Improving Tone

[Jaded]

I've been playing about a year and a half now. I've taken a couple lessons and have a bunch of books and dvds, but mostly I just sit around and play whatever.

I feel like my tone has improved a lot since I started, however it's still not very good. What are some specific things I can work on to improve it?

I'm working on trying to hold the pick more loosely and lighten my touch on the frets, but so far it only seems to yield slight improvement.

I find when I grip the pick real loosely it sounds better, but I have a hard time keeping it from rotating or just falling out of my hand.

I can't quite seem to find the happy place to put my hand either. The two mandolin players I personally know with great tone both rest their hand lightly behind the bridge (ie like thile advises in his dvd). However, if i rest my palm there the pick ends up behind the sweet spot, if I put my wrist there it ends up in front of it. I'm struggling to find a spot that is comfortable and puts my pick in the right place. I've tried playing with a free hand and find it very difficult to do, fingers on the top isn't real comfortable either. Those that have switched from resting behind bridge to free hand...how long did it take to get back to the speed and accuracy you had before?

I can't afford to get my mando scooped...My action is fairly low and I get a lot of click if I play in the 'sweet spot'...am likly digging too deep with the pick and would benefit from just learning not to hit the frets?

I've noticed my right hand fingers tend to brush the strings when i'm picking and chopping...this seems like not a good thing. How far away do most of you hold your picking hand...what angle?

I would describe my current tone as being a bit on the thin and shrill side on the treble notes and thunky on the bass notes. Any tips would be appreciated.

Just as an fyi...for those that would suggest lessons, I plan on it, but I can't afford them right now. And the tone is definately me and not my mandolin, I've heard too many other people make it sound good <g>

[Jaded]

http://www.mandolinproject.150m.com/sallyg.html

If it helps in coming up with suggestions on what improvements to make...My recording of sally goodin is there as part of the wonderful beginners project started here on the cafe http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Coy Wylie]

Definitely get involved in the mando project. It's great fun and helpful to have constructive comments from others. Plus it causes you to learn tunes to the point where you can perform them in front of a microphone and a long distance audience.

As to your other questions. I understand and I am there myself. However, there are lots of highly experienced players here who I'm sure will post with specific answers. This is a great community.

[GBG]

The first thing to do is listen to good players and get a sound in your ear of what the tone should be. Then start experimenting on your own mandolin with different picks, different picking techniques, etc. until you come upon the tone you like. Play everything slowly trying always to produce that good tone, and after a few years it will be automatic.

[Bluegrass Boy]

Working on technique is the key to better all around playing. However, sometimes there are quick fixes. You might try a different pick. Thicker picks with rounder tips can get rid of the thin sound. Try somethings like dawg picks.

[chirorehab]

One thing that has helped me, and I too am just a beginner, is something Ted (mandohack) said to try..... Practice scales real, real slow. Make sure each note rings. That has and continues to help me improve my tone.

Good luck,

Eric

[August Watters]

That's some good advice!

Some of the technical considerations I often see from students that affect tone negatively:

1) too much motion in the fingers -- the motion should come from the larger muscles (wrist flexion and forearm rotation). If your thumb is wiggling when you pick, you're probably losing tone and power this way.

2) damping the back of the mandolin -- holding it up against your body will kill the tone. Be sure the back can vibrate freely -- either by building your technique using a strap so that you can hold the mandolin away from you, a la Bill Monroe, or by buying a Tone Guard -- a fantastic invention.

3) resting the wrist behind the bridge, as Chris T suggests, but doing it too heavily. Lots of people do this to avoid planting fingers, but they end up killing the tone of the mandolin by putting pressure on the bridge. If you're going to rest your wrist back there, be careful that you're not losing some tone and loudness. Most bluegrass players avoid this by brushing the open fingers against the top of the mandolin or pickguard.

Hope this helps!

August W
http://www.galleryofstrings.com

[GTison]

...to scoop is not the answer. folks had tone before people started lopping off the end of the fretboard. try the picks, attack angle, mandolin angle hand/wrist angles. and meditate while you play on tone ......tone.....tone....tone........tone....

[Scotti Adams]

..find the sweet spot of your mando and practice on getting the most out of it..and do your mando good..

[Mike Bullard]

I found the Siren Armrest helped some on tone by raising my forearm off the body and giving my wrist some relief from the bridge.

My 2 cents.... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[Michael Lewis]

Is the main obsticle your insturment? Or when some one else plays it does it sound good?

[Dagger Gordon]

Try not to play too near the bridge.

[Scotti Adams]

..2 words....Tone-Gard....

[straight-a]

Gorilla Snot www.gorillasnot.com will solve the rotating pick problem.

Try different brands of strings. I've tried several different sets on mine and can see big differences.

All of the other advice listed is great!

[mando bandage]

As far as holding the body of your mando away from your body, seems I read Niles Hokkanen's comment once about holding the mandolin like you would a rifle while walking through the wood, i.e., at about a 30 degree angle from your body. Helped me get the hang of it when I saw it expressed that way.

As far as right hand goes, try keeping more of the pick covered with your thumb and forefinger. Chris T.'s video looks like he really covers a lot of pick with his finger and thumb and just lets the working tip protrude. This will keep you from digging too deeply.

Also, I had the same trouble you had playing with a free right hand. Most of the time, I use the "resting lightly behind the bridge" technique. However, when cross-picking on Texas swing tunes, I find myself swinging freely, now that I know where my pick is going. This actually surprised me, given the difficulty I had with pick precision before this "happened." I would suggest cross picking exercises to develop precision with your right hand, which, in turn, will enable you to play freely. I also find that sometimes, I use the pick guard as a guide, not posting on it, but just reaching down with the pinky or ring finger occasionally to let my right hand get its bearings. There is a lot of pro and con to pick guard or its removal. I favor keeping it for the foregoing reason.

I've also found that playing while standing has increased my right hand picking dexterity. No explanation why there. Maybe just a little looser while standing up and walking around. The only downside is that my son must grow up thinking that a strolling mandolinist is a normal aspect of everyday life.

R

[POB]

Another thing to consider is that what you hear when you're sitting behind your mandolin while playing is not necessarily the same thing that you'd hear if you were out in front listening. It varies from instrument to instrument, but the way the sound projects forward to the listener is always different to the way it projects upward to the player. So, maybe your tone is better than you think it is. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

One thing you could do to try to assess this is to get a third person to listen to you and then another player playing your mandolin (a player who has good tone, in your opinion) and see what they think the differences are, tonewise.

[Jaded]

Thanks for all the great suggestions http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

To be honest the tone I currently have is much better than I ever thought I'd acheive when I first started playing. However, I want to avoid getting too set in my ways in doing things that I think may hold me back from moving to the next level so to speak.

I'll definately try out the suggestions.

One question, regarding the holding the mando away from the body thing...I have experimented with this, including Niles suggestion and I definately notice a big difference in sound quality, but so far I've had trouble finding a position that both has the best sound and is comfortable.

Unless I rest my arm on the top someplace, which negates most of the benefit of holding it away...The mandolin seems too unstable and tends to tilt back into the palm of my left hand when i'm playing.

[jzmilton]

Well you've already got lots of great suggestions but I will say this: Your pick makes a huge difference. I recently switched to a dawg pick and it has improved my tone by 100%. About holding the mando away from your body, I wouldn't mess with it. Get a Tone Guard. That way you can stay relaxed, and you can still have good tone standing up. Also, it would really be worth your time to learn how to play with a free picking hand. It may take a couple of weeks to get used to, but it's worth the effort.

[mandocrucian]

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>About holding the mando away from your body, I wouldn't mess with it. Get a Tone Guard. That way you can stay relaxed, and you can still have good tone standing up. Also, it would really be worth your time to learn how to play with a free picking hand. It may take a couple of weeks to get used to, but it's worth the effort.</span>

The whole point of positioning the instrument similar to a martial arts fighting stance is elimination of tension. You aren't putting any constricting twists in the forearms, shoulders or wrists which you might have in varying degrees in other postures. The fact that the instrument's back is now pretty much off your belly happens to be a happy coincidence, not the the primary reason for holding it this way, which is elimination of unnecessary body tension. (Therefore comfortable) #

If you've got a strap (I use a cheapo guitar strap over the left shoulder) you shouldn't have too much trouble keeping the instrument in a stable position. #But you have to have enough slack in the strap so it can be angled forward on a diagonal, otherwise the strap will fight you by trying to pull the instrument into a parallel to the body position. #Your right forearm will be in contact with the mandolin on the lower bass side bout, somewhere about SW (the tailpiece is S, the neck is N, and the bridge is the axis between W and E, if you want to think of the instrument as a compass)

I've gotten away from the one-dimenstional concept of good/bad tone to a more fluid dynamic of appropriate/inappropriate tone dependent on the circumstances and conditions of the moment. #Ugly "tone" can be totally appropriate when used controllably as a form of emotional expression. #Also, what is appropriate tone for "Limerock" may be inapproriate for a low-down Chicago blues. #A classical violinist has one type of tone and a fiddler has another, each in its own musical environment is appropriate, but do you want to hear a classicalized rendering of an oldtime fiddle tune? # Or vice versa?

Tone is a really complicated subject. At Kaufman's 2002 Kamp, I was on a couple of panels about it, plus I did a solo exposition (class scramble) on it and outlined on the blackboard some 40 or 50 variables which affect/contribute to it.

I'll tell you this (ruling out an awful instrument or one that is poorly set up), the biggest underlying impediment to appropriate tone is tension, physical and/or mental. #It might be in the right hand, or it could be in the left hand (PS: the concept of tone being solely a function of the RH is a myth), or your shoulders, or neck, or you're holding your breath cause you're nervous which then makes everything tighten up even more. #Get rid of the tension, and you start getting a better sound. Not as easy as it might seem.

Free wrist (forearm is still in contact with the edge of the mandolin though) is good to develop, allows you to manipulate the sound in various ways you couldn't otherwise. It's a bit on the awkward side if you've been posting or bracing. Long ongoing process to get it phased in to the point where there are more sonic reasons for using it more than your other way; you'll need a lot longer than a couple of weeks or a couple of months.

While your instrument and your gear/accessories has a part to play in the tone you get, at least 50% (probably more like 75%) comes from the individual player. You can put on different strings, or a new tailpiece etc., but beyond alterations like that, you can't buy tone (or chops); you can only earn it by putting in the time.

Niles Hokkanen

[Jaded]

I went out and bought a longer strap, so that I could get more slack in it, in the position Niles describes and that seems to have made all the difference.

This approach, definately seems comfortable and sounds better than letting it rest against my body and my arm and hand seem to just kind of naturally go where they need to.

Thanks for the tip Niles.

[neal]

August and Niles are right on. I suffer from wiggling thumb, just look in the mirror when you're playing. Tension, too. Geez, I just want to do it right and do it RIGHT NOW, but slow and easy is best. I've found that the dawg shaped picks help in practicing keeping my thumb a little less mobile. And I'm working on slow, things just sound too mechanical at this stage of my developement when played fast. It ain't guitar, that's for sure.

[billbo]

I raised my action alittle and had a HUGE tone upgrade. When you mentioned you had low action, my first thought was that you might raise it just a bit to get more downward pressure from the strings on the top of the mando. Someone mentioned about 3/32 at the 12th fret to be "medium" action.

[LilCreekster]

Just curious... do you find you have the same problem if you slow down? I know that when I push the limits of what I can do speed wise, tone seems to go down exponentially LOL.

I've met lots of other beginners since starting to play last year, and playing too fast is a pretty common problem and one that can kill tone, I've noticed.

Just a thought http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[yoods]

Niles,
Thanks for your thoughtful and thorough posts on this board. They always come from a good place and try and teach and elevate. The one above is a good example of this.

[Michael H Geimer]

"...when I push the limits of what I can do speed wise, tone seems to go down exponentially."

That's the 'tension factor' working against you as the speed inceases. Tone also goes down the drain for me when I'm nervous - like if there's a really good picker around, or someone I'm hoping to impress. LOL!

That's why it is so important to practice at slow, more relaxed tempos as you are training your muscles how to behave. You don't want to teach your muscles 'tension', but rather 'relaxation'.

I'm finding that every few months or so, my tone improves a little; it somehow gets fuller. I just know it is a result of less tension in both hands. It does sometime seem odd that a looser pick grip should equate to a louder, fuller tone, but similiar princples apply in martial arts, golf, baseball ... lots of stuff.

[SmallFry]

this isnt so much a way to get better tone but to change it. I like to flip the pick so that i'm playing with one of the shoulders of it but not the very bottom. I also angle it so that i dont hit the strings perpendicularly but at an angle. That way the pick glides right over the strings making any song less choppy