tremolo technique

[pete*mando]

I am curious to read everyones thoughts on tremelo techniques. The most common argument I've heard is if tremolo is an all wrist thing or do you use your arm. David Grisman for instance claims it is in the wrist, but I usually do not hear a very rapid tremelo from his technique. I have not had much of a chance to see Thile's technique, but when I hear his tremolo at times it is hard for me to believe that he his just using his wrist.

I myself have found more success with using my arm. I also adjust my pick grip for tremolo. I still feel that my tremelo can use some work.

Watcha y'all thoughts

[dochardee]

I find it is easier for me to get a fast, fluid tremolo using only the wrist: rotating the wrist as if you were turning a key in a lock. For example, I've seen Tim O'Brien use this approach. Some players like Chris Thile are able to tremolo from the wrist by moving the hand rapidly back and forth in a flat plane using the wrist as a pivot point (think of using an eraser.) Thile also often plants the heel of his palm on the strings just behind the bridge.

My wrist doesn't want to work that way. And if I plant at all it is just to let my fingertips brush the pickguard. Watch other players on video and in person, try the different approaches and see what works for you. I think you will find that most players recommend a very loose wrist. Playing tremolo by moving the forearm from the elbow with the wrist locked is just too much work.

[jasona]

To play fast I find trying less-relaxing--really helps.

[DMC]

I think with a fast tremolo a certain amount of arm movement is inevitable.....but the action is coming from your wrist. Try keeping your wrist still and just moving from your arm. Only Superman could move his arm up and down fast enough to do a tremolo this way. It's just really fast up and down strokes - ask any classical player. See Marilyn Mair's exercise (I've found it really helpful) that she explains in the interview on Co-mando.com

[AlanN]

In case you missed the Apollon thread, see here for a good 'tremble'

Apollon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwOZjFvjKUA)

[Martin Jonas]

The other question is whether you actually want a fast tremolo. To my mind, too many players are going for the dentist drill effect. I prefer an expressive Italianate tremolo taken at a relatively leisurely pace. Musicality is the goal, not speed.

Martin

[jmcgann]

Listen again to Grisman- he uses tremolo aplenty.

There's the "elbow" school and the "wrist" school. The elbow, to me, doesn't give me the sound I want. YMMV like what else is new http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[gschmidt]

The other question is whether you actually want a fast tremolo. To my mind, too many players are going for the dentist drill effect. I prefer an expressive Italianate tremolo taken at a relatively leisurely pace. Musicality is the goal, not speed.

Martin
Good call out. I absolutely love the sound of Mike Compton's tremolo. He does it nice and smooth and sounds great.

[mandocrucian]

Back in the days of The Mandocrucian's Digest, mando-monster Evan Marshall contributed a series of "Technique" columns, including a several dealing with the subject of tremolo.

#8 - ALY BAIN (Shetland fiddler) interview ("Da Galley Watch", "Da Black Reel", "The Full Rigged Ship"), Accompaniment Workshop with Tony Cuffe (of Ossian), Bluegrass w/John Baldry (Altered scales - "Old Joe Clark"), <span style='color:red'>Technique w/Evan Marshall (a new tremolo in 2 months)</span>, Irish Mandolin w/Moloney ("The Priest And His Boots" jig), Cajun Mandolin w/Michael Doucet ("Jongle a moi"), Old-Time Fiddle Tunes For Mando w/Judy Hyman ("Going Back to Israel"), Jazz/swing w/John McGann (jazz phrasing), Street performance w/Sean Grissom (being heard, holding an audience), books about lutherie, record reviews.

#12 - DAN HICKS interview plus interviews with former "Lickettes" MARYANN PRICE and NAOMI EISENBERG, Dr. Don on Tendonitus, <span style='color:red'>Technique w/Evan Marshall (Introduction to duo-style)</span>, Irish Mandolin w/Mick Moloney ("My Darling Asleep"), Rhythm Mando w/Hokkanen (rock & roll shuffles, part 2), Jazz/Swing w/John McGann (Blues -part 3), Liz Carroll tunes ("For Eugene", "Gravity Hill"), Bluegrass w/Hokkanen ("Salt Creek"), 1988 Listening survey, "La Bastringue", Jethro Burns obit., record reviews.

#14 - JIM WATSON (ex Red Clay Ramblers) interview ("Shady Grove"), Cajun w/Tommy Comeaux (seconding/backup), Jazz/swing w/John McGann (chord primer), Irish Mandolin w/Mick Moloney (Sean O'Riada and the development of the Irish ensemble, "The Boyne Hunt"), Bluegrass w/John Baldry (playing on fiddle tunes: "Arkansas Traveler", "Dinah"), Playing Square/Contra Dances w/ Larry Edelman (building your repertoire), <span style='color:red'>Technique w/Evan Marshall (duo-style techniques applied: "Londonderry Aire")</span>, record reviews

Mandocrucian Catalog (http://www.users.waitrose.com/~john.baldry/mando/hokkanen.html) - scroll down to page for Mandocrucian's Digest issue contents. (Further down, there is a issue breakdown according to genre contents)

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>Any orders over $20 will include a copy of the recently compiled 60 min. Niles Hokkanen Mandolin Sampler cd, with music in a variety of genres, taken from various CDs, as well as some tracks lifted from the instructional recordings. Also include are a couple of previously unreleased tracks. ($5.50 ppd. for the Sampler by itself.)</span>

Niles Hokkanen

[margora]

"The other question is whether you actually want a fast tremolo. To my mind, too many players are going for the dentist drill effect. I prefer an expressive Italianate tremolo taken at a relatively leisurely pace. Musicality is the goal, not speed."

