Bowlbacks of Note

[Ali]

Hi all - just to clarify - "Spot on" meant spot on interms of a period.... i.e. I'll bet its from between 1760-1768/9....not quite literally 1760...... 1760 would be the bare earliest really and those buttons usually date from a smidge later....also the one in the German auction had a guide price of 15,000-17,000 EUROS not pounds.... and didn't seem to sell.... but think it was signed and dated..... I've manage to photocopy the page wonky and now can't read the date but think it was 1767..... but this one in the German auction was SO like my VINNY (1764)....me and my luthier have christened it Sister-of-Vinny....only the fingerboard inlay is different and the front of headstocl/buttons on side (mine has no buttons).... all the other inlay is IDENTICAL..... but this Italian Ebay one has some noticeable differences in inlay work, its also longer bodied than mine and has a very slightly different shaped sound hole.....
On the subject of Vinny..... I am having him fairly faithfully copied but an extremely good British Luthier called Martin Bowers..... once he's copied him once, he could do it again......anyone want a Vencenzo Vinaccia 1764 mandolin copy? I'm SO excited about mine.... due to be finished this summer.....he's been christened already.....Son-of-Vinny of course!
All the best
Excited mandolin wierdo #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Eric, Ali and all,

I think you are refering to this particular Neapolitan mandolin (see attached photo). If not, well here is yet another excellent example of one of the very best Neapolitan makers of that period.

It was sold at an Austria auction not long ago with the following description:

Vinaccia, Vincenzo (Neapel, 2. Hälfte 18. Jh.) #Eine sehr feine und seltene Neapolitanische Mandoline, mit Originalzettel, datiert 1769. Gebeizter Ahornkorpus, kanellierte Scheiben, Perlmutt- und Schildpatteinlagen, Beindekorationen, in Originalzustand. (MB) EURO 11.000 - 13.000 US$ 14.300 - 16.900 AS Museal!

Translation: Vinaccia, Vincenzo (Neapel, 2nd half 18 Century). A very delicate and rare Neapolitan mandolin, with original label, dated 1769. Stained maple bowl, channaled ribs, mother-of-pearl and tortoise shell intarsia, bone decorations, in original state. (MB) EURO 11.000 - 13.000 US$ 14.300 - 16.900 AS Museum quality!

Both this one and the one for sale now at Ebay are indeed wonderful instruments.


Cheers and best to you all,

Alex

[etbarbaric]

Thanks for that Alex. #Another wonderful example indeed. #Alison, please do keep us in the loop on the copy of your "VINNY". #Faithful modern copies of these things are rare enough.

Best,

Eric

ps - For what its worth, buttons/pips do show up on earlier Neapolitan instruments as well. I've often imagined them as electrodes, or electric insulators... :-)

[Neil Gladd]

Here's a good one for "heavy metal" music -- by Hutchins (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120102645258).

Jim
It went for $203.50. Probably a reasonable price.

[Jim Garber]

Here's a good one for "heavy metal" music -- by Hutchins (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120102645258).

Jim
It went for $203.50. Probably a reasonable price.
Bought by my cyberfriend in Vienna, Christian Steinbrecher. I have been trying to get him to join our little group here. Perhaps some day.

Jim

[Ali]

Yup Alex - thats the one. Do you know what it went for? The list of final prices didn't show it. Beautiful isn't it? I prefer the inlay on Vinny though on the neck and headstock....biased I know!
Ali

[trebleclef528]

Ali... When son of Vinny is born will you post the photo's so we can all say "awe" he's..just like his dad"(in a Scottish accent of course.. hey! there's a good idea.. why don't you call him MacVinny?) ?
Sorry about the 1760 ... I knew you did'nt mean spot on as in spot on (3rd April 1760 at 2.00pm .. that would be spot on)... but you meant spot on as in "around about".... have I got it spot on?

Anyway.. i see that as yet there are still no bids on the "ebay one"
Cheers
Ian
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Bob A]

Given that the antiques in question are not only somewhat pricey, but also 250 years old, I wonder how instruments of that age and pedigree compare to more recent copies.
I'm also curious as to price differential. A Daniel Larson copy, with all the bells and whistles, would run around $5400, more or less. WHile it's kind of dumb to ask if the antique is twice the mandolin that a quality repro would be, what might the advantage be in owning the Real Thing?

So, for those who know: how about a side-by-side comparison between old and new?

[Jim Garber]

Given that the antiques in question are not only somewhat pricey, but also 250 years old, I wonder how instruments of that age and pedigree compare to more recent copies.
I'm also curious as to price differential. A Daniel Larson copy, with all the bells and whistles, would run around $5400, more or less. WHile it's kind of dumb to ask if the antique is twice the mandolin that a quality repro would be, what might the advantage be in owning the Real Thing?

So, for those who know: how about a side-by-side comparison between old and new?
Same question comes up in the other sections on the Cafe regarding Loars. Lots of good copies but are they worth 1/10 (or less) of the price of a Loar. There is intrinsic value of an object and then there is the market value and other factors that come into play.

Interesting also that Alex mentions Wolfgagn Frueh's copies:


As for the copies of Neapolitan mandolins used by Jean-Paul and his band made by the Paris based luthier Wolfgang Früh, info can now be found at the latter's website. Click on this line to find the site. (http://www.lepointdaccroche.com/?Les_Instruments)

This Vinaccia copy (http://www.lepointdaccroche.com/?Les_Instruments:Fabrication:Mandoline_Napolitaine ) bears quite a resemblance to the mandolin in question.

Jim

[Eugene]

Somewhere, I've discussed this before. There seems a cut-off someplace in the early to mid 19th-c. Older, and originals tend to cost more than reproductions; newer, and reproductions tend to cost more than originals.

[etbarbaric]

Given that the antiques in question are not only somewhat pricey, but also 250 years old, I wonder how instruments of that age and pedigree compare to more recent copies.

Hi Bob,

It probably goes without saying that the modern reproduction is likely to be less fragile and more likely to be generally playable. Beyond that it will be an individual matter of the luthier's skill as to how they compare. At the same time, my very limited experience having these instruments restored has been mostly positive, but also nerve-wracking and expensive. Perhaps Ali can relate how her copy ends up comparing to the original once its finished.

It can also be difficult to find modern luthiers who will copy an instrument faithfully without interjecting some of their own "expertise" or "creativity" along the way. Sometimes this is OK, sometimes not. Some amount of variation is also inevitable even in the most careful hands... such is the art and beauty of a hand-made instrument. Sometimes modern luthiers have a hard time believing the evidence before them... less and less so thankfully.

In other ways copies and originals are apples and oranges. I am interested in the original instruments because of what can be learned from them. This can be in the form of original bits and pieces or as subtle as playing wear on the top. The arc of a few scratches can speak volumes about how a instrument was held and played. Even within 18th century Neapolitan mandolins there is also an incredible range of shapes, sizes, ornament, etc.

I currently have a relatively late 18th century Neapolitan instrument in restoration... At last report, the 213 year old "clench" nail in the neck was still stubbornly doing its job (and resisting a necessary neck reset). Needless to say, these kinds of repairs require extreme patience and long experience on the part of a luthier, and a healthy (and often dynamic) budget. Its hard to know what you're getting into until you're into it. Not for the faint of heart.

Of course uninformed restoration brings huge risks as well... and most of the surviving pieces of this vintage need rather complete rework... thus the high price tag for one in (presumably) operable condition. Of course "operable" can also be a subjective term... caveat emptor.

The unfortunate bit about the price tags of originals is that they tend to end up in collections, rather in the hands of players.

Sorry for the ramble...

Eric

[Bob A]

No apologies for information given, please. All is welcome, and I (unlike the more scholarly folk) value anecdotal information.

Apples and oranges, of course, and fragility is a given. While it's impossible to know how a "new" 1760 instrument would stack up against a recent copy, would anyone care to venture an opinion whether the sound of a 250 year old mandolin can be said to be improved over a fresh instrument? In the fiddle world, of course, this horse is regularly flogged, with the usual continuum of opinion. Given the different nature of the mandolin, I'd suspect that great age does not directly translate into improved tonal characteristics, but I'm willing to be found wrong.

[brunello97]

Well, Bob, with apologies to Seabisquit, I'd be interested in learning what the consensus, or individual, take is on trajectories of age and tone with high quality woods and mandolins.

I've heard a version from a violinist friend who owns an instrument from roughly this period (1760, I think) and not too recently from Pavarotti viz his voice (not in person, my you.)

This thread is onto a nice diversion with this ebay auction and interesting information is bubbling up.

Mick

PS After about another year, maybe or another 100 pages of posts, Scott and Jim should get together and publish this thread verbatim as a book "Bowlbacks of Note". Would make for great reading.

[Ali]

Hi,
Obviously, I don't have my copy yet but we have taken great care in choosing the wood which is arguably one of the main parts of a tonal equation. The sound board is actually a recycled one from an old instrument #(which couldn't be rescued) so it will be well aged and "activated". In my wildest dreams I don't expect Son-of-Vinny to have anywhere near the tonal qualities of Vinny. Vinny is extraordinary.... but I think some of his tone is a direct result of his fragility...... I once played a 1934 (I think) Embergher 5b with terrible strings on in an auction viewing gallery with two HUGE cracks on sound board and I've never heard anything like it. incredible depth of tone.... but I strongly suspect that mend it....and the tone will change....so the fact that Vinny is cranky, fragile, reacts incredibly badly to temperature change and humidity levels all contribute to his tone. He also weighs in the region of under 12oz.... even with Martin skills I'll be amazed if he can keep the weight down to anywhere near that.....
I could go on for ever.....
Also, as a player, I absolutely believe an instrument needs to be "activated" to start realising its potential. Even very old instruments, if they've not been played for ages, don't have anywhere the tone they will develop if you then let a good player batter them for a couple of years.
I'll stop now.
ALI

[etbarbaric]

Its great to hear that Ali. #Its very interesting that you're using old tone-wood. I too think that weight is a great parameter to target (or at last be aware of). These old instruments are *very* light. Your auction description jives well with my experience (spot on eh? :-)). #I have often stroked old, broken, out-of-tune instruments with rusted and missing strings and gone "wow!" #

I have to admit to being a fan of old instruments, prejudiced perhaps. #I very much liked Richard's use of words... such instruments do provide inspiration. I am also a violinist by background, and I play a couple of old fiddles that I dearly love... #There are, of course, too many factors that could contribute to that love.. old (better?) woods, play-in by many hands, passage of time, luthier skill/technique, my own inspiration, etc. #I also have played some very fine modern instruments.

I've related my experiences in these pages with a restored 1801 Cremonese mandolin. #IMHO it is very successful, even though its top had to be put back together from something like 7 pieces (some as small as toothpicks). #Of course, it is the only Cremonese mandolin I've played... so comparison is more difficult. #The conventional wisdom is that old violins are great, but old plucked instruments are tired, played out, fragile, museum pieces, etc. #Some of this is true, but clearly YMMV. #Most old violins are pretty heavily altered, as well, which has to be factored in (longer necks, higher tensions, beefier bass bars, modern strings/pitch, etc.)

The issue of weight/fragility is paramount, and I believe, intentional to some degree. #While restoring my Cremonese, I talked with my luthier about making drawings so it could be copied (perhaps by someone else). #His curmudeonly response was that he could draw the tollerances, but that nobody would believe them. #Even if someone wanted to build a top at around a 1mm in thickness (or less), they would be hard-pressed to find spruce to handle the job in the modern world. Successful replication depends on the luthier being willing to really push the limits of what the modern mind thinks is possible. #My luthier has used the phrase "on the hairy edge of physics" a couple of times. #I remember Dan Larson telling me once that he discarded a huge number of tops before finding what he liked for his copies of the Cutler-Challen Strad mandolino (like 12 or 24... can't remember).

So.. long story too long, Bob, I guess I agree in that I wouldn't necessarily say that age alone would be a good thing for tone, but that there are many, many variables. #These old guys were working in the midst of the art form, and we should expect good results from their instruments. #Modern luthiers can study, analyze, and even replicate the physical results, but they may never have a full picture of the thought and technique that went into these instruments.

Enough out of me...

Eric

ps - As an appropriate disclaimer, I also restore old mud houses for fun, so I am fairly used to seeing value in things that others would not, and also used to people thinking that I've lost my mind... :-)

pps - Of course, an old instrument like the Vinaccia in the EBay auction truly needs historic strings (brass, twisted brass, gut), low tension, quill plectrum, careful technique, and probably a different pitch standard. #Slap on some modern strings and crank it to A=440 and it will be kindling in short order. It is a very different machine than even a 19th century instrument.

[Bob A]

YES! This is indeed what I was looking for.

I'm especially impressed with the conclusions drawn regarding weight; while many fine mandolins are constructed woth a certain heft (Calace and Pecoraro come to mind), generally the ones I like best are the ones that you pick up and are surprised by the feather-light quality.

The lightest mandolin I've ever held was Neil Gladd's Tumiati; seemed like it was made of balsa wood. (BTW, Strings Magazine had an article last year about innovative luthiers. One fellow had made a balsa cello, which received some acclaim from players).

[brunello97]

Wait a minute:

"....restore old mud houses for fun." Can you elaborate? And here I was thinking I'm speaking into the void viz 'an architecture of girth'. etbarbaric, please either pm me, or we hijack the thread to further extremes. Building from earth is my turf, in a word.

Mick

[etbarbaric]

Hey Mick,

I'll PM you... as I've hijacked this thread enough!

Eric

[Fliss]

I've been on that auction site again... here's my new addition!

Fliss

[Jim Garber]

I've been on that auction site again... here's my new addition!
Fliss...

What is it?

Jim

[Fliss]

Calace, 1974. Sorry, I shouldn't tease, posting the picture without saying! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Fliss

PS I've had it a couple of days now and am still making up my mind about it. The action is really high at the moment so I won't really know whether I'm going to like the playability until I get that sorted out, but I really like it other than that. #

[Eugene]

Sounds like a fine reason for a set up. Congrats, Fliss...I think.

[Jim Garber]

A simply-adorned American Conservatory mandola (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190100639385).

I have one of these and they are nice playing instruments.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Max McCullough is selling this nice Lyon & Healy Style A (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190101360607) on ebay. I know... not a bowlback but of definite interest to many of us of the classical persuasion.

Jim

[Bob A]

Well, if you could only have one mandolin, and didn't play bluegrass, the L&H would be an excellent choice, I suppose.

Anyone here have just one mandolin?

[jasona]

Define "here". I have only one, but do not play classical primarily (nor bluegrass, for that matter). I just come for the free pastries.

[Jim Garber]

Define "here". I have only one, but do not play classical primarily (nor bluegrass, for that matter). I just come for the free pastries.
Here is in our little corner of the Cafe, you know, behind the cappucino machine. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[Jim Garber]

This Embergher liuto (http://www.guitar-lute.narod.ru/eng.htm), owned by a Russian guitar player, is pictured in Ralf and Barry's book. This guy must have bee quite surprised to find out that he has a very rare instrument.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Jim and others interested,

Indeed Valery Afanassiev from Sint-Petersburg (that's the name of the lucky owner) was very surprised when I told him what kind of an Embergher instrument he owned. When I found it on the internet (way back) he had named it being a 'guitar-lute'.
In the e-mails we shared from then, he explained that it was found in somekind of a 2nd hand 'antique' shop, and that he had it 'repaired' and since then played it as a guitar (as he still does).

Of course, after he understood what exactly he had bought, he felt very fortunate and corrected the wrong name on the internet into Liuto cantabile. That is how it became known.
Valery is a nice guy and provided me with all the details, photos and measurements I asked for. In fact the measurements on the photo shown here, he made for me. Knowing how much he likes (t)his Liuto cantabile, I don't think he will ever part from it. But for me that is OK; it's in good hands.

For those who like to see the width and depht of the bowl of this interesting early Liuto cantabile, an (I think up to now) unknown photo is shown at the History page of my Embergher website (click here). (http://www.embergher.com/index.php?id=64)


Best,

Alex

[Eugene]

Afanassiev's liuto cantbile has gotten a lot of chat here in the distant past.

[Jim Garber]

Someone else on the Cafe discovered the liuto site and made mention of it recently. I had not seen it for a few years before he had the measurements listed.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Nice looking Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230114873580).

Jim

[Bob A]

Not what you'd call a bowlback, nor yet a boatback, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-PARTICOLARE-LIUTAIO-ALFREDO-MONTANARI-1919-88_W0QQitemZ110114922745QQihZ001QQcat
egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">it's an odd duck, not without a certain charm.</a>

[Jim Garber]

Not what you'd call a bowlback, nor yet a boatback, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-PARTICOLARE-LIUTAIO-ALFREDO-MONTANARI-1919-88_W0QQitemZ110114922745QQihZ001QQcat


egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">it's an odd duck, not without a certain charm.</a>
Ugly duckling, I would say. Bologna does have its share of luthiers who stray from the norm, notably Mozzani. Never heard of Montanari tho.

I will ask my Bolognese violin-making friend if he has any clues.

Tis one falls into that boatback style, sort of. I have seen a few Mozzani's made like that, Toni Nigrelli's for one -- a sweet instrument -- but I think Mozzani's designs have more grace.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Well... there IS a book of etudes for double bass by a gent named Montanari; once you get through them, your bass may very well look like the mandolin in question. But I trust that the synonymity is purely accidental. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Or perhaps the luthier referenced forgot to imprint the "Do NOT Microwave" warning at the bottom of the would-have-been bowl.

Weird...

[Jim Garber]

Not what you'd call a bowlback, nor yet a boatback, <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/MANDOLINO-PARTICOLARE-LIUTAIO-ALFREDO-MONTANARI-1919-88_W0QQitemZ110114922745QQihZ001QQcat

egoryZ10179QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">it's an odd duck, not without a certain charm.</a>
Uh-oh, Bob... are you considering this?

Jim

[Bob A]

Feel free to leap at it, Jim. I'd snap it up at 350 US, but I'm not flush with cash, and I can't walk thru the house without stepping on a mandolin any more. But it Does sort of speak to me. I think it's the aerodynamics of the thing.

Of course, I have five days left to regret my better judgement.

[Jim Garber]

Nah... I have enough odd ducks at the moment and it is overseas (to me) which presents more problems then it is worth. Besides you do need such a thing, don't you?

Jim

[Plamen Ivanov]

Hello,

A week ago, i had the chance to try a Dekavala mandolin. I made a search with the search engine of the Message Board and found out that the name of this greek builder was mentioned ocassionally among the names of other greek mandolin builders and no special reference has been made to his instruments. So here are few words.

First impression is that the building of mandolins is for the craftsman a secondary activity. Primary beeing the manufacturing of bouzukis, baglamas, etc. traditional instruments. This results in just one model (walnut, 30 ribs) with some imperfections in the finishing. Another evidence for the secondary importance of the mandolin as a product for sale was the bluegrass set of strings put on the mandolin. Despite the above said the mandolin sounded very nice to me and i enjoyed playing it for about twenty minutes. Easy playing, loud sound. The price is EUR 500.

C. Dekavala is a well respected craftsman for his bouzukis and baglamas. I would say his mandolins are also of very good quality and if there was a greater demand, he would probably pay a closer attention to some details as regards the mandolins.

Best,
Plamen

[vkioulaphides]

So you were in Thessaloniki, Plamen? Nice town... I spent some of my early years there.

While I have never handled any of Dekavalas' mandolins, your account sounds perfectly fair and accurate. I, too, wish that Greek luthiers would receive more orders for mandolins. But, of course, I've done my share... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers,

Victor

[Bob A]

Jim, I'm weakening. I've emailed the fellow in Italia. Darn thing is too cute. But Ima not chase it too far.

Nice to see more Hellenic instruments. I continue to enjoy my walnut Kevorkian. Durable construction allows me to pick with the grandson without fear or guilt.

[Jim Garber]

Hey, Bob here is one of the larger photos I got from the guy. Make sure you wear protective eyewear -- watch out for those points.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Puglisi is a pretty common brand on Ebay Germany, but I thought it might be worth pointing this (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150112260702) one out, as it is still very cheap with little more than two hours to go. #I'm not a fan of butterfly scratchplates, but I know some are.

And another (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230118917614) Puglisi, much grander and clearly following the Calace design of the period. Again, I'm not a fan of D-shaped soundholes, but others may be.

Martin

[Plamen Ivanov]

Thank you, Martin, for pointing those Puglisi mandolins out! While the first one is pretty typical, i have to admit that i see a Calace-like Puglisi for the first time! Very interesting!

Good luck!
Plamen

[brunello97]

And another (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230118917614) Puglisi, much grander and clearly following the Calace design of the period. Again, I'm not a fan of D-shaped soundholes, but others may be.

Martin

Thanks for the tip, Martin. I'll go out on the limb and admit to actually liking the looks of this one. But I'm an admitted fan of the jugendstilischness. I'm going to float a few bids from my still not very deep pockets and see how far I might go in the auction. (Not very I suppose.)

Mick

[Jim Garber]

That Puglisi scratchplate looks remarkably oversized esp since it extends to the edge of the instrument. Makes it look even stranger than normal. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Jim

[brunello97]

Yes, Jim, but it is super-schöne!

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220103653897) is a fairly plain Salsedo on Ebay UK. The BIN is a bit optimistic even for one in top condition, and this one is more than a little dubious structurally: have a look at the action on the side-on view. This neck joint is busted!

Speaking of dubious items, what do others think of this (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170104487657) supposed Ferrari. The bowl has fluted ribs and looks very nice, but this top surely has nothing to do with it. This looks to have been retopped by some amateur in the past; in some wildly inappropriate wood. Now, it's just folk art.

Martin

[brunello97]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220103653897) is a fairly plain Salsedo on Ebay UK. The BIN is a bit optimistic even for one in top condition, and this one is more than a little dubious structurally: have a look at the action on the side-on view. This neck joint is busted!

Martin,
No worries. I'm sure if you asked the seller you'd find out that a'professional' assured him that some players like their action "a little bit higher."
Mick

[Jim Garber]

You think that that Salsedo is overvalued, take a look at this übervalued Liebich mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280107430757&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1). Plus overinflated shipping for this one.

At least the fretboard still has action.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Ouch! I think he'll be lucky to get $73.51 for it.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

I'm going to float a few bids from my still not very deep pockets and see how far I might go in the auction. (Not very I suppose.)
Good luck with it, Mick. If you don't get this one, you might always consider this (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180108704733) Herwiga, also channeling the Calace vibes. A bit clumsier in execution, but with lots of nicely fluted ribs.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

Ouch! I think he'll be lucky to get $73.51 for it.

Martin
Well, I heard from the seller and he/she said:


This mandolin was appraised by a musical instrument dealer.We know what he will give us for it and it was suggested that we place on ebay to see what the market might bear first. The opening bid is generious at best based on what we know.obviuously there is something about this piece that makes it rare and valuable.Quite frankly we were shocked by the valuation this almost went to GoodWill.

I checked in my trusty Henley and found Ernst Liebich listed there as a violinmaker (his father was also a maker) who also made violas, cellos guitars and lutes. This is, no doubt, the same maker. This puts it in different perspective but still nowhere near the valuation that these folks posted.

I am awaiting better photos and perhaps this might be a nice decently made old mandolin. Then again, maybe this store owner offered them half of what they posted.

Jim

[brunello97]

I'm going to float a few bids from my still not very deep pockets and see how far I might go in the auction. (Not very I suppose.)
Good luck with it, Mick. If you don't get this one, you might always consider this (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180108704733) Herwiga, also channeling the Calace vibes. A bit clumsier in execution, but with lots of nicely fluted ribs.

Martin
Thanks, Martin, I'll keep an eye on this one as well. It is finally spring in up north and things floral are catching my eye. Certainly a rash of interesting instruments passing through the channels these days.

Mick

[brunello97]

Not to spin off topic on the Liebich, but the Breslau tag ought to elicit at least a smattering of interest from the historically minded. A beautiful city with a tragic history.

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

I checked in my trusty Henley and found Ernst Liebich listed there as a violinmaker (his father was also a maker) who also made violas, cellos guitars and lutes. This is, no doubt, the same maker.
But of course he may only have sold it, not made it. That label is at the back of the headstock, and it says "Ernst Liebich - violin maker". Strange wording to put on a label on a mandolin you've built. He wouldn't be the only luthier who also sells generic cheaper instruments through his shop. This mandolin looks bog-standard Markneukirchen mass production.

I do wonder whether this appraiser has really made the seller an offer in the thousands, as he implies. It's one thing to put an exaggerated valuation on an instrument for an appraiser who really knows violins better than mandolins; it's quite a different matter to put one's own money on the line and make a subtantial offer.

Martin

[brunello97]

Martin,

What characteristics suggest Markneukirchen to you? #I am quite unfamiliar with German mandolins (bowlbacks for sure). Slotted headstocks and perhaps the scratch guards seem identifiable, but if you have five minutes to explain the characteristics to the uniniatated, I would learn a lot.

thanks,

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Martin:
You hit the nail on the proverbial head. This is from a disk of German catalogs I bought from Christian Steinbrecher of Vienna. This is a Johannes Adler (Markneukirchen) catalog.

The center one #2137 resembles the Liebich.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here is a close-up of #2137.

Jim

[trebleclef528]

Quote:Martinjonas 23rd April 2007

"But of course he may only have sold it, not made it. #That label is at the back of the headstock, and it says "Ernst Liebich - violin maker". #Strange wording to put on a label on a mandolin you've built. #He wouldn't be the only luthier who also sells generic cheaper instruments through his shop. #This mandolin looks bog-standard Markneukirchen mass production."

i would say you were spot on Martin with Markneukirchen or at least certainly one of the saxony towns or villages (but i would also say Markneukirchen. the mandolin bears all the characteristics of those whih were mass produced in the 1920's and 30's in the Saxony area.

Many of the builders from the Saxony region came from families with a long history of instrument building (and there were hundreds of them in the region). Most of them around that time (20's 30's)were not only involved in making mandolins but many other String intruments.For example the company called Hess (Klingenthal)made just about every musical instument you could think of, from mandolins, drums, violins, trumpets and loads and loads more.

many of the mandolins from this period were pretty cheap instruments (and as you said mass produced), but some were also good quality. It is not until around the mid 50's that we begin to see a change in the design.. slowly moving away from the italian style to larger instruments with deeper bodies.... now some of the really good mandolin builders begin to emerge.......producing much better quality mandolins and as you know the gradual changes have led to what we call the German mandolin (the likes of what Knorr now produces) with a much "rounder face" and body than the italian "tear drop" shape.

If any of the "cafe goers" ever happen to be in saxony it is well worth a visit to the musical instrument museum in Marknuekirchen. a must for mandolin players.

Anyway.. with regard to the mandolin on ebay that started the discussion.... i would'nt even take it for the price of the postage!(hmm maybe a bit harsh.... enough said.

Best wishes
ian

[brunello97]

Jim,

Kind of a nice appreciation from 16RM to $7000 US. The dollar is weak, yes.

Somehow the adword "billigste" doesn't quite fit into the seller's narrative here.

Mick

[Bob A]

While it doesn't belong here, I can't justify opening a thread for <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/SPARTITO-MUSICA-DUCE-canto-MUSSOLINI-FASCISMO-MANDOLINO_W0QQitemZ190104049086QQihZ009QQcat
egoryZ42459QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this.</a>

It's more than just annoying to see il Duce with reference to mandolin, given how he more or less destroyed the street mandolin culture of Napoli. On the bright side, one is reminded that he, too, has passed.

[Jim Garber]

While it doesn't belong here, I can't justify opening a thread for <a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/SPARTITO-MUSICA-DUCE-canto-MUSSOLINI-FASCISMO-MANDOLINO_W0QQitemZ190104049086QQihZ009QQcat

egoryZ42459QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this.</a>
Well, Bob, he is at least wearing a bowl on his head...

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220105516392) on Ebay UK. Looks good, although a photo of the label would be useful. Two Italian bidders already on the case, the first one I suspect tried to sniff out the reserve.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

"On the bright side, one is reminded that he, too, has passed."

Indeed, B.M. has passed-- much to the world's intestinal (and otherwise) relief. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

The mandolin, on the contrary, lives on. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[brunello97]

... to see il Duce with reference to mandolin, given how he more or less destroyed the street mandolin culture of Napoli...

Bob,
I've had a weird interest in Il Duce ever since I saw Sophia Loren and Marcello Mastroianni in "A Special Day". More so after regular haircuts in his proto-Rossi-an architecture in Imperia. Is it too much of a thread diversion to ask the background on his Neapolitan mando-supression? Any references or resources would be appreciated.
thanks,
Mick

[Neil Gladd]

Is it too much of a thread diversion to ask the background on his Neapolitan mando-supression?
Apparently it was just the opposite, so it was as a backlash against him that the Italian public lost interest in the mandolin. If he had banned them, they might be much more popular today.

P.S. - I'm very tempted to bid on that sheet music, myself.

[Bob A]

Paul Sparks, in "The Classical Mandolin" (Oxford U Press 1995, p 143-4), states that the Fascist govt that ruled in Italy betw 1922 and 1943 fervently believed in modernising the country, imposing an authoritarian work ethic that had serious consequences for popular musical life. In Rome and Naples, streets were cleared of casual performers in the drive against begging and outdoor crime, thus endinga long tradition of outdoor music-making.

He quotes an English traveler lamenting the change. H L Mencken, in one of the volumes of his autobiography, also mentions a trip to Italy and the negative consequences of the Fascist reign.

Neil, you NEED that music. Go for it. It belongs in the archive.

Mick, you ought to read Captain Corelli's Mandolin. My dad read it last summer, and the descriptions of fascism in Italy took him right back to his memories of the 30s and the war years. (He was in Napoli in WWII).

[Neil Gladd]

I'm pretty sure I remember Ugo Orlandi telling me that Mussolini had a mandolin composer ancestor, and when learned that he started forcing mandolin music on people (though not in the streets). After that, the mandolin was tied to Mussolini in the mind of the public. I don't have any written sources for this, though.

[brunello97]

Bob and Neil,

Thanks for the background information. I'd like to find out more about this and whether the association between the instrument and Mussolini continued at all post war. I have read Captain Corelli and appreciated the more mando-centric plotline it had in comparison to the movie. (The ending was just as maddening, however.) I read Bosworth's 'Mussolini's Italy' this winter and while informative was somewhat broad-brushed when it came to cultural issues. I don't think the mandolin ever came up. I guess I should go to the source to get more anecdotal points of view. My friends in Firenze find my interest either kitsch-y or nostalgic. The fisarmonica gets their far greater respect. (!) I'm sure Carlo Aonzo would have some background information to share at some time. So despite the Orly (?) fashion ad campaign tie-in (and Nicholas Cage, I suppose,) I guess this remains an uphill battle. Perhaps just as well.

Mick

[billkilpatrick]

there's also an element of northern reserve to be taken into accout - north of rome, that is - in which people performing in the street are looked on as being eccentric ... or worse. the tarantella, for example is loathed as being foreign to tuscany ... from the (shudder) south.

the fascist angle is very interesting. bearing in mind, my terms of reference are confined to the village i live in and the locals are reticent about talking about the war - i'll see what i can find out.

i see that alison stephens (http://www.alisonstephens.com/) is currently performing a "capt. corelli" program in the u.k. - perhaps she might be able to shed some light on whether the mandolin ever wore a black shirt.

- bill

[etbarbaric]

Hi all,

Neil, yes, I have heard similar stories. To the extent that B.M. had set up mandolin schools, and that the mandolin then suffered by the association after the fact (as if it didn't have troubles enough!)

The ancesstor in question was likely Cesare Mussolini. Tyler and Sparks put him circa 1790 ("The Early Mandolin", pp. 156). The British Library presumably has his "Six New Songs and Six Minuets... adapted for ye guittar & Mandolin".

Eric

[vkioulaphides]

In this, my last digressionary contribution, I must wonder whether said acronymously scatological dictator did not harm the mandolin BOTH ways, i.e. by banning street-musicians in Naples AND trying to "institutionalize" the mandolin in public education. Poor mandolin... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

Curious --and infuriating!-- how dictators get their paws on musical culture. Chronologically parallel to B.M., pre-WWII Greek dictator Ioannes Metaxas had bouzouki-players beaten and thrown into jail, bouzoukis shattered by police (or, more often than not, right-wing paramilitaries), the "dens of sin" where bouzoukis were played shuttered, all in the spirit of "cleansing society". A dubious goal to begin with, and carried out by yet more dubious means.

Fortunately, no one of course blamed the bouzouki, post-WWII, for the persecution it had suffered under Metaxas' heavy hand. To his minimal credit, he had not tried to introduce its teaching to Greek conservatories. But that, again, was only because he was a boorish oaf, who cared nothing for the arts altogether. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

A dismal total...

But "that was then, this is now". Back to our regular programming. Any notables, lately? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[billkilpatrick]

after a quick spin round the piazza ...

consensus is that lack of interest in mandolins is due more to a north/south divide than a political association - south favoring it as an instrument for "musica popolare" as opposed to the accordian in the north.

of course the "i-pod" has blown all instruments off the map. in comparison to 100 years ago, we - like every other country, i imagine - have become listeners, not participants.

[Bob A]

Accordion v Mandolin. Hard to evaluate this one. Can the opinion of those who prefer the Stomach Steinway be taken seriously? Are we, or the Italian people, in serious trouble if they are making popular music with such a device?

Before crowds of enraged accordionists assemble with trembling bellows and bellows of rage, I include the disclaimer: I am in a position to diss, having studied the instrument for several years myself. Under protest, I hasten to add.

[vkioulaphides]

"in comparison to 100 years ago, we - like every other country, i imagine - have become listeners, not participants."

True. Yet, this is changing: in the context of our post-modern, post-industrial, post-materialist current state of affairs, I see the mandolin as the PERFECT ingredient of a happy life! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Now, if you care for me to tranlsate what I just said... don't dare me! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Cheers,

Victor

[Jim Garber]

Not exactly a mandolin but a painting of an interesting one. Too bad we can't see the back.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Here is a detail. Any one care to guess what music she has on her stand? Looks like one of the hits of the day.

Jim

[billkilpatrick]

i'd guess that's a birds quill she's using for a pick.

is that an anchor hanging around her neck?

her left hand is enormous!

[Neil Gladd]

her left hand is enormous!
Her left hand? What about her hair!!!

[brunello97]

Accordion v Mandolin......
Before crowds of enraged accordionists assemble with trembling bellows and bellows of rage, I include the disclaimer: I am in a position to diss, having studied the instrument for several years myself. Under protest, I hasten to add.

Ah, Bob, why must it be an 'either-or'? I've been wheezing on the squeeze box as a happy (for me, if not my neighbors) bit of cross-training so to speak.

Why can't we all just get along.....

Here's a web radio station that gives it a try, Musica Italiana

http://www.live365.com/stations/vineviz

At least for a while longer.

Mick

[JeffD]

The most impressive thing about her is that she is playing without planting!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[JeffD]

The woman is playing an instrument similar enough to this one, pictured in the Mandolins in Visual Art thread.

[JeffD]

Or maybe Henry meant to post it here in the first place.

[Martin Jonas]

Vinaccia (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220105516392) on Ebay UK. Looks good, although a photo of the label would be useful. Two Italian bidders already on the case, the first one I suspect tried to sniff out the reserve.
An hour to go, £312. That would be quite some catch (asuming structural integrity). Maybe there are some snipers lined up.

Martin

[billkilpatrick]

her left hand is enormous!
Her left hand? What about her hair!!!
what about her hair? i see nothing unusual in her hair ... you honky hairist!

[Henry Girvan]

Hello,

I posted the photo of the Vinaccia Mandolin to the "Mandolins in Visual Art" thread because a painting on that thread had a mandolin misattributed as a Theorbo (a type of Bass-Lute)and I wanted to show a photo of the actual instrument.

If you would like to see the back of the instrument.

[Henry Girvan]

When I was at the last "Mandolin Syposium" in Trossingen I took this photo of a group of mandolins.

[Jim Garber]

When I was at the last "Mandolin Syposium" in Trossingen I took this photo of a group of mandolins.
Henry:
Are any of those originals? If they are copies, who made them?

Jim

[Henry Girvan]

Hello Jim,

In terms of the three sitting on the chairs, the one in the middle is original repaired by Alfred Woll and I think I am right in saying that he made the other two.

[Jim Garber]

It must be this one from 1760:
http://www.woll-mandolinen.de/grafik/vin2_01.jpg

Jim

[JeffD]

Just beautiful.

[Jim Garber]

Daniel Larson (http://www.daniellarson.com/mandolins/baroque_mandolin/neo.htm) is another contemporary maker of these Baroque style mandolins.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I think the one that Jim posted might be the one on the right in Henry's photo (or possibly its corresponding original) -- the other two are subtly different in decoration.

BTW, that Ebay Vinaccia went for £560 to Italy. Pretty low price, unless there are structural issues with it. It's a plainish model, but not quite entry level.

Martin

[brunello97]

I don't know if I've ever seen a Washburn 12 string, but I know I've never seen one with tuners arranged like this:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....ddle:us (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330115215128&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us)

I'm going to request some detail photos from the seller. Perhaps someone can shed some light.

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

How utterly bizarre. Any chance that the central row of tuners was retrofitted?

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

This (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190109465295) one looks rather nice. #Never heard of Fratelli Haesermann in Naples, but it has fluted ribs and a nicely-engraved tuner plate and looks pretty neatly made. #Some of the Calaces of the period look similar, and it's more pleasant than the D-hole ones. #Gold-metallic lining paper and an off-beat variant on the Vinaccia headstock cutout.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

How utterly bizarre. Any chance that the central row of tuners was retrofitted?

Martin
Highly likely that it was retrofitted. Strange. L&H did make 12 strings but not under the Washburn brand AFAIK.

Jim

[tbilleci]

FA: Gabriele Panidini liuto cantabile

Ebay no. 290114451729

Good luck!

[Jim Garber]

Welcome, Todd, to our little corner of the Cafe. I am sorry you couldn't make it to the Aonzo workshop.

Is this your Pandini liuto?

In any case, here is the direct link (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=290114451729).

Jim

[trebleclef528]

I've never heard of Hasermann either but I did find a site where there is a Hasermann underrestoration (http://8strings.com/Hasermann.htm)
Ian

[vkioulaphides]

Considering the... *ekhm*... language barrier, I would assume this is a Kasermann, perhaps?

[Martin Jonas]

Although there was indeed a reasonably well-known maker called Kasermann, both the Japanese site linked by Ian and the Ebay auction linked by me in the post he's responded to have good photos of the labels of these mandolins, and they clearly say "Fratelli Häsermann, Napoli" (unambiguously with H, and complete with umlaut, so clearly a transposed German name, not unlike Embergher).

By coincidence, here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190109934134) is another current Ebay auction for a Fratelli Häsermann. This one looks identical to my (rather undistinguished) Fratelli Ferrari.

By comparison, here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=300101160793) is a recent Ebay auction for a Giovanni Kasermann (unequivocally with K, and spelled without umlaut on the brand mark and with umlaut on the label). Intriguingly, the address is the same: Via Carbonara, 112. So, looks like Häsermann changed his name to Käsermann (or Kasermann), possibly because the Italians can't pronounce an aspirated H.

The Kasermann went for quite a lot of money, by the way, even though it's fairly plain. This may mean that the two instruments with the older Häsermann spelling could be a very good deal -- the very fancy fluted one on Ebay Germany is still very much cheaper than the plain Kasermann and could be a real steal. Although not quite as much a steal as the lowball bid I've just tried and which pushed the highest bid from 121 Euro to 164 Euro.

Martin

[vkioulaphides]

Trouble is, Martin, I don't 'ave any money for any of these beauties, so I can't as easily kave in to temptation. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Martin Jonas]

For anybody in Europe keen to try a Lyon & Healy bowlback, here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260114390311) is a bottom-of-the-range American Conservatory which looks in decent condition and is at a ludicrous 20 Pounds with under three hours to go.

Given the extreme rarity of US bowlbacks on this side of the Atlantic, this may well be worth checking out.

Another rarity here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170109044219): a very old f-hole flatback with a bowlback-like body outline.

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160113450774) is an Angara & d'Isanto. Soundboard is a bit dirty, and is coming loose from the bowl, so this may need some attention.

Finally,

here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220107925188) is a plain but apparently good condition maple-bowl Salsedo. Starting bid might be a bit optimistic, though.

Martin

[brunello97]

Thanks, Martin.

I'd be interested in hearing other's views on how some of these budget L+Hs perform viz the many Italian models of similar range: I'm guessing Stridente, Lanfranco, etc. etc. and the many many dealers out of Napoli. #The one you posted looks to be in fairly good condition and certainly not from the bottom of the L+H barrel-maybe similar to the Washburn 125-which is a decent mandolin. The winner got it for 28L, a good price.

Which brings up another question: #I'd be interested in bidding on the Angara, but for 160$ shipping, I guess I should consider stopping in London on my way back from holiday and save on shipping costs. #I've sent mandolins to the UK, France and Switzerland and it never cost above $30 US. Even with the weak dollar something seems amiss. No wonder the manchego I crave is so expensive! (Yet I can get a nice Sicilian wine to go with it for $3.99.)

Mick

[Fliss]

here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=220107925188) is a plain but apparently good condition maple-bowl Salsedo. #Starting bid might be a bit optimistic, though.
That's the same one that was on recently with a Buy-It-Now of £525 and no takers!

Fliss

[Jim Garber]

This may mean that the two instruments with the older Häsermann spelling could be a very good deal -- the very fancy fluted one on Ebay Germany is still very much cheaper than the plain Kasermann and could be a real steal. Although not quite as much a steal as the lowball bid I've just tried and which pushed the highest bid from 121 Euro to 164 Euro.
Hmmmm... this Häsermann went for quite a bit: €2810. It looks like it is in good shape thos the seller says there are a few cracks. Still this would be similar to what a good Calace would go for. I think Kasermanns are pretty well-respected.

Is there some trend of respected Italian mandolin makers with germanic surnames?

Jim

[brunello97]

[quote=martinjonas,May 09 2007, 17:30]

Hmmmm... this Häsermann went for quite a bit: €2810. It looks like it is in good shape thos the seller says there are a few cracks. Still this would be similar to what a good Calace would go for. I think Kasermanns are pretty well-respected.




Yes, Martin's bid seems to have blown the whole auction wide open.

Mick

[Bob A]

The Salsedo in question seems from the photos to be quite similar to the one I bought from an Italian dealer a few years ago. Mine is an odd instrument, with some features that lead me to believe it was at least partially the work of a relatively unskilled hand (such things as the improper placement of the last fret, and the shaping of the peghead in such a way as to cause the uppermost strings to rub against lower tuning posts) with attributes such as the elegantly shaped bowl, with fairly fancy wood, and of course the overall lightness and The Sound. Mine ran near $900 with shipping etc, and for all its faults is one of my favorites. Still, a lot of money for what it is.

By way of comnparison, I obtained another Salsedo from ebay UK a while later for half what I paid for the first one. The second is a bit fancier, has a rosewood bowl, and, sadly, had the top slathered with varnish by a fool with a paintbrush. Still, a decent instrument which will be improved once I find someone to de-finish the top. Both were dated 1895.

[Bill Snyder]

I know that this (http://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=2725704) is not a bowlback but I thought someone here might be interested in it (even if just to see it) and I did not think it warranted its own thread.

[Jim Garber]

I know that this (http://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=2725704) is not a bowlback but I thought someone here might be interested in it (even if just to see it) and I did not think it warranted its own thread.
It looks like a budget model Portuguese mandolin, i.e., without the "peacock" tuners. It even has a 12 string tailpiece from the larger guitarra. I haven't a clue what that ornamental piece of carved wood is. I can't imagine that it is a type of bridge.

Interesting.

Bill, are you going for it?

Jim

[Bill Snyder]

Bill, are you going for it?

Jim
NO!

[Jim Garber]

I had to refresh the Post a Picture... (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185;st=400;r=1;&#entry523237) thread so felt obligated to buy yet another bowlback. This one is labelled Alfonso Moretti and details are on that thread.

Jim

[Fliss]

Jim, I hate to break it to you but you didn't have to go to such lengths - I was just about to add photos of my Calace to that thread, now that I've got it back from the luthier!

Still, who needs an excuse for a new mandolin? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Fliss

[Jim Garber]

I thought it was my duty as a good Cafe member and a charter member of the Loyal Order of the Bowl (LOOB) to make sure that there were new entries on that thread.

Jim

[Fliss]

This De Meglio looks in fairly good condition, but not perfect, and the starting bid seems high:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws....ddle:uk (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230129388868&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk)

No, I'm not tempted, before anyone asks http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Fliss

[Fliss]

Not that I'm obsessed with De Meglios, but here's another one at a much lower starting bid.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws....ddle:uk (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190114581222&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:uk)

And there's also a Rinaldi De Meglio Clone:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique....iewItem (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Antique-Mandolin_W0QQitemZ170113493759QQihZ007QQcategoryZ1 0179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem)

Fliss

[jasona]

That first one's in pretty rough shape.

[brunello97]

This bowlback has an interesting label: Jacobelli Fratelli, NY

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....=1&rd=1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBI%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320115608709&rd=1&rd=1)

Any background or references on these brothers?

Interesting brass(?) neck brace. It looks pretty fancy for a mend, pretty curious for original equipment.

Mick

[Pete UK]

Hi guys
I've been asked by a non-musical friend to help him sell a Ceccherini bowlback dated 1914. It's identical to the one being shown on http://sinierderidder.free.fr/gb/maingb.html at the moment, except that it has 10 strings (triple A and E). I've done a bit of delving on the net and found Ceccherinis valued anywhere between $200 and $8000. I've no idea where to place this one between these margins though, so thought I'd consult the experts. Condition excellent, with original hard leather case etc. Any suggestions?
Thanks
Pete

[brunello97]

Hi Pete,
I'll give you 215$ cash for it. UK? I'll come over and pick it up.
Mick

[Pete UK]

Thanks for the offer Mick, but I've got a local buyer interested - just wanted an idea of what to ask. I've just found out that the guy on the website I mentioned above is asking 1300 euros for it. Maybe somewhere between your price and his then!?
Pete

[Jim Garber]

Pete:
What is esp unusual is the 10 string version. I wonder if the stringing was the way you described or if possibly it was strung with 5 courses.

I believe that Martin has a 10 string but I can't recall if it is a Ceccherini or a Demeglio. Martin?

Does yours have the double soundboarded top?

BTW Sinier's has been there for years as are others they have there. I think they are just waiting for the market to catch up to their prices.

I think you are right that your price should be somewhere in there between the two extremes. If it is in excellent condition with no further work needed then you can charge, to be fair, I would say around £250-300 (I figure we can speak in multiple currencies here to make it even more confusing) or $500-600 or so. If it needs work to make it playable, then less.

I doubt BTW that the ten string configuration as it is makes it more desirable. BTW how wide is the neck at the nut area?

BTW the Sinier one is a slightly fancier model than most.
http://sinierderidder.free.fr/images/mandolines/geccherini1.jpg

But that one is not as fancy as the one at Vintage Instruments (Philadelphia) -- the one for $8000:
http://www.vintage-instruments.com/photos/26598z.jpg

Jim

[Fliss]

Martin's 10 string is a Ceccherini, there are some photos of it, alongside his 8-string Ceccherini, on page 15 of the "Post a picture of your bowlback" thread

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....;st=350 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185;st=350)

Does your friend's mandolin look like this, Pete?

Fliss

[Pete UK]

Hi - and Fliss, thanks for the link to the info and photos of Martin's 10 string Ceccherini. They are virtually identical. All the inlay patterns and designs are exactly the same. Mine has some slightly worn lettering below the string hooks, over which someone has pencilled 30/10/14 - presumably its birthdate. That would place it as late Art Nouveau I guess. The serial number on this one is 2415 - so, presumably a bit later than Martin's. This one also has what looks like an improvised anchor holding the tailpiece. It also has a small round stud with a circular inlay on the left hand end of the bridge, and a mark where there clearly used to be one at the right hand side. The only other difference that I can see is that it is considerably lighter in colour, with some of the varnish worn away at the front. No other defects to my non-expert eyes.
Jim - to answer your specific questions:
It must have always been configured this way as the string hooks and tail pin arrangement shows.
Yes it's a double top, and the neck is 3cm at the nut.
Would it be ungentlemanly to enquire how much Martin paid for his on ebay??
Thanks for your help in researching this one, guys.
Pete

[Martin Jonas]

Hi Pete,

Interesting to see that there's another of these 10-stringers. I love Ceccherini bowlbacks, and own three of them. The ten-stringer was a blatant piece of opportunism, though: it came up on Ebay with a ludicrously low Buy-It-Now, and even though I didn't need another one I thought I'd better grab it before they realise what they had. So, my Ebay price won't help you much to establish fair market rate. As this one is really surplus to requirements, I'm actually thinking of selling mine, too -- it's a lovely instrument, but I have too many bowlbacks and too many Ceccherinis. Fair market value is difficult, but I'd put these around 350 to 500 Pounds, depending on condition. I'd agree with Jim that the 10-string version doesn't add value over the 8-string; indeed I think it will work best if converted to an 8-string, which is what I've done with mine. The nut width on these is almost identical to Ceccherini's normal 8-string nut, so there won't be any playability issues arising from the conversion. The neck on the 10-string is sturdier than on the 8-string, in order to withstand the higher tension, but it's still more slender than, say, a de Meglio neck.

Incidentally, there should not be any varnish on the soundboard: these were originally left unfinished. One of my Ceccherinis is still very very blonde, as is the one at Sinier de Ridder (although I suspect that one of having been sanded or otherwise cleaned up, which I wouldn't do). The other two have clearly been exposed to natural light much more and have darkened considerably. That's perfectly normal for an unfinished instruments, although it does give a slightly uneven colouring depending on light exposure, so that the spruce is still very light underneath the bridge and the tailpiece cover. If yours has been refinished at some stage, that will detract slightly from the value.

Mine is a double top, too, as are almost all other Ceccherinis (I own the only exception I have ever seen).

Martin

[Bill Snyder]

I suppose I could do a search on them but I am going to take the lazy way out and ask if Favilla Bros. instruments were well made. I am bidding on this one (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=011&sspagename=STRK%3AMEBI%3AIT&viewitem=&item=320113913179&rd=1&rd=1) on ebay. I know that it is rather plain but the copy says it is in playable condition (I know ad copy can say anything) and if I can get it for a total of $40 my wife might not be too upset that I purchased another instrument. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Eugene]

Favilla was pretty prolific and made decent working-class instruments, especially for the B&J house brand. I like the maple and simple butterfly on the eBay piece. Of course, ask the seller a heap of specific questions about condition (the assetion of playable is promising if the seller actually knows how to assess that). Click here. (http://www.catfish1952.com/favilla.html)

[Eugene]

PS: I don't like the looks of the bridge and suspect a replacement. If so, consider re-replacement. Its position is a little far back onto the cant too. That could be a concern.

[Jim Garber]

and if I can get it for a total of $40 my wife might not be too upset that I purchased another instrument. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Phew!!! Another marriage saved.

Jim

[Bill Snyder]

Jim it is not so much the money, because I have not spent much on any of my insturments but our closet is getting a bit full. I know it pales in comparison to what many of you collectors have, but if my mental tally is correct I have a dozen fretted instruments and pieces/parts and starts of a few others in there.

[Jim Garber]

It's about time... it's about space...

Boy do I know about all that! As Bob A (I think) has noted: Bowlbacks are like potato chips. In fact I think I may very well have one that is made of potato chips.

Jim

[brunello97]

Bill,

I'll fess up to landing the Favilla bowl. I thought it would stay under the radar, but it seems a couple folks bid it up over your $40 spousal-spatial continuum. I do like their instruments, and as Eugene said, maple bowls in particular. I've shared some correspondence with Tom Favilla. He seems like a nice man. I still have a lot of family out on Long Island. Not the GreatLakesRim I usually troll but my childhood stomping grounds nonetheless. Blood still is thicker than mud.

I'm still in a mando-shedding mode, but thought I'd like to check this one out. #Eugene's observation on the bridge position is duly noted. Fingers crossed. I'll post some pictures when it comes in.

Mick

[Bill Snyder]

When I posted the link I knew there was always the possibility that I was pointing the instrument out to someone that might overbid me.
As far as spousal approval I tend to purchase or bid on instruments then tell my wife.
She has never gotten mad just made comments about not needing anymore instruments until I get rid of some.
The only reason she doesn't mind when I start to build one is the potential of selling it. So far that hasn't happened, but then I haven't finished very many (and none bowlbacks).

[Jim Garber]

Start building and buying more bowlbacks, Bill. Woman go crazy over them. My wife insists that I buy every one I see. Kidding, of course... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Jim of the Bulging Closet Society

[brunello97]

Well, Bill, FWIW I had eyeballed the Favilla in advance of your post. I'm usually not an early bidder on ebay though sometimes I'll tag something with a low bid just to keep it in my memory. (I've worked through end times and forgotten a lot of nice ebay deals.) I usually wait a bit to see how things are going. For some reason noone was bidding on that Favilla up until the last day. I think maybe the obscure ad language worked against the seller.

My wife gives me a bit of a leash, as long as the net inflow and outflow roughly balance. (In a pinch, I just have to bring up her accordion fixation. Is there an AAS?) Just the same, I know that competitive bidding amongst the Loyal Brotherhood is ultimatley not in all or our best interest. The current obscuration of bidder identity by ebay confounds things abit. We Texans are supposedly/justifiably proud of our dancing. My apologies for inadvertently stepping on any toes.

Mick

[brunello97]

Here's what looks like a fairly nice L+H.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250118513566

is RWB a Washburn logo?

I haven't seen closed tuners like this on an old bowlback:



Mick

[Eugene]

I doubt that was built by Lyon & Healy. I don't think that disc was necessarily original to the mandolin; I cant quite tell on what it's perched. That style tuner isn't uncommon to American bowlbacks. It seems to me I've seen most on Weymanns.

[Jim Garber]

I have one other mandolin jpeg marked with that RWB monogram but it is on a disc attached to the peghead. The tuners are different tho.
The only thing I can think of is Rudolph Wurlitzer Company but I can't figure out whether the "B" makes any sense.

Jim

[brunello97]

Jim,

You know I was thinking Wurlitzer after I posted the question. They were retailers, as I understand, and not fabricators. Is that correct?

You're right, Eugene, not much looks L+H on further inspection. I'm familiar with these type tuners on Weymanns, which I think are very handsome. The closed ones I haven;t seen. Can you post a picture? #

Thanks,

Mikc

[Eugene]

Unfortunately, I don't have a picture, and I'm working from a tired old memory in trying to pin these on later Weymanns.

Yes, Wurlitzer was a retailer, one with a house brand that represented diverse makers. I think the disc logo wasn't meant to be read sequentially as "RWB", but that the W is central to emphasize the family name, something like RWB. The namesake was "Rudolph B. Wurlitzer."

[Martin Jonas]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270120392143) is a Loveri, with only a few hours to go. #Pretty basic, though, and it looks much cruder than most Loveris I've seen. #I suspect it's earlier.

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280115657063) is another one of the Calace-esque Puglisis, this one dated 1913.

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=110130448079) is another peculiar job lot of instruments. #Anybody for getting 34 fiddles along with a couple of bowlbacks?

Here (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140120543605) is another oddity: a Radionella sort-of-bowlback with f-holes and a peculiar radio-speaker-like cone in the centre.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

This Weymann bowlback model 18 has the aluminum buttons but different gears than the original RWB that Mick posted. I have never seen a Weymann with those types of covered tuners.

Jim

[trebleclef528]

QUOTE:"have one other mandolin jpeg marked with that RWB monogram but it is on a disc attached to the peghead. The tuners are different tho.
The only thing I can think of is Rudolph Wurlitzer Company but I can't figure out whether the "B" makes any sense.

Jim "

RWB definately is (or at least was) the registered trade mark of the Rudolph Wurlitzer Company (now a subsiduary of the Gibson Corporation).. not quite sure what the B represents.

[brunello97]

Here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270120392143) is a Loveri, with only a few hours to go. #Pretty basic, though, and it looks much cruder than most Loveris I've seen. #I suspect it's earlier.
However crude, this Loveri has that no-frills Italian bowlback look that I like. Great Form + Nice Wood. Almost organic in a FLW kind of way. Beautiful typesetting on the label as well.

Martin, what do you know of their quality?

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Almost organic in a FLW kind of way.
it took me awhile... I just connected that Mick is an architect and FLW is Frank Lloyd Wright. Where are the cantilevers??

Jim

[brunello97]

Jim,
Sorry to be so wonkish. Wright wrote quite astutely on the relationships between material and form. His notion of 'organic' had little to do with objects (or buildings) looking literally like organisms. (viz the Melonius Q poire-shaped units...which I love btw) I'm sure he would have appreciated the slight recurve at the Embergher body/neck joint, for instance.
Mick

[Martin Jonas]

I had a Loveri passing through my hands a couple of years ago: I bought it from Ebay for a (temporary, as it turned out) member of our ensemble. There are photos on page 11 of the bowlbacks photos thread here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185;st=250). This was a very nice instrument indeed, with a snakehead headstock, ebony tuner buttons and (not visible in the photos) two peculiar cutouts either side of the tailpiece, which I dubbed "exhaust vents". Very fine-grained spruce, and a lovely tone. I particularly liked the violin-like binding around the soundboard.

Martin

[Bob A]

There seems to be two different styles of Loveri instruments. THere's the type with the De Meglio-style scratchplate, and the more traditional type of guard that is set into the top. I have not had hands on either, alas. It seems to me that the former is the type most often met with in the UK.

[brunello97]

I nice looking Bruno bowl with fluted back. I few unfortunate cracks here and there, but a nice looking instrument. Any thoughts on the maker?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....ddle:us (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230134392501&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us)

Mick

[Eugene]

I've been trying to figure out who built those Bruno mandolins with the way-uppy scratch plate for some time. I believe Neil's Fischer (was it a Fischer, Neil? I think I'm remebering correctly) is similar.

[Jim Garber]

That Bruno has been on eBay for a few months now, originally asking $650 for a few rounds. The seller finally lowered the price some. It is a nice looking one but will take some restoration.

BTW the seller is also the one with that $8000 Ceccherini and those outrageous lyre mandolins being offered at Vintage Instruments (http://www.vintage-instruments.com/navigate/catidx7.htm) in Philadelphia. I have been meaning to get down there for a tryout one of these days. I don't think they will rush off but you never know.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

The seller of this German mandolin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280119113264&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1) will not give up, even tho I had many email msgs explaining that this was a lowend instrument. Oh well.

Jim

[Neil Gladd]

I've been trying to figure out who built those Bruno mandolins with the way-uppy scratch plate for some time. I believe Neil's Fischer (was it a Fischer, Neil? I think I'm remebering correctly) is similar.
Mine is an O. Pagani & Bro., and it does have the same scratch-plate, with a similar, but less elaborate, inlay. (You were close, but it was a different publisher.)

It doesn't have the power of my Seiffert, but I like the tone much better, and it has amazing sustain.

[brunello97]

Eugene,

Can you translate "way-uppy"?

Thanks,

Mick

[Neil Gladd]

I'm pretty sure he meant that it goes way up around the sound hole.

[Eugene]

Mine is an O. Pagani & Bro., and it does have the same scratch-plate, with a similar, but less elaborate, inlay. (You were close, but it was a different publisher.)
Consarn it! #I remembered "house brand, New York-based publisher" and that obviously (and erroneously) translated to Fischer.

[Eugene]

I'm pretty sure he meant that it goes way up around the sound hole.
Yes indeedy.

[Jim Garber]

I've been trying to figure out who built those Bruno mandolins with the way-uppy scratch plate for some time.
My theory is that these mandolins were built by one of the larger factories in the New York area, either Luigi Ricca or Galiano. According to Mike Holmes:

Luigi Ricca was a mandolin and guitar manufacturer in New York City from circa 1886 to 1895 when he moved to Brooklyn. In May, 1898 he moved his factory and most of his 200 employees to New Orange, NJ where he continued in business into the new century.

I have seen a handful of Ricca mandolin (own 2.5 of them -- two in good shape and one carcass). If he had 200 employees, no doubt that his factory must have made more than the ones with his label. I have seen many more with Galiano labels. Of course there were other makers like Oscar Schmidt or Favilla.

Jim

[brunello97]

Jim,

Have you posted pictues of your Riccas? I would love to see them. I had one for awhile and thought very highly of the quality of work. It was very pretty. I often wondered about the 200 employee quote. That is a lot of folks to keep busy. You'd think there would be more instruments around. Their printed catalog has a pretty extensive line of instruments and is quite a graphic commitment. I wonder if they took in jobs as well to keep all those folks employed.

BTW, my Galiano has a similar way-uppy scratchplate (though a suspiciously L+H looking headstock.) The Favilla bowl I just bought has a similar scratchplate as well. I'll post some pictures of that once I get the top mended--there was a small crack.

Strangely enough, right now this thread probably contains the most comprehensive collection of information on American bowlbacks (as well as many, many others.) I would love to have it all in .pdf format, given some miracle of collation.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Rather than try to find the pics on other threads...
I finally found a tp cover for the one on the left. According to my catalogs these are style 4.5 and 4 (l to r).

Jim

[Eugene]

I've been trying to figure out who built those Bruno mandolins with the way-uppy scratch plate for some time.
My theory is that these mandolins were built by one of the larger factories in the New York area, either Luigi Ricca or Galiano.
I believe the same, at least regarding a commission from a NY shop for the Bruno house brand, but I've never seen a labeled Ricca or Galiano that carried that style of scratchplate or similar decor to the Bruno pieces.

[brunello97]

Here is my Galiano, with its way-uppity. It is an enjoyable bowl to play. The headstock looks very Washburn-ish to me. It has the same floral-etched tuner covers as the Bruno above. Parts is Parts, I guess, but it confounds some of the detectivity.

Thanks for posting the Riccas, Jim. I like the 'landing spaceship' inlay on the fretboard. Do you play these much?

Some guys spend Sundays talking about the Pistons or the SF Giants.....

Mick

[Fliss]

I don't know if it counts as a bowlback of note, but I've just updated the "post a picture of your bowlback" thread with some pictures of a bowlback, currently in my possession, built by Achille Lanfranco e Figlio -

http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin....;st=400 (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=15;t=14185;st=400)

I'd be very interested in anything anyone can tell me about Lanfranco. This one was labelled "Maidstone" over the original Lanfranco label, but seems a nice, well-built instrument.

Fliss

[brunello97]

Fliss, I have a Lanfranco, which bears a striking resemblance to the DeMureda/Lazarus the resurrection of which Dave Hyndes documented here. I do see them pass by along the Ebay from time to time. I have a hunch they are fairly modest instruments-though I have seen a few nice ones under their labels. I'm fond of mine.

Given this range and similarity to other medium quality Italian bowls, I've long wonder whether they were a sales outfit or actual manufacturers.

I've often wondered what Achilles Lanfranco's son's name was. Patroclus? Hector? Ulysses?

Mick

[etbarbaric]

Hi all,


I believe the same, at least regarding a commission from a NY shop for the Bruno house brand, but I've never seen a labeled Ricca or Galiano that carried that style of scratchplate or similar decor to the Bruno pieces.

I seem to remember that Angelo Mannello's shop made instruments for Bruno. There was conversation to that effect some time back on this forum. I'll look through the Met's book to see if that was the source of the reference.

Eric

[Jim Garber]

I seem to remember that Angelo Mannello's shop made instruments for Bruno. There was conversation to that effect some time back on this forum. I'll look through the Met's book to see if that was the source of the reference.
Eric:
You are correct that Lawrence Libin says that Mannello made mandolins for Bruno's shop for "exclusive resale." I guess that means that Bruno was the sole resaler for mannello's mandolins. Does that also mean that all mandolins sold by Bruno were made by Mannello or did they also engage the services of other manufacturers?

OTOH: I have never seen a Mannello-labelled mandolin with that oddball Bruno-style scratchplate.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

"Mandolone a quattro corde" circa 1900 (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=23660&query=retrieval) in the classifieds.

Is this actually a mandocello or mandola (octave mandolin for us over in the uS)?

http://www.mandolincafe.com/classifieds/upload/23660.jpg


Jim

[Jim Garber]

Well, it shows you how good my memory is. We discussed this with the owner in the fall of 2003 right here. Alex came up with the ID:

The instrument shown here by you is a “Mandolone a quatro corde” made around 1900 by one of the luthiers of the famous Neapolitan Vinaccia family.

Since the measurements - it's overall length is 41 inches = 104,14 cm; it´s width 14.25 inches = 36,195 cm and it´s scale length is 24 inches = 60,96 cm - are given, it can be compared with a Mandoloncello (Mandocello) which has a similar scale length that can vary from ± 60 up to 68 cm.

The tuning of your instrument is - according again to it´s scale length - most likely that of a Mandoloncello: CC - GG - dd - aa. The only difference is that it is single strung: C - G - d - a.

The “Mandolone a quatro corde” was created by Pasquale Vinaccia (1806-±1899) in the last decennium of the 19th century to be used in mandolin orchestras to intensify the volume of the Mandoloncello. And more in particular to strengthen the ´weak´ sound of the 3rd and 4th string-pair of that instrument.

The “Mandolone a quatro corde” is played with a plectrum and strung with metal (bronze) round-wound strings with a steel inner kern.

Like most of the Vinaccia Bass mandolins - the Mandolone strung with 6 [or 8] double strings, the Mandoloncello, the Liuto cantabile and the Mandolone a quatro corde - they are smaller in size when compared with (later) examples made by for instance Embergher, Monzino and Calace.

Because it clearly shows the typical workmanship of the Vinaccias I believe that this particular example comes from either the workshop of Pasquale and/or his sons Achille and Gennaro or - and I tend to think this with more certainty because of some specific caracteristics - from the atelier of Giuseppe Vinaccia.

Giuseppe Vinaccia (act. 1893-after 1914) worked first with his father Gaetano II Vinaccia in the latter´s workshop at Corso Vittorio Emmanuele 446 and later (on his own) first at Via Mancinelli 45 and later at Salita Arenella n. 66.
There is no evidence that he worked together with- or for the other members of the Vinaccia family, like for instance with (his nephews?) Gennaro and Achille who were both the sons of the great Pasquale Vinaccia.

Once again I think this is a very fine, rare and important original Bass mandolin.
Take good care of her!
Thank you Jim, for bringing this under my attention.


Best,

Alex.


PS. Sometimes the Mandolone is described as an instrument with a scale length of about 120 cm. This however refers to a somewhat later developed 4-string bass mandolin that was named (and should be named) as a: “Mandolone moderno” (this type was also made with double strings).

One should also not become confused with the “Mandolbasso”; this type has a scale length of about 93 cm, is played with a plectrum, mostly double strung and tuned G - D - A - e.

What is esp interesting about this one is that it only has 4 strings. I could not quite tell from the photo since it was so dark.

Jim

[etbarbaric]

Hi Jim,

Yes, that's what I thought I remembered (now, why can't I remember where I put my keys and glasses?) :-)

"Exclusive resale" would seem to imply resale of Mannello labeled instruments. On the other hand, Libben (I think) also credits Mannello as having a rather large shop... something in advance of 75 people, if I recall. I believe he brought them over to America from his home town in Italy. I'm not sure how long that shop lasted, but the number of surviving labeled Mannellos would seem to be rather small for such a large staff. I have always assumed that they were making pedestrian instruments destined for other labels... Just a guess, though, nothing more.

... and of course, both Mannello and Bruno were in New York, so the Mannello shop is at least a possiblity as a job shop for Bruno.

Eric

ps - As for "exclusive resale", in my research I have found several of the over-the-top presentation-quality Mannellos (akin to those in the Met) bearing someone elses label pasted over that of Mannello. So clearly even his top-end stuff was sold without his name attached... though one wonders if he knew. I find this a little sad, given what clearly went into these amazing instruments.

[brunello97]

Here is a photo of Angelo Manello and some of his work. What reference from Lawrence Libin are y'all referring to? I found this in a MetMoA catalog on JSTOR. Probably old news to you bloodhounds....

Mick

[Eugene]

Libin, Laurence. 1985. American Musical Instruments in The Metropolitan Museum of Art. W.W. Norton.

[brunello97]

Thanks, Eugene, it looks like a nice book. They have it here the music library. I found a budget copy on Amazon.

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

Here's something truly rare: a Monzino (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=190117864584) styled like a de Meglio or a Ceccherini. Looks in pretty good shape, too.

Another rarity: here (http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250120803256) is the first time I've seen a label say "allievi di de Meglio". Unsurprisingly, this is also a de Meglio-esque style, although not nearly as slavishly copied as many others.

This (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150127137172) should be interesting to watch: a 1913 Embergher No. 1 orchestral model. That tailpiece is presumably non-original, isn't it? The seller says it has been in his family since 1913 and is unrestored. There seems to be a crack in the photos, so I would think some work is needed.

Martin

[brunello97]

Thanks, Martin, for posting these. I think I'm going to launch a bid or two on the Monzino. It is a nice looking mandolin to my eye.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

The Monzino does look interesting, tho hard to tell what the actual condition is. Known maker selling in the Uk will prob go for a decent price. Good luck, Mick.

I have one other Romito & Carbone but that one resembles the tipo 1a Demeglio very closely. Maybe this one is more modern?

As for the Embergher, yes the tailpiece looks wrong and probably made in Germany. The headstock shape looks a little different from the std also. I looked all thru Ralf and Barry's book and all the orch headstocks have those slight lobes. This one doesn't.

http://i1.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/a1/b8/e0b7_12.JPG

Jim

[Bob A]

I like the look of the Monzino; sleek in its own way, and absent the slots cut into the bowl. Give it a good run, Mick. (Let us know if you're pulling out).

Embergher's over 1500 euros already, with a long time to run. SOMEone's a believer.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Jim,


Wrong bridge type, but nevertheless I thought this might be of some interest to you:

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.it/Mandolino-a-doghe-scanalate_W0QQitemZ280118351764QQihZ018QQcategoryZ 10179QQssPageNameZWDVW

QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to view the Italian Ebay Webpage.</a>


Alex

[Jim Garber]

Yes, that is a fancier version by the same maker of mine.

You have an excellent memory, Alex.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi,


<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Embergher-Roma-Mandoline-Korpus-defekt_W0QQitemZ280120397651QQihZ018QQcategoryZ215 9
1QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to see a very unhappy Roman lady....</a> http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif


Alex

[Jim Garber]

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Antike-Embergher-Roma-Mandoline-Korpus-defekt_W0QQitemZ280120397651QQihZ018QQcategoryZ215 9



1QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to see a very unhappy Roman lady....</a> http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif
Ah, nice and airconditioned for those summer months. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif In any case, I bet it goes for over €100.

In the meantime, not bowlbacks but made by prominent mandolin makers:

Domenico Cerrone viola (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200113392941)

Raffaele Calace violin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260123971619)

Jim

[brunello97]

Alex,

Thanks for posting that. By coincidence I am repairing a Puglisi mandola that needs rebracing. Seeing the Embergher bracing like this has been very helpful. I was thinking of including the minor braces to either side of the soundhole. Are those typical on Emberghers?

Also, are both transverse braces below the soundhole typically angled as we see in this damsel-in-distress?

thanks!

Mick

[Graham McDonald]

I am rather tempted to put in a bid on the bowl-less Embergher for the practice of building a bowl. I get the idea that the postage rates only apply to Germany rather than posting it to Australia? Could a German speaker perhaps offer a translation of some the bits of the German ebay site below the pictures?

Thanks

graham

[Jim Garber]

I am rather tempted to put in a bid on the bowl-less Embergher for the practice of building a bowl. I get the idea that the postage rates only apply to Germany rather than posting it to Australia? Could a German speaker perhaps offer a translation of some the bits of the German ebay site below the pictures?
Graham:
Just change the .de ending to .com in the URL and eBay will translate all the eBay listing info into English.

The description says something like estimated to be from 1913. The body is broken. The rest of the mandolin is in good condition.

I am sure that Martin or others can translate better.

Just contact the seller to determine the shipping charges and methods of payment.

Jim

[Graham McDonald]

How wonderful. I never knew it could do that. Thanks, Jim

cheers

graham

[Alex Timmerman]

Alex,

Thanks for posting that. #I was thinking of including the minor braces to either side of the soundhole. #Are those typical on Emberghers? #

Also, are both transverse braces below the soundhole typically angled as we see in this damsel-in-distress?

thanks!

Mick
Hello Mick,

Yes, the minor braces are usually there. As are the angled transverse braces below the soundhole. This last charateristic is also seen in other mandolins, like for instance the Neapolitan instruments.

It is a pitty to see this instrument so damaged; I like these early Emberghers very much because they are so well proportioned.
Just look at the head - slightly broader at the top and what a difference in appearance.
And that is only the outside! If you are lucky to find a well preserved example, even one similar like this No.1 orchestra model, you will often notice what a beautiful clear and well balanced sound they produce.

If one here wants to have a go for this poor lady, the best thing first I think is to ask the seller if he/she still has other parts (ribs and perhaps pieces of the lable) of the mandolin.



Best and succes,

Alex

[brunello97]

Alex,
It would be great to see someone work a Lazarus miracle on this mandolin.

I'm going to give these small side braces a go. I like the idea much better than laminating on a piece of veneer to stiffen this area.

To be clear, though, I do have a follow up question on the transverse bracing, though. The Neapolitan bowlbacks I have (albeit far from Embergher quality) do have two transverse braces below the soundhole, but the first (the one closest to the soundhole) is set perpendicular to the neck rather than angled. The second brace is angled-as we see here. I've seen this as the typical arrangement on American bowlbacks as well.

To see BOTH braces angled is new to my inexperienced eye, and perhaps a small benefit of seeing this cadaver. (But that is how Leonardo learned to draw, I suppose.) Given the superior sound and craft of the Emberghers I imagine it was heard as having some benefit?

Any others have experience or observations on this?

Thanks,

Mick

[Jim Garber]

This (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150127137172) should be interesting to watch: a 1913 Embergher No. 1 orchestral model. That tailpiece is presumably non-original, isn't it? The seller says it has been in his family since 1913 and is unrestored. There seems to be a crack in the photos, so I would think some work is needed.
I still did not hear anything from you Embergher fanatics as to why this one mentioned by Martin lacks those slight lobes on the headstock. I find it a little strange. BTW it is over €2000 now.

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

The description says something like estimated to be from 1913. The body is broken. The rest of the mandolin is in good condition.

I am sure that Martin or others can translate better.

Just contact the seller to determine the shipping charges and methods of payment.
Not much else in the German description, except that the seller says that he had intended to throw it in the bin until told by a musician friend that it might be restorable. #I guess he doesn't expect much from this auction. #The shipping description says "Germany only", but I recommend (as Jim said) that you contact the seller, as he probably never imagined that somebody would be interested in international shipping for a dead mandolin.

It looks to me like this one is missing its tailpiece as well, although that's a bit difficult to tell form the photos. #I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from? #Maybe he does still have some fragments of the label. #The tuners, incidentally, are the same as on mine, with the nice brown buttons.

Martin

[Jim Garber]

I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from? Maybe he does still have some fragments of the label. The tuners, incidentally, are the same as on mine, with the nice brown buttons.
I would imagine that the esitmate comes from the other more intact 1913 Embergher on eBay at the moment. Expect a few more of these to surface soon esp since this intact one has already gotten failry high.

Hmmmm... original tuners... Graham if you decide against it, I might attempt it for the tuners to replace my non-original ones.

Jim

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Jim and all,

About the 'lobs' normally seen on these Embergher models. Every now and then I find Embergher mandolins with the lobs sawed off. This was done to get - when the original (and well fitting) tuning device had broken down - a new tuning mechanism was placed to the side(s). In most cases however the metal plates of these other and non original Embergher tuning devices are longer than the originals. And instead of making a new plate for the gears and rollers, they just sawed away the lobs (or parts of the lobs).
Of course tuning mechanisms do come in pairs and often one only can buy them as a pair. And than there is also the un-estetic view of only one lob cut away and that's probably why we always see both lobs gone. And sometimes also the two smaller lobs at the bottom of the headstock are gone.


Best,

Alex #

Here is a photo that speaks for itself.

[brunello97]

Nice drawing, Alex.

Mick

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi Mick,

To illustrate how far people can go, I'll see if I can find a photo that shows an Embergher with the lower and smaller lobs sawed off to get the plate of the tuning device fitting.


Greetings,

Alex

[Embergher]

I wonder where the "estimated year" of 1913 comes from?
I think this (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150127137172) is where the estimated year comes from #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Why do nice mandolins so often get butchered? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif ... it's just unthinkable ...

[Bill Snyder]

I know that it is not a bowlback, but I thought some of you might be interested in this auction (http://www.shopgoodwill.com/viewItem.asp?ItemID=2768898) of a Bohm-Waldzither.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello all,


As promised, here some more of these deliberate damage on headstocks of Roman mandolins.

Attached are photo collages of a 1924 Luigi Embergher Orchestra Model 1 mandolin of which the lower lobs of the headstock and half of the upper lobs are removed.

[Alex Timmerman]

And more in detail, it become even more clear why the wood was sawed away; by cutting the metal plate one would loose the two outer screws and that would weaken the grip of the tuning mechanism to the side if the mandolin.

[Alex Timmerman]

Hello Mick and all,

For your information: Here is a photo with an view on the 1st tone-bar brace (there are two of these tone bars placed before the crank in the soundtable) in a 1914 Raffaele Calace mandolin.


Best and enjoy,

Alex

[Martin Jonas]

For your information: Here is a photo with an view on the 1st tone-bar brace (there are two of these tone bars placed before the crank in the soundtable) in a 1914 Raffaele Calace mandolin.
That brace with its assymetric peak on the treble side looks much like the one in my Giuseppe Vinaccia, although in mine it's the second brace, further away from the soundhole, that's most assymetric.

Incidentally, Mick has started a separate thread on the topic of bracing here (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=44406).

Martin

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

And again a nice and interesting early Embergher mandolin at the German department of Ebay.

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.de/Mandoline-Luigi-Embergher-von-1905_W0QQitemZ150128476860QQihZ005QQcategoryZ10179 QQrdZ1QQss


PageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">View it at this #Webpage.</a>


Best,

Alex

[Alex Timmerman]

And for auction or direct sale from the same seller as the above mentioned 1905 Embergher mandolin, a nice Raffaele Brevettato 1903 mandolin!


Click here to view that mandolin. (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150128123615&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=150128476860&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget#ebayphotohosting )


Best again,

Alex

[Alex Timmerman]

And an interesting 1910 Neapolitan concert mandolin by one of Raffaele's students and followers, Georges Garofalo.

You can see photos of this mandolin by clicking here. (http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=150128122180&ssPageName=MERC_VI_RSCC_Pr4_PcY_BIN_Stores_IT&refitem=150128123615&itemcount=4&refwidgetloc=active_view_item&usedrule1=StoreCatToStoreCat&refwidgettype=cross_promot_widget#ebayphotohosting )


About Georges Garofalo not much is known, except for the fact that his instruments (he build mostly guitars and the instruments of the mandolin family) bear labels that indicate a working period of this master in between the last years of 1890-ties and late 1930-ties. Garofalo first learned and worked in the Calace firm before he established in 1910 his own atelier in Naples. In 1919 he 'emmigrated' to Marseilles (France) where he successfully continued his musical instrument making business.


Greetings,

Alex

[Jim Garber]

Nothing like those Italian mandolins...

Matching set of Brunos (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200116395766) - both with the "Bluto" pickguard. Not sure where the seller gets that they are Larsons but whatever.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

And for auction or direct sale from the same seller as the above mentioned 1905 Embergher mandolin, a nice Raffaele Brevettato 1903 mandolin!
Alex,
What was the patented (brevettato) part of this Calace?

Jim

[Jim Garber]

And again a nice and interesting early Embergher mandolin at the German department of Ebay.
The number 3s are the ones that most appeal to me. Beautiful.

Jim

[brunello97]

Nothing like those Italian mandolins...

Matching set of Brunos (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200116395766) - both with the "Bluto" pickguard. Not sure where the seller gets that they are Larsons but whatever.

Jim
Now we have Larson made Brunos...? My head is spinning with these guys. The 8-string does have that Larson-esque ebony line beneath the neck binding. I like that detail alot. That neck detail and the headstock is part of what has me thinking my boat-back may be Larson. (It is in dry-dock right now.) Still it is hard to claim such authorship on such a small feature, even if you don't see it quite so often.

I'm guessing it is the similarity to the beard Popeye's nemesis sported that has prompted the pickguard sobriquet?

But back to the brevetatto question....Alex?

Mick

[Jim Garber]

I'm guessing it is the similarity to the beard Popeye's nemesis sported that has prompted the pickguard sobriquet?
Yes, a highly technical term coined by yours truly...

http://www.popeye-n-olive.com/image/bluto.gif

Jim

[Bob A]

I've not seen a Calace like that without a fingerboard extension. I wonder if it has been lopped off?

[Jim Garber]

I've not seen a Calace like that without a fingerboard extension. I wonder if it has been lopped off?
Yes, that is strange esp in a higher end soloist instrument. Also the butt-end resembles those of Kasermann.

Jim

[Embergher]

The number 3s are the ones that most appeal to me. Beautiful.

Jim
Yes, once it was a really nice N°3 ... pity about the damage on the table and scratchplate and the replaced nut. If it were in reasonable condition it would probably have been sold by now, though it's quite a high price for an orchestral mandolin. Well, you never know on Ebay ... that 1913 N°1 is already over 2800 EUR with 2 days to go and it's not in what you can call good condition

[Martin Jonas]

Ceccherini (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140124781169) on Ebay Italy. #A few interesting features:

- The headstock is quite a bit different from the norm: one single engraved tuner plate rather than two separate ones, no headstock cutout, nice headstock inlay (which one of mine has, too).
- Binding is (fake?) tortoiseshell with pearl inlays, rather than the normal tulipwood. #I have to say I prefer the tulipwood.
- Once again a different scratchplate inlay -- no two seem the same. #This one is quite intricate, but not as pleasing as some.
- Non-original bridge.
- This looks to have a bone nut, plus zero fret, similar to Emberghers, rather than the normal brass/silver nut.
- Unusual third/fifth fret inlays.

I can't tell if it has the second soundboard, but it probably does. #Like all others I've seen, this one also has the "Alban Voigt" label. Looks pretty clean; I wonder it if has been sanded down. #Seller and current high bidder are both old Ebay hands.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

Thanks, Martin, for posting these. #I think I'm going to launch a bid or two on the Monzino. It is a nice looking mandolin to my eye.
I see it went for 206 Pounds to a US buyer -- is that you, Mick? Quite a good price, I would think, assuming structural integrity. I was expecting around 300 Pounds.

The Romito & Carbone went for 156 Pounds, which I would think is too much. Most genuine de Meglios go for less, although admittedly it seems in very nice condition.

Martin

[Neil Gladd]

Now we have Larson made Brunos...? My head is spinning with these guys. The 8-string does have that Larson-esque ebony line beneath the neck binding. I like that detail alot. That neck detail and the headstock is part of what has me thinking my boat-back may be Larson. (It is in dry-dock right now.) Still it is hard to claim such authorship on such a small feature, even if you don't see it quite so often.
I Googled Larsen and Bruno, and here (http://www.larsonscreations.com/wanted.htm) is the only other hit I got.

[brunello97]

It looks like the same Bruno, Bluto scratchplate and all.....A lot of the Ebay ad copy reads the same as from the website. Is Robert Hartman associated with 'rchguitars'. (Like Quasimodo, I've got a hunch.) The price seems more reasonable on ebay. Still, the whole Larson attribution phenomenon can seem like a mysterious science, even though RH seems to be the man. I'm glad he has a website up and going on the Larsons. It will help the cause immeasureably. A lot of nice instruments on the slide show.

Mick

[brunello97]

I see it went for 206 Pounds to a US buyer -- is that you, Mick? #Quite a good price, I would think, assuming structural integrity. #I was expecting around 300 Pounds.

Martin
No that wasn't me, unfortunately not, Martin. The shipping costs (+130$) kind of pushed me off. It is a very nice looking instrument-and of course I was attracted by the Monzino connection. I don't quite understand why shipping from the UK to the USA is so high when from the states to the UK (or the continent) is in the 15-20L range. I've sent a number of mandolins over for under $45 US. Maybe something about mailing into the headwinds?

Martin, are there any alternative shippers -or methods- in the UK that you might recommend, or is it a more acceptable practice to bulk up the 'handling' end of 'shipping and handling'? It is true, sometimes I will get a shipping quote for around 15L which throws my whole understanding for a loop.

I've bailed on any number of EuroBay auctions due to high shipping. My instrument budget is not so high that the additional $75-100 won't tip the scale sometimes.

Not to divert the thead over such a mundance topic, but my same question viz shipping is out there for Italy as well. I've sent packages from Italy by private shippers for very reasonable rates. The post is a another story....Any recommendations on shipping from Italia?

BTW, I'm happy to act as a conduit for any of our Euro-MC folks if it helps with shipping costs or convenience on US EMando-Bay auctions. Just let me know. I'm close to the USPS office and am in and out of there on a regular basis. A friendly lot at the station (and one particularly charming lass at the counter.....)

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

Mick -- I think the quoted prices are about right. It is possible that there are special bargain shippers, but looking around on the Parcelforce (the parcel arm of Royal Mail) and DHL web sites, somewhere between 50 Pounds and 70 Pounds is standard for mandolin-sized parcels. DHL seems to be somewhat flexible in their rates, and there are third-party web sites that quote you substantially cheaper rate if you book DHL though them, e.g. interparcel.com, but even then it comes to about 40 Pounds. I suspect that the big difference is volumetric charging, though: I've just had a look at the USPS web site and see that they charge by weight only with no mention of size. In contrast, Parcelforce and DHL will ask for the dimensions of the box and for lightweight but bulky items will calculate a "volumetric weight" which is greater than the actual weight. For mandolins, the volumetric weight is about three times the actual weight, which corresponds to about double the shipping cost. However, it is my experience that some post offices don't know about or don't bother with volumetric weights and just ask you to pop the parcel on the scale and charge you accordingly. I've sent a mandolin to Ireland for 14 Pounds that should have cost 30 Pounds. Luck of the draw, unfortunately.

Martin

[brunello97]

Martin

Thanks for the clarification....The volumetric charge makes perfect sense. I think I've experienced the 'tale of the tape' with USPS as well - I've had it boost the shipping rates here by $20 or more. Most reps pull it out, but occasionally one slips by. I know better now to hang on to my slightly undersized shipping boxes. Too bad that the standard rates remain so high. Still, if the dollar keeps plunging a mando-holiday in the UK grows more a plausible two-birds-with-one-stone.

Mick

[brunello97]

Here is a modest bowlback of perhaps interest to the easterly members of the Brotherhood:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....SS:US:1 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260125823554&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1)

Mugwumps has a listing for the Tipaldi Bros (and I noticed one turned up on a UK auction site for a paltry 875L.

Any background on i fratelli?

[Neil Gladd]

Any background on i fratelli?
I know them as importers and publishers. I acquired several of their editions last year, mainly arrangements. I don't know that they actually built mandolins. I'll see if I have any good pictures at home.

[Bob A]

I'm a bit shocked at the parcelforce prices myself. While the quoted price is certainly correct, it is way too high for the level of service. I had a mandolin shipped from France via fedex and got it overnighted for that kind of money, and parcelforce takes several days.

I can't remember exactly, but I think I 've rec'd mandolins from Australia for half that cost; but just the other day I was interested in a book from Down Under, and the postage was $11 US for surface, and $17 for air.

International shipping is too important to let government monopolies get involved. I'm sure there must be alternatives at the prices they're charging.

[Alex Timmerman]

Ha!


Yes, these costs are simply outrageous.

But what do you think of this: the airplane companies charge you 150 Euro when you take your own mandola/guitar/mandoloncello or bass with you to the US. And another 150 when you fly back! And for this amount your instrument is "placed" (by others!?!!) in the bagage compartment of the airplane... #

Did you ever look down from your airplane window how these airfield workers deal with your luggage? Well don't; it will become your worst nightmare...


Best,

Alex

[Martin Jonas]

Still, if the dollar keeps plunging a mando-holiday in the UK grows more a plausible two-birds-with-one-stone.
Well, if you (or any other MC mando brethren) do, please drop by for a bit of mandotasting! I may even be able to rustle up the odd pint of beer...

Martin

[Jim Garber]

The cost to ship my Embergher from the Uk to me last year was pretty exhorbitant. Luckily my brother-in-law was over there at the right time and was able to drive over from London, pick it up for me and fly with it back home.

This is the biggest problem with considering buying instruments or anything else from Europe.

Jim

[brunello97]

Still, if the dollar keeps plunging a mando-holiday in the UK grows more a plausible two-birds-with-one-stone.
Well, if you (or any other MC mando brethren) do, please drop by for a bit of mandotasting! #I may even be able to rustle up the odd pint of beer...

Martin
Ah, so how would a German guy living in the UK compare German mandolins (read beer) to English mandolins (read ale)? It seems that exploring the different sounds (read flavors) would make for a happy bit of life's work.

I would be fascinated to know how you appreciate the differences in volume (read temperature) that these mandolins (read beer) are played (read quaffed) at.

I hope we can flesh out this discussion in person one day, Martin.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Unfortunately the geographic center for all of us here in Classical land is prob somewhere in the mid Atlantic Ocean. Beer would be very salty. However, I intend to cash in and pay off my beer chits one of these days with many of you good folks. I hope to do so with Alex this summer and wish i could with Richard (again) this month. Oh well.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

For anyone in the market for a Sakis bowlback (http://newyork.craigslist.org/mnh/msg/346836742.html), currently being sold in New York on craigslist.

Jim

[Bob A]

Looks a lot like my Kevorkian, except for bowl lining and label, even to the silver/black walnut.

[Jim Garber]

That 1/2 of an Embergher is bid up to €242 by one of the Taiwanese luthiers.

Jim

[brunello97]

That 1/2 of an Embergher is bid up to €242 by one of the Taiwanese luthiers.

Jim
In which case, we'll probably be seeing it again fairly soon, with some 'improved' ornamentation. I never could see what anyone saw in those Emberghers. They were just so 'plain looking.'

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Carlo has a rather odd-looking Calace Classico D (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=23788&query=retrieval) in the classifieds.

http://www.mandolincafe.com/classifieds/upload/23788.jpg

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

That 1/2 of an Embergher is bid up to €242 by one of the Taiwanese luthiers.
Final price 311 Euro. Makes the prices paid by me and by Jim for our complete Emberghers look very reasonable indeed! Surely it's going to cost at least 1000 Euro to get a luthier to build a bowl, and then it still won't be a real Embergher. At least it was saved from a Taiwanese Frankenstein existence.

Martin

[Neil Gladd]

Matching set of Brunos (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200116395766) - both with the "Bluto" pickguard.
4 hours to go and no takers on the Brunos. I'm not convinced about the Larsen connection, but I do rather like them since they are so much like my own mandolin. If I had $600, though, there are things I need more...

[Jim Garber]

Bluto notwithstanding... Neil, do you really need a twelve string?

Ah, late spring cleaning in the UK:

Fliss: is this deMeglio (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=23815&query=retrieval) in the classifieds yours?

Ceccherini (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=23811&query=retrieval) from Martin.

Jim

[Fliss]

Ah, late spring cleaning in the UK:

Fliss: is this deMeglio (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=23815&query=retrieval) in the classifieds yours?

Jim
Yep! #I decided that, of my bowlbacks, the Calace feels more right for me so the De Meglio is in need of a good home.

Fliss

[Neil Gladd]

Bluto notwithstanding... Neil, do you really need a twelve string?
Yes, I feel the need to spend much more of my time tuning! Since I can't afford it though, I'll just tune the instruments I have more often.

[Martin Jonas]

Ah, late spring cleaning in the UK:

Fliss: is this deMeglio (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=23815&query=retrieval) in the classifieds yours?

Ceccherini (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=23811&query=retrieval) from Martin.
Bit of a coincidence: I knew Fliss wanted to sell her de Meglio (fine instrument!), but we hadn't quite intended to post it on the same day.

Still, if anyone in the US wants a double pack, I'm sure we get better shipping rates in a single box...

Martin

[trebleclef528]

Now if i had 6000 Euro to spare I would certainley consider <a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/MANDOLINE-Italienne-annee-1770-ANTONIUS-VINACCIA_W0QQitemZ290127831094QQihZ019QQcategoryZ1
04485QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>as a nice investment.

I wonder how many more of these are hiding away in closets? Anyone living in a house that was built around 1770 with lots of cupboards?
Ian

[vkioulaphides]

Interesting... Yes, Bob, the products of Greek luthiers do look remarkably alike, considering that(nearly)all luthiers buy mass-produced parts from only a handful of shops, "bowlwrights", etc. Kevorkian, however, does a FAR better job in assembling them, and in setting up the instrument than the factory of Sakis (Matsikas).

Sr. Mazzaccara's "Romanized" Calace is oddly so, with slotted peghead and (crudely) Embergheresque scroll pickguard. Odd...

[Jim Garber]

Now if i had 6000 Euro to spare I would certainley consider <a href="http://cgi.ebay.fr/MANDOLINE-Italienne-annee-1770-ANTONIUS-VINACCIA_W0QQitemZ290127831094QQihZ019QQcategoryZ1

04485QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">this</a>as a nice investment.
I would want some assurance that that is genuine esp for that price and if I wanted it for investment purposes.

Jim

[trebleclef528]

Quote: JGarber
I would want some assurance that that is genuine esp for that price and if I wanted it for investment purposes.

Agreed.. i think I would be collecting and paying in person!

[Jim Garber]

This 1904 Martin (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120131144539) looks to be in exceptional condition. Too bad the seller is asking an outrageous price. I would think it should be 1/2 that.

He has a youtube clip to show it off but the sound is distorted. He prob shouldn't have mentioned it.

Jim

[brunello97]

The 'white glove' thing is an interesting marketing ploy. #I've never played with gloves on, but have thought about trying those fingerless mitten things the Yankees up here use in the wintertime.

Great looking Martin though. #Their style was classic even in 1904. #Do I risk heresy by suggesting some of the same understatement is present-and perhaps admired -as folks appreciate about Emberghers? #(Obviously not the same details or quality perhaps, but maybe you get my drift.) #I wonder if Eugene 'Hunt' is still getting a cut on all these sales.......

Mick

[brunello97]

Here is what looks to be a steeply priced "Galiano" with what appears to be Raphael Ciani's imprinteur. # #Not to get back into the morass of the 'incestuous' NY area luthiery shops, but I thought Ciani did his work in the US. The seller suggests this was brought from Italy ca 1911. # My hunch is that he/she is a bit confused, but does anyone know if the Galiano-Ciani mob produced mandolins in Italy before working in the States?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws....ddle:us (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180129019310&fromMakeTrack=true&ssPageName=VIP:watchlink:middle:us)

Too bad the photos are so bad and the price so high. #I'm very interested and intrigued by these ex-pat Italian makes: Grauso, Ricca, Manello, Galiano, Ciani, etc.

Mick

[Jim Garber]

Seller is prob confused because of family legend and the Italian on the label (see below in a clear photo). This may be the same one but i recall recently another Ciani mandolin that was on eBay for a few rounds at $2500. This may be where the price comes from.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Great looking Martin though. Their style was classic even in 1904. Do I risk heresy by suggesting some of the same understatement is present-and perhaps admired -as folks appreciate about Emberghers? (Obviously not the same details or quality perhaps, but maybe you get my drift.) I wonder if Eugene 'Hunt' is still getting a cut on all these sales.......
Risk heresy? I think many of us here are equally attracted to the workmanship of the Martin factor... no heresy here. Eugene has a lovely understated Martin. As far as Emberghers, maybe not same details but certainly the attention to detail. You can certainly see it in any of the Martin instruments from the lowest grade to the highest.

Mick, who is Eugene 'Hunt'?

Jim

[Martin Jonas]

I guess you also get label as this (http://www.majesticguitars.com/InstrumentsofOthers.html) one, where an expat luthier in New York labelled his instruments with "GAETANO PUNTOLILLO Fabbricante di Strumenti ARMONICI Napoli - New York". I very much doubt that he had a workshop in Naples, too. Puntolillo, incidentally, also built banjos and guitars under the "Majestic" brand. Peculiarly, his banjo and guitar designs appear to have been licensed to Germany, where the licensee then started to build typicaly-German mandolins with the Majestic brand name and logo. My grandfather's mandolin, which I inherited and on which I learned to play, is a Majestic but clearly never got anywhere near New York or Naples -- it's a typical German seven-stave semi-roundback.

Martin

[brunello97]

Martin, I wonder if this Puntolillo label is from the same instrument (the tear looks familiar.) The date on this is roughly around the time of our Galiano seller's family arrival to NYC. I want to believe he bilingual labeling on the Puntolillo and Galiano is more than just clever marketing but addressing the huge pool of recent Italian immigrants in the region. The Napoli-New York thing might be eyewash but also might suggest that materials, luthiers, even components might have been immigrating as well as customers. I may be projecting late 20thC manufacturing methods onto this, but Victor's experience with a centralized 'bowl making' trade (in Greece? - I hope I'm remembering this right) and the similarity between many low end Neapolitan makers makes me wonder about how some of these shops operated.

My wife and some colleagues are working on a video documentary of the accordion and accordion players in the Detroit during the big industrial run up here. I keep hinting that there is a MUCH MORE INTERESTING instrument for such a research work, but so far no go.

It would be grand if someone took up the torch on the history of the NY scene as Sheri Mignano has done in SF.

Jim - sorry for being so often obscure. I've been busting our Eugene for about a year on his inflationary Martin comments. Referencing the Hunt Bros. and their silver cabal is probably less accurate than linking Eugene to Alan Greenspan. The price of used Martins seems to ebb and flow relative to Eugene's statements here at the MC.

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

Martin, #I wonder if this Puntolillo label is from the same instrument (the tear looks familiar.)
The same instrument as what? #The label you've posted is clearly not from the instrument I linked to. #As you can see in the photo below, it does not have the tearing of your photo (and in any case is a 1914, not 1912). #Where is your label from? #The current owner of Majestic Guitars, a descendent of Gaetano, may be interested to hear of it, as he's researching his family history. #I corresponded with him a few years ago about my Majestic, but he lost interest when he realised it was a German-built instrument.

Martin

[brunello97]

Sorry Martin, I saw that curved line in the soundhole of your post and misunderstood (not wearing my glasses yet this am.) #I'm not exactly sure where I turned this up, but will check. #I have a few images of the mandolin. I'd be happy to forward them along.

Mick