Bowlbacks of Note

[Jim Garber]

Embergher alert!
Creeping up to to £361 at the moment and rising with 4.5 days to go. My hunch is £1000 -1200.

I think our friend Carlo M (or perhaps Marco or both) is attempting a coup. Note from the seller:

This item will sell to the highest bidder. there will be no withdrawal from the auction under any circumstance.
There have been so many offers etc to end early but my reservation to withdraw no longer applies as I feel it would not be in the best spirit of an auction.
Be assured that it will go to the highest bidder.
Best of luck to all those who bid to the end!!!!!!!

Jim

[Eugene]

I wish more eBayers maintained such policy.

[Jim Garber]

I would think that it is in the seller's interest to do so. The longer the auction the higher the price, esp if there are a few crazy bidders. On the other hand, ready cash is a real lure.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

I agree. Then again, "the best spirit of an auction" is one of the better euphemisms for self-interest. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mandocaster]

Did anyone we know score the Ceccherini?

[trebleclef528]

WILLI HUMS MANDOLIN
I hope it was one of the "Cafe" that got this one - I had'nt noticed the discussion about it. I bid and got pipped at the post. Hums was reckoned to be the best German builder of his time, even better than Herwiga.(by the way I wil be listing a Herwiga shortly - just thought I'd throw that in)) I had a Hums which I sold on to one of our orchestra members and the sound is simply outstanding. Eugene was spot on with suspecting it being a "knock off" of a Calace.

I hope it is one of the "cafe" that has it and that it sounds as good as the one in our orchestra.
Best wishes to you all
Ian

[mandocaster]

I am the post pipper, I am afraid.

Even though the mandolin looked like a high quality piece, I was worried that it was an unknown maker and of suspect value. It is great to hear the maker isn't unknown at all!
(except to me)

[trebleclef528]

Hi mandocaster
No need to apologise for an excellent peice of bidding. It will be interesting to ear how the Hums sounds. Apart from the one in my orchestra this one was the only one I've seen so I reckon they are becoming scarce.

I see that "Stringwalker" from Germany had bid on it - he knows a quality mandolin when he sees one so thats a positive sign.
Well I'm off in two hours accross the border to England (Brighton) for the Annual BMG Rally.
Happy Plucking!
Ian

[Jim Garber]

mandocaster:
Hard to tell... did you get this one or not?

Jim

[mandocaster]

I got it, although the seller informs me that the shipping ($47) will take 4 weeks. hmph

[guitharsis]

Congrats mandocaster. Nice mandolin! Looks like you picked a good one.

Shipping on my Stridente was a little more costly, about $70, but was a lot faster. Only a week.

[Martin Jonas]

Did anyone we know score the Ceccherini?
I'm a bit confused right now. I dropped out at £403, a second bidder went up to £490, but the winning bid appears to have been from someone who goes around wrecking auctions, and who has now been thrown off Ebay. I assume that means that the second bidder, "Gibby59", gets the Ceccherini offered at one bid level above my bid, i.e. at £405. Whether he still wants it is anybody's guess. I guess that I may get it offered if he doesn't, but I'm now sending an e-mail to the seller to find out what the situation is.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Martin:
Good luck on this one. I don't know what the official eBay rules are in this case. It looks like Gibby was prepared to pay 480 for it tho.

Why this loser (Ianj8) gets off on this I don't know. Very strange. I did have some jerk do a buy it now on a guitar I was selling and he was a non-existent bidder who basically wasted my time.

On the other hand the Embergher is only at GBP 515.05 at the moment. Maybe save your pennies for that one.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Embergher alert!
Creeping up to to £361 at the moment and rising with 4.5 days to go. My hunch is £1000 -1200.
Hey, I am getting pretty good at this. Maybe I could make a living at it: guessing the results of bowlback auctions.

Final tally for the plain Embergher: £1,031.60

Jim

[Bob A]

How about making your guesses about 50% lower, so I will stop being outbid? (I'd pay a commission for that service!)

[Martin Jonas]

This is getting very intriguing, and I still don't know whether I'll get the Ceccherini after all. The winner of the Embergher is gibby59, who also outbid me on the Ceccherini (and who in turn was outbid by the prank bidder, Ianj8). I know from the seller of the Ceccherini that gibby59 was offered to buy it at his highest bid price, £480, and that he would offer it to me in turn if Gibby doesn't want it. So, the question for me is whether Gibby is on his way to a bowlback collection and takes both, or whether he decided to bid on the Embergher only once he was outbid on the Ceccherini.

As soon as someone doesn't play by the rules (Ianj8 in his case), the smooth operation of Ebay starts to crumble fairly quickly.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

After the Calace and Embergher auctions of the last two weeks, this one completes the set: Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3756463107&rd=1) sold by Ian (Trebleclef528).

A bit ornate for my taste, but by no means the worst offender in that category.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

This Vinaccia looks very similar to one sold on eBay by seller anniverdi (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3749836767) this past September.

I wonder if there is some question as to its authenticity as actually by Vinaccia. Aniverdi says "I cannot guarantee his autenthicity".

Jim

[Bob A]

I think anniverdi has yet another Vinaccia on ebay. Hard to believe two in the same week. (I disremember just who posted the second one; I'd seen Ian's).

[Jim Garber]

Here is the second Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3757703992&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) sold by Anniverdi.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Ian's went for £770, which for an authentic one is amazingly low, but still a good deal more than twice what Anniverdi got on his auction last month (456 Euro). I thought both Ian's and Anniverdi's descriptions implied some element of doubt on authenticity, so maybe that's what kept the big hitters away. I'm sure both sales are the same instrument -- they have the same chunky non-original bridge. The winner now is gibby59, who also got the Embergher and who bid the Ceccherini up to £480.

Martin

[Bob A]

Martin, any word on the final disposition of the Ceccherini? (BTW, the label in mine is in fact signed by Umberto C.)

I suppose those of us who still hope to score a cheap quality instrument should hope that gibby59, and coasttocoastbooks, have satiated their hunger for the nonce, especially since there seems to be a fair number of decent instruments appearing on the 'bay.

[Martin Jonas]

Bob --

Yes, in fact. #I was going to wait until I have it in my hand before mentioning it here, but I don't think it makes a difference. #As it happens, Gibby59 decided not to take it when it was offered to him at his highest bid. #The seller has offered it to me (at my highest bid) and I have accepted it. #I'll pick it up in person next Wednesday, when I have a business trip to London where the mandolin is.

After some consideration, I decided to honour my original bid amount, even though I was in fact the lowest of the three bidders and, after the other two dropped out, the only one remaining. #Although I might have got it cheaper if I had waited for the seller to re-list, I think it's still a good deal, and as I'll collect in person, I will be able to ensure that the condition matches the description and I'm not buying a dud.

I'm intrigued by this one, because it has a number of distinct differences to the one that was on sale two weeks earlier (and went for a bit less than I will end up paying). #The inlaid border goes around the entire soundhole, rather than just the upper half; the headstock shape has a Vinaccia-esque hole in it, rather than the plainer shield-like shape of the others I've seen (but doesn't have the inlay shown on the Sinier de Ridder site); the engraved tuner plates are a different shape (hard to say whether that's fancier or just different); and the label is signed. #All of this may be indicative of a higher range model, but it may just as well only mean a different vintage. #As Umberto didn't put either model numbers or years on the label, and as there don't seem to be any catalogues or reference books, it's hard to see how we'll ever know.

I'll post more once I have it in my hands.

Martin

[trebleclef528]

calace (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3757965990&rd=1)on German Ebay

[Martin Jonas]

Lovely bowl on the Calace, but the top looks like it has been pounded with a mallet. And what about the bridge position? Were Calace any good in the 60s? Those strings seem to be Thomastik-Infeld "Mittel" (black tops), which I would have thought is too thick a gauge for a Calace. That may explain top distortion and bridge position.

Martin

[Eugene]

...And that label. For being dated 1963, it looks like the label has endured 100 years of wear. I wonder if some water damage was involved. Of course, post-Raffaele mandolins don't hold such fascination as those built under his tenure. I haven't heard much good of Calace production in the '60s, but I personally have never handled a Calace made in the '60s.

[mandocaster]

Here is a pretty Martin (style 3?)

I don't remember my old Martin (long since sold) being signed, I don't know how common this was.

Martin bowlback (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3758293330&rd=1)

[Eugene]

I've never seen one signed. #Interesting. Of course, I haven't dug around under the soundboard of every Martin I've encountered with a mirror. #This is a style 2 and looks mighty tasty.

[Jim Garber]

I emailed the seller and asked for photos showing the string angle at the neck and it does look like a very playable one. $500-800 prob, my guess.

I also gave him the string caveat. he said that his luthier put the light gauge strings and I told him to be wary that many luthiers are not as informed as we bowlaholics.

Jim

[Eugene]

A couple years ago, this style 2 of mine, fully restored by Dan Larson, only claimed $500 on eBay. Disappointing (for me).

[trebleclef528]

Barbara (The wife) has a 1967 Calace - very good sound. We actually had two of these - identical and I think she sold one (or at least I did on her behalf) to one of the cafe members a year or so ago.

If I could learn how to attach a picture to this site then you would have a better idea of what I'm talking about.
The photo is in "my pictures" file on my computer...Any info on how I can share this lovely picture with you would be appreciated.
Regards,
Ian

[Nat]

Has anyone mentioned this Egildo (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3757960036&rd=1) yet? Would be nice to have some pictures of the back...

[etbarbaric]

Hi Ian,

To attach a file (such as a JPEG image) scroll down on the "Add Reply" screen, below where you are typing your message, and you will see something that says:

File Attachments

... and below that:

You may attach a file to this message.
Maximum file size (in bytes): 76800 ___ [Browse]

You can either enter a file name in the space, or select the "Browse" button to traverse your file system and select the desired file.

Good luck,

Eric

[RSW]

That Martin of Eugene's looks absolutely delicious. Why on earth would you ever sell such an instrument, especially with the full fingerboard (I assume that Dan L. did the adaption)? Somehow the Martin bowlback has escaped my orbit but it looks like a true player's instrument.

About the 1967 Calace's, they can also be very nice tonally though somewhat unfinished in their workmanship. I've seen and played a couple from this period and found them both to be exceedingly enjoyable to play.

[Jim Garber]

Has anyone mentioned this Egildo (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3757960036&rd=1) yet? Would be nice to have some pictures of the back...
This mandolin was on ebay some time ago and I think it didn't meet reserve.

Here is the back shot from the seller the first time. It looks like an Embergher from the front but is actually a flat back mandolin.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

I checked my Martin style 6 for a signature under the soundboard. I couldn;t see one with a mirror.

The only reason I can figure for Frank Martin to sign the top on a style 2 would be if he did the actual work or repairs on it. Unless he did sign all of them for some reason later on (1910).

Jim

[Eugene]

Has anyone mentioned this Egildo (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3757960036&rd=1) yet? Would be nice to have some pictures of the back...
What on odd listing. #It appears to start with a close up of the soundboard and move into progressively more eye-crossingly intense close ups without a shot of the whole instrument, front or back, anywhere. #Looking at the heal and reading the description, I'm assuming this must feature a flat back in spite of its Roman-style table. #It might be tempting if I could see more and the opening bid weren't so obscene.

[Jim Garber]

Here is the front of the Egildo.

[Eugene]

Ha, Jim has confirmed whilst I typed.

I sold the Martin to fund the purchase of more beautiful things, a ca. 1850 Staufer-style guitar by Hungary's Placht brothers in this specific case. #Martin's craftsmanship was as good as any on the North American continent, and I do sometimes regret parting with that style 2. #I got it with a badly fretted, borderline non-functional replacement fingerboard. #Dan crafted the fully fretted re-replacement, imitating the style of the original pearl position markers, and he did a fine job in that. #I love the tone of most Martins, but the tone of this one was a bit too stiff and stringent for my taste. Yes, I sometimes miss the style 2, but I console myself in owning a one-of-a-kind Martin with an ideal tone that serves as my favorite mandolin in all the world.

Another feature I really like of Martin mandolins as they moved into the early 20th c. was that they shifted the soundhole just a little southward to accommodate fingerboards with a full 20 frets. #Many American mandolins featured 20-fret extensions, but with only 17 or 18 full frets. #This hole repositioning and the resultant wider span of wood above the soundhole just looks somehow more robust. #Trivial, I know, but I like'em.

Of course, if you're really interested in bringing a Martin into your stable, Richard, there is another style 2 currently for sale that is linked above.

[Bob A]

Less than 16 hrs to go on a clean-looking Fratelli Vinaccia (1887) offerred by anniverdi. Currently at 310 British pounds, reserve not met.

Will no one be bringing this home?

[Jim Garber]

Less than 16 hrs to go on a clean-looking Fratelli Vinaccia...
Don't you worry, Bob. It won't stay there at that low price. What do you say, £700-800?

Jim

[Bob A]

It'd probably be a steal at 700, but I've given up guessing ebay prices. You da man for that.

[Martin Jonas]

It went up to £1120 (over $2000), but as it turns out anniverdi had put an even higher reserve on it, so no deal. I really don't like reserve price auctions and I don't see the point. If he isn't going to sell for less than (say) £1500, then why not put that as the starting bid and we all know where we are. He has to pay the Ebay fees based on his reserve anyway, so he doesn't even save money.

I'm also a bit surprised, because although this one seems in fine condition, it's still a very basic Vinaccia. If we compare it to the Embergher student model last week, that one sold for just over £1000. I would have thought the two were fairly equivalent in reputation, desirability and condition. The Ebay bidders seem to agree, but anniverdi was looking for more.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Hmmmm.... I have failed and grossly underestimated. Oh well. Since it was pretty plain I assumed that it would go for less -- certainly less than the Embergher.

We are all learning about this market piece by piece. Has anyone dealt directly with seller anniverdi BTW?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

I have, Jim. Seems like a nice guy, based in Italy (Rome, I think) but fluent in English, prompt and helpful in his responses.

I once corresponded with him regarding a (fairly) modern bowlback, with 33 maple staves, simple ornamentation, functionally perfect... you know, MY kind of mandolin. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

It went for some $300; I missed out, as I was flat out of cash, or in rehearsal/performance during the final minutes of the bidding, or both. Yup: $300. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif Then again, that was then.

Besides, "I have too many mandolins already", said the fox.

[Bob A]

Well, now, I'm gratified that the Vinaccia is valued big time by the seller, if only for the satisfaction of having a similar example.

Now there's a 1920 Calace on the bay, two years older than mine, and with a cooler soundhole decoration. Opening at $2K, four+ days to go, and no bidders. Jim, step up to the plate and take a swing. Remember that batting .500 will get you into the Hall of Fame.

[Jim Garber]

I meant to track this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3757780575&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT) by Luiggi Uriani.

Anyone know any nackground on this maker. It looks lovely.

Jim

[Bob A]

Never heard of him, but man, thats a tasty looking instrument. Apparently the bidders and seller agree - it's near 800 euros already, and hasn't met the reserve.

[Jim Garber]

Bob: That one is over for now. I have a feeling that there is some backroom haggling or else we will see it again.

Jim

[Eugene]

I love the wacky fluting and alternating rib materials. I also like the simple decor and maple headstock veneer. Tasty indeed. The tuners look enough out of place in context, that I'd want to scrutinize them to determine originality. Too bad the seller pulled this.

[Jim Garber]

Too bad the seller pulled this.
I don't think that the seller pulled it. It just went thru the std auction length.

Jim

[Eugene]

Ah, you're right. Maybe it will relist.

[Martin Jonas]

After agreeing a deal at £400 with the seller of the Ceccherini (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3754368525), I detoured on a business trip to London today to pick it up in person at his house. So, now I am the proud owner of two Ceccherinis. Much cheaper habit than collecting Emberghers...

It was quite an interesting visit, anyway: the seller is a dealer in antique instruments, specialising mostly in violins, with sidelines in flutes and the occasional mandolin. I think Ebay is rather new for him (according to his feedback, this was his first auction as a seller) -- he gets his stock from "proper" antiques auctions, which was also the source of the Ceccherini. I had a quick look at the other four mandolins he had there as well: one Calace, one Cristofaro, one de Meglio and an unlabelled de Meglioesque one. He's considering putting them all on Ebay, so you may see them earlier rather than later anyway.

The Calace is dated 1914, and is a plain entry-level, oval hole, no decorations on the pick guard, but a lovely maple bowl. It looks a bit sorry, but may well be restorable without too much trouble. There's no bridge, the nut has come off (but is still there, loose in the bowl), and there is a stable-looking (possibly fixed) top crack. The main structural problem is a peculiar back bow of the neck.

The Cristofaro has a very Calace-esque design on the front (D-shaped sound hole, rosewood arm rest), but is a flatback. Pretty good condition. The de Meglio is a fine 1A (1904, 20 frets, ebony fretboard), but with a non-original, though ok-ish, bridge and the unlabelled one is either a heavily and badly restored de Meglio or an unlabelled apprentice model: too many incongruities to count.

I guess if you're interested in any of these, drop him a line and see if you can pre-empt the Ebay listing.

The main bit of interest is the Ceccherini, of course. It's pretty startling: it feels like it has dropped out a timewarp. There are some usage marks, and quite a bit of smudging on the top (visible in the Ebay photos), but it looks startlingly new and unused: on looking at it, one might think it was sold at the Voigt shop maybe five to ten years ago and got some gentle playing in the meantime. It doesn't look restored, just never used to any great extent.

The strings are ancient of course, so tone assessment must wait. A bit of plucking on the old string sounds rather pleasant, though. I still have a spare set of Lenzners, so I'll put them on on the weekend. Neck is perfectly straight, no top warping, no sinkage, no indication of any structural issues. The action is a tiny bit higher than I have set the other one, but nothing dramatic.

Other than the double top (which the new one has and my old one doesn't), the design and decoration are fairly similar. It's more intricate on the new one, but I think I marginally prefer the inlay designs on the other one. However, despite the similarities, the visual impact is quite different for the two Ceccherinis: my old one is a characterful antique, with a bit of warping and a bit of wear, but aged visibly and gracefully, looking the part of a treasured 100-year old instrument. The new one is just that: new, and startingly so. I suspect it may have been played so little that it may need quite a bit of breaking in to develop its tone. But I'm very much looking forward to doing the side-by-side comparison of the tone of the double-top design compared to the single-top design. I wouldn't think there are too many people with both, so I'll be well-place for that comparison. I wonder whether its tone will be as dark like my old one: this is a very mellow instrument, miles away from the bright tone associated with Neapolitan bowls.

I'll have to think about that smudge on the top: it looks like dirt build-up from a player's hands and looks cleanable. However, I'm no sure what to use without damaging the ultra-thin finish of the soundboard. A slightly damp cloth (maybe with a bit of soap in the water)? A furniture polishing tissue? Something alcohol based? Does anybody have any experience in that direction?

More later.

Martin

[mandocaster]

Personally, I would avoid letting any alcohol touch the instrument. Too risky. It will quickly dissolve a french polish, for instance. A damp cloth would be the first thing to try.

[Bob A]

I've had success using naphtha (lighter fluid) to remove gummy deposits from mandolins. I'd be exceedingly cautious about it, though. It had no effect on the finish of my Lyon & Healy, but the exceedingly thin and unknown finish of these Italians is terra incognita to me.

My Ceccherini, double-topped, is far from a dark sounding instrument. I eagerly await your findings when once you've brought the new one into regular play.

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks, Bob and mandocaster. I'll see where I get with a slightly damp cloth and may well leave it at that. Interesting what you say about the tone of your Ceccherini. I love the tone of my single-top one precisely because it's so dark, but having a brighter tone from the double top should make a good complement. Some of the tone colour may come from the Consort strings, with their mellower flatwound A, but the darkness is clearly audible from the other strings as well. Maybe a different tonal colour is deliberate, for orchestral use vs. soloist use.

One thing I've noticed is that the wording on the label is a bit different: the new one says Fabbrica di Mandolini e Mandole, whereas the other one says Chitarre. I've never seen either a guitar or a mandola from him, but presumably the different wording reflects a different year of manufacture.

Martin

[guitharsis]

Congrats, Martin!

Hope this one meets or even exceeds your expectations for sound. #It will be interesting to compare it to your fist one. #

Doreen

[Martin Jonas]

Cleaning with a slightly damp cloth did the trick to remove the smudge and it looks much nicer now. There's a certain amount of general blotchiness in the wood, but I think that's just normal ageing, not actual deposits that can be cleaned off. I do wonder whether these blond spruce tops used by de Meglio and Ceccherini have any finish at all on them, or whether this is just unsealed wood.

Martin

[Bob A]

Two Calaces on ebay - one goes in 5+ hrs, opening bid at 2k, no takers; the other from Uruguay. Uruguay also has a Vinaccia. (The Uruguay connection is the same fellow who had a double-labelled instrument a while ago. Seems like he's paying closer attention now. Neither of these two have the presumed makers label visible, so attribution is perhaps questionable. But they look pretty good.)

[Jim Garber]

Two guys are battling it out for this nice 1900 Martin Style 4 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3760595901) sold by Lowell Levinger.

It is just starting... I wonder how high they will go... $1200? More?

I am convinced that on ebay, if you do quality photogrphy, you up your price as as seller.

Jim

[Eugene]

Wow, the quality of the photos is remarkable and, through the images, it appears as thought the condition of the instrument is as well. I love that old-school, Vinaccia-esque bridge that Martin would abandon shortly after this one was made.

[Bob A]

The possible Calace and the perhaps Vinaccia from Uruguay are sitting bidlessly; There's an Albertini trainwreck Lombard instrument there too. If I thought I could get it repaired for $500 in less than a year, I'd give it serious thought. Meanwhile perhaps the optimists among us would care to bid?

The Martin is a lovely thing. Jim's dead on about photo quality - my keyboard is crusty with saliva from the best of these things.

Actually there seems to be a whole bunch of interesting bowlbacks available this week, including one with a very interesting back; looks like the ribs continue unobstructed right up the back of the neck. I can't recall the maker, some one I've never heard of, but the instrument is visually fascinating. I'll come back with the maker later.

(Listed as by "Di Leo Camillo" - nice naked lady on the pickguard too. Looks like it'd need repair, but do check out the back).

[etbarbaric]

Yikes... the Camillo is a bit much for me... Not that I have anything against naked ladies on pickguards... its just that this one seems to have a goat-tee...

The back treatment is indeed interesting.

Eric

[Jim Garber]

Bob:
We have got to get you up to speed on posting links! Copy the link from your browser window. When you reply to the thread hit the "http://" button. Paste the link into the first window. Then put whatever verbiage you want link to read (the word that will be underscored, like Calace.

In any case: here is the Camillo (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3759377878) -- that one is a bit too roccoco for me but I agree: the ribs flowing into the striated neck is a feat of luthier art in itself.

there is actually something strange going on with this one's bidding tho: there are 42 small increment bids mostly by bidders with very low feedback. Makes me a little suspicious that there are some shenanigans going on.

The uruguay "Vinaccia" is here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3759708219) and the same seller's "Calace" is here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3759715066). I have a feeling the location of these plus the questionable provenance may be holding some folks back. Also that Calace loks like it had been pretty much butchered and would have to be re-restored.

I can't seem to find that "Albertini trainwreck" you mention. Give me a clue -- or is the auction over?

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I've been sort of toying with the idea to bid on this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3758650681&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT) wreck of an 1895 Angara & d'Isanto, just as a woodworking exercise, not in an expectation of getting it back to fully-restored condition. However, it has now risen above the range for a woodworking exercise kit. Maybe someone else fancies trying his hand at a bit of dowelling and bracing. It's a sorry sight, but a nice maple bowl. Of course, there may be all sort of other collatoral damage along with the decapitation.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I thought that that Angara & Disanto was interesting also primarily due to the maple bowl.

Confusing to me was the structure of the neck joint as shown in the photo.

http://i12.ebayimg.com/02/i/02/bc/29/ae_12_s.JPG

Is that neck made of a core of lighter wood surrounded by a veneer of darker (mahogany). Looks odd to me.

Jim

[Eugene]

Yup, just a veneer over light wood. That was the modus operandi of most luthiers way back in the era when luthiers were building their namesake (i.e., lutes).

[Jim Garber]

It seems like that technique was more work than necessary. You still have to carve the neck, right? Why not just do it once out of the mahogany?

Jim

[etbarbaric]

Hi Jim,

Veneer is not always merely decorative. Though less common on small instruments like the mandolin, the technique of veneering a light wood with a thin layer of hardwood serves a practical purpose in larger lutes and archlutes. This technique is basically monocoque construction and results in a *very* strong and light structure.

Best,

Eric

[vkioulaphides]

Bouzouki-builders, who use this technique extensively, claim that, by "counterbalancing" the grain of the various woods, they prevent warping.

Taking this to an extreme, perhaps, they often embed a rod of hardwood as the "core" or "spine" of the (white wood) neck, AND veneer it externally with some (same or other kind of) hardwood.

I don't know how relevant that would be in the case of mandolins; they are, after all, short-necked lutoids.

[Bob A]

Jim, I'd love to copy the link etc., but sadly am clueless. Do I have to do this manually, copying a string of gibberish onto paper and then reproducing same, or is there a series of "buttons" to push? Understand I really dislike the tons of minutiae these machines thrive on.

Anyway, the Albertini auction is over. No bidders at $499 and change. (Hint: it is ebay number 3759212938).

[etbarbaric]

Hi Bob,

When Jim says copy and paste, he means using the computer to do this. In your browser window, you will see the address (URL) of the Web page that you want to point to (http://www....).

- Select the entire address. This can usually be done by double-clicking in the address window... or alternately clicking, holding down, and dragging the mouse.

- Once the entire address is selected (highlighted) go to the edit menu of your browser and select "copy". This action copies the selected text to a little storage area on your computer called the clipboard.

- Then, following Jim's directions, go to the window where you are posting your reply to the message on the message board, press the "http://" button, double-click the "http://" text that comes up in the little window (you are selecting this text for replacement).

- Now go to the edit menu and select "paste". This will paste the URL that you had copied above into the little window.

- Click the OK button and you will get another window that will prompt you for some more text. This lets you enter a name for the link in your reply message.

I hope this helps,

Eric.

[Jim Garber]

That Albertini didn't look that bad. I will get my Casini back in a few weeks and it only took a few months. I will let you know about the quality of the work and whether I would recommend this guy.

Albertini "train wreck" (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3759212938)

Jim

[Bob A]

Italian 4-string mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3759999616&rd=1)
This is a test. In a real emergency, you'd better grab the instrument at hand.

[Bob A]

I'll be d*mned - it worked! Thanks, guys, you'll be seeing far too much, far too soon.

[Jim Garber]

Hey, Bob...

I knew you could do it! Just for that you should celebrate and buy a Calace or two. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Eugene]

D*mn! I want that Brescian mandolin, but am debating myself on it and will likely be out of town (possibly on the water) when the bidding ends. Still debating. So I don't conflict with my cyber-friends, any other pursuers out there?

[Bob A]

By Brescian do you mean the 4stringer I posted? If so, I'm not going there.

[Eugene]

Yup.

[Martin Jonas]

I've been sort of toying with the idea to bid on this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=3758650681&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT) wreck of an 1895 Angara & d'Isanto, just as a woodworking exercise, not in an expectation of getting it back to fully-restored condition.
That wreck went for £67! A very brave buyer, I would say. These instruments are nice, but examples in pretty good condition have gone for around £200 to £300 recently (and for much less a bit further ago), so I really can't imagine that this was a good buy.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

[QUOTE]"I want that Brescian mandolin"!

Ah, so THAT's what it is! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif No competition coming from here, my friend. I may be ignorant, but I'm stingy, too. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

How about an iconoclastic solution to your problem, Eugene? Could you, theoretically, appoint a trusted person as your "proxy" (available around the final minutes of the bidding), inform him/her of your absolute maximum bid (obviously, confidentially to the "outer" world), and have him/her chase the instrument of your dreams on your behalf?

This would naturally require great and mutual confidence, and probably violates a thousand-or-so eBay regulations to boot. Not much land was conquered cross-in-hand, though...

As for the Angara... ugh! I'm down and out, when it comes to such projects.

[Jim Garber]

This would naturally require great and mutual confidence, and probably violates a thousand-or-so eBay regulations to boot. Not much land was conquered cross-in-hand, though...
I would gladly offer to do it but I will be busy in Carlo's master class on Friday.

I can't imagine that it would violate any eBay rules. I have been to many auctions where a bidder buys a lot for someone else.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, precisely! Live auctions are routinely run by such proxies; big-wigs rarely want to waste their afternoon at Christie's, just to bid on some old Van Gogh for a measly 2-3 million dollars. So they have someone else waste his/her breath on their behalf.

I just thought, however, that on eBay (with its self-monitoring system of positive/negative feedback) such delegation would go against the grain of the institution. But if not, so much the better!

I do second Jim's offer AND excuse, Eugene; same time, same place, same Aonzoland.

[etbarbaric]

Hi Victor,

Such an arrangement has already been worked out.

Eric

[mandocaster]

For the last purchase I made on ebay I used a service called bidnapper. It waited until 2 seconds before the close of bidding to bid. It worked. I know it doesn't seem quite cricket, but it really isn't any different than attempting to do the same thing yourself.

Bidnapper (http://www.bidnapper.com)

[Jim Garber]

There are lots of those sniping softwares around. I have never used one tho I thought of it. I have a friend who set up his own to get in under the 5 second mark. Phew!

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Oooooh, I can see some raised eyebrows at the SEC... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Of course, as with all system-beating plans, they are soon done one up, with Bidnapper.2 (or perhaps a competitor) offering last 1 second transactions, then fractions thereof, etc.

Then Dutch auctions (as in Google), then OBO's, what then? I can see Mandolin Futures, (not to mention options thereon) proudly displayed at the CBOE... ah, the market is such fun!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jim Garber]

I can see Mandolin Futures, (not to mention options thereon) proudly displayed at the CBOE... ah, the market is such fun!
Ah, let's see... if I can predict the selling prices of various mandolins... finally, a way to use my talent?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Sure, Jim: from analysis —both fundamental ("Is this instrument worth the ask price?", i.e. discount-modeling) AND technical ("For how much were the latest, similar instruments sold?", i.e. trend-studies)— all the way to arbitrage ("Now, wait a minute! You call THAT a Vinaccia?!?")

The stage is set for you, O Mando-Pricing Guru!

[bratsche]

There are lots of those sniping softwares around. I have never used one tho I thought of it. I have a friend who set up his own to get in under the 5 second mark. Phew!

Only wussies need software. Just get an accurate clock, synchronize it with ebay's, and develop a quick trigger finger. I've clocked many a 2- or 1- second snipe in my day...

bratsche http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Martin Jonas]

If you bid your actual maximum bid, then you will only be outbid if someone else is willing to pay more than you are willing. If so, they rightfully win the auction, and good luck to them. As long as everybody is bidding their actual maximums, it doesn't matter when the bids go in. The only point of sniping software is that it can enable you to catch out other bidders who did not go in with their actual maximum bid. Those bidders may consider raising their bid if they know that you are willing to pay more than them and by using sniping software, you're not giving them the time to think and to get caught in auction fever. Similarly, if you want to be there right at the death to make sure that nobody is outbidding you, clearly you did not bid your actual maximum amount. If your first bid is also your maximum bid, you can happily go out of town and check the outcome when you come back. Why be upset if you're outbid? Somebody else was willing to pay more than you were, or else you would have bid more to start with.

Martin

[etbarbaric]

Thank you Martin. Well put.

[bratsche]

My snipe bid is my first, and only, bid. Why tip off "the competition" that I'm even interested beforehand?

bratsche http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Jim Garber]

The psychology if auctions is pitting one's competitive nature against another. That is why, contrary to our own interests, we bid way too high. I have seen folks bid over the retail value of items just so the other guy would not get to them.

My own neurosis is that someone will outbid me by a very small increment, which drives me crazy... "If only I bid another $1 higher..."

Anyway, it is an effective way to sell things esp if you have more than one bidder and occasionally even works on the side of the buyer.

My observation is that an auction is merely a contest to see who is more insane about an item. The winners ends up paying more and therefore proving their insanity.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

My snipe bid is my first, and only, bid. Why tip off "the competition" that I'm even interested beforehand?
Oh, absolutely -- if you're around, you might just as well put your one and only bid in just before it ends. I do that as well. What I was saying is that as long as your bid is your maximum, the only disadvantage of bidding earlier (if you're going to be out of town, like Eugene) is that other know you're interested. As I said, if that means they bid more than you, good luck to them.

I usally bid only once. Well, except for that Ceccherini where I ended up raising my bid against my firm resolution. But it was just so purty...

Martin

[Eugene]

Well, I'm back, and will bid...but not too much. If you really want it, feel no shame in my toppling.

[Eugene]

My snipe bid is my first, and only, bid. Why tip off "the competition" that I'm even interested beforehand?

bratsche #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Well, I really don't need it. Naive as it sounds, anybody posting here (and probably reading here) is likely a friend for whom I would rather step aside than obstruct their pursuit of this thing. I also think that, at least amongst readers here, my "tipping off" is more likely to steer them clear. Frankly, when such things arise, my communication regarding them is usually via private e-mail...but Bob publicly spilled the beans here! Would you like this thing, Susan?

[Bob A]

Sorry.

[Eugene]

Please. No need, of course.

[Jim Garber]

I wouldn't fear anyone here. We are all pluggin for you. Keep it in the family, i say.

On the other hand, there are those lurkers out there who we don't know...

it's a jungle out there in Bowlbackland.. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[bratsche]

No, gracias, Eugene! At such time if/when I decide to become one of the Sistern of the Bowl, it will have to be an 8 stringer.

I wasn't speaking of the people on this board/thread as "the competition", so much as those unknown eBay bidders! Most bowlbacks that attract my attention unfortunately get too high by the end for me to seriously consider, anyway, especially not knowing what they'll sound like...

bratsche

[Martin Jonas]

Eugene --

I think what bratsche, Jim and I were having was an entirely theoretical discussion on bidding strategy on Ebay -- as far as I can see none of the other posters here has expressed any plans to bid for the Brescian, fascinating though it looks. Go for it, and we'll all be rooting for you!

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

De Meglio (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3760143650&rd=1)

Looks authentic but needs work. If it stays low...

[vkioulaphides]

Another de Meglio (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3760063081&rd=1)

Looks impeccable, but costs more (plus it is located in the UK)...

[vkioulaphides]

Third one! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3760359409&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

[vkioulaphides]

All of the above by way of atonement for sins of digression, past, present, and future. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Somebody, ANYbody, write me up an absolution!

[Eugene]

It's not much, but "You are absolved, brother Victor." I would love to pursue any one of these de Meglios, but such activity would wreck my marriage because I just scored that ratty mandolino Bresciano by Bavassano from Napoli (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3759999616&rd=1).

[vkioulaphides]

Thanks, Eugene; I'm sure that an absolution from you counts!

And, hey, congratulations! Not ratty at all, I dare say. And even if so (I'm not qualified to judge), your catcher's talent has extended into rodentia!

Enjoy!

[Jim Garber]

Hi Eugene:
Why "ratty"? I thought it looked pretty good.

Congratulations!

Jim

[bratsche]

I thought it was supposed to be whormy, not ratty (or is it just whormholey?) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Congrats, Euge-o-rama!

And that head is by far the most violin-like I've ever seen on a mando. What kind of strings can you use with such pegs?

bratsche

[Jim Garber]

Could this ebay sale (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3761163203) be a result of the Sotheby's bonanza? Is this really an Embergher?

It is also strange that the seller is a member in Italy but the item is supposedly in he US?

Jim

[Onesound]

Forgive my ignorance, but the body on that "Embergher" appears to be asymetrical. Can't say I've ever noticed that before on another instrument. Am I imagining things?
-Brian

[trebleclef528]

I've had a close look at this and I really have my doubts about it being an Embergher. I thought at first it might be one of the "student" mandolins, but then it does not appear to look anything like the ones on "Alex's Embergher site".
Iv'e ask the seller for more pics..and will let you know the outcome.
Regards,
ian

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

Nothing to do with a Roman Mandolin and certainly nothing with the instruments build by Luigi Embergher and his direct successors.


Best,

Alex.

[Martin Jonas]

And it's the "sehr Weinlesemandoline" translation into German again. Ian and Barbara will no doubt appreciate that line.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

Third one! (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3760359409&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)
This is one somewhat later than most (1906), and looks a bit different in decoration from most. It seems in decent enough condition, although one can't necessarily tell from the photos, but £250 is way more than de Meglios have achieved recently (unsurprisingly, there's no bid yet). The one that Ian sold (the "second" one listed by Victor) seemed to me to be more confidence-inspiring and even that one only went for £185.

The one in Texas ("First" one by Victor) doesn't look that bad on the photos, but the overall description would lead me to suspect that it could be a money sink. I have no idea where the seller gets the impression that a restored de Meglio would be worth "thousands".

Amazing how many de Meglios there are out there!

Martin

[Alex Timmerman]

Congrats Eugene, with your Ratty Brescian Bavassano!

It is an interesting instrument. And I am glad it found a home where it will be appreciated.


Greetings,

Alex.

PS. The Albertini Lombardian ´trainwreck´ I bought for one of my students. And I agree with Jim here: It didn´t look that bad at all!
I´ll keep you up-dated when it arrives.

[Eugene]

Thanks for the words, all. I will post report when the instrument is in hand. There is a rather substantial but allegedly repaired crack in the soundboard; it looks a little worse in detail photos than in the photos on the auction page. I suspect the neck with scrolled pegbox might actually be mass-produced stock originally intended for student-grade violin production, Susan: just a guess. The Brescian-type mandolin was built for gut and wound, classical guitar-like strings. I like the look of this piece's maple bowl and clasp. I'm looking forward to seeing it in person.

[raffaele]

Hey all...Raffaele Calace on ebay (aus) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Jim Garber]

raffaele:
I assume this Calace (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3761871056) is yours?

Jim

[Eugene]

Hey all...Raffaele Calace on ebay (aus)
Absolutely delicious!

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

This one has been on e-Bay before and was also discussed on this topic before.

Nice! except for the sleeve-gard which is clearly a later addition.


Alex

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello!

A compatriot of mine is trying to sell an unknown mandolin in a relativ good condition without any success. Look here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3759975663&rd=1).
Good luck!

[raffaele]

Yeah...decided it should go to a worthy home...but Alex...I havn't had it on ebay before....I've just decided to part with it....I can only look at "Raf", not play...so I thought he'd appreciate a better home...

[Jim Garber]

A compatriot of mine is trying to sell an unknown mandolin in a relativ good condition without any success. Look here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3759975663&rd=1).
Looks to me like a Puglisi. Two things are prob holding back bidders: 1) BION the yellowishness of the photos and 2) the fact that it is in bulgaria and that payment is more difficult.

BTW it looks very much like the work of the Puglisi shop (or a copy thereof), don't you think, Plami? Have you seen and played this instrument?

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello Jim,

You are right about the two things. I haven`t noticed the payment details. It might be Puglisi, but I`m not quite sure. I`m inclined to think, that it`s rather a copy. No, I haven`t seen nor played this particular instrument. But I may try to contact him for details. I don`t know where exactly in Bulgaria the seller is located. If he is settled in Sofia I may ask him for a closer view at the instrument.

Good luck!

[mandolinoman]

Hi, Plamen

It seems like that all the Puglisi mandolins that were built years ago had only butterfly designs on the mandolins. #Maybe there were other designs, besides the butterfly design.

All my best friendly regards,

George

[Jim Garber]

George:
I am not sure if you think it is a Puglisi or that it is not -- it is a little unlcear to me what you are saying.

I have seen photos of a mandolin with almost this eaxact decoration that was labelled Puglisi. The double butterfly pickguard seems pretty common, tho i have seen other Puglisis with different butterflies and with different ornamentation altogether.

Jim

[Bob A]

Regarding the Australian Calace, it seems to me the bridge is identical to the (Australian) Calace I bought several months ago. I had been (very mildly) concerned that it was not original to the instrument, but either it is factory original, or the same (Australian) luthier made a replacement.

Given the price, I should have waited.

Does anyone know the function of the two holes in the soundboard?

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello George and Jim,

Yes, the butterfly in any appearance is very typical for the Puglisi mandolins, but that doesn`t mean it`s necesserily a Puglisi mandolin, because the butterfly decoration could be seen on many other types of mandolins. Besides there are a lot of plain Puglisi mandolins or decorated with flowers, birds, etc. I`ll let you know if I succeed in making a contact with the seller of this particular one. Still don`t believe it`s a Puglisi, although very similar.

Good luck!

[sailaway]

so there is now another Australian Calace listed on eBay -- is this similar to bob A's Calace? (with sleeve- guard...) Does anyone know anything about this Calace ? (Since I am missing CMSA in phila. due to the abomination of work , I might as well spend money on a new mandolin!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[Jim Garber]

This one seems to have the same characteristics including pickguard (dual butterflies), headstock shape, outer body binding and rosette inlays as the one below that was sold on ebay Germany in May of this year. That one was labelled a Puglisi, I believe.

Jim

[mandocaster]

Well, I got the Willy Hums mandolin delivered today. #All in all in good shape, although the tuners are pretty worn.

Hard to say how it sounds with 30 year old East German strings on it. #The action is a tiny bit high, but usable.

One unexpected surprise was a stencil on the case of the original owner. #

It reads -
Volkskunstensemble "Fritz Heckert" #Karl Marx Stadt DDR

45 singers, 15 musicians, solo recitation. Probably not the hippest band in the DDR.

An internet search yielded a little info. #In 2003 the band had an anniversary concert. #My German is pretty rusty, though.
Fritz Heckert Concert (http://home.arcor.de/fhe.chemnitz/presse.htm)

[raffaele]

I just wanted to say...to anyone who may be interested in finding out anything about my Calace thats currently on ebay....I'm no expert on Mandolins....but if you can point me in the right direction....I'm more than happy to answer any questions that you may have about it...if I possibly can.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello Jim,

The one, that you posted is a Puglisi, no doubt! The one, that we discussed is really very similar, even the same. Most probably it`s a Puglisi too.

Good luck!

Here is another plain Puglisi on ebay.de I think the price is too high for this one. And most probably will meet the same fortune as the previous one. Puglisi Mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3760917680&rd=1)

[Martin Jonas]

This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3762630420&rd=1) one is allegedly labelled "Fratelli Vinaccia", but looks incongruous to me. #Anybody else? #

This Ferrari (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3761220962&rd=1) is interesting in view of the discussion of Alban Voigt we had a few months ago: This one has the Voigt address on the label, the same as the Ceccherinis. #In fact, I've only just seen one of these Ferraris earlier this week at Hobgoblin's London shop. #Didn't appeal to me and was overpriced, but maybe somebody has experience with these?

As we were talking in the other thread about Embergher clones, here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3763450570&rd=1)'s a no-name one that looks pretty similar to my mother's Miroglio, but with the Embergher-style scroll scratchplate (although it looks rather crudely copied on this one, and probably painted on rather than inlaid).

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Martin:
I clicked on the Vinaccia one but all that came up is a de Meglio being sold by Ian.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Oops, wrong link, sorry. The right link is here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3762649321&rd=1).

Martin

[Eugene]

That mass-produced Sicilian/German celluloid butterfly, the rosewood fingerboard...nothing looks like it conceivably coulb be Vinaccia here...except maybe the bridge. My money is on the label either being a forgery or having been pirated from a wrecked Fratelli Vinaccia.

[Jim Garber]

That Embergher close looks like a cartoon of an Embergher pickguard. Strange.

One question I have... those tortoise armguards that these mandolins have (like the one in the Ferrari mandolin) are they actual tortoise-shell?

Jim

[bratsche]

Anybody know anything about this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3762894798&rd=1)? It's nice-looking...

bratsche

[Martin Jonas]

I have no knowledge of it, other than that it looks in good condition and its decorations and scratchplate are typical American. For what it's worth, the level of decoration and the number of ribs suggests it wasn't an entry-level model. The label reads "Thiebes-Stierlin Warranted / Smith Academy, St Louis". A quick web search shows that Thiebes-Stierlin were a St.Louis-based company and the web site of the Missouri Department of Natural Resources says:


The six-story Thiebes-Stierlin Music Company Building was constructed in 1904 as the third and final retail home of a prominent music firm in St. Louis. Located on the city's old "Music Row" on Olive Street, the firm not only sold sheet music and instruments but also manufactured pianos, mandolins, guitars and strings. Today Thiebes-Stierlin also is remembered for carrying sheet music specifically directed to African-American musicians.

If that's true, they were an actual manufacturer, not just a distributor. That doesn't explain why the name "Smith Academy" is also on the label. That's a St. Louis boys' school (T.S. Eliot went there). Some endorsement deal, perhaps, or maybe it's not actually a manufacturer's label but an inventory label and Thiebes-Stierlin built this mandolin for the school orchestra.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

This Ferrari (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3761220962&rd=1) is interesting in view of the discussion of Alban Voigt we had a few months ago: This one has the Voigt address on the label, the same as the Ceccherinis.
This has now finished, and I'm baffled. Am I missing something? £166 for the Ferrari, without a bridge, without a nut, with one fret missing, at least some visible warping of the top and who knows what other defects. It seems it's not just two bidders egging each other on -- four different bidders were willing to pay £135 or more for this basket case, when only last month this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3753954526&rd=1) lovely de Meglio fetched only £30.

I don't know what reputation Ferrari may have, but if people are really interested, the one at Hobgoblin has a bridge, a straight neck and is playable (though not exactly pristine) for about twice the price of this wreck. As Hobgoblin are currently asking for £465 for a very questionable de Meglio, I feel there is a lot of guesswork involved in pricing all around.

Martin

[Bob A]

Two interesting prospects at present on ebay.

Vega Lansing Special (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3764334231&rd=1) Is named for a mandolinist of the era, not the town.

Our own Ian has a nice Stridente (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3764372106&rd=1)
that needs some neck work. It looks to be a worthy project.

The Vega might be a real bargain. I've seen one languishing at $995; I've not played this model, but if they put half the effort into it that they did in their Pettine Special model, it would be a wonderful instrument.

[Martin Jonas]

That fake Vinaccia went for £185. Cheap for a Vinaccia, but far too much for what it appears to be.

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3764835813&rd=1) is a very peculiar bowl. No indication of great quality: fittings and decoration are bog-standard interwar or postwar Catania, but the shape is dizzingly narrow. I first thought that the photo might be distorted, but the peghead and bridge are in normal proportions and the scale length looks to be standard 330mm (so presumably not a piccolo).

We've seen this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3764737864&rd=1) daring set of matching mandobass, mandocello and mandolin before, with a much higher starting bid. Clearly, it remained unsold and is now offered without reserve. They look to be intriguing instruments, but in fairly poor condition.

Finally, here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3763228170&rd=1) is some poor soul who seems to be under delusions about the value of his bowlback. An unlabelled 10-rib entry level instrument in poor condition (is that a block marker at the 5th fret or a missing chunk of fingerboard?) -- can anybody else see why the seller might have been offered £250?

Martin

[Eugene]

Vega Lansing Special (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3764334231&rd=1) Is named for a mandolinist of the era, not the town.

The Vega might be a real bargain. I've seen one languishing at $995; I've not played this model, but if they put half the effort into it that they did in their Pettine Special model, it would be a wonderful instrument.
Other than the engraving on the head plate, this piece is identical to an entry level Vega I sold to a Cafe member (Jeff) who then sold it on eBay at ca. $250-300 (I don't recall details). #I've seen a number of "Lansing Specials" with remarkably little consistency of decorative style (this one is the least fancy of the lot). #Rather than being a Pettine-like specific model, I'm suspecting that George Lansing might have pushed Vega on his students and had any such of Vega's regular production equipped with a bit of Lansing personalization.

[Eugene]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3764835813&rd=1) is a very peculiar bowl. #No indication of great quality: fittings and decoration are bog-standard interwar or postwar Catania, but the shape is dizzingly narrow. #I first thought that the photo might be distorted, but the peghead and bridge are in normal proportions and the scale length looks to be standard 330mm (so presumably not a piccolo).
Nope, not a true piccolo, but this style is sometimes erroneously called piccolo. More properly, they are called "pockey mandolins," comparable to the pochette of the bowed realm. This one actually is pretty typical.

[John Bertotti]

I like that vega. So is it wrong to want a second Vega. I can't imagine it would play any better than the one I have it just has a little more ornamentation. Would there be enough sound quality difference to justify two Vegas? John

[etbarbaric]

I have a Vega Lansing Special, and while it clearly doesn't rise to the level of the Pettine Special, I don't think I'd count it as equivalent to an entry-level Vega either.

And there's nothing wrong with wanting more than one Vega... really...

Eric

[bratsche]

Another nice Vega (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3762282956&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) went for $312 the other day. AND it had been used by the seller to play Bach! I was jealous. The dark top really appealed to me. But then, I have no idea what they sound like, or if it would have had a mellow voice to match its looks. Best not to buy an instrument solely based on looks. Which is always my excuse, and why I'll probably never get up the nerve to join the Order of the Bowl. Sigh.

bratsche

[guitharsis]

Happy Thanksgiving, everyone

C'mon bratsche, take a chance . .

The small teardrop ivory pick ordered from you is so nice.
Even at my very basic level of playing it makes a difference in sound.

[bratsche]

Thanks for the kind words, Doreen! I really do need to replace my broken scanner and printer before worrying about a bowlback (though it's so easy to sit on eBay and ogle them....) "Business before pleasure" priorities, and all.

bratsche http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[John Bertotti]

Anyone catch this one yet. Miroglio (sp) Mandola?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....24&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3765276424&rd=1)

I'd bid but I figure someone will out bid me in the end anyway. I'll watch it though just in case it stays reasonable. John

[Martin Jonas]

Apart from being a mandola, that Miroglio has a considerable similarity with my mother's Roman-style Miroglio. That's not really a recommendation: it's a very thin-voiced and quiet instrument and I would be sceptical about the quality of their mandolas. The repairs needed sound fairly substantial, and may well be more than itemised in the description: the bridge position looks wrong and may be an indication of more extensive warping of top and/or neck, in which case decent intonation may be impossible. Doesn't sound appealing to me at any price. Incidentally, I strongly suspect that the "pickguard" is no such thing: on my mother's it's a patch of black paint on the top, no actual inlay or stratch protection.

Martin

[guitharsis]

Ian's Stridente auction went quite well. That Stridente will require a little bit of work too.

[John Bertotti]

I was thinking that Miroglio would be a good practice piece but after seeing the shipping costs I'll rule it out. I'll find a US dog someday no hurries. Thanks Martin. John

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello Jim,

Here is a picture of a photo album of mine, which I have completely forgotten, when we discussed the Puglisi on ebay. Look at the picture. It looks the same.

Good luck!

[Martin Jonas]

Ian's Stridente auction went quite well. #That Stridente will require a little bit of work too.
Yes, indeed. Prices seem to be going up all around. I think this is also testament to the wisdom of having good detailed descriptions -- Ian seems to be doing very well with his auctions because buyers can have the confidence of knowing precisely what they're getting.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

As I had noted on another thread, there were quite a few bowlbacks at CMSA. I saw three Pandinis (mine, Carlo's and another one played by another Carlo's disciple) a good handful of Calaces, the Embergher liuto and a a good gaggle of Vegas and Washburns.

So, even in the US there is a mild trend.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello,

The Albertini ´trainwreck´ arrived some days ago and not much is wrong with it; some pearl of it´s Mother is missing, a nice rosewood crack at the back and of course some pegs to add. But that´s all.

Nicely sawn and still dead straight fingerboard and a strong and flat soundtable. All in all a fine and interesting instrument.


Greetings,

Alex.

[Jim Garber]

Excellent, Alex. It sounds like you are pleased with your purchase. Glad to have had a part in making it happen.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Yes Jim very much so! And also happy to have such fine pupils who see the beauty of the various mandolin types and want to play them.

You played a much bigger part in the Brescian one. For which many thanks go in your direction!
Here a picture of both the Albertinis.

Greetings,

Alex.

Copyright Photo Alex Timmerman ©

[Jim Garber]

Oops! That's right! I had nothing to do with the Lombard but with the Brescian.

Jim

[Bob A]

A seemingly clean Brandt (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3764704365&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW) on the bay. Currently $56, 37 hrs to go, reserve not met.

[vkioulaphides]

Uhm... so the Brescian Albertini is the four-stringed one? And the other one, (judging from the holes left by the missing pegs) the 12-string instrument, is a what? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Among such erudite company, I cannot help but lose track of who-is-who and what-is-what...

[Eugene]

Yup, the 4-stringer is Brescian, and, nope, the 6-string instrument is a Lombard mandolin. Violin-like, one peg per string and the pegs go all the way through.

[vkioulaphides]

Ah... capito. Thanks, Eugene. And Sr. Albertini —deliberately, just so as to confuse the likes of me— built some of both kinds, eh? *sigh*

They do look lovely, though...

[Eugene]

What make and gauge of strings are you using on the Brescian-type mandolin, Alex? How do you like the response?

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Eugene,

For the Mandolino Bresciano I use gut strings for the 2 highest ones and silver (nylon-)silk wound for the 2 lower strings. And that is also what I would recommend you for yours.

The Mandolino Lombardo is strung with gut for the 3 highest ones and, again, silver (nylon-)silk wound for the 3 lower strings.

If you do not have the possibility to string your mandolin(s) with gut strings, you can also put plain nylon- as an alternative for the plain gut strings.

These strings I order directly from Sebastian Nuñez in Utrecht (Netherlands).


Greetings,

Alex

PS. In order to know what precise thickness is needed for your Brescian mandolin, it is best to measure the vibrating string-lenght of your instrument and give that and the pitch of the mandolin type to Sebastian (or to your own string man/woman). Most of the time his calculations are pretty acurate. Succes.

Copyright Photo Alex Timmerman ©

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Victor,

Carlo Albertini (and his sons) also build the Neapolitan- and Roman mandolin types.

Fun isn´t it?!


Greetings,

Alex

[Martin Jonas]

This Ferrari (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3761220962&rd=1) is interesting in view of the discussion of Alban Voigt we had a few months ago: This one has the Voigt address on the label, the same as the Ceccherinis.
This has now finished, and I'm baffled. #Am I missing something? #£166 for the Ferrari, without a bridge, without a nut, with one fret missing, at least some visible warping of the top and who knows what other defects.
As seems to be the case quite often, this (relatively) high-rolling auction has flooded other Ferraris onto the market:
this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3765304505&rd=1) one looks in decent shape. The decoration isn't much to my liking, but the buyer gets several tortoiseshell plectrums with it, which on their own are quite valuable these days. I note that the label on this one does not refer to Alban Voigt. Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3762197949&rd=1) is another Ferrari, much more basic and in much worse condition (no tuners and no bridge, two splits to bowl).

Martin

[Eugene]

I do like the satinwood binding on the first. However, I'm not much for scrolled pearl lozenges set in black mastic.

[Eugene]

Here is a nice looking Lyon & healy-made Ditson (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3766466045&rd=1). The seller ackowledges "two hair line cracks in the top;" one might be hairline, but the other is pretty evident and might need some attention. Still, top cracks are rarely a big issue.

[bratsche]

Alex -

What are those interesting, um, things at the tops of those headstocks called? They must have a name, but I have never seen or heard it.

Every time I see those, I think they need either a tiny miniature painting or a mirror mounted on them.

Maybe even a smiley-face! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

bratsche

[Jim Garber]

What are those interesting, um, things at the tops of those headstocks called? #They must have a name, but I have never seen or heard it.
Not sure of the technical name for those, but it is a typical "crookneck" design somewhat releated to the squash of the same name. High-end Emberghers mandolins have them as well as more modern copies like Pandinis. I always thought that a technically minded person could put a small television set or computer monitor into it.

Jim

[Eugene]

What are those interesting, um, things at the tops of those headstocks called? #They must have a name, but I have never seen or heard it.
Finial. I tend to refer to the whole of the thing as a sickle-shaped pegbox with a partial scroll terminating in a square finial. Stradivari (http://www.usd.edu/smm/StradMandolin.html) and Dan Larson's earlier models featured a shield-shaped finial:
http://www.daniellarson.com/mandolins/mandolino/donna2.jpg

[Jim Garber]

Thanks, Eugene, for the correct term. I will never remember it, but that is why I am glad that you are around.

Jim

[Eugene]

Anytime.

[berkeleymando]

Hi folks, I just noticed that Brian Dean (Montreal luthier) just posted some interesting pictures of a wild looking bowlback he made on his web site:


http://www.bfolk.com/jen20gallery/FrameSet.htm

I'd be curious to hear thoughts that people have about this design.

[Jim Garber]

Brian actually consulted with us at this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=19046;)

Jim

[Bob A]

Interesting and presumably well-made instrument; needs a bridge, but looks like it might be worth the effort. Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3766803207&rd=1) it is; not familiar with the maker, Montaldi.

And here's a nice Maurer (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3765845588&rd=1) - a lower-end model, but pretty birdseye maple.

[Jim Garber]

Interesting and presumably well-made instrument; needs a bridge, but looks like it might be worth the effort. Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3766803207&rd=1) it is; not familiar with the maker, Montaldi.
Here is another Giovanni Montaldi mandolin that appeared on eBay in janurary of this year. This one is also rosewood bowled but not fluted with a different headstock. The sellker stated that it was from the 1920s and that it has a Alban Voight label.

Marco is the high bidder of the one currently on eBay. I think the fluted back will attract interest. I would say £500-600 for the final bid.

I just noticed that the dollar to GBP ration is close to 2:1 now. Makes it easier to figure out prices for me.

Jim

[Eugene]

Hi folks, I just noticed that Brian Dean (Montreal luthier) just posted some interesting pictures of a wild looking bowlback he made on his web site:


http://www.bfolk.com/jen20gallery/FrameSet.htm

I'd be curious to hear thoughts that people have about this design.
Looks like an oud.

[Jim Garber]

About Brian's bowlback (from his homepage):

Lords, and Ladies, ahem. Not a reproduction, straight from the imagination, a cross between a lute, a mandolin, and a Court Jester's trousers. A beautiful tone, harp-like, voluminous, and sweet, you can hear her played at the Renaissance Fair in California (that's in the New World, mind you), should you fortuitously stumble upon the fair Jennifer a-strumming.

He was commisioned to make something look Renaissance-like, not to make an authentic historical repro. I think visually he achieved that and it will work well for thos attending those faires. I emailed him on how it sounds etc. Perhaps he will chime in here.

I like the way it looks (with the exception of what looks like a cartoon bunny on one of the soundholes. I am not sure if I would want one of these, prob lean more to the classic bowlbacks of the golden era.

BTW it must be real fun to tune with metal strings and violin pegs. Hmmm... he is partway to making a mandolino...

Jim

[Jim Garber]

This mandola (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3766226216) seems to be a German-made Embergher style. It is hard to tell if it is a tenor mandola or for octave tuning. it is also hard to see if the fretboard is radiussed or not. I do like its simplicity. I am not in the market tho.

"Goldklang" is stamped on the soundboard. Looks like one that Ian may know about?

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

The German text says "much much bigger than a mandolin, as big as a concert guitar". I'd say that points to something larger than a mandola, maybe a mandocello. The seller also says that he inherited it from his father, who in turn inherited it from his great-grandfather (!). Sounds a bit too many generations to me to be consistent with the looks of the instrument, which points towards 1910s or 1920s, I'd say. Mind you, the seller's father also supposedly said it's to be tuned CDAG, which seems rather muddled.

"Goldklang" means "golden tone", and is one of those phrases that appear pretty widely on German instruments ("Edelklang" and "Wohlklang" being others). I'm not so sure that they are actually brand names; they're certainly not indications of superior quality. Rather the opposite, in fact. Still, it's a nice maple bowl.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

I would second Martin's intelligent guess of mandocello.

As for the lutoid... the instrument that comes to mind is the folk-lute we call "Polítiko" in Greece; no, NOT as in politics but as in "Constantinopolitan". It is the one developed in pre-revolutionary Constantinople, present-day Istanbul, as a crossbreed between the oud and the numerous bass folk-lutes that evolved in the Greek islands that were under Venetian rule— a most interesting cross-pollenization! The Turks call it "lavta"; such instruments, still made in Istanbul today, do come up on eBay from time to time.

The "laoúto polítiko" is tuned to (A)A-dd-aa-d'd' (The parenthesis indicates that it is, more often than not, a 7-string instrument. Its "harmonic bias" is clearly D-keyed, with the upper three courses tuned to the familiar bozuk düzeni, the Venetian quintaquarta DAD, with an additional, dominant drone in the bottom, single- or double-strung.

Lovely instrument, sans fauna. I wish I could tell the pudding's flavor from afar.

[labraid]

Howdy Jim, and all. The offer to chime in, absolutely I'll take it. For the visual appearance, you're right it was to go for something one might imagine when one thinks of the Renaissance, and for that I am very happy with the finished product. The sound, the tone, is intriguing, it's quite like a cross between an archtop mandolin, presumably because of the non-flat back, and one of my flat-top mandolins.The top is braced with an induced arch mostly in my usual fashion with a few slight modifications which I came about through a bit of research and trial. It plays and sounds equally well quietly and loudly, and volume is not lacking in any sense. The bass, midtones, and trebles are well balanced and ring clear.. I can say without a doubt that it is one of the finest sounding instruments I have made to date, though does not sound much at all, in my view, like a "traditional" bowlback. Here's a quick quip from the mando herself (recorded on the free microphone that comes with the computer, so you can trust it's better in real life, best if you have good speakers to listen on)[edit, fixed link]: http://www.bfolk.com/cafe/farewellbowlback.mp3
And as for the rabbit, I was a bit apprehensive about the idea at first, but after we shrunk it down to this size (it was going to be much bigger at first) it was less intrusive on the whole.. Her boyfriend drew that for her, she loves it and absolutely wanted it here on the mandolin. I'm happy since she's happy, of course.
I have to tune a few things before I send her off, the bridge needs a trimming down to get the action right, and a bit of nut work as well, and then it will play as easily and fast as any other finely tuned machine...
As for tuning those strings (light gauge afterall, Jim), well it wasn't easy by any means until I made a wood wrench to give me some leverage on those pegs. Now it's pretty simple and quick to do. Stays in tune very nicely also.

That's all for now, you guys take care.

Brian

[Martin Jonas]

What a nice tone, very intriguing! You're right, it's not much like a bowlback, more like an oval-hole archtop with an additional resonator-like quality. Seems to have great sustain, and more low range than most bowlbacks. I'd love to give this one a go!

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

Hmm... can't get those links to work; "URL not found on this server"... obviously, Martin did manage to listen to the samples. Oh, well...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Vega "Lansing" sold for $436, certainly more than I would have paid for it. Then again, there IS that trend we have discussed on this thread. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

While I would certainly consider a life surrounded by mandolins, in various states of (dis)repair pleasant, I must admit I don't see the business in it. Messrs Mazzaccara, Onorati, et alii, will have to excuse me for failing to comprehend their raison d'etre.

[Martin Jonas]

Brian got his link a bit muddled up and as a result, it won't work by just clicking on it. Try this (http://www.bfolk.com/cafe/farewellbowlback.mp3) link instead.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, the Vega "Lansing" sold for $436, certainly more than I would have paid for it.
There is a Lansing at Lark Street Music (http://www.larkstreet.com/list/pict/VegaLans.jpg) for $995 that has been there for quite some time. I don't recall seeing it while I was there last year. I have to make another trip.

Jim

[labraid]

Here's a better demonstration of the sound, some chords and a bit of (imperfect) improv: http://www.bfolk.com/jen20gallery/jen20demo.mp3

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Bratche,

This particular head is called a ´square finial´ and yes you are right; a little ornament is nice at that place.
In fact often early Mandolinos do carry artistic expressions like a carved face or a flower in the ivory (or bone) there.


Greetings,

Alex

[Plamen Ivanov]

Two more Puglisi mandolins with the common butterfly pattern. Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3766046195&rd=1) and here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3766056194&rd=1).


Good luck!

[onthefiddle]

Was anyone else watching the end of the Montaldi auction? I can't really say that this one slipped through my fingers - more leaped!
Jim - you were a little out this time, try trebling your estimate to 1605 Pounds! It suddenly shot up from 310 Pounds in the last 20 seconds of the auction.
I'd imagine there's one happy seller out there!
Jon

[Jim Garber]

Yikes! I am losing my touch. Perhaps there is something about this maker that we don't know. Any clues? Alex?

I suppose any well-made Italian mandolin with fluting will go for a decent amount, but that seems like closer to a big three price.

Jim

[Bob A]

Well, it's not a bowlback, but it's still interesting, and lord knows it has enough strings: at Bernunzio's (http://bernunzio.com/cgi-bin/bernunzio/showimg2000?img=048642).

[guitharsis]

Bob -

I'm actually going to Bernunzio's next week to have Julie take a look at my Stridente and give me an appraisal. #I'll be down on East Avenue anyway to attend a meeting of the Italian Women's Civic Club at the Century Club, and figured it would be a good time to do both.

Maybe I'll get a chance to take a look at some of the other mandolins in Bernunzio's inventory. #Mine is the only bowlback I've ever seen so far. #My teacher told me today that it was in better condition and plays louder than any of the bowlbacks he's seen. #We'll see what Julie thinks.

Edit: Stopped by Bernunzio's today because I was out that way. John looked over my mandolin and said he would give me an opinion rather that a written appraisal and that his opinion wouldn't cost me anything. That was so nice of him. He said that he thought the Stridente was well worth the price paid. He also said that the neck was nice and straight (ebony or ebonized?) that the set-up was good and that the mandolin was in very nice condition overall. Good to hear from an expert.

I did get to see and hear him play some of the other bowlback mandolins. He has some very nice ones there. He also played some of the A style vintage Gibson's which sounded very good. He has several of them in stock.

[Jim Garber]

Bob:
That is some sort of bandurria. After some surfing it could be a variant of a Colombian bandola which has either 12 or 14 strings.

It is very interesting that it has an O. Pagani label and it looks almost American in manufacture. Perhaps a Colombian came into the store on Bleecker (which was a music store and also published thier own sheet music, mostly accordion and mandolin and guitar, as far as I know) and ordered such an instrument. I imagine that Pagani would commission one of the mandolin makers in Greenwich Village to make this instrument.

Jim

[morgan]

There's Weymann Keystone State bowlback on e-bay this week - basic and un-ornamented. The link is

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....64&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3768644964&rd=1)

Weymann mandolutes seem to enjoy a decent reputation, but I haven't seen any discussion of their bowlbacks. Any comments on these?

The same vendor is also selling a nice-looking Mayflower.

[trebleclef528]

Quote:Was anyone else watching the end of the Montaldi auction? I can't really say that this one slipped through my fingers - more leaped!
Jim - you were a little out this time, try trebling your estimate to 1605 Pounds! It suddenly shot up from 310 Pounds in the last 20 seconds of the auction.
I'd imagine there's one happy seller out there!

Not such a happy seller.....the bid was a scam. The bidder had just registered and had made loopy purchases on all sorts of things for ££££££$$$$$$ lots....very sick person.
Still the second highest bidder looked genuine.
Regards,
ian

[onthefiddle]

Yes, I see that they're no longer a registered user, with a feedback rating of minus 4, though I hardly think that would have been much of a deterent.
Still, the second bidder's amount wasn't much less - so if that bid was genuine then the seller has good reason to feel pretty chuffed!
When I posted that, I was still quite shocked from attempting to bid just a little higher, and then being told that my bid wasn't valid because it was under £1605! I got back to the auction just as it ended.
I would imagine the second highest bidder hadn't been expecting to go up to their maximum bid.
P.S. Thanks for the warning about the recent Gibson scam.

[onthefiddle]

I just searched for the auctions that the highbidder had won.
There are six pages of them, the highest bid being of over £90,000 on a RangeRover.

[Martin Jonas]

This is becoming a regular Ebay menace: the same thing happened to me when I bought the Ceccherini last month. I intended to go to £330, found myself outbid by a no-feedback bidder and reluctantly raised it to £400. No go. A third bidder went to £480, but still didn't get it. The high bidder then turned out to be a prank, possibly the same guy as in the Montaldi auction, and his then-Ebay-identity was kicked off (but then Ebay identities are disposable).

In my instance, the story had a happy end, at least for me, as the second-highest bidder wasn't interested anymore, and I got the Ceccherini for my highest bid. However, these instances leave a bad taste for everybody, and the person who is most affected is the highest "real" bidder: without the prank bid, his maximum would never have been exposed and he would have won the auction at the price for the third highest bid (plus one bidding increment). In this instance, that's £300.

Martin

[trebleclef528]

Interesting Mandolin on Ebay Italy Very Fancy (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=623&item=3769294618&rd=1)

[Jim Garber]

Interesting Mandolin on Ebay Italy Very Fancy (http://cgi.ebay.it/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=623&item=3769294618&rd=1)
I love the term "madreperla". Strange he says he ships worldwide then at the bottom says only Italy.

Any clue what this is, Ian?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here's a somewhat similar one from my files. It looks like the pickguard is very similarly shaped. I think this was also on eBay about 1 year ago but i have no further info on this one either.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Embergher (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3767751699)? I doubt it. Strange listing. Says the instrument is in the US but the seller is in Italy.

Jim

[Bob A]

OK, it's not a bowlback. OK, it's not even a mandolin.

But it is a record autographed by Pettine inscribed to Howard Frye.

Someone here ought to be interested in this. (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=306&item=4060360157&rd=1)

[Martin Jonas]

Embergher (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3767751699)? #I doubt it. Strange listing. Says the instrument is in the US but the seller is in Italy.
I think that's the same instrument as this (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3737680033&rd=1&ssPageName=WD2V) which we discussed in this thread in July. The earlier photos aren't around anymore, but the high bidder on the previous auction is the seller on the current auction. As he/she has a feedback of 1, and thus is clearly not a frequent Ebayer, it's fairly unlikely that this is a coincidence. Looks to me as if Marco and Carotina came to an off-Ebay deal and Carotina has now finally realised that this wasn't the real deal after all.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Yes, Martin, we are starting to see a lot of recycling. The seller even used Marco's pictures but conveniently left off the one with the label. Definitely the same bogus one.

Jim

[John Bertotti]

Here are two instruments that look interesting. Domenico Salvadori (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3771266833&rd=1)
and a Massimo Marcato (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3770731634&rd=1)
Both I think claim to be from Napoli. Have fun John http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


I scanned along a little further and found a Ferrari mandolin. Man I bet that is a fast player. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif John

[Jim Garber]

That Salvadori looks to be a prime candidate for a serious neck reset. Otherwise looks like a decent instrument.

Jim

[John Bertotti]

I was looking at all the pics enlarged and to me it looks like a bowl crack and the top separating along one side. They do look interesting as projects though. to bad I can't bid right now. John

[vkioulaphides]

Massimo Marcato's mandolins aren't bad at all, at least when combined (in mando-orchestras, that is) with those of Molto Legato— for the sake of contrast, of course! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jasona]

No comments on the R. Calace in the classifieds?

[Jim Garber]

No comments on the R. Calace in the classifieds?
I assume you are talking about ad # 12266?

A few of us were offered that one a few months ago at that price. A little tool rich for my blood, tho I wish the seller had brought it to CMSA to try, at least.

Jim

[Bob A]

Odd Calace, that one. Peghead looks vey un-Calace; oddly, the label seems t indicate it was made by the Vinaccia branch of the family.

[jasona]

I assume you are talking about ad # 12266?
Yes, correct sorry.

It is interesting to learn of the oddness Bob.

[Jim Garber]

I have a low bid (currently outbid) on this Embergher (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3773580105&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1) orchestra model 1. I am sure it will go way higher than I would even consider tho it looks like it has some issues. Aside from the back crack it is hard to tell if the neck needs resetting. It also looks like the bridge is possibly not original.

Nevertheless it is an Embergher, or certainly resembles one.

BTW how do these differ in tone from the soloist models. I imagine that these are mellower in general?

Thanks again, Alex, for your wonderful Embergher site!

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,

Thanks Jim, it is indeed a true Embergher mandolin of the model you described.
The only thing not original is the bridge.
And apart from some rib fractures (and what looks like a burning accident), it seems OK.

As for the sound of the orchestra (and student) models I would say that they have in all aspects already everything the higher (sculpted back) mandolins have: sustain and clarity on all strings and ranges.

The differences in sound between these and the soloist models are not easy to explain in words, but I will give it a try here: in my opinion the sound differs from the soloist models because the latter instruments have a more distinguished, a more sophisticated and noble sound. Especially in the lower range of the instrument. But to catch this in words.... #

And there are really wonderful sounding student- #and orchestra models that could easily compete with almost every other maker´s high end models (sorry, got carried away in my enthousiasm http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif )


It is perhaps interesting to know that in the coming months I hope to put some sound samples of the various Embergher instruments/models at Recordings page (http://www.embergher.com/index.php?page=recordings) of the Embergher.com Website to listen to.


Best and good luck with your bidding Jim,

Alex

[onthefiddle]

Less interesting, though certainly having it's own merits, is this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3773771882&rd=1), presumably American, higher end instrument - does anyone have an idea of what it might be?
It has a crack in the front - still not as bad as the cracks across the grain on the Embergher, that looks like it's had a nasty bash.
Unfortunately it also appears that someone has glued the Embergher badly with copious quantities of superglue (crazyglue on the other side of the Atlantic) or Epoxy. There's lot's of work for a luthier there - not that it's not worth it of course http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Martin Jonas]

Another relabelled de Meglio on Ebay UK (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3773741834&rd=1). This one is labelled "Romito & Carbone", but looks identical to the standard de Meglio model, and also to my "Carlo Rinaldi" labelled one. As before, it's difficult to say with certainty whether these relabelled ones came out of the de Meglio workshop and were labelled up by wholesalers/distributors, or whether they were imitations. Either way, this one looks in decent enough condition from the few photos that there are, but it's peculiar that there is no photo showing the entire instrument from the front.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

For those of Northern Italian tastes: Monzino (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=623&item=3773373473&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

I am not necessarily endorsing or recommending this, as I am totally, completely, and unapologetically rank ignorant, when it comes to these critters. All I know is that Sr. Monzino has "come under the tongue in good repute" more than once.

Also, the seller seems to confuse his own inability to play this instrument —hardly reprehensible— and the instrument's alleged state of "not being playable". So, this may be a cheap entry into the genre.

This, or the owner is sly as a fox and is trying to outfox the likes of us... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[etbarbaric]

OK... I'll bite. I've bid on the Monzino Lombardian. It seems typical of the form, though it will clearly need some restoration. My wife's family ancestory sports the name "Monzingo" (they think its French-derived). I harbor the fantasy that the name is really a modification on Monzino... Maybe with that connection I can get the thing in the door without fear of retribution... :-)

Eric

[vkioulaphides]

Good luck, Eric!

Sure, Monzingo, Monzino... what the heck? Besides, you have a fine example to go by, as this seller offers a plethora of variants, e.g. Malano, Millano, and what have you, for the familiar metropolis, midway between Rome's possessions in Italia and those in Germania, hence Mediolanum, present-day M-i-l-a-n-o, "middle of the road".

Tell us how this goes. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim Garber]

Here is another example from the same workshop. I think that Carlo M had this one some time ago. I like the sausage-shaped soundhole and pickguard.

Jim

[RSW]

Eric, go for it! I have one and they are well made and the sound, though guitar like, is a pleasant change from his wire strung cousin from Naples. You can cheat and use it for the Hoffmann quartets when playing with modern string players.

Richard

[etbarbaric]

Thanks for the encouragement Richard. I thought I remembered you having a Monzino. I have an Albertini that I had restored (at great expense), and I like it quite well. I agree that Hoffmann works quite well on these instruments.

Does your Monzino have a scratch-plate? This one, interestingly, does not.

Best,

Eric

[RSW]

Eric, I can't upload to web storage site so I'll send you some photos privately of my Monzino.... maybe you can post them here for the others. Cheers, Richard

[etbarbaric]

Here is a composite of Richard's Monzino Lombardian mandolin (as he requested). Thanks for sharing the photos Richard, it is indeed lovely.

Best,

Eric

[vkioulaphides]

Nice!

And (please forgive the recalcitrant), these are the ones tuned to G-B-E-A-D-G?

Meanwhile, said eBay item is climbing relentlessly... I meant well. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[etbarbaric]

Hi Victor,

Yes, these are tuned just like a 6-course mandolino. In fact, they *are* six-course mandolinos, just with single, rather than doubled courses.

This was the final incarnation of the mandolino, surviving well into the last century. In fact, you can see them being played right along side the Neapolitan instruments of the day (there are three or four in the the jacket photo on Paul Sparks' "The Classical Mandolin", (the Reale circolo mandolinisti, Regina Margherita, Florence 1892)).

And yes... someone else seems interested in this particular instrument in addition to myself. I hate when that happens... :-).

Best,

Eric

[Martin Jonas]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3773562308&rd=1) is a curiosity. I've heard some mention in the forum of aluminium bowls but hadn't seen one before. This one here, said to be from Egypt, is obviously a wreck, but I'd be curious whether anybody had any experience with a playable aluminium bowl. If it stays unsold, maybe someone wants to make an offer for the bridge on its own, which looks a standard Neapolitan-style one.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

As to aluminium (or as we over here say, aluminum, for some reason) bowls, I had a Merrill bowlback quite a few years back. I sold it way before I was into bowlbacks. They do not sound so bad. A little ringy as you may imagine.

I have never seen an Italian one in the DeMeglio style and from Egypt. no less.

Hard to tell what the bridge is or whether it would be worth it just for the bridge.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, I recall a wealthy dilettante who was proudly name-dropping, going through all her fellow-alumini from an Ivy League institution. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I'd stick to wood.

[jasona]

*groans*

[Bob A]

I've seen a Merrill aluminium bowlback, years ago. I'd love to get one in decent shape. By all reports, they sound better than you'd imagine.

Shouldn't it be fellow-alumina? (Feminine)

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, I meant plural masculine/collective. But, as the effect was more one of tin-headedness, cassitera may have been the appropriate, metallic reference. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I'd still stick to dulce lignum for mandolins, though.

[Bob A]

My mistake - aluminae would be plural. I must be a bit disordered from eating crassiteria cooking.

[Martin Jonas]

A link to another aluminium bowl (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=359&item=3774796825&rd=1) has just been posted on the general (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=21267;st=0;r=1;&#entry225435) forum. This one looks stunning: all aluminium, including top and neck. I can't see how this works -- presumably the top doesn't do much oscilliating and there seems to be no resonator to produce a tone. At least this construction should eliminate most structural issues: an aluminium neck joint may well fail completely, but probably won't need a reset.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

The Merrill I had has a spruce canted top and sounded pretty decent. That Hutchins is prob more of a novelty tho the back and top are nicely engraved.

Here is another Hutchins that appeared on ebay in November of 2003.

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello,

Here (http://www.robertnormann.no/images/gitar19.jpg) is an interesting Puglisi. Looks like master model with fingerboard extension, armrest, mother of pearl bars and pickguard frayed of picking.

[Jim Garber]

Plami:
Is that one for sale or from this guy's collection? It looks nice but certainly needs some work.

There is another of this mandolin photo here (http://www.robertnormann.no/images/gitar20.jpg).

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Everything, that I know about this mandolin is, what I found on the site itself. The mandolin belonged to Robert Normann`s father. May be if I try to contact the Robert Normann society I could find out more about this Puglisi`s fortune.

I just sent them a question.

[onthefiddle]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10179&item=3775368324&rd=1) is another instrument requiring a lot of professional restoration, what do you think about the label - is it genuine?

[vkioulaphides]

Part of the answer is another question: Are you (i.e. the potential buyer) a luthier yourself? The point being that the cost of this restoration would be ENORMOUS! So, even if the credentials of the instrument are OK, and if you acquire it for, say, $100, plan on 10-15 times over that for a full restoration, IF such restoration is possible at all. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[onthefiddle]

This mandolin could definitely be restored - you would be amazed at what can be done if the instrument is worth it!
You are right about it being costly of course.
Unfortunately the seller won't ship outside the USA - so I can't pursue it.

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, well... Of course, yes, it can be restored; as you say correctly, the crucial issue is authenticity: a Strad in the form of toothpicks is still a Strad, and someone out there will undertake to restore it.

You could take the determinist or the stoic approach to this: http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

If you are assured of authenticity, and wish to acquire this instrument, I am sure that a US-based "proxy" could procure this on your behalf, on terms mutually agreed upon by yourself and said proxy.

If not, just shrug and walk away. It was sour grapes, anyhow... (instrument was too beat up, labor costs would have been staggering, seller only shipped within the U.S., etc. etc.)