Mando to MIDI to Notation

[John Flynn]

I would to like to find a way to play something on a mando with a pickup or other input device, and have that playing show up, via electronics, in notation and/or tab, via some piece of software. Then I could edit the notation and/or tab if needed. I have a lot of variations on traditional tunes I would like to document in notation, but doing it manually is just too cumbersome. I will never get it all done. I thought using an elctrified mando as an input device would be ideal.

Specific questions are:

> Do I need a full MIDI rig for this or will some of these A-to-D converters like LightSnake do the hardware part?

> Do I need an special soundcard?

> What kind of software would be required?

I don't need all the modeling and recording capabilities of MIDI, so I would not be as concerned with latency. Can this be done? What would be the most cost-effective investment in hardware and software to do this? What problems might I encounter?

[mandroid]

You want 8 strings ? or will 4 (or5) do the trick?

[John Flynn]

Mandroid:

Either way. It's the basic digital note capture that I'm after. I don't even care what it sounds like acoustically. If I can do it with an 8 string, fine. If I have to acquire a 4 string, fine too. I would like to avoid spending a fortune here, but I can buy some equipment for this. I just don't want to buy something and have it be hard to use, or even worse, not work at all for what I want to do. Any advice would be appreciated.

[mandroid]

Each string is needing to be pitch detected separately [or unison pair ]

One possibility is steve ryders instruments, which, optionally, have RMC pickups in the bridge, and RMC offers the intenal solid state circuitry to generate the 13 pin output that Roland #synth modules want to see.

A roland GI 20 [1/2 rack] will convert to the MIDI standard, plus there is a USB #port. for connecting the Guitar Interface to USB port on your computer.

I have a couple pedal synth modules[gr30,33] and a 4 string , [not Ryder] havent bought notation from midi software,

MIDI is the agreement made amongst all the competing brands of gear so they can talk to each other..

8 string, #tuned in unison pairs sitting on one pickup .
top of the range > Brian Moore
http://www.iguitar.com/CustomShop/CustomShopModels.asp?guitar=P5


4 RMC double string pickups are on godin A8 ..BUT ARE USED MONO.
rewiring the thing as divided pickups and a RMC polydrive 2 turns the raw signal to a 13pin output outboard of the instrument. there would be a cable 8pin connecting the 2, but minimal modifications to the instrument itself.. [polydrive 1 needs a bigger hole]..

Call brian moore or steve ryder and talk to them about hardware , and then look for notation software, #in a big online music dealer .

as to how to use it? #typically it seems the box of software is handed to you.. #and #then I'm left on my own to figure it out the technical writers jargon in the manual..


I got my 4 string fitted to have 4 bridge pickups, and I can play midi instruments sounds, by picking the tone .
the midi cable also allows me to play out thru a midi keyboard with built in speakers .

gear has more cababilitys than I do..

[John Flynn]

Mandroid:

I really appreciate the information, but please understand that I am a technical novice here, so I only understood about half of your post and still don't understand what I need to do. Please, could I have the layman's version?

For the cheapest, most user-friendly set up to do notation, I just need to know:
What mando to buy.
What hardware to buy.
What software to buy.

[thistle3585]

For about a $1000-$1500 you can get a modular pickup system to fit a four string electric. It would be difficult to isolate the string pairs on a standard eight string instrument. I have heard of people recording into audacity and exporting the file and converting it to a midi file in another program, but with very limited success. Not sure how it was done exactly.
A friend and I have talked about going in together and building one with the sole purpose of renting it out to musicians and studios, but just haven't had time to do it.

[mandroid]

Cheap , no. #collecting the components to do it #isnt cheap.

Mandobird perhaps + GK pickup+GI Interface would be around $1K,

computer software is not simple , or my brain is still unsophisticated.

The guitar is the market for all the string synth stuff, and there is where you have to look .
big box walk-in music shops or online Sellers tech guys can help.

Perhaps there is a way to just convert Microphone USB to be read by the computer program without the MIDI step in the middle.

[thistle3585]

Ghost Midi Setup (http://www.graphtech.com/prodghost.htm)

Check out this site.

[arbarnhart]

I have done this with three pieces of freeware - Audacity, AmazingMIDI and PowerTab. First I did it with an electric and a coverter into the computer, but it turn out just playing my acoustic into the built in mic on the computer in a quiet room is just about as good for this purpose. I was using Audacity to record and then using "Normalize" (to be honest; I really don't know what that does, but it is sort of like the autofix on photo software - it is usually better after doing it) and exporting it as a WAV file, then using AmazingMIDI and converting the WAV to MIDI and then importing the MIDI into PowerTab. It was not 100% accurate, but it was better than 95% and the places where it messed up were mostly where I didn't sound a note cleanly. You really don't have to use Audacity and could just use the Windows Recorder.

I did not do a lot of chords, just an occassional double stop.

[mandroid]

FWIW, similar, different bridge piece-piezo >13pin output to roland 13 pin input. address here:
http://www.rmcpickup.com/products.html

[mandelect]

It is possible to convert captured/recorded audio to midi via software; though most will claim the ability to convert polyphonic input, to do this reliably means playing only single note lines (no double stops)! If you are playing trad tunes this may work for you. Can't remember which software I've tried but googling for "audio to midi software" will turn up a few options. In the end, I always found it easier to notate by hand. No special soundcard required but some method of inputting audio into the computer.

I have messed about using pitch to midi devices with mandolins for years; I still have a couple of Roland CP-40's - bought a 2nd as a spare but never opened it ....ever! The latency was very poor. Though you say latency is not an issue, it will cause problems for notation software and the end result will require lots of editing. Notation software usually requires some idea of a time signature - ie. you usually have to play along with a metronome and poor latency will definitely mess with the timing. Easier to do it manually - I use TablEdit.

I have tried using Lateral's Guitar Synth Software #- a fantastic bit of software which works polyphonically (double stops & chords work great), but again latency is a problem.


By far the most reliable way (and one of the cheapest) is using a Roland GK compatible pickup system and something like the Roland GI-20 which will talk to your computer and notation software. You could fit a GK pickup to a four string mando and this should work fine - the end result will always require some editing. The GK pickup is ugly but relatively cheap and the GI-20 allows you to transpose individual strings which means you could play mandola, octave mando or mandocello parts from the same instrument. There are some good deals available on the Roland GI-20 with the GK pickup, as a package. No special soundcard required but a midi input to the computer - I seem to remember reading that the GI-20 also has a USB output so maybe a USB port would suffice?

I am currently having a Synth Access EM-54 built by Steve Ryder; this uses RMC bridge saddles, as used by Godin for their Synth Access guitars - another option would be the Ghost Hