there right now.

Jim

[trebleclef528]

Wow!
Congratulations Jim......... It looked like a goody from the auction, but looks 10 times better in your photos.

I've had similar pegs on a few mandolins and it was suggested to me that they may be a type of horn.

I'm really pleased that the De Meg looks and hopefully plays well........... worth waiting for me thinks!
Ian

[Martin Jonas]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7324857933&rd=1)'s an intriguing bowlback -- English luthier, clearly inspired by de Meglio, but with a vast amount of decoration added, including a fluted back with silver (real, according to seller) rib separators and a tortoiseshell overlay to the entire headstock. May of course come into the pigs-with-lipstick category and in any case has some serious structural issues.

Martin

[onthefiddle]

Hi Martin!

I'm discussing some of the issues that this instrument may have with the seller (via email). It has turned out that I know of him, by reputation, so I should be able to trust his opinion. You're right that this will need some fairly major work to restore it to structural stability and its full former glory, but it looks worthwhile to me.
Does anyone have any knowledge of J.G.Winder? I haven't come across him before.

Jon

P.S. Andy - Congratulations on winning the Pollman! I don't think there are many of us with American bowlbacks on this side of the pond.

[Martin Jonas]

Jon -- there's a bit of information on the maker here (http://www.whitetreeaz.com/vintage/brit4.htm), although this concentrates on the banjos. The outfit appears to have had some degree of continuity, being identifiable in 1886, 1910 and 1963 (although I wonder whether this last date may be a typo for 1903).

Martin

[onthefiddle]

Very interesting Martin - it appears that it may well be English then. I was wondering if it had been imported and then re-labelled by a dealer of that name. I think you're right - 1963=1903, he may have been older than the exceptionally long lived Antonio Stradivari if he was still making in 1963.

Jon

[Jim Garber]

Lookig at this Winder mandolin, I would say that its details are so close to standard Demeglios #that it was prob made by Demeglio under Winder's name. Even the stamp near the tensioner which I thought would say "sistema" mimics the Demeglio one.

Too bad the top is in bad shape -- that wicked warp -- tho I imagine that given the fanciness of this one, it may be worth the money it would cost to restore.

Jon or Martin... one of you should go for this one.
Jim

[onthefiddle]

I'm interested, as long as the price reflects the work that is needed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

One possible difference I can see from the standard de Meglios is the side ports in the ribs - does it have any? It could be that they are not visible because they are hidden by the darkness of the ebony ribs.

Jon

[Martin Jonas]

All yours, Jon, as far as I'm concerned. I'm intrigued, but don't really need the hassle of trying to sort out that repair.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Charles Johnson has a nice looking Martin 000 bowlback (http://www.vintagemandolin.com/20martinbowlback502027.html) for sale. He is asking $300. Might be a good one for someone to be initiated into the order.

Jim

[prayerbone]

hi,hows the back made on that Jim? it looks like one pieces http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif aj

[Jim Garber]

According to the Longworth Martin book, this model had 9 mahogany ribs. However, this is a late one and might have been a custom order. I think there are ribs but they are not separated by a contrasting strip and may have even been smoothed to look like one piece.

Jim

[Eugene]

Exactly. Martin's mahogany bowls did not sport contrasting spacers. When the bowl got its final shaping, the seams essentially disappeared through camouflage in the grain lines. You have to really look, but the seams between ribs are there.

[prayerbone]

thks for the replys..out of interest are there one piece backs made if yes any pics? aj

[onthefiddle]

Hi Andy,

It depends on what you mean. I haven't seen a Neapolitan with a one piece back, though I suppose some sort of laminated pressed back made from constructional veneers might be possible, though it would only be used for very low end instruments. I haven't seen that though. I have seen one piece fibreglass(?) bowls on very low end greek instruments, and if you search through the archives here you may find references to instruments with aluminium bowls (obviously one piece again).
For one piece backs of wood you really need to go back to the 17th century and earlier. Hopefully I have managed to link to an image at the V&A website showing the decoratively carved back of an instrument signed Boissart 1640. If the link to the image doesn't work you could try clicking here (http://images.vam.ac.uk/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXSESSION_=&submit-button=SUMMARY&_IXIMAGE_=sch200412083174-007&_IXSS_=*sform=search_form&_IXMAXHITS_=15&_IXDB_=default&$=IXALL=mandore&_IXSESSION_=&_IXSR_=xb1&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHITS_=1&_IXSPFX_=full/t&_IXFPFX_=full/t).

Jon

http://images.vam.ac.uk/images/photo/sch/20041208/high/3174-007.jpg

[Eugene]

There was a character somewhere in Latin America (I believe) building Neapolitan-like mandolins out of a bowl carved from a singular lump of wood. #I don't recall the name or url, but he did have a web site. #This is also a common practice in charango manufacture now that the hollowing out of armadillos is frowned upon. #Some middle-eastern long-necked lutes (like saz) are still built this way. #It results in a whole lot of grain runout so is usually considered a rather primitive technique for bowl construction. #Kind of like comparing cedar-strip to dugout canoes, eh?

[Jim Garber]

Joe Todaro (http://www.worldfrets.com/todaro_mandolin.html) imports these from a maker in Bolivia. I bought a nice charango from Joe years ago at the Phildelphia Guitar Show.

Joe had a table at CMSA last fall and had these mandolins but I am sorry to say that I never got to play one. They look interesting, tho not all that inexpensive.

Jim

[Eugene]

Thanks, Jim.

[prayerbone]

thks for the info cool pic as well..i was at the v & a last year its a great museum..my mum makes quilts so it was treat for her birthday,i got away from the quilts long enough to see the musical instrument lol..its a bit of a maze there,i still feel i missed loads..a trip's in order!! maybe a uk madolin cafe members trip?? aj

[etbarbaric]

Thanks very much for the Boissart image Jon. I have always wanted to see that instrument. It wasn't on display when I was last at the V&A... it is surely a stunner!

Best,

Eric

[Bob A]

One-piece back bowlback? Look for the aluminum-bodied Merrill.

[Jim Garber]

One-piece back bowlback? Look for the aluminum-bodied Merrill.
Here ya go...

[prayerbone]

wowee hows that sound compared to the resonators??aj

[Jim Garber]

Tinny....er... aluminummy...

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Jim Garber]

This 1931 Calace (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7326320466) marks the selling off of a rather large collection of instruments. This is the seller on eBay who sells a CD of his collection. Starting bid for this is $6000. I wonder how it will go.

Nice Martin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=7326275843) at a semi reasonable starting price.

Seller's list (http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZtetraQ2db)


Jim

[prayerbone]

hi ive been reading a lot about bowlbacks since this forum as cast its magical charms! i just discovered the Calace webpage... are Calace's the loars of bowlbacks??? aj

[Jim Garber]

aj:
Calaces in general are among the most desirable. I would not say like a Loar: their prices, even for the most desirable vintage ones are still in 4 figures (euros, dollar and pounds) for the most part.

I have played a few of the newer ones, notably Victor's, and they are fine instruments for the money. There is still pride in the family legacy.

Just as background the big three of Italian vintage bowlbacks: Calace, Vinaccia and Embergher. Of the last one, Alex has a wonderfully informative Web page here (http://www.embergher.com).

Jim

[Arto]

About carved-out construction:
"This is also a common practice in charango manufacture now that the hollowing out of armadillos is frowned upon. #Some middle-eastern long-necked lutes (like saz) are still built this way. #It results in a whole lot of grain runout so is usually considered a rather primitive technique for bowl construction. #Kind of like comparing cedar-strip to dugout canoes, eh?"

Ronroco from BoliviaMall (http://www.boliviamall.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=413&products_id=4737)

I´d be very happy to have a dugout canoe with grain like this!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Arto

[onthefiddle]

Here's (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7324857933) an intriguing bowlback -- English luthier, clearly inspired by de Meglio, but with a vast amount of decoration added, including a fluted back with silver (real, according to seller) rib separators and a tortoiseshell overlay to the entire headstock. May of course come into the pigs-with-lipstick category and in any case has some serious structural issues.

Martin

Bidding exceeded my limit a couple of minutes before the end, so I never got to snipe. Oh well - that's a lot of work that I won't have to do! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jon

[onthefiddle]

Ian (trebleclef) has a fluted back Suzuki (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7326284833&rd=1) for sale. A friend of mine had one of these, and it did sound a lot better than a normal lower end Suzuki.

Jon

[etbarbaric]

This 1931 Calace marks the selling off of a rather large collection of instruments. This is the seller on eBay who sells a CD of his collection. Starting bid for this is $6000. I wonder how it will go.

Nice Martin at a semi reasonable starting price.

Seller's list


Hmmm... a long list, and not a bid to be seen. Me thinks he asks too much...

Eric

[prayerbone]

hi,thks for info Jim great site Alex..saw a few bowlbacks on uk ebay today..too many to link but might be some good ones.. there's a kisslinger,hasermann and tonelli to name a few..#aj

ps what u think of this one its at hanks in london £229..Carlo Ricordo bowl back 12 string mandolin. The strings are in 4 groups of 3 strings and the extra strings are tuned the same as the other 2 from the group of 3.

[prayerbone]

pic

[billkilpatrick]

jim - as lovely as it is, the one piece mandolin from Joe Todaro is in fact a two piece construction (excluding sound board). #if you look carefully you can see an ellipse shape on the neck where the peg board has been joined to the neck. #i used to think this grafting of a peg board onto a bowl and neck, single-piece construction was a way to salvage work that had been damaged during the making of the peg board. #now i think it actually adds strength to the instrument as a whole. #

a lovely instrument. #his double course, ukulele/charangos are also a thing of beauty.

- bill

[Jim Garber]

This (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7325130226) is a strange one: basic Demeglio design but no zero fret, Demeglio bridge or tensioner. The scratchplate looks like it is not bevelled like the Demglios but it does have the side vents.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Jim -- when I saw that one, I thought that's Stridente aiming for a slice of the de Meglio market. I think the only thing they changed from their normal layout are the scratchplate and the side vents (both fairly trivial alterations). We've previously speculated that these scratchplates, as used by de Meglio and Ceccherini, came out of a third-party workshop. They vary in terms of sophistication, but there is a certain common look and feel to them. The scratchplate on my Rinaldi also seems to be from the same workshop, but looking at the Stridente photos, I don't think that one is.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Speak of the Devil, Martin, here is another Rinaldi (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7326001057).

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Yes, Jon and I were discussing that one over in the photo thread. I think it's probably a sign that the varnish on mine is original after all, even though it's not like on the de Meglios. Maybe that was Rinaldi's contribution to the construction, or else a specification he made to the de Meglio workshop if they were made on commission.

Terrible bridge on that one, though -- luckily, my Rinaldi is in much better condition.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7325814604&rd=1) 1929 mandolin by M. Moretti in Rome has some rather appealing Embergher-like features and a very nice maple bowl with around 30 ribs. I've never heard of the luthier, but at the moment, the price is really very low. A bit worrying that it should have lost two frets, though. Interesting ondulating bridge saddle (for compensation?). I wonder if that's original.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

For thsoe who need replacement bridges, there are two nice-looking reproductions of a de Meglio (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7326669803&rd=1) style and a compensated Puglisi (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7326670703&rd=1) style bridge on Ebay at the moment. Starting bids are low, though postage seems rather high to me for such a small and light item. I think the seller has been seen here on the Cafe, when he was discussing repairs to an old de Meglio.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

This (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7326561321&rd=1) one is not actually a bowlback, but I thought it might intrigue connoisseurs of the unusual f-hole in this forum. Looks like the seller actually has two identical mandolins and wants to sell one of them off.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

prayerbone, I would steer clear of 12-stringers; entirely too much trouble to be worth it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

I have discussed my 2004 Calace at length elsewhere; perhaps the thread(s) can still be retrieved... Also, if you want better pictures than the indistinct images posted on Calace's webpage, I would be happy to e-mail you some of mine. If so, please drop me an MC-message or an email at home, i.e. vkioulaphides@earthlink.net

I have, generally speaking, humble tastes: my next-to-bottom-end (model Nº 26) Calace, for the money (+/- $1,000) is just fine for me. I have voiced doubt time and again that one gets "double" the tone-quality for twice the money. But, if money is not your primary constraint, sure, go for it and get a top-of-the-line "Classico A"; splurge on the wear-proof frets; splurge again on the natural MOP scratchplate... still, some $4,000 later, you won't be ANYwhere near as impoverished as you would have been if you were buying a Loar or, for that matter, ANY top-of-the-line carved instrument.

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. Oh, before I forget: once you DO get that Classico A, do post a review, won't you? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[onthefiddle]

This (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7326561321&rd=1) one is not actually a bowlback, but I thought it might intrigue connoisseurs of the unusual f-hole in this forum. Looks like the seller actually has two identical mandolins and wants to sell one of them off.

Martin

The Mandolin that the seller is keeping has a variation on "flaming sword" soundholes. These are most commonly encountered in the west on the Viola D'Amore, but have an older root as the flaming sword is the Islamic symbol for truth. It has certainly been proposed that rather than meaning "Viola of love" Viola D'Amore is a corruption of "Viola of the Moors".

Jon

[prayerbone]

hi.yeah was going to victor.. just thought i'd post it out of interest as iam new i thought it was kind of unusal..aj

ps after a late nite and loss of counting skills i also posted it in the 10 string thread duh #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Jim Garber]

The Mandolin that the seller is keeping has a variation on "flaming sword" soundholes. These are most commonly encountered in the west on the Viola D'Amore, but have an older root as the flaming sword is the Islamic symbol for truth. It has certainly been proposed that rather than meaning "Viola of love" Viola D'Amore is a corruption of "Viola of the Moors".
Interesting, Jon. I used to own a guitar-shaped violin stamped Guseto with similar soundholes. I was told it was from Mirecourt. The french have an interesting aesthetic in musical instrument design.

Jim

[prayerbone]

hi well my pollman came today..ive got to say its so sweettttttt..there really is something incredible about holding and playing a older mandolin,the feelings it conjures up about pass owners etc..it sounds wonderful to me very woody sound and mellow,iam stoked..
there's a few things that need to be addressed.. but most are very cosmetic,and i kind of like the lived in look..the two issues that need to be looked at are 1).the cracks you can see in pic (in pollman thread) which look massive in picture,are very fine in the flesh..2).the bridge is glued http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif ,iam pretty sure there NEVER glued, anyone know any differences about pollmans?the tunings pretty much dead on even down on the octave..i will borrow a friends camera later and post in pic thread..aj

[Jim Garber]

aj:
Congratulations and welcome to the Order of the Bowl.

Do you have someone who can work on this? It doesn't sound all that bad but that person should also be able to tell you want subtle adjustments to make to get the most of your new old mandolin.

Jim

[prayerbone]

hi Jim, no i dont at present..is there anyone you could recommend for the cracks and the bridge..any clue at what the cost would be.theres some surfaces damage on the top, but i dont think thats urgent just wear from play.. i guess theres a toss up between repair and making it look new (which i dont want)..your right about the order, man iam in love with the differences in sound from a bowlback..man this things is 125 years old and it blows me away awsome!!!!!!can u tell iam hooked lol #aj

[Jim Garber]

You don't need to make it new just have it repaired correctly. You are in the UK? Perhaps Jon, Martin, Ali or Ian have suggestionsas to who you can take it to.

I don't think it should cost too much unless there are other issues that we may not be aware of.

Jim

[guitharsis]

Looks like Bernunzio's added some bowlbacks to their inventory www.bernunzio.com

[Jim Garber]

Yet another "sistema Demeglio" bowlback under the Prowse (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7327630851) label.

Actually I took a closer look and it looks like a pretty std Demeglio except for the fact that the frets don't extend as close to the soundhole as others I have seen.

Jim

[Bob A]

While the 1931 Calace got no bids at 6K, the sellers have listed a Globo (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=7327903518&rd=1) for $300, which might be a good deal for someone.

They also listed another? Calace for 5 grand, and a bunch of previously unlisted instruments, including more mandolins.

[Jim Garber]

You can see the other Music Treasures mandolins for sale (outside of the "collection" from the CD) here (http://home.comcast.net/~MusicTreasures/mandolin.htm). That Demeglio might be all right and I have a feeling that he may be open to bargaining on that one. It was on eBay some time ago and did not sell. I like that Vinaccia mandola which sold supposedly for $12,000.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Bob -- I keep seeing "Il Globo" bowls on Ebay UK, but I have no idea where they fit into the overall quality range. Do you know more about them?

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I did a quick search of Il Globo and came across the John Alvey Turner (http://www.johnalveyturner.co.uk/page3.html) sitre which has one for sale for £185 and yet another Demeglio clone labelled Fratelli Bellini for £150. You can see pics of these two bowlbacks here (http://www.johnalveyturner.co.uk/page24.html).

BTW have any of you UK folks been to this store? I would think it is steeped in mandolin history.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Marco has a Maratea (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7328254460&rd=1) for sale which, unlike most of his listed prices, has a reasonably low starting bid and no reserve.

Another regular seller, "World of Mandolins" from Vienna, has an interesting, though anonymous, 1920s Calace clone (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7327838849&rd=1).

This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7328284267&rd=1) Disantino looks in decent shape.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

the 1931 Calace got no bids at 6K
Even tho they say they will not relist, this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7328447984) is the same Calace they now have listed for $5000.

Jim

[guitharsis]

Pamelas Music www.pamelasmusic.co.uk has a few bowlbacks.

243 for 175GBP looks to be a DeMeglio.

Very pleased with the Stridente I received last October. I love my DeMeglio but the Stridente is unique.

[Jim Garber]

Hard to tell by the photo but that tensioner on the Demeglio clone looks like it is positioned incorrectly which could be a serious problem or indicate one.
http://www.pamelasmusic.co.uk/images/Forsale/string/mandolins/M243f.JPG

Jim

[Bob A]

I've never played Globo, but have seen a few on the net.

Regarding the relisted Calace, they had two from 1931 on their CD, so the new one may well be different. Not having 5K available, I'm not inclined to look it up.

One wonders if any of the 400-bowlback collection will hit the market. Would do wonders for price reduction, I imagine.

[Jim Garber]

One wonders if any of the 400-bowlback collection will hit the market. Would do wonders for price reduction, I imagine.
I did ask about this, Bob, and he said that for the moment they are looking for a buyer for the whole collection. I suppose when that doesn't sell as a group they will break it up. I find itn so funny that collectors have this thing about keeping their collection together. Financially they would probably do better selling each individually. I don;t think I would care whether mine all stayed together or not, but i would like it all to be appreciated and played. They are, after, all like our children, right?

Jim

[guitharsis]

Jim,

I've seen that photo before. She uses the same one for many of the DeMeglio or clones.

Doreen

[Martin Jonas]

That de Meglio-clone photo is rather peculiar. Apart from the downholder, which is too chunky and far too far back, both the pickguard and the fret markers (but not the headstock) look much more like Ceccherini than like de Meglio.

Martin

[guitharsis]

That particular deMeglio clone is probably long gone. #She used that same photo for three deMeglio mandolins she had last year. #

Doreen

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

Here a 1897 Fratelli (Nic & Raf) Calace; an exceptional bowlback of note!

Click here to find it on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=7329256409&rd=1)


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

That one is an undertated beauty. Too bad I am taped out whenever these appear. I have to sell off some to replenish the intrument fund so I can get one of these beauties.

So, any idea of the final hammer price on this one? I say €3000-4000.

Jim

[Bob A]

Considering the lack of interest in the two MusicTreasures Calaces, both (if indeed there are two) fancier than this, I'd go low. Also, I suspect (more or less without grounds) that the earlier Calace examples (fratelli) are perhaps less desireable (since less refined both conceptually and physically) that the later instruments.

Anyone with real knowledge is encouraged to adjust my preconceptions.

[Alex Timmerman]

Well Bob, I recon the early (Nic & Raf) Calaces as the best - soundwise speaking - in their sort and within their models of course.

And that counts also for the (Pasq. Gen. & Gaet) Vinaccias, The Maldura, De Santis and early Luigi Embergher mandolins. So instruments that are not yet build with the heavy inner construction we see in the later instruments.

Most of these mandolins have because of their light construction, a very ´vibrant´ sound. A nice clear and loud sound also, I would say.

Anyway, I am with you for that it will probably go for a fraction for what it is really worth.


Best,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Anyway, I am with you for that it will probably go for a fraction for what it is really worth.
A fraction? I still think it will be at least €2500 or so. Those later Calaces on the Cafe all sold for about $3500 each. Why would this be different? Besides there are still a handful of manic bidders for these in Europe and Asia.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

We´ll see what it´ll make. In the meantime let´s see what we think about this Calace... (http://cgi.ebay.at/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=21591&item=6538105959&rd=1)

[onthefiddle]

I think ... ouch!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Also, note that the soundboard is obscured in shadow. How much more work is waiting there?

It is starting exceptionally cheaply for a Calace though! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Jon

[Alex Timmerman]

Jip, what we need here is a good photo of the complete front of the mandolin.