I certainly agree that musicality is the goal. However, there are many occasions (at least, in the music I play, duo-style solo + chamber + mandolin orchestra) when having a fast tremolo is absolutely essential to the musical line. To me, the goal is to call up enough technique to play whatever type of tremolo (or anything else, for that matter) at any time, in a nanosecond.

There are different ways to achieve a high degree of control over a tremolo. I personally have switched recently to the modern Italian right hand (i.e. Carlo Aonzo), which uses a flat wrist technique (the wrist touches lightly the strings behind the bridge and the fundamental motion comes from the wrist in a more or less flat plane with a slight amount of forearm. Probably Chris Thile is closest to this among well-known American players). This is far from the only way, however -- Gertrud Weyhofen (among other German players) has an extremly fluid, fast, expressive tremolo using a more conventional bent wrist. Tamara Volskaya also has a marvellous tremolo derived (as one would imagine) from domra technique, which uses more forearm.

[glauber]

In case you missed the Apollon thread, see here for a good 'tremble'

Apollon (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwOZjFvjKUA)
OMG! The only person i've seen that can touch this is Evan Marshall.

[GBG]

My biggest tremolo problem is that I'm usually doing it on doublestops-more area to cover with each stroke.

[pete*mando]

Quote
In case you missed the Apollon thread, see here for a good 'tremble'

Although the video quality is poor, I would say that what I see is that Apollon does use his arm to some extent. Revaluating how I approach tremolo I think I use both my wrist & my arm. I use my arm to "jump start" my wrist into motion and try letting my wrist just move like it is detached from my forearm. Sometimes this is difficult when I am not warmed up to the point that my wrist is extremely loose.


[QUOTE]I find it is easier for me to get a fast, fluid tremolo using only the wrist: rotating the wrist as if you were turning a key in a lock. For example, I've seen Tim O'Brien use this approach. Some players like Chris Thile are able to tremolo from the wrist by moving the hand rapidly back and forth in a flat plane using the wrist as a pivot point (think of using an eraser.) Thile also often plants the heel of his palm on the strings just behind the bridge.

I am a big believer in Thile's right hand technique (moving your wrist in a flat plane). All of my picking is done with this technique which I adopted just about a year ago and still not quite up to speed as I once was. I think many people prefer a "turining key approach" because it feels more natural to get a fluid movement. I have found that the flat plane technique offers a much bolder tone but requires more development of dexterity for the movement. I guess it is a matter of developing the "flat plane" wrist movement for tremelo for me to acquire the sound I want.

As far as would you want a rapid tremelo? Why not? If you can keep a good tone a have a rapid tremelo I would say that you would be caple of any speed of tremelo.Isn't that a good thing to have? I have heard recordings that a rapid tremelo can be very fitting and tasteful. On the other hand I do agree that sometimes a moderate or even slower tremelo with a good tone can be more fitting. Depends on the mood of the song, context of the tremelo line, and your ability to produce a good tone while doing so.

[glauber]

I was paying attention to Apollon's arm because of this thread. I think he uses it to start the tremolo, but then the wrist takes over. His wrist is very fluid. I love the long upstrokes he uses for effect.

[SternART]

Shouldn't tremelo be within a mathematical formula of so many up downs per beat / per measure / etc?
I know you can speed it up or slow it down for effect, but there still needs to be a relationship to
the groove.

[margora]

"Shouldn't tremelo be within a mathematical formula of so many up downs per beat / per measure / etc?"

I can only speak from my own reference point (classical) but the answer to your question is, it depends. In duo-style at least as it was taught earlier in the century (Pettine, say, or Calace) and even today in German technique, one generally does have a specific number of strokes in mind (this is essential in duo style because one is maintaining the rhythm in the bass). However, this would not necessarily be true (or even desirable) in playing a single line, say, in composition for mandolin orchestra. Most composers for the latter leave the number of strokes up to the player unless they are after a specific effect.

[AlanN]

Don Stiernberg has a very expressive tremble. His playing on Lover Man off his Rosetta LP is da bomb.

[Peter Hackman]

In my case I know it's mostly wrist, but apart from that I don't know what
I'm doing, whether it's metronomical or whatever.

I can't recall ever practising tremelo the way it's recommended,
from slow to fast, because that's not at all how
I hear it. It's something
automatically triggered by the pressure of the pick against the
strings, and it seems to have ben there all the time.
My main trouble is I tend to tremulate too much
and possibly too fast.
Like any device, it should be used with economy.
Flinner and Grisman are the names that come to mind.

I've been watching Bush on YouTube quite a bit. Very unorthodox,
lots of forearm movement and his right hand looks like
a dead fish. But it works.

[DMC]

San Rafael,
I think you have to be sufficiently warmed up to perform a fast, flowong tremolo but also not starting to fatigue....that's what I found anyway. I do the tremolo exercise recommended by Marilyn Mair on a daily basis now. It's a great right hand warm-up, good for your timing, improves your tremolo technique (slowly,obvioulsy)and builds endurance - something which is very important and often overlooked IMO.

[Soupy1957]

"I," like Chris thile (not purposesly) plant my wrist on the strings behind the bridge, (which I suppose will be criticised for being wrong to do), just naturally, as I play, (badly, at that). The end result tends to be that my pick ends up deeper within the strings and it ain't so easy getting tremelo if you are coming up and out of the strings on every stroke. Likewise, being deeper within the strings forces a harder action which breaks more strings and pick-tips.
-Soupy1957

[jmcgann]

My ideal of technique is that it's ever-evolving- so if something isn't working right, I try to figure out how to correct it. I started with the worst technique in the world and burned it in for about 13 years until I started asking people like Andy Statman and Russ Barenberg why I sounded so bad. I got some great advice that made me realize I didn't suck after all- my technique (and timing and conception of rhythm and taste) needed work, was all.

So whether it's tremolo, making smooth sounds between your left and right hands, going for Monroe style, or whatever your quest, try to get advice from the best players you can find. It can save you years of grief!

[groveland]

From a conversation with a well-known player with legendary tremolo:

Me: "You know, I read that you can tell a guitar player that switched over to mando by how he plays. #One giveaway is said to be that guitar players will omit tremolo. #Is it true that tremolo is essential to 'real' mando playing?"

Him: "Only if you're playing Italian music!"

Then I watched closely as his tremolo came from the wrist, he used the rounded edge of a standard guitar pick, his pick was angled downward a bit toward the pickguard, and the pick edge stroked the string more than plucking.

<span style='font-size:7pt;line-height:100%'>edit: Corrected spelling. #Tremolo, NOT tremelo! Arrrgh!</span>

[fredfrank]

I was asked one time to explain pick technique on the mandolin, to which I replied: "You pick down, then you pick up, then repeat as needed."

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Repent34]

I think with a fast tremolo a certain amount of arm movement is inevitable.....but the action is coming from your wrist. Try keeping your wrist still and just moving from your arm. Only Superman could move his arm up and down fast enough to do a tremolo this way. It's just really fast up and down strokes - ask any classical player. See Marilyn Mair's exercise (I've found it really helpful) that she explains in the interview on Co-mando.com
Lets not forget about Steve Austin. I once saw an episode where he was strumming a guitar so fast his whole arm was a blur. He then took a few small stones and shook them in his loose fist so fast that it sounded like a rattlesnake.

Don't recon he'd have any trouble with tremelo from the elbow.

chris

[Lee Callicutt]

The most common argument I've heard is if tremolo is an all wrist thing or do you use your arm.
Being the rankest of amateurs and a crossover from guitar as well, I have an interest in this myself. I just saw the Nashville Mandolin Ensemble perform this past weekend and had the chance to watch two top-notch players side-by-side. Butch's tremolo technique is decidedly from the elbow/forearm, while Matt's wrist is a little looser. Both sound great, but to my ear, Butch's was a little sweeter.

[jmcgann]

Shouldn't tremelo be within a mathematical formula of so many up downs per beat / per measure / etc?
I know you can speed it up or slow it down for effect, but there still needs to be a relationship to
the groove.

A good "mathematical" exercise, not just for tremolo, but for greater rhythmic perception of the beat (and hence, groove) is to put a slow click (like quarter=48) on the metronome. Just piuck one open string. Play one note per click, dead on the beat. Then 2. Then 3 (both down/up/down down/up/down and alternate d/u/d/ #u/d/u).

4: dudu dudu
5: dudud dudud
6: dududu (this is the start of actual tremolo)
7: dududud dududud
8: dudududu (this is a smooth 'classical' measured tremolo)
9: dud dud dud

If you are very crazy, you can continue on up into the higher numbers. It gets really fun around 11, 13, and 17 (I am told by alien life forms who communicate with me via my fillings) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Actually, Andy Statman as a teenager would obsess over Bill Monroe recordings to figure out if he used 13 or 14 strokes on a tremolo. Maybe very crazy ain't so bad....

The odd groupings with the "extra downstrokes" aren't tremolo, but they show you how you can phrase odd groupings and not screw up the articulation (and also to help keep count); notice that "1" is always played with a downstroke, which allows you to keep track of that important pulse (and not just swim in a sea of rubato).

Once you get the feel, try adding other notes to the line. You'll be playing in a Bulgarian wedding band before the end of the year!

To really bum out, try going from different levels like 2 to 7 to 5 to 3 to 8 without messing up. It'll keep you from the golf course (dinner table, bathroom etc.) for awhile! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif