Bowlbacks of Note [Archive] - Page 17

Martin Jonas

Apr-21-2008, 4:38am

We've mentioned Guriema's "Calace" mandolins before, but I've only just noticed that Lark In The Morning (http://larkinthemorning.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_MAN040_A_Calache+Style+Mandolin +with+case_E_) stock them in the US. I wonder whether their, err, creative spelling is out of ignorance or out of an attempt to avoid trademark issues, like the Givson-brand mandolin from India. Of course it may also be honesty: there is very little in the photo that looks like a Calace to me.

Regarding price, yes I know the dollar is rock-bottom, but you could still get an actual Calace for that.

http://larkinthemorning.com/images/350/man040.jpg

Martin

Arto

Apr-21-2008, 5:57am

"I wonder whether their, err, creative spelling is out of ignorance or out of an attempt to avoid trademark issues, like the Givson-brand mandolin from India."

I remember when Musikalia was marketing "Gybson model" mandolins. It´s astonishing that their present listing is "Gibson" model. I´d think the guys in Catania would be attacked by an army of lawyers by now.

vkioulaphides

Apr-21-2008, 7:36am

Greetings, all.

Just finished the spring season at the opera yesterday, with a production of Puccini's La Fanciulla del West, the Italian master's ultimate spaghetti-Western. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #The librettist(s), trying to get Italian casts to "sound American", used such hilariously inventive spellings as Hao wari. (For ye curious minds: that's "How are you?" #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

I suspect that part of the above is deliberate trademark infringement, the rest, ah... linguistic challenges. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Musikalia is ever the firm to offer "special reducted-size mandolin for womens and small persons", and/or praise their wares as having fine, "nasal sound". Go figure...

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... the Herwiga sold for a pittance, under $100. All told, it was clearly worth more than that. I wish the new owner much joy with it.

Cheers,

Victor

Martin Jonas

Apr-21-2008, 8:29am

Meanwhile, back at the ranch... the Herwiga sold for a pittance, under $100. All told, it was clearly worth more than that. I wish the new owner much joy with it.
As far as I can see, the winning bit was GBP 102, i.e. somewhat over $200. Still a more than reasonable price, but not quite the pittance Victor describes.

Martin

vkioulaphides

Apr-21-2008, 8:42am

Hmm... I must have been looking at a screen that had not been updated, and listed GBP 37-something. Still, as Martin writes,the real winning bid was modest, by any standard.

Martin Jonas

Apr-21-2008, 9:05am

Alert for US fans of Italian bowlbacks: Have a look in the Cafe classifies, Ad #28137. #This is described as an "Umberto" mandolin, but the seller is clearly confused between the maker's first name and surname as this is evidently a Ceccherini. #Asking price of $450 is pretty reasonable, I would think.

No financial interest, needless to say, but it strikes me as a good opportunity for our US brethren without having to deal with overseas shipping and weak dollar exchange rates.

Also in the Classifieds: a modest Washburn bowlback for a modest $200 (#27882). #Both bowls are in Nashville -- clearly not just bluegrassers in town...

http://www.mandolincafe.com/classifieds/upload/28137.jpg

Martin

Fliss

Apr-21-2008, 2:08pm

Jim Garber

Apr-21-2008, 2:14pm

Looks as if the seller has read your comments Martin - they've amended the ad.
Now, if they can only amend their typos:
"Umberto Ceccherni"

"$450 incl sipping to lower 48 states."

Hmmmm... I would love to have one of those... Ah, someday.

Bob A

Apr-21-2008, 5:40pm

Go for it, Jim, your collection needs a double-soundboard example. BTW, the description has been modified to include Sr. Ceccherini.

That tasty Salsedo went for more than I could sustain at this time, around 600 euros. Just as well, I suppose.

mandocaster

Apr-21-2008, 10:27pm

Can anyone identify this one? It might have been missed since it is called a "roundbelly".

I don't have any particular interest in buying it, but it looks interesting. I don't know if it is "noteworthy".

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=019 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=290222901967&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=019)

Bob A

Apr-21-2008, 10:52pm

While I don't recognise it, I'd say Italian (love the maple) with a replacement tailpiece, needing some work (obviously). I'd put 150-200 into it if I wanted another mandolin, figuring it'd take the same again to get it right. Too bad about the headstock; some folks can't be trusted with tools.

Love the maple. Please, someone here bid on it, so I won't have to.

Martin Jonas

Apr-22-2008, 1:51am

Nice bowl, but too many condition issues for me. Looks in the photos like there's a label in there -- if you're seriously interested, why not ask the seller what it says?

On the other hand, I could use those tuners -- my single-top Ceccherini needs replacements as the current ones keep seizing up. These look identical.

Martin

Bob A

Apr-22-2008, 2:38pm

Not that interested; the bowl is inspiring, but I have too many "potential" manolins waiting for the luthiers. Winning bidder is "musicalparts" - maybe you should check and see if the tuners are available? Sounds like a chop shop guy.

Martin Jonas

Apr-22-2008, 5:53pm

vkioulaphides

Apr-23-2008, 3:11pm

While I hasten to pre-empt that I do NOT recommend this (http://cgi.ebay.de/ital-Rundbauch-Profimandoline-restauriert-ein-Unikat_W0QQitemZ320241260013QQcmdZViewItem) oddity, the left-handed Moroccan long-necked lutoid player (or something) is, ah... of some note.

Perhaps a whole new Pickguard Art Gallery thread?

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

brunello97

Apr-23-2008, 6:38pm

"Musicalparts" is the purchasing arm of those Vietnamese mandolin collectives -- we'll see that mandolin again in a few weeks with the defects repaired, a complete thick refinish, and with some serious bling added. #Pity, really, but as I don't see anybody else putting in the shop time required it's difficult to begrudge it. #Better this than if they butcher a Vinaccia (as they have in the past).

Martin
Fair enough, Martin, but it is interesting that you note this as a purchasing collective, perhaps with deep enough pockets to outbid the real or aspiring Dave Hyndes of the world operating solo. I remain foolish enough to begrudge it or besaddened by it as alternatives remain, not the least of which might ask the Brotherhood to stand up through a steady round of communication.

Perhaps these plasticized Italian bowls find a market somewhere (where?), but I imagine the MusicalParts folks are good capitalists and might be sensitive to certain market pressures even if they appear oblivious to the obvious cultural/aesthetic problems involved. Granted that Western museums, boutiques and ethnological collections are full of appropriated artifacts from other cultures repackaged for local consumption, but I've never bought the argument that just because 'we' do it that somehow it is okay if it is done to us. Mostly because I've endured the better part of my adult life being hammered into separating the me from the 'we' viz this range of cultural appropriation.

Could be a Quixote-an task, but I've found myself bidding against the shadowy MusicalParts and writing plaintiff emails (to no avail.) Seeing that maple bowl boomerang back under a cm of gym floor poly will no doubt link Bob and I in a certain melancholy.

Mick

Bob A

Apr-23-2008, 7:43pm

It's a sad thing to realise that one can't rescue all the deserving mandolins. But when I hit the lottery, Ima hire myself a luthier and do my part.

Howzabout that pictorial guard? Vaguely Rousseau-like, if I'm thinking of the right guy. Also reminds me of a few of my Hawaiian shirts, with the Friendly Natives Cavorting theme.

girldingo

Apr-23-2008, 8:04pm

Hi all,

Any string recommendations for the Ceccherini bowlback? Yes, I've purchased the one in the classifieds; I've always wanted an old italian! I've been told that the mandolin has been wearing D'addario lights for about a year, so, I'm sure it's ready for a change.

Ilene

vkioulaphides

Apr-24-2008, 8:16am

CONGRATULATIONS! Way to go, Ilene! I once owned a Ceccherini, and loved it dearly; I only parted with it as I "transitioned" to a modern Calace, and could only spend my (already minimal) mando-time on one instrument.

As for strings: start with GHS bronze-wound extra-lights; they are readily available, and cost little. Just Strings is as good an outlet as you'll ever find. If a bit more ambitious, I heartily recommend Lenzner/Fisoma strings, which are what I use myself.

I wish you much joy with your new "baby".

Cheers,

Victor

Bob A

Apr-24-2008, 10:53am

Of all the bowlbacks I've played, the Ceccherinis have the most distinctive sound. I really enjoy them, and I'm sure you will as well.

I have Lenzners on mine.

girldingo

Apr-24-2008, 12:58pm

Thank you! I'm very excitedly awaiting the arrival of my italian "friend" Umberto! Regarding the strings - I've been using Lenzner consorts on my Lyon & Healy C and I really like them. Should I get the consorts or the lighter gauge for the Umberto C?

It's interesting that one of my top ten favorite films is "Umberto D" by DeSica.

Ciao,
Ilene

vkioulaphides

Apr-24-2008, 2:02pm

The real distinction, Ilene, is not so much "lightness", as the fact the the "Consort" set has flat-wound A-strings, not plain steel. Much of the answer rests with taste, and thus cannot be argued. I prefer the Consort set, finding it optimal for the classical repertoire --IMHO-- while I also love the plain-A Lenzners for their more "folkie" sound. But do not worry that the Consort set would ever be "too heavy", less yet that these strings, wound A's and all, would cause any damage; they are designed specifically with such instruments as yours in mind.

Cheers,

Victor

girldingo

Apr-24-2008, 3:09pm

Victor,

Thank you so much for the clarity of your explanation regarding the distinction between the Lenzner strings.

Regards,
Ilene

Fliss

Apr-24-2008, 3:23pm

Ilene, congratulations on your purchase! Ceccherinis are really fine, lovely instruments and with the double top it should be loud too.

Fliss

trebleclef528

Apr-24-2008, 4:36pm

Only 10 hours to go and still no bids on <a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Raffaele-Calace-1969_W0QQitemZ250239879543QQihZ015QQcategoryZ10179 QQssPageNameZW
DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this fluted Calace</a> Seller with no history and registered for a couple of years... could be dodgy? I asked for shipping costs and got no reply.

mandocaster

Apr-24-2008, 11:23pm

I know I am an infrequent poster...

I love this thread, but it has gotten too unwieldy. I suggest breaking it up every 7-10 pages. Bowlbacks of note part II etc.

That way in the future if someone uses the search function to find info on a tasty Maurer on ebay like http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=007 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170211737576&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007)
they won't have to wade through 160 someodd pages. It is a tasty Maurer, though - made by Larson Bros, I think. If I had money right now I would buy it

Jim Garber

Apr-25-2008, 2:48pm

Over-the-top Ferrari (http://cgi.ebay.com/c1910-Ferrari-Neapolitan-mandolin_W0QQitemZ330229933982)

Jim Garber

Apr-25-2008, 3:43pm

Rather beat-looking Bowlback by Monzino (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=370046013154) in Uruguay. I wonder what the story is with all these interesting mandolins appearing in Uruguay.

Martin Jonas

Apr-25-2008, 5:32pm

Thank you! I'm very excitedly awaiting the arrival of my italian "friend" Umberto! Regarding the strings - I've been using Lenzner consorts on my Lyon & Healy C and I really like them. Should I get the consorts or the lighter gauge for the Umberto C?
Congratulations, Ilene! If you've followed this thread you'll know that I'm a big fan of Ceccherini. Like Bob, I have two of them (used to have three), and also like Bob I find that they have a tonality all of their own. You'll adore the shimmering trebles when you tremolo high on the E-string!

Gauge-wise, Lenzer Consort will be fine. I personally went for Lenzners with the plain A string, simply because the wound A is a bit darker and therefore loses some of that shimmering tone quality that I mentioned above. But, the wound A is easier to intonate properly with the original straight metal saddle of the Ceccherini.

Regarding intonation, I had to move the nut on one of mine by a couple of millimetres to correct the intonation -- maybe check out this (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=37018;hl=ceccherini+and +intonation) thread for details.

Have fun and let us know what you think!

Martin

Jim Garber

Apr-25-2008, 5:45pm

I love this thread, but it has gotten too unwieldy. I suggest breaking it up every 7-10 pages. Bowlbacks of note part II etc.
I understand your concern, but there is a time-limit on abandoned threads: we lost one that way already and this is one of our home threads, so I would say, better to leave well-enough alone.

Acquavella

Apr-25-2008, 10:14pm

mandocaster

Apr-25-2008, 10:44pm

Mandocaster,

May I suggest that you click on the page number instead on the thread itself. This will take you to the last entry. It would be good to not loose all the hard work everyone has logged thus far.
I may not be doing something right. When I do a search, e.g. Maurer,it just comes up with the thread with none of the pages specified.

Martin Jonas

Apr-26-2008, 1:53am

The search function on the Cafe is indeed a bit peculiar, and will only give you the entire thread. If you want to search within the thread, the best way to do that is to click "Print this topic" just above the first post on the page. This will open the entire thread in one giant page, and you can then search within in using your browser's search function. Loads pretty fast, too, as it leaves out all extraneous detail and just gives the text of the post.

Martin

mandocaster

Apr-26-2008, 2:00am

great suggestion

please disregard my suggestion to break up the thread

Schlegel

Apr-27-2008, 10:40am

Bob A

Apr-27-2008, 10:50am

They get free bank transfers.

Jim Garber

Apr-27-2008, 12:58pm

Anyone want a Puglisi, 1912? It appears somewhat worn with some bits of damage that need repair,but doesn't seem too bad off. Rather plain appearance, so it might not get very expensive, either. It's about $5 at the moment. Ebay item 170213676664. It's in Germany, so cash or bank transfer only. (Why don't Germans like paypal?)
Actually, the Puglisi mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170213676664) is about 5 euros which is closer to $9. It has 8 days to go anyway so will prob meet retail value for one in that condition. Of the non-Neapolitan mandolins of that era, Puglisi was prob the most respected. It looks decent, nothing special but prob a nice mandolin. It looks like the tuners are coming loose from the headstock which may or may not indicate some problem with the headstock.

Jim Garber

Apr-27-2008, 3:20pm

<a href="http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/120A-Fabricatore-Gennaro-Mandolino-italiano-Napoli_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28200QQihZ01
9QQitemZ290222624768" target="_blank">1810 mandolin by Gennaro Fabricatore</a> at a live eBay auction in Rome. There is also a <a href="http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/113A-Astuccio-per-mandolino-Italia-meta-del-XVII-sec_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28200QQihZ
019QQitemZ290222624811" target="_blank">mandolin case</a> that is estimated for the same price €2000 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I asked them for more photos. Will report back.

girldingo

Apr-27-2008, 7:48pm

So pretty! C'est belle.....come en italiano?

Ilene

guitharsis

Apr-28-2008, 5:54am

That is pretty. Congrats on your Ceccherini girldingo!
I love mine. It is presently strung with Calace strings, the preferred classical strings of Bernunzio's who did some work on it. It sounds great.

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 6:31am

I got some pics of the Fabricatore. It looks like it needs serious restoration work. I think there is some sinkage on the top and the rosette looks a little funky -- maybe some amateur replacement inlays? I am only interested academically and am not bidding BTW.

I will now post the pics I received.

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 6:33am

Side view

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 6:35am

Headstock and fretboard

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 6:37am

Side view of peghead

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 6:40am

Soundhole rosette close-up. Looks like the mastic is on its last legs and some of the pearl looks odd.

I wish I could see the label better. I looked at the pics of Eric's Fabricatore -- I wonder about the authenticity of this one.

Alex Timmerman

Apr-28-2008, 9:41am

Hello Jim,

This Mandolino Napolitano is (imho) NOT made by GENNARO Fabricatore.

The mandolino Napolitano shown here, and on auction via eBay, has a much earlier than 1810 appearance. Also this one has had many "repairs" by unskilled 'handymen' in its past. The originality of the sound table is very questionable as is the scratchplate. The inlay and bridge (the bridge is a nice and original example for these mandolin kinds) can have been easily taken out of/from the original table and placed in and on this one. #Unfortunately it is not very representative for the fine work of the Neapolitan Luthiers anymore. And certainly not for the work of Gennaro Fabricatore whose number of mandolins can be counted on one hand...

Best,

Alex

PS. here is a Gennaro Fabricatore 1806 label, similar to the one stuck in the Mandolino Napolitano,
found in one of his guitars.

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 9:55am

Thanks, Alex... I had a feeling that this one was seriously messed with, esp after seeing pics of Eric's gloriously restored mandolin.

brunello97

Apr-28-2008, 9:55am

Fascinating sleuthery, Alex. Can you elaborate? (Particularly on the state of the table, comparisons/contrasts etc. etc.)

thanks!

Mick

Martin Jonas

Apr-28-2008, 11:40am

1951 Calace (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350051356086), with long crack in top, one hour to go. Possibly a bit overpriced at its current high bid of 855 Euro -- how were the 1950s Calaces?

Today's bizarre corner here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320244260602): not sure whether this counts as a bowlback, a flatback or an electric -- definitely folk art, though. Made in 1946, when parts of all kind would have been extremely hard to come by in Germany, with a one-piece carved shallow bowl back/sides and an extremely improvised pickup.

Martin

BlueMountain

Apr-28-2008, 11:49am

This Washburn has one of the loveliest engraved fretboards and headstocks I've ever seen on a mandolin. Very graceful and well-conceived. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=025 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=380021939456&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=025)

BlueMountain

Apr-28-2008, 11:50am

Larger photo?

BlueMountain

Apr-28-2008, 11:52am

Headstock

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 1:04pm

Today's bizarre corner here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320244260602): not sure whether this counts as a bowlback, a flatback or an electric -- definitely folk art, though. Made in 1946, when parts of all kind would have been extremely hard to come by in Germany, with a one-piece carved shallow bowl back/sides and an extremely improvised pickup.
Franken-embergh-stein. So someone found an old Embergher that was a real wallhanger and snapped off the neck and bolted it onto an oblong salad bowl. I love it!!

brunello97

Apr-28-2008, 4:20pm

Wow. 'Pimp My Mando' for sure.

Mick

man dough nollij

Apr-28-2008, 4:33pm

I guess that answeres the eternal question: "What do you get when you breed a taterbug and a thermostat?".

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 6:10pm

brunello97

Apr-28-2008, 7:04pm

The model 80 Washburn appears to have the short-lived diagonal bowl bracing. I guess they didn't stick with it very long, but I like the way it looks. And is that burled veneer on the neck and headstock? If so, it isn't too often that one sees that on US mandolins. Or is that a painted metal tuner coverplate? The top appears to have a number of battle-scars, but all in all a very nice looking bowl.

Mick

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 7:33pm

My favorite is the waterfowl (heron?) at the end of the fretboard (this from another example).

Bob A

Apr-28-2008, 10:53pm

I seem to recall seeing a guitar neck with leafy, vinuous inlay on an American parlor guitar from around the turn of the century. It's been more than a decade, maybe two, so the mental image is not clear, but I was immediately reminded of it when I saw this fretboard.

More to the point, why has the instrument received 0 bids so far? SOMEone here must need it.

Jim Garber

Apr-28-2008, 11:01pm

I am pretty sure that L&H also made a banjo with similar inlays.

mandocaster

Apr-28-2008, 11:30pm

I seem to remember that L&H, Washburn, and American Conservatory all came out of the same factory, but I might be hallucinating again.

Jim Garber

Apr-29-2008, 6:53am

I seem to remember that L&H, Washburn, and American Conservatory all came out of the same factory, but I might be hallucinating again.
Sorry, Mitch... most folks here are aware of the connection of those brands. In any case, here is one similar in inlay style, fom the L&H factory.

http://www.billsbanjos.com/images/Curtis%20001.jpg

mandocaster

Apr-29-2008, 7:28am

Jim Garber

Apr-29-2008, 7:43am

Nothing sadder than yesterday's news
Nah... I live for yeste4rday's news -- you should see my studio -- old crumbling catalogs and sheet music...

Anyway...In actuallity, the banjo I had seen with those inlays was labelled Washburn anyway, but just to be sure I said L&H to cover myself. L&H was the parent company, Washburn, AmCon etc were the brands.

BlueMountain

Apr-30-2008, 11:37am

The ad says it needs a neck reset to get the action down. Not a D-I-Y endeavor for most of us. To me that banjo neck is cool, but crowded and not very effective. The mandolin is perfectly graceful. Thanks for the closeup, Jim.

mandocaster

Apr-30-2008, 10:29pm

This really floats my boat

<a href="http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/10-American-Mandolin-C-F-Martin-Company-Nazareth_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ28221QQihZ012Q
QitemZ220228119300QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW#la-image-3" target="_blank">http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/10-Amer....image-3</a>

mandocaster

Apr-30-2008, 11:09pm

For some reason I can't get the link to work. It's a Martin style 5
Ebay item # 220228119300

Martin Jonas

May-01-2008, 4:03am

Here (http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220228119300) is a better link to that Martin. There's another nice mando in that auction, too, this (http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=350052884105) Lyon & Healy. Surely the starting bid of $900 is far too low. On the other hand, this (http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220228119313) looks like no other Gibson I've ever seen and I wonder about its autheticity (but that's one for the Vintage Instruments forum, really).

Martin

Jim Garber

May-01-2008, 6:41am

On the other hand, this (http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220228119313) looks like no other Gibson I've ever seen and I wonder about its autheticity (but that's one for the Vintage Instruments forum, really).
It is one of those wide-body Gibsons from that period. They expanded the size of their archtops and figured they would do the same for the mandolin -- not too successful but it is a Gibson.

brunello97

May-01-2008, 9:47am

The L+H went for $1750 in the auction, which still must seem like a very attractive price for our Euro friends. #(~1100e) #I guess with the buyer's vigorish and shipping it adds up a bit. #It wasn't the cleanest looking A, and looked like a replacement tailpiece. #But I imagine we'll see the prices on these continue to escalate.

Wait a minute.....I'm confusing things here: there were three (3) L+H archtops on my radar screen, two apparently out of ebay 'live auctions'. #The B that Martin posted looks to be in much better shape than the A I was referring to above:

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws....42&rd=1 (http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120253549642&rd=1)

Just the same, this L+H A died on the vine with a starting price of $3900:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=016 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260229034075&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016)

Mick

vkioulaphides

May-01-2008, 10:10am

The Martin --beautiful as it is-- is buried beneath a heap of most unappetizing legalese; one is left with a bit of nostalgia for the Old Days at eBay, when the process was crude, but intuitive... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Somewhat akin, a German seller a while back, apparently TERRIFIED of potentially negative feedback, wrote the most remarkably negative description one could have ever imagined for the mandolin she was selling. She closed with a grumpy "If you don't like it, don't bid on it, I don't care to hear from people like you." In order, perhaps, Dr. Freud, with some help for childhood trauma?

Something in all this does not *ahem* tune in correctly with my millennially mercantile mentality...

Cheers,

Victor

Jim Garber

May-01-2008, 10:25am

Jim Garber

May-01-2008, 10:27am

Wait a minute.....I'm confusing things here: there were three (3) L+H archtops on my radar screen, two apparently out of ebay 'live auctions'. The B that Martin posted looks to be in much better shape than the A I was referring to above:

http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws....42&rd=1 (http://cgi.liveauctions.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=002&sspagename=STRK%3AMEDW%3AIT&viewitem=&item=120253549642&rd=1)
Do you know more about the condition of that L&H A? I only saw it after it was over but that is a very good price unless it is a basket case.

vkioulaphides

May-01-2008, 10:32am

Thanks, Jim, that explains it. I hope they are not also of the Skin-the-Cat-(er) sort of business.

brunello97

May-01-2008, 10:36am

I really do like Martin's take on the Michelangelo headstock. Maybe it is the rounded over edges? They use the same detail on their non-Mannerist versions as well. It is a small thing but gives a sense of fullness to the profile.

I've got a funny vibe viz the top on this one. Would love to have seen a proper side-on view. A beautiful instrument, nonetheless.

Mick

TomTyrrell

May-01-2008, 10:38am

The Martin --beautiful as it is-- is buried beneath a heap of most unappetizing legalese; one is left with a bit of nostalgia for the Old Days at eBay, when the process was crude, but intuitive... #???
The Skinner house is well known and respected. The legalese is basically standard boiler plate for an auction in Massachusetts. That's how long it takes a lawyer to say "As Is, Where Is"

You might be surprised how many people buy stuff at an auction, try to resell for a big profit and then think they should be able to get their money back from the auctioneer if that big profit doesn't happen.

vkioulaphides

May-01-2008, 10:53am

Makes sense. I dealt with countless contracts in my decade-plus in concert management --an entirely different business, of course-- and soon found out that, for every 3-page contract, there is a 33-page rider; therein contained (albeit implicitly) a chronicle of all the horror stories, what artists had suffered in previous engagements, etc. My own (former) employer's contracts got more and more stringent and strident as time went by... With that in mind, Skinner's prudence is certainly justified. Thank you for the "contextual information".

Martin Jonas

May-02-2008, 5:13am

I seem to remember that L&H, Washburn, and American Conservatory all came out of the same factory, but I might be hallucinating again.
Picking up on that topic, there's a relevant item in the classifieds (#28216): an original L&H/Washburn shipping crate. An interesting curiosity, but I can't quite see the collectability for at $500 asking price. You can get a fairly reasonable Washburn mandolin for that sort of money!

Also in the classifieds: a 1998 Knorr "La Ariosa" (#28248), for those keen on the modern German bowlback sound.

Martin

brunello97

May-02-2008, 6:42pm

As a corollary to the Style 5 Martin up for auction, here is what looks like a weatherworn Model 0 (?) with a dreamy price, Martin escalation notwithstanding.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=005 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=150242807545&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=005)

Mick

trebleclef528

May-03-2008, 9:21am

This #<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-Raffaele-Calace-1969_W0QQitemZ250243873022QQihZ015QQcategoryZ10179 QQssPageNameZW
DVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Fluted Calace</a> was supposedly sold by the seller on 25th April under item number 250239879543, same mandolin same details... dodgy or what, especially the sellers credit rating of -1

brunello97

May-03-2008, 11:07am

"Una truffa", so the (-1) states. A 'fraud' or a 'cheat' in the mother tongue. Not the preferred single description of your ebay commerce experience.

Mick

trebleclef528

May-03-2008, 6:49pm

Jim Garber

May-03-2008, 10:45pm

Here (http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/maingb.html) is a very nice restoration of a Mandore de Gaspare Vimercati, Milan c.1770 (click on the "restorations" tab on the web page)... also a nice Embergher restoration
Direct link to Vimercati restoration (http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/exprest/vimercati.html)

Direct link to Embergher restoration (http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/exprest/embergher.html)

That Embergher had a seriously warped top. Yikes!

Bob A

May-05-2008, 10:25am

Sounds like the French PC Police have joined forces with the Academie folks to cut the economic throats of the artisan classes. I understand that the next step is to ban the use of instruments that are not made by university grads.

Might be an opportunity to pick up a cheap Strad.

vkioulaphides

May-05-2008, 11:44am

I must say that the warped Embergher is THE most painful sight I have seen lately... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Jim Garber

May-05-2008, 5:32pm

I must say that the warped Embergher is THE most painful sight I have seen lately... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Nah... take a look at the old beauty discussed on this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=53493;).

brunello97

May-05-2008, 6:21pm

I must say that the warped Embergher is THE most painful sight I have seen lately... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Nah... take a look at the old beauty discussed on this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=27;t=53493;).
Well, it doesn't appear to have any top sinkage.....

Mick

Martin Jonas

May-06-2008, 6:13am

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270233652733) is yet another name to add to the long list of makers claiming to be pupils of Vinaccia: Gennaro & Gaetano Albertazzi.

Martin

brunello97

May-06-2008, 9:30am

I saw this, Martin, and tossed in a ringer on the Albertazzi, Fabulous names, maple bowl and to my eye nice MOP design around the soundhole. Seems pretty modest but a pleasant looking bowl nonetheless.

Mick

Jim Garber

May-06-2008, 9:37am

Fliss

May-11-2008, 10:22am

If anyone's looking for a De Meglio, I've spotted this one on ebay, still on a reasonable price with just under 4 hours to go. The condition looks pretty good, but there's no way to tell from the photos what the action is like.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws....&ih=022 (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=350057399967&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=022)

Fliss

brunello97

May-11-2008, 1:15pm

This is kind of grim. The Albertazzi went for ~103L. The seller told me shipping to the US would be ~100L. Yikes. This remains baffling (and frustrating) to me. Kind of like a updated version of the Stamp Act. I don't really like tea but feel ready for a little Tea Party of sorts.

Mick

Jim Garber

May-11-2008, 2:05pm

Mick:
I assume you are saying that you would have bid for the mandolin at that price if the shipping charges were lower? (I assume that you have not changed your eBay moniker and that you did not win this auction).

I have the same problem with getting my Embergher back from the UK. Luckily timing was right and my brother-in-law was going over to London on biz and was willing to take a little ride to the 'burbs to pick it up for me.

It is ridiculous how expensive it is to ship to the US from the UK.

brunello97

May-11-2008, 4:49pm

Jim, #I kind of liked the looks of the Albertazzi and had put in a ringer's bid and then asked the seller about the shipping costs. #I wrote back to him to confirm and/or ask for other options, but received no reply. # #I watched it go by. # We keep beating this horse here, but it never ceases to surprise me, mostly because one sees such a wide range of shipping costs from the UK, from the (sometimes) reasonable to the seemingly outrageous. # #I recently saw a listing from Belgium with shipping stated to the US for ~1/2 of what one sometimes sees from the UK. #A soft dollar doesn't explain it. # Maybe more competition over on the continent? #Still, how many planes go between NYC and London every day?

BTW next on my list is to upgrade the Italian bowl contribution to my arsenale. #Still a few months out (and a little herd thinning) on this now that 4/15 has come and gone. #But I am keeping my eye out. #I do like the looks of Vinaccia e dei suoi studenti. # I learned a bit from the recent Howe mandola flub.

Mick

Jim Garber

May-12-2008, 5:05am

THanks Scott for the reminder of the anniversary of Sr. Embergher's passing (http://www.mandolincafe.com/glossary/glossary_53.shtml), the creator of many Bowlbacks of Note.

Jim Garber

May-15-2008, 3:45pm

BlueMountain

May-15-2008, 6:11pm

Luigi Dorigo? 1891?
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....atching (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130221422772&_trksid=p3907.m32&_trkparms=tab%3DWatching)

Very interesting string trees pulling up from under the top to hold down the strings. Lots of nice things about this mandolin.

vkioulaphides

May-15-2008, 7:54pm

Other than the painful fact that the bridge is SCREWED onto the top. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

brunello97

May-15-2008, 9:16pm

Combining two of my favorite things: chocolate and mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320252438556). Too bad the price is way beyond my passion -- I could almost buy a nice bowlback for that money. I think this one has a fluted back tho.
What a great alternative Easter basket confection. Note the dimension: 8" x 3"! Somewhere, some pastry shop might still be selling these. A pity about the price though, as this could certainly be put back into production. A ready market, no doubt, here at the MC.

Mick

Jim Garber

May-15-2008, 9:23pm

Hey Mick:
Want to go into the mando-confectionery biz? Maybe we could buy this mould and start something. Now we need to also find a Loar mould as well to make it worthwhile.

Wait! I found a cheaper one:
http://images.goantiques.com/dbimages/KVC7579/KVC7579STK5213.jpg

Well still not cheap enough.

Neil Gladd

May-16-2008, 5:56am

I already have TWO mandolin chocolate molds (and a mandolin ice cream mold from the 19th century). I also bought a book on working with chocolate and have made several attempts, but the neck always breaks off when taking it out of the mold. Molding chocolate is definately an art! I'll take some pictures when I get home tonight.

Jim Garber

May-16-2008, 6:18am

Maybe you need some of that fine Belgian chocolate (Ralf?) -- I hear that it makes stronger necks...

or maybe you need to reinforce it with CF (chocolate fiber).

TomTyrrell

May-16-2008, 6:31am

Does anyone happen to know what page of this thread this Bohmann (http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpix/29037/29037.html) was discussed? Or maybe about when?

brunello97

May-16-2008, 6:51am

Jim Garber

May-16-2008, 7:39am

Does anyone happen to know what page of this thread this Bohmann (http://www.gryphonstrings.com/instpix/29037/29037.html) was discussed? Or maybe about when?
I did a quick search on the print version and I see that some frequent poster noted it on 8/7/2005. I think it was originally on eBay before it ended up at Gryphon.

Neil Gladd

May-18-2008, 8:33pm

Neil, if you get a chance to post a few pictures of these molds, I would love to see them. Thanks!
Better late than never. I bought the first (back left) at a local antique show. I was buying my first mandobabe postcards from one dealer and she was helping me look. Suddenly she said, "Hey, I have a mandolin chocolate mold!", and produced it from a box under the table. I gave her my card in case anything else turned up, and she called me a few days later to say that she also had a mandolin ice cream mold (front. It seems to be dated 1888.) The last mold (right back) is from a Belgian eBay dealer. When I won it I told her that now I needed some Belgian chocolate to put in it, and she put a piece in the package!

Neil Gladd

May-18-2008, 8:36pm

The inside view. Sorry for the not great photos, but my digital camera is ALSO an antique (1995).

Woody Turner

May-18-2008, 10:13pm

Slight image sharpening.

Martin Jonas

May-19-2008, 10:26am

Just a quick cross-link to the picture I've posted over in the Visual Arts (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=12;t=36323;st=100) thread, found on a croissant bag on my holiday in the South of France last week.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-12-98306-Croissants.jpg

Martin

Martin Jonas

May-20-2008, 8:16am

I'm not sure I'll ever understand Ebay. This (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250248126921) Loveri has already attracted five bids with more than four days to go, the highest at 77.10 Pounds ($155), never mind the slight problem that its neck is snapped clean off! I quite like this style of Loveri, but considering that we recently had a Ceccherini in decent(-ish) condition going for about the same, something isn't right here.

Martin

Jim Garber

May-20-2008, 8:42am

My guess is that it is going to Vietnam via Taiwan.

Fliss

May-20-2008, 1:08pm

To go with the chocolate and croissants, how about some cherry wine? A friend brought this back for me from a holiday in Croatia.

Fliss

guitharsis

May-21-2008, 5:53am

Just curious. How were the vintage Italian bowlbacks constructed i.e. deMeglio, Stridente, Puglisi, Ceccherini, Embergher, Calace, Vinaccia?

Bob A

May-21-2008, 12:31pm

Heat wood, metal, glue until melted.
Pour into mold, remove when cool.

brunello97

May-21-2008, 1:04pm

Just curious. #How were the vintage Italian bowlbacks constructed i.e. deMeglio, Stridente, Puglisi, Ceccherini, Embergher, Calace, Vinaccia?
Sean Chase (of Eastman mandolins) posted this video from a visit to their factory which shows a Chinese fella working on a bowlback. #He is holding the formwork on his lap, whereas I've seen some old photos of Italian shops where the bowl-mo(u)lds are fastened to the work-stations/benches.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4CBG2gt2byA

Mick

guitharsis

May-21-2008, 3:32pm

Thanks. John Bernunzio http://www.bernunzio.com was asking the question about my Stridente when I brought it in for a string change. Just wondering if they were made in shops by others or if the individuals made them themselves. The vast amount of deMeglios would indicate small shops at least. Don't know about the others.

Jim Garber

May-21-2008, 10:36pm

I think that all the ones you mentioned were at the very least small shops, not individual luthiers. In fact I believe that even the violin makers like Stradivari worked that way with assistants/students helping out in the production. I thinkl most successful luthiers had a few people working for him/her.

There is a Japanese site (http://homepage1.nifty.com/camellia/Calace1.htm) with photos of the current Calace workshop. There is also a second page (http://homepage1.nifty.com/camellia/Calace2.htm).

Vinaccia certainly must have had a similar situation esp consideringf how many makers have mentioned that they were students thereof on their labels.

Jim

guitharsis

May-22-2008, 5:29am

Thanks, Jim. Interesting stuff. The Eastman video was great too, Mick. John Bernunzio did have a chance to play some bowlbacks when he was at the Eastman factory in China. He was very impressed with them.

brunello97

May-22-2008, 8:33am

Jim, I hadn't seen those pictures of the Calace shop before. Those are pretty great. (The neck/headstock glue + clamp joint!)

Lots of details to pour over, but I couldn't help but notice the photo with both a devotional image of JC right next to a slew of girly pinups. (Kind of like my barber: pictures of the pope right next to the gentlemanly magazine section.)

The old bowl mo(u)lds/forms appear to have seen a lot of good use. Looks like those folks had a great visit there.

Mick

Neil Gladd

May-22-2008, 11:28am

Just curious. How were the vintage Italian bowlbacks constructed i.e. deMeglio, Stridente, Puglisi, Ceccherini, Embergher, Calace, Vinaccia?
Not vintage, Italian, or traditional, but here (http://www.neilgladd.com/Seiffert.html) are my pictures of Seiffert's shop again.

Jim Garber

May-22-2008, 11:36am

The thing that gets me about constructing a bowled instrument is the geometry needed to go from flat to bowled. It looks like the Seiffert shop uses completely symmetrical ribs whereas the Italian makers have to have a different patterns for their ribs in order to achieve that shape of the bowl, narrowing toward the neck join.

I guess it is the same wonder I feel when I see a truly expertly made southwestern pot with a perfectly executed geometric pattern.

guitharsis

May-23-2008, 6:00am

Thanks! The Seiffert pics were impressive.

Like Jim, I'm filled with wonder when see pics and videos of the makers and their methods.

Martin Jonas

May-27-2008, 6:27am

Here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150251669025) is another one of those old-style French (we think) bowls constructed for low tension mixed stringing. This one has been converted to geared tuners from the original friction tuners at some stage (you can see the plugged holes for the friction tuners in the headstock photo), and I'd be worried about structural damage cause by use of inappropriate steel strings.

Martin

Jim Garber

May-27-2008, 6:32am

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Ancienne-MANDOLINE-FRATRES-CALACE-NEAPOLI-datee-1901_W0QQitemZ270239673410QQihZ017QQcatego

ryZ104485QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD4VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_t rksidZp1638Q2em124" target="_blank">1901 Maple-bowled Calace</a>.

Jim Garber

May-27-2008, 6:45am

My friend in Roma pointed me to this extensive listing of Italian luthiers (http://www.federmandolino.it/liutai.htm) on the FMI site.

Bob A

May-27-2008, 10:23am

For those intrepid traveller seeking Neapolitqan treasures, be advised that the city of Napoli has been in the midst of a garbage strike since January, with heaps of rotting trash sitting in piles thruout the city. Might be worth avoiding until the situation is resolved.

(I understand that the local organs of Organised Crime are deeply involved in the situation. Apparently they control the trash industry and have been importing toxic waste from all over Italy and burying it wherever they please; it has proven less than pleasing to the citizenry, who understandably object to their home;and being turned into a toxic waste dump. Perhaps more than anyone wants to know about this, but it seems to me a warning to travellers might be in order).

vkioulaphides

May-27-2008, 11:58am

Italian composer/friend Davide Zannoni --whose music I recommend warmly!-- reminded me of the perennial saying among his countrymen: to rule Italy is not impossible; only pointless. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Commander-in-chief Berlusconi, recently commencing his third term, is best known for shortening statutes of limitation, thereby getting a step ahead of prosecutors dogging him since his LAST term...

But, oh, the trash-mongers of Napoli, he'll show THEM who's the boss. HA!

Martin Jonas

Jun-02-2008, 9:43am

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=130226929166) is yet another Ceccherini on Ebay UK. Looks to be in good condition. Very similar to mine. The date of 1891 is spurious, of course -- the seller has misread the reference to the 1881 exhibition on the label and has added an arbitrary 10 years to it.

Martin

vkioulaphides

Jun-02-2008, 2:18pm

With the candid disclaimer that I am a TOTAL ignoramus of historical mandolins, and their various and sundry reincarnations, I point <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MUSEUM-Italian-Lion-Head-Mandolin-by-Rocca-Enrico-1896_W0QQitemZ370056598738QQihZ024QQcate
goryZ359QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem?" target="_blank">this</a> out for the better informed to judge.

Again, this is NOT a recommendation or endorsement, but simply a heads up. Just 4 hours to go, and VERY little money on the table so far...

Bob A

Jun-02-2008, 10:21pm

Pretty good deal for $305, even with a 50% premium for shipping. I was sore tempted, but vestiges of sanity along with fiscal trainwreck from prior excesses permitted me to pass.

Martin Jonas

Jun-03-2008, 3:53am

No deal on that Brescian: the reserve wasn't reached. I would like that a lot, but am reluctant to deal with shipping and possible customs snare-ups from Uruguay -- besides, who knows how high he put that reserve.

Martin

trebleclef528

Jun-03-2008, 6:01am

Brescian - The reserve was $950 and shipping to the UK was quoted at $174

vkioulaphides

Jun-03-2008, 8:37am

Brescian, eh? So... THAT's what it was! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Oh, well... I was short a few lire Bresciane, anyway. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

etbarbaric

Jun-03-2008, 10:11am

Interestingly, this mandolin seems to have once had more pegs than it does now. #An upper peg hole has definitely been filled in...

Eric

Arto

Jun-03-2008, 11:25am

It should have - I don´t think 3-string mandolins exist. If it originally had 4 pegs, it would be a Brescian (same as Cremonese?).

Martin Jonas

Jun-03-2008, 11:31am

Arto: it has only three pegs at the moment, but there is an empty hole between the bottom peg and the nut, plus the filled-in upper peg hole between the top peg and the carved head mentioned by Eric. So, either a five-string originally, or the peg hole from the top was moved to the bottom.

Martin

etbarbaric

Jun-03-2008, 11:47am

Hi Arto,

Sorry for not being clearer. It seems this one originally had at least one additional peg in addition to the four that it could currently hold (one is missing). I see:
- Four peg holes (three with pegs)
- One filled in peg hole up higher on the peghead

The upper (filled-in) peg hole almost certainly held a peg at some point, as the peghead is cracked at that point as well. Unfortunately the photos don't show the whole peghead or bridge holes. It would be interesting to see the lower back of the peghead as well.

It does look like a Brescian mandolin in its current incarnation, but I wonder if the maker (or a later repairer) swiped the lovely carved peghead from another instrument... one that originally had more pegs. The other possibility would be a converted Lombardian mandolin... but from the available photos, I don't see room for a sixth peg.

Best,

Eric

vkioulaphides

Jun-03-2008, 11:49am

By way of (somewhat) related anecdote: for most candidates, the arguably most TERRIFYING moment of a doctorate in music are the much dreaded oral exams, where one may be asked ANYthing. It's a bit like standing naked before a group of fully-clothed others: they have written up the questions, looked up the answers in detail, you don't have ANY idea of what on earth they might ask.

Committee members, in turn, can be either perfectly reasonable, or downright asinine. A member of the *ahem* latter persuasion, knowing that I am a performer (on a modern instrument) and composer (of obviously modern music, and thus presumed ignorant of early music, period instruments, and the like) hurled at me the question, "WHEN was the three-string violin standardized?"

"Why, Sir", I replied without missing a beat, "CERTAINLY before the four-string one!" The other committee members burst out in earth-shaking laughter, the gentleman who had asked the question smirked with visible dismay; the chairman moved right along to the next question --about Scarlatti's keyboard Sonatas, thank goodness!-- and I moved right along with answering that one fully and correctly.

In other words, I can proudly claim that I have a fully accredited, highest academic degree in... ignorance! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Bob A

Jun-03-2008, 2:24pm

Now, Victor, the academic method is to learn more and more about less and less, until finally one knows all there is to know about nothing at all. At that point, having eaten your tail and continued northward until you disappear with a pop into the ineffable, you reach that most rarified state of all . . .tenure.

Arto

Jun-03-2008, 2:53pm

"Now, Victor, the academic method is to learn more and more about less and less, until finally one knows all there is to know about nothing at all."

Hey thanks Bob! I never understood that the Western academic study aims at the same result than Zen Buddhism: The Mind that is Empty and Wonderful.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Arto

vkioulaphides

Jun-03-2008, 2:54pm

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Realization of the above steered me elsewhere, Bob, as you know. Fortunately, I escaped the Ultimate Ignominy, that attached to the status of academic COMPOSER! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Back to whatEVER-number-of-strings mandolins.

"The Mind that is Empty and Wonderful."

Arto... *ahem*... I believe that Bob's proctological metaphor held less wonder than you, perhaps, ascribe to it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

vkioulaphides

Jun-05-2008, 8:24am

Since, out of sheer curiosity, I had placed the Brescian on my Watch List at eBay, I just received notice that it has been relisted, magnanimously, for a pittance of $3,500 in the Buy It Now option. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Economic theory in reverse: if you fail to sell something with a reserve of $950, attracting instead $350-or-so worth of buyer interest, raise the ceiling to $3,500; this way, you will surely sell at a satisfactory price. Hmmm... perhaps this works in Uruguay.

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. From the buyer's standpoint, of course, this may not be a bad thing altogether: if there is now NO reserve at all, one of the Cafe's denizens may wish to snap this up for, oh... $400-500. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Bob A

Jun-05-2008, 9:52am

I've seen this sort of marketing ploy work, amazingly enough. I suppose the idea is that if you undervalue something, it'll be ignored as junk, but if you put a hefty tag on it, it will seem more desireable.

Still, I was never able to tell whether the object in question was a 4-string with bushed pegholes or a 6 string without enough room for the 6th peg; photos were too vague. And I'm having little luck with current instruments out for repair. So fortunately I'm forced to ignore this one.

Anyway, the concept of logic in economic theory has been pretty much ruled out, as I understand it. Apparently someone got a Nobel for suggesting that you can't go broke by underestimating the stupidity of the purchasing class. Who knew?

vkioulaphides

Jun-05-2008, 10:19am

You are right, as usual, Bob. Come to think of it a bit better, I'm going to scare up that 3 1/2 grand presto, prestissimo, and mail the check to Uruguay A.S.A.P. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Let us see... I am, of course, always an advocate for the buyers among mando-friends, and often pour scorn (perhaps unjustified) on many a seller's ploy. I disclaim any impartiality in this matter. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

etbarbaric

Jun-05-2008, 12:09pm

Hi guys,

How about a link to the relisting? I have to try to out-bid Victor... now that we know its *really* worth $3,500.... at least!!!

(watch for dripping sarcasm...)

Thanks,

Eric

ps - I'm with you Bob... the peghead is thus far a bit of a mystery...

vkioulaphides

Jun-05-2008, 1:04pm

Believe it or not... too late! It was just snapped up, by Best Offer, at $750.

By way of a candid, economic post mortem: this proves both Bob AND myself right http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif The instrument DID sell, so Bob's ploy-analysis came true; it sold BELOW the previous reserve, and nowhere near the Buy It Now price, so my skepticism had some truth, too.

EVERYbody's right! I hope the buyer is also right to have bought this...

Cheers,

Victor

dave17120

Jun-06-2008, 4:37pm

There is an interesting item <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/10-STRING-NEOPOLITAN-MANDOLIN-ANGARA-D-ISANTO-1896_W0QQitemZ270241814149QQihZ017QQcategory

Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">here</a>
10 strings..... Ive not seen that combination before. Courses of 3-3-2-2, sort of like a half mandriola. Dave

Martin Jonas

Jun-06-2008, 6:20pm

We've discussed that very instrument before -- the seller has tried for a while to find a bidder and now he has finally succeeded. I used to own a similar 10-string, same string configuration (3-3-2-2), but built by Umberto Ceccherini. Nice instrument, but I sold it as I already had too many Ceccherini. I changed the Ceccherini to a conventional 8-string -- didn't see any benefit in the triple courses. The interesting thing is that both that Ceccherini and the Ebay Angara & d'Isanto have distributor labels on the back of the headstock, and both of them are music shops in Newcastle-upon-Tyne (but not the same shop). Why Newcastle? Who knows. Maybe there was a music teacher there who promoted this strange stringing system, and the dealers in town commissioned some specially from Italy.

Martin

Martin Jonas

Jun-12-2008, 5:39am

US-made bowlbacks are rare in the UK, so this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250258204094) fairly plain American Conservatory may be of interest. Condition looks quite good, so the Buy-It-Now looks fairly reasonable.

Martin

brunello97

Jun-12-2008, 6:10pm

I picked up a American Conservatory within an assortment of odds and ends bowlbacks to fiddle some off-hour repairs with over the summer. MIne is a wee notch up from this one, if stave count is any indication, but all the AC instruments I've seen represent the nice wood selection the company should be noted for. #I think they were quite decent instruments, and the stiffer mahogany should give those unfamiliar with L+H #a little more confidence viz neck alignment if you are comping relative to the many lower end Italian bowls on UK ebay. #

Odd thing, though, mine arrived with the tuners also in the 'inverted' position with similar evidence of previous tuner position holes. #

Mick

brunello97

Jun-14-2008, 1:24pm

Here is a modest Martin, at a less than modest starting bid. Despite the fuzzy photographs, it appears to be in fairly decent shape. I'd be surprised if it brought this kind of money, but with recent Martin pricing, it might eventually get near there. Hard to see folks diving in at this though.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....&ih=007 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=170229176184&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=007)

Mick

Jim Garber

Jun-15-2008, 10:41am

I dunno, Mick. I think that that is a reasonable price for that mandolin, assuming that it is in excellent condition as the seller says. If it needs nothing, you have a quality mandolin for a good price. I think the seller merely put his asking price as the starting price as opposed to the secret reserve. Sort of refreshing that way as opposed to the hocus-pocus. Of course, I would have preferred a BIN instead at that price. Not that I am looking for such a thing, it could be a nice bowlback.

brunello97

Jun-15-2008, 11:01am

You may be on target handicapping the price, Jim, you usually are. The rapid Martin escalation still comes as a surprise. But you are right, they are a good investment, and folks have caught on. Not that my opinion should mean anything to a seller, but the reason I don't like the high BiN prices is that it often leads to folks waiting around until the last minute and then firing off a bunch of Sniper bids. It all goes down in a few microseconds. This mando would certainly bid well up into the $4C range. I'll send the seller a note about posting a side view, to confirm the neck condition and maybe recommend the MC classifieds.

Mick

Jim Garber

Jun-15-2008, 8:05pm

I checked my books and this looks like a nice 1912 Style 0. If you want to go by those things, the VG Price Guide 2008 lists that in exc as $775-900.

brunello97

Jun-15-2008, 9:45pm

I checked my books and this looks like a nice 1912 Style 0. If you want to go by those things, the VG Price Guide 2008 lists that in exc as $775-900.
Wow. #That kind of money is kind of in orbit. #Those must be in the same league as the tax accessors in Travis Co., TX #who are appraising my house....If it gets anywhere near there I will be amazed--and reconsider putting mine on the block.

Mick

brunello97

Jun-15-2008, 10:32pm

If the above Martin 0 is fairly in the $800 here is a thoroughly decorated apparently no label (US?) bowl going for a reasonable price on the bay. #

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE-HANDMADE-MANDOLIN_W0QQitemZ320261660406QQihZ011QQcategoryZ3 59QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrd

Z1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/VINTAGE....iewItem</a>

I wish there were more views of what appears to be a very nice maple bowl. #

And here a couple #'modest' Embergher (orchestra models?) one selling out of CA:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Luigi-Embergher-1899-Mandolin-w-case_W0QQitemZ180253232354QQihZ008QQcategoryZ10179 QQssPage

NameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Luigi-E....iewItem</a>

with a label a bit different from the two circle ones I have seen previously.

This one an extremely modest version if the ad is to be believed:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/lugi-embergher-8-string-mandolin-instrument-potto-bug_W0QQitemZ350069037199QQihZ022QQcateg
oryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/lugi-em....iewItem</a>

Billed as a 'potto-bug'. There does look like a LE label peeking out there. #If so, seems remarkably priced at this late stage of the bidding.

Mick

Jim Garber

Jun-16-2008, 5:15am

This one an extremely modest version if the ad is to be believed
Yeah, I was the first bidder and have a modest planned bid but I have a feeling that I will be sniped at the end. I shouldn't anyway, but it did look enticing.

Interesting that I have written the seller twice about details on this one and have gotten no reply. Maybe that is why no one is bidding much... then again I am waiting for the snipe.

Eugene

Jun-16-2008, 8:56am

Brescian, eh? So... THAT's what it was! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Oh, well... I was short a few lire Bresciane, anyway. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Of this vintage, the more appropriate modifier would be Toscano.

Eugene

Jun-16-2008, 9:01am

brunello97

Jun-16-2008, 9:43am

I put a bid in on the Kasermann, but you are right, that rotated neck looks might bad. I would like to bring it into my la-BOR-atory to see if I can figure out some cure.

Given the fact that I've lost the first 6 weeks of this summer due to a herniated disk in my own neck, I have a special incentive to have a go at this one! Maybe a specially designed traction device..........

Mick

Jim Garber

Jun-16-2008, 11:28am

Here are a few that might be of interest:
http://www.brokenbowls.com

Unfortunately, those in which I have most interest--the Kasermann and the German-made, hybrid-Calace-x-Embergher knock off--need just more help than I'd be willing to give them.
I am still trying to clarify with Chris how the bidding works. I guess it is blind bidding -- you don't know if you won until you do -- and you bid what you will pay. In other words, you can't bid your max unless that is what you are willing to pay. If you bid $200 and the next lowest is 25 you still pay $200. Different way of thinking of it. So far the ones mentioned were the most interesting but they do need serious work.

Speaking of broken bowls, it looks like that Embergher B is going to end up retail price in spite of repair issues. It is already over $1500 with 5 hours to go. Good luck to anyone here bidding. My guess is it is going back to Europe or to Japan and will end up $1800-2000.

vkioulaphides

Jun-16-2008, 11:56am

"...it looks like that Embergher B is going to end up retail price in spite of repair issues."

If I am allowed a brief lapse into cruelty, or at least brutal honesty, the phrase spare parts comes to mind. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif #

Absurd, really... Labor-costs being what they are, all the king's horses and all the king's men couldn't put THIS Humpty-Dumpty together again for less than a grand or more-- at which point of post-repair, implicit mark-up it is nonsensical to own this thing to begin with. But perhaps the Greater Fool Theory holds true here, too, whereby the buyer of an overpriced wreckage hopes to re-sell it, for yet far more than he paid (PLUS repair costs incurred in the meanwhile, of course), to the next... *ahem*... hopeful. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Or, of course, there is the chance that at the end he might remain the unenviable, and altogether pathetic Last Fool. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Cheers,

Victor

Jim Garber

Jun-16-2008, 1:13pm

Then again, yesterday's fool can be today's genius. I paid top dollar at the time for quite a few instruments but have seen them go up in price considerably. I once spent $800 for a ukulele (!) which is now worth about $10,000.

Jim Garber

Jun-16-2008, 1:23pm

I finally heard from the seller. For anyone who is considering bidding, take a look at this one. Phew... maybe one for Dave but at 1/10 the current price. I saw the back cracks which were not so bad but this opening is a little scary, esp at that price.

vkioulaphides

Jun-16-2008, 2:24pm

"Then again, yesterday's fool can be today's genius."

Of course, Jim. Can IS the operative term. But the odds, of course, favor the foolish outcome, not the brilliant one. Not everyone has your acumen or judgment, Jim...

Cheers,

Victor

Bob A

Jun-17-2008, 7:52pm

While I've been seduced time and again by the Greater Fool Rule, I always seem to forget that the trick is FINDING the greater fool.

Jim Garber

Jun-17-2008, 10:03pm

here is a thoroughly decorated apparently no label (US?) bowl going for a reasonable price on the bay.

This one might be a Raphael Ciani work. The cherubic look very much like his or of Angelo Mannello. Looks like it got a respectable over $500 bid as well.

here is a detail for the history.

Jim Garber

Jun-17-2008, 10:07pm

Here is a labelled Ciani/Galliano for comparison.

brunello97

Jun-17-2008, 11:31pm

I've seen that cherubini strike plate on a higher end Bruno bowlback that also looked like it might have come out of a NY area shop such as Ciani's. If this one is a Ciani, my respect for his work goes up up a notch even higher. I think the 'chain' inlay pattern is very pretty and that maple bowl looked very very nice from the limited photos shown. Hopefully some more pictures might turn up here. The wear on the top above the soundhole seemed kind of odd looking to me. Makes me wonder if it was strung lefty for awhile in its life. A real pretty mandolin.

Mick

man dough nollij

Jun-17-2008, 11:42pm

Interesting that there's a Masonic Square and Compass symbol on the label.

Jim Garber

Jun-18-2008, 6:30am

wear on the top above the soundhole seemed kind of odd looking to me. Makes me wonder if it was strung lefty for awhile in its life.
I have a feeling that it was played by someone who mostly used it for strummed chordal accompaniment. There is wear on both sides with the left side slightly higher meaning, if I am correct, that the player held it more in an upright stance (neck high). Same wear on the varnish over the pickguard on the treble side. Just my guess.

I just noticed that the mandolin was bought by Flip It Fast which means we will likely see it on eBay again with better pics and probably higher price. I didn't know he was interested in bowlbacks.

vkioulaphides

Jun-18-2008, 7:50am

[QUOTE]"Interesting that there's a Masonic Square and Compass symbol on the label."

Well... think Garibaldi, think Mazzini, Risorgimento, and all that. I don't know (and couldn't possibly) for a fact regarding this particular luthier, but Italian Freemasonry has been around at least since the Middle Ages, and still apparently thrives in Italian-language Lodges around the world, including of course New York, but also Argentina, Brazil, and elsewhere. A luthier, i.e. by definition a builder (of instruments), may well have been a member of some craft-specific Lodge. Lots and lots of Italian groups and institutions, Carbonari and the like, had some such affiliations. All this by way of a guess, of course...

Cheers,

Victor

brunello97

Jun-18-2008, 1:23pm

Ah, Victor, now you are swinging on Foucault's Pendulum. Freemasons, luthiery and mandolins. I can hear the Eco of a lot of old and secret knowledge.....

Mick

vkioulaphides

Jun-18-2008, 2:08pm

Well, Mick, I'm ALWAYS on board for a curious digression. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif And chance has taken me to many strange and curious things around the world: I have worked for New York's third-oldest incorporated entity (chartered in 1697), complete with cryptographic plaques from Dutch/English colonial times; the man who restored my bass (and firebranded HIS Fraternal emblem on the bridge) was an Italian-American muratore from Detroit; and so on, and so forth.

But I digress-- this time TOO far, even by my own *ahem* generous standards. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Back to mandolin-talk!

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. For those interested in finding out more on the above, please see this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbonari) link; bearing in mind the "Neapolitan Connection", vide Mazzini, the resistance to the French, the complex interregno and, amidst all that, the MANDOLIN, it is indeed fascinating to speculate.

Bob A

Jun-18-2008, 3:26pm

We Await Silent Tristero's Empire.

Anyway, Pynchon does.

vkioulaphides

Jun-18-2008, 3:41pm

Rather more humbly, I await global tightening of money to blow a cooling breeze on MANDOLIN PRICES! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif

Remember: the Fraternal Order of the Bowl is not to be messed with, or infuriated with irrational pricing on eBay! Ye sellers of toothpicks-in-form-of-a-mandolin, beware...

With fraternal warnings,

Master Curmudgeon V.K.

Jim Garber

Jun-18-2008, 3:51pm

I agree with your assessment, MCVK! However, I have long realized that eBay is too closely watched to get any bargains any more with the exceptions of some misspellings and the placing of mandolins in the ladies underwear departments. Even then those stray Emberghers (or Hembuglers) get tracked down one way or the other. And who has time for the flea markets? besides I should be selling, not buying.

Martin Jonas

Jun-18-2008, 4:53pm

But of course there is a most, err, direct connection between the Carbonari and the mandolin, going something like this:

Carbonari --> Spaghetti Carbonara --> Pizza Margherita --> Queen Margherita of Savoy

The Pizza Margherita was invented by Raffaele Esposito and named after the queen, who was a prominent supporter of mandolin music as well as a player (a Vinaccia mandolin made for her is in the Victoria & Albert Museum in London). I have also seen a mandolin made by Raffaele Esposito. I suspect that this was not actually made by a moonlighting pizza baker, but who knows...

Martin
(Getting mentally ready for the Germany-Portugal quarterfinal tomorrow.)

vkioulaphides

Jun-18-2008, 5:07pm

Interesting... Carlo Aonzo once told us (at his NY Workshop) that the pizza was named, as you say, after the queen; the connection he suggested was that this particular pizza topping (white provolone, tomato, and basil) reflected the revolutionaries' tricolore.

In introducing mandolin events, I have often suggested that we, latter-day-mandolinists, are also revolutionaries-- in a limited sense, of course: we try to steer away from the stifling omnipresence of the mass media, and towards the rather quaintly old-fashioned, but MOST rewarding practice of music-making among friends.

Or perhaps the connection is that we are remunerated just about as handsomely as the sooty, grimy coal-miners of yore... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Schlegel

Jun-18-2008, 8:32pm

Notable, I think, only in order to define "wishful thinking". Seller "thinks" it is a Martin.
http://home.roadrunner.com/~audion/images/m1.jpg

Now for actual interest: a Martello for auction

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f387/philparks/Ebay%20photos/IMG_7592.jpg

Jim Garber

Jun-18-2008, 9:06pm

Any chance of a link to that Martello auction, even if it is over?

Dave Caulkins

Jun-18-2008, 9:49pm

The link for the Martello:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Superb-19th-C-Neapolitan-Bowl-Back-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ220247848235QQihZ012QQcategoryZ1 0179Q
QssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Martello Auction</a>

Definitely a beauty...

Dave

brunello97

Jun-19-2008, 12:03am

Thanks for the Martello link, Dave. Pretty inlay work. I particularly like the flowers on the headstock. Is it the photo angle or does it seem to have a curious bowl profile--a rather steep transition from bowl to neck. Very interesting.

Mick

Martin Jonas

Jun-19-2008, 4:26am

I have a Ferrari with the same steep transition from bowl to neck. It's quite intricate workmanship on the Martello, but I've never come across that maker, and it's uncertain whether the tone matches the decoration. My Ferrari, for one, has a pretty clangy tone (my mother uses it as a beater when travelling).

Martin

Neil Gladd

Jun-19-2008, 5:50am

Freemasons, luthiery and mandolins. I can hear the Eco of a lot of old and secret knowledge.....
I can see a future Nicholas Cage movie, Corelli's National Mandolin Treasure, in which he follows a series of clues that lead to a huge vault of mint condition vintage mandolins...

Martin Jonas

Jun-19-2008, 6:29am

Jim Garber

Jun-19-2008, 6:47am

Martello seems to lean toward the heavy ornamentation. Here are a couple more for comparison. All different.

Jim Garber

Jun-19-2008, 6:48am

Here is another.

Jim Garber

Jun-19-2008, 6:57am

I don't normally browse Ebay US, but by chance I passed upon this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160251085916) auction for a Brandt bowlback, with front-mounted tuners on a violin-styled scroll headstock. As a handy selling tool, the seller has put a nice Youtube video of him playing the mandolin in the auction, so at least one can be confident that it is actually playable and has a pretty decent tone.

Martin
Here's another simultaneous <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Antique-Brandt-Bowlback-Bowl-Back-Mandolin-NR_W0QQitemZ140242396715QQcmdZViewItem?has

h=item140242396715&_trkparms=72%3A635%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14" target="_blank">Brandt mandolin</a> from the collection of Pat Lawson as sold by Chris Nolan of brokenbowls.com. According to Chris this one probably needs a neck reset.

Jim Garber

Jun-19-2008, 7:49am

Along with the other ornate mandolins above, this Caponetto-Grassi mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260250742805&indexURL=0#ebayphotohosting) from Sicily. I wonder if this shop is related to the guitar maker pictured here (http://www.fetishguitars.com/html/italiane/sicilia/caponnetto2.html).

Jonathan

Jun-19-2008, 9:53am

Hello all - thought you might like to know about a site that is auctioning off a large collection of sundry bowlbacks to support a local hospice. #The seller's name is Chris Logan, and the site is at #www.brokenbowls.com (http://www.brokenbowls.com)

These look to be no-name bowls in various states of repair, but perhaps some of the savvy bowlhounds (did I just invent that word?) in this forum will be able to pick out whatever diamonds may be among the offerings.
Happy hunting!

Jonathan Jensen

Jim Garber

Jun-19-2008, 10:22am

Hello all - thought you might like to know about a site that is auctioning off a large collection of sundry bowlbacks to support a local hospice. The seller's name is Chris Logan, and the site is at www.brokenbowls.com (http://www.brokenbowls.com)
Hi Jonathan:
Long time no hear... thanks for the heads up but we bowlheads/hounds are pretty astute... Eugene noted this (see previous page of this thread) and Chris actually posted his announcement on another thread. These mandolins were from the collection of Pat Lawson, late director of the Victoria BC Mandolin Orchestra.

brunello97

Jun-19-2008, 10:38am

I admit taking pleasure in the very crisp MOP inlay on the Martellos shown above and on the Grassi as well. Martin's caveat regarding bling v tone is no doubt quite valid. # My tastes remain quite catholic, my eye being pleased perhaps when my ear is not.

But I have further question in that direction. #In comparing the first two Martellos to the Grassi, for instance, there is considerable difference in the grain of the tops. #Now, over in the 'Builders' section of the board much discussion is regularly made regarding the quality of the wood for the tops (usually carved, in there discussions.) A typical metric of quality is tightness of grain. #Certainly, tonal quality is shaped by a number of complex intertwining factors, but I was wondering if those same top wood grain concerns are also present in the world of the bowl?

Mick

vkioulaphides

Jun-19-2008, 11:21am

In short: yes. This I have seen and heard discussed countless times; I will, however, leave the explanation thereof to others. Like anything and everything else in life, this, too, is contestable. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Bob A

Jun-19-2008, 11:32am

I've seen Emberghers (and my Pecoraro) with grain lines so tight you need a magnifying glass to see some of the divisions. I've also played instruments with exceptionally broad grain. I'm not convinced that width is always a determiant of sound quality. Obviously the Embergher atelier would disagree, and who am I to argue with such folk? Stiffness may play #larger part than grain width, I suspect.

vkioulaphides

Jun-19-2008, 11:43am

I believe that the Calace shop, too, echoes the general "party line"... Then again, builders --"New German School" adherents apart-- praise and price their models based on such attributes as number of staves, and we all know how much that affects tone... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Eugene

Jun-20-2008, 11:26am

Is it the photo angle or does it seem to have a curious bowl profile--a rather steep transition from bowl to neck.
That's rather old fashioned, having occurred on some 18th-c. mandolins.

Eugene

Jun-20-2008, 11:34am

I don't normally browse Ebay US, but by chance I passed upon this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160251085916) auction for a Brandt bowlback, with front-mounted tuners on a violin-styled scroll headstock. #As a handy selling tool, the seller has put a nice Youtube video of him playing the mandolin in the auction, so at least one can be confident that it is actually playable and has a pretty decent tone.
I owned a very similar instrument that I sold to a Cafe-er on the north shore of Lake Huron. #I kept the two nut-most tuning posts on mine wound in reverse to reduce that obscene friction-inducing angle over the nut.

I've only seen two Brandts without the proper violin-like scroll. #One was a very early example with a more typical headstock, and the other had a very blocky and ugly partial scroll with squarish finial (like a grotesque and graceless Embergher). #They did better with full scrolls.

I like the Brandt aesthetic quite a bit. #They were endorsed by American virtuoso Seth Weeks (eh, Neil?). #Those couple functional ones I've seen (or, in one case, owned) seemed to me to be quite loud, but a little "unrefined" and brassy in tone.

brunello97

Jun-20-2008, 5:21pm

I love it when the conversation turns to scrolls around here, and (no disrespect to my F playing pals) we're not talking about those kind of scrolls:

Mick

dave17120

Jun-21-2008, 3:53am

Anyone spotted this one......... I don't think its been listed here? this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MANDOLINO-MANDOLINE-MANDOLIN-Milanese-OLD_W0QQitemZ130231498690QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 30231498690&_trkparms=39%3A1%7C65%3A1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14)

Eugene

Jun-21-2008, 8:57am

A late 19th-early 20th c. mandolino lombardo. It got mention in the "Mandolino" thread.

mandobuzz

Jun-21-2008, 2:21pm

I was very interested to see a Brandt mandolin on Ebay, and the discussion about it a few posts back. I also own a Brandt #that I bought off of Ebay recently. Prior to that I had never seen one. I'm trying to find out as much information about these mandolins and the builder as possible, with not a lot of luck. I know the basic biographical information of the builder (Here is an interesting link on him from a genealogy site: http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th....5679649 (http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BRANDT/2005-05/1115679649) ) and that his mandolins were sometimes distributed through William Lewis, and that he might have had an association with Lyon & Healy.

I am interested in learning more about the different models that he made. The 1x that just sold on Ebay is, cosmetically, the most plain I've seen. A style G up right now on Ebay (http://cgi.ebay.com/Rare-Antique-Brandt-Bowlback-Bowl-Back-Mandolin-NR_W0QQitemZ140242396715QQihZ004QQcategory

Z10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem ) is very similar to the one I own--labeled a #style C.

The other thing I am interested in is whether his mandolins had any influence on Lyon and Healy's decision to use a violin scroll on their model A mandolins?

Any more information about the builder or the mandolins would be appreciated!

Bob A

Jun-21-2008, 2:33pm

My understanding is that L&H used the luthiers in their violin department to make the mandolins in question. I suspect that their natural inclination would be to design a scroll for the style A, based on their other work.

Jim Garber

Jun-22-2008, 11:43am

The 1899 Embergher style 1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180253232354&ssPageName=ADME:B:WNA:US:1123) went for $2135 ... respectable but not outrageous, tho it is hard to tell how much work it will need to be playable.

vkioulaphides

Jun-22-2008, 7:54pm

Being an 1899 Model 1, it has the "short" fingerboard, i.e. the kind that does not stretch across to the "other" end of the soundhole; I believe that feature came about in the late teens, and was standard in the '20s. The rationale behind the extra length was, I think, to support the fingerboard, which could theoretically bend— if one presupposes significant use of the stratosphere, and perhaps also a rather heavy hand. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif (Incidentally, my Calace has not only the elongated fingerboard, but ALSO a hefty beam counter-supporting it inside the instrument. I cannot speak for such interior support in Emberghers, though...)

Interestingly enough, this instrument DID have a crack on the fingerboard, that could perhaps have been caused by that sort of material fatigue, i.e. by repeated flex, downwards under the player's hand, back upwards by reflex. Martin, or other engineer(s) on board may be able to confirm my hunch, or simply refute it. Yes, as Jim said, the price was not unreasonable. The catch, however, as always: pictures give one a VERY insufficient idea of what the instrument might actually need.

I wish the new owner of his fine-looking instrument best of luck.

Cheers,

Victor

Martin Jonas

Jun-23-2008, 3:46am

I'm not entirely sure when Embergher started stretching the extension across the entire soundhole, but my 1915 Tipo A does have the "long" extension, and I believe Jim's 1913 does, too. There is indeed a fairly substantial internal brace under the extension, not just the fingerboard itself. Longitudinal cracks on the fingerboard, such as on the Ebay Model 1, aren't all that rare in ebony fretboards, and of no major concern as they are not structural. My fretboard had a similar crack when I got it; Jon Springall filled it in with coloured wood filler at very little cost indeed, and it is now invisible. I don't think it has to do with repeated flexing (unless you're talking about a different crack from the one I see in the photos).

Martin

Jim Garber

Jun-23-2008, 7:01am

Yes, Martin, mine does extend tho I have pics of another one, a model 1 from the same year where it does not extend all the way. Maybe it was not a consistent model feature until later in the teens?

vkioulaphides

Jun-23-2008, 8:24am

I checked with the Pratt/Leenen text, and the date given is 1917; clearly, however, that must be the time these elongated fingerboards were made a standard feature, since they were (as per the above reports) in existence well before that time.

In any case, the crack --yes, Martin, I mean the same one you do-- was not the kind of defect that should discourage any potential owner. But Jim has had other, more *ahem* complicated experiences with vintage Emberghers, involving more than the eye can see...

Cheers,

Victor

vkioulaphides

Jun-24-2008, 2:42pm

In light of <a href="http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/SECONDHAND-BOWEL-BACK-MANDOLIN-made-in-ITALY-NAPOLI_W0QQitemZ370063380631QQcmdZViewItem?ha
sh=item370063380631&_trkparms=72%3A638%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14" target="_blank">such</a> infelicitous typos (or misunderstandings), Bowel-Backs and all, I suggest that a Bowl-Back Antidefamation League be instantly formed. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

brunello97

Jun-24-2008, 4:39pm

Victor, I 'move' that we adopt your motion....

Mick

Jim Garber

Jun-25-2008, 1:35pm

Despite what the seller days this is an Embergher Type A (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150262362002&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:Watchlink:middle:us), (not type 1) tho I do believe that it is a later one made by Cerrone.

vkioulaphides

Jun-25-2008, 1:56pm

Yes, I agree, and on both counts. IMPECCABLE! Curiously, the differential between opening, asking bid and BuyItNow price is minuscule... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I'd buy it, but I'm short... lemme see... uhmm... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Best of luck to the one who does acquire this.

Cheers,

Victor

Jim Garber

Jun-25-2008, 2:07pm

Overpriced at any rate... IMHO.

vkioulaphides

Jun-25-2008, 2:36pm

Still nice to look at, though... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

vkioulaphides

Jun-26-2008, 2:22pm

If

1. you are interested in a "baritone" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif mandola,
2. you are located (or have a contact) in Italy,
3. have a few shekels to spare, AND
4. can do/get decent repair-work economically

then

this (http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLA-BARITONO_W0QQitemZ110265322872QQcmdZViewItem?hash= item110265322872&_trkparms=72%3A909%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) is a curiously Embergher-esque creature that, IMHO, will go for dirt.

None of the above, of course, amounts to a recommendation. Just curiosity...

vkioulaphides

Jun-27-2008, 11:44am

Curiously, gone... The seller set (after my above posting) a BuyItNow price at 220 Euro, then the instrument vanished. Oh, well... at 1 Euro, it was something to muse over.

brunello97

Jun-27-2008, 4:03pm

Wow, Victor, that was subito. The seller said he was going on vacation so he wanted to sell it fast. That was sure a nice looking maple bowl!

Mick

vkioulaphides

Jun-27-2008, 6:57pm

È vero. Originally the auction would have ended on the 30th, and the seller wanted payment on the same day, so he/she could cash in on Monday, and send off the instrument on the same day. Later the BuyItNow option came to mind, and the rest is history. Oh, well...

Considering the oddness of the instrument, and the *ahem* infelicitous description as a "baritone" mandola, I had —maliciously, perhaps— expected this to sell for 20-30 euro at best. Yes, nice maple bowl; oooooooooogleeeeeeeee pickguard, though. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Oh, well...

brunello97

Jun-27-2008, 8:08pm

Victor, that pickguard is strange looking. #I can't tell from the photo, but there looks like a bare patch below the soundhole. #Maybe this is a replacement? #Kind of has that big oversized look like some of the Larsons' I've seen (but much less Larson-like.) # Still, at least it didn't have one of those silly dragons on it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Sono un sempliciotto #per il acero, though.

Jonathan

Jun-27-2008, 10:33pm

49.5 cm is a long vibrating string length even for an "octave" mandola. That, and the fact that it was referred to as a baritone mandola makes me wonder if it was some sort of cello/dola hybrid meant to be tuned somewhere in between.

trebleclef528

Jun-28-2008, 5:43am

I,ve had a couple of these Embergheryyyy (http://cgi.ebay.it/MANDOLA-BARITONO_W0QQitemZ110265322872QQcmdZViewItem?hash= item110265322872&_trkparms=72%3A909%7C39%3A1%7C65%3A12&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14) type mandolins, although never a mandola.

I'm fairly certain that this is a "Belcanto" mandola as the shape of the scratch plate / pickguard is one of their standard features. Belcanto were based in Rome and most of their mandolins were in the Embergher / Roman mandolin style. Fairly good instruments..... although nowhere even close to the quality of Embergher.

vkioulaphides

Jun-28-2008, 9:05am

"49.5 cm is a long vibrating string length even for an "octave" mandola."

True. Still, that leaves me wondering what exactly the optimal stringing could/would be... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Perhaps octave-stringing, but with EXTRA-light-gauge strings? Anyhow, the point is moot.

Cheers,

Victor

vkioulaphides

Jul-01-2008, 10:58am

Say... if you have, oh... $50K to spare, or rather spend on "trinkets of dubious utility" (to quote Adam Smith), <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Rare-Ancient-instrument-Lute-or-Ud_W0QQitemZ280240221288QQihZ018QQcategoryZ359QQss Pag
eNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> may be of interest-- whatEVER that thing is. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Or maybe not.

But I'm sure the famed primadonna knows the true value of her treasures; who am I to doubt her?

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. Clearly, a slow day at the office. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

trebleclef528

Jul-01-2008, 2:14pm

What an object of extreme beauty (the instrument, not the primadonna). I think I saw a similar extremely rare one in a Turkish market in Germany for 10 Euro. But hey! why go for this when the said primadonna is also selling <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Very-Rare-Original-ANTONIO-STRADIVARI-1719-violin_W0QQitemZ280238819496QQihZ018QQcategoryZ
38108QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a> at the knock down price of $1 million (Canadian dollars of course).... what you don'y get injured in the rush to buy.

Jim Garber

Jul-01-2008, 2:22pm

I suppose that $1,000,000 is a real bargain for a real Strad. However, you would think that even at that bargain price a little customer service would be welcome:

Thank you to all people who sent me letters and offered help, I don't need it. Sorry, I am not able to answer to all questions. If you did not receive from me answer, probably I answered similar already or it's described above. Please read carefully all questions and answers before bidding. This auction for violin only! This violin have NO CERTIFICATES! This is FINAL SALE, NO REFUND, NO EXCHANGE! Thank you and Good Luck!

vkioulaphides

Jul-01-2008, 2:28pm

The operative term being, of course, "real". http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

vkioulaphides

Jul-01-2008, 2:35pm

For somewhat more modest budgets, going in about half-an-hour from now, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/1893-Luigi-Salsedo-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ230265198664QQihZ013QQcategoryZ1 0179QQssPageNameZWDVW
QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Salsedo</a> is, I believe, a decent builder.

Caveat emptor. This is NOT a recommendation. Still, if you have less than a million dollars, this is something to look at.

Cheers,

Victor

Bob A

Jul-01-2008, 3:38pm

That Strad has been a topic of some amusement on Maestronet. At that price it won't last much longer, no doubt. And the oud! Hope springs eternal, along with fraud and greed.

The Salsedo languished unbidfor at $150. With a cracked top and replacement tailpiece, it'd be worth a hundred bucks as a fixer-upper, I have no doubt. As a Salsedo fan I'd be tempted; as a guy awash in fixer-uppers, I'll have to pass.

Martin Jonas

Jul-01-2008, 4:46pm

Hmmm. The Salsedo is of course a very plain example, but he was a decent maker and I would have thought should have been worth the $150 starting bid even with those cracks.

Martin

Schlegel

Jul-01-2008, 7:33pm

Well then, by comparison to the "strad" this (http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Hand-made-Mandolin-100-yrs-old_W0QQitemZ190233794633QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 90233794633http://cgi.ebay.com/Antique-Hand-made-Mandolin-100-yrs-old_W0QQitemZ190233794633QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item1 90233794633) is a bargain!

Bob A

Jul-01-2008, 8:18pm

Oh, it was probably worth the whole 150, but I was thinking that offering the seller a C-note might shake it loose. Just a cheapjack bottom-feeder, me.

man dough nollij

Jul-01-2008, 8:34pm

Only $50,000 for a used one-string banjo? Where do I sign up? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

brunello97

Jul-01-2008, 10:38pm

Is Louis Sutz for real? I have seen references for guitars and violins under his name, but this is a new mandolin name for me, most interesting if actually made in Cincinnati, after seeing many Chicago made Wurlitzers, et al sold out of Queen City shops.

I'd appreciate hearing any additional information, it it is out there.

Mick

vkioulaphides

Jul-02-2008, 11:43am

As per this (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080702/sc_nm/stradivarius_dc) new discovery, always make sure you ask your favorite luthier for "even density wood" on the mandolins you commission.

That, or buy that economic, certainly authentic Strad for a mere pittance of a million-or-so. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Cheers,

Victor

Jim Garber

Jul-02-2008, 12:18pm

Using an adaptation of a computer program developed to calculate lung densities in people with emphysema, they were able to analyze the physical properties of violins without risking damage to instruments worth millions of dollars.

That is why my mandolin sounds so much better in those smoky (cough!) bars.

vkioulaphides

Jul-02-2008, 1:00pm

... even though, Jim, that might have to do more with the relative densities of the liquids involved. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers,

Victor

brunello97

Jul-06-2008, 6:45pm

I thought to post a few photos of a German made mandolin I recently bought from Chris's 'broken bowls' auction. # #I have never had a Roman style bowlback to play before and of course these bowls are going for a pittance. #

I am not at all familiar with the maker, and the 'Junghanns Nachf' (note 2 Ns in the name) and the M/P logo have me at a loss. #Hopefully Martin (or someone else familiar with German makers has some information.) #My long time office mate is from Bremerhaven and my mother-in-law's family is from all over this region, so there is some sentimental interest as well.

It seems a quite modest attempt at various Roman/Emberger features. #An extraordinarily tiny neck dimension (which I have been forewarned about.) # The neck is a bit out, but I think I can tweak some bridge adjustment-and a new nut- to get the action reasonable. # # The neck problem seems related to the the top sinking a bit above the soundhole-a problem I have come across on numerous Italian bowls. #It is #not past hope however, with perhaps some added lamination to the underside of the top here, as I have seen as a feature of old Martin bowls. #The frets are shot and will need to be replaced.

I'll attach a few photos over a couple posts.

thanks for any insight.

Mick

brunello97

Jul-06-2008, 6:52pm

Here is another pair showing the neck and the fretboard extension with an embossed 'M'. What, if anything, was used to line the small circular (soundholes?) below the pickguard?

I'm assuming the TK stands for Tonio Kroger, right?

Bob A

Jul-06-2008, 7:32pm

The holes, and for that matter the pickguard, are very reminiscent of Calace mandolins from the 1920s. No one seems to have any idea what the holes are for, though I have a vague idea that they provide a sort of additional tremolo effect by virtue of the pick hand wagging back and forth over them while playing.

No doubt the German builder was as puzzled as the rest of us, but figured that if Calace did it, it must be the thing to do.

Bob A

Jul-09-2008, 7:47pm

Speaking of Calace mandolins, I was just cruising Bernunzio's site and note that he has just listed a 1971 Calace with scalloped rosewood ribs. No photo as yet, and I'm not sure what model it is, but the listing quotes a price of $2500. Should anyone be interested. No personal financial interest, nor am I pursuing it.

dave17120

Jul-11-2008, 11:39am

The little do-hickey that went in the hole was usually plastic or bone, with a central hole, and a slight overlap at the top to stop it going all the way through. You often see them in the sides of German mandolins as well. I'll see if I have one to photo graph. Dave

Schlegel

Jul-20-2008, 2:01pm

I just came across this photo, said to be from a catalog for Brandt.
http://www.harpguitars.net/iconography/mayflower_brandt_cat-rich_myers.jpg

Alex Timmerman

Jul-20-2008, 2:19pm

Hi Schlegel,

That is a very nice photo!

Thanks for posting!

Alex

Eugene

Jul-20-2008, 3:22pm

Where did you find this, Schlegel? #I've never seen a Brandt catalog, but would certainly like to.

Jim Garber

Jul-20-2008, 4:27pm

Where did you find this, Schlegel? I've never seen a Brandt catalog, but would certainly like to.
As I figured, from Gregg Miner's site.

Hidden in this picture is what I believe is a fancy model May Flower harp guitar - another Chicago brand of which some are believed to be Larson-built. From an undated (c.1900) Rudolph Wurlitzer Co. brochure on Brandt mandolins.
courtesy of Rich Myers

See this page (http://www.harpguitars.net/iconography/icon-american_id.htm) (scroll down some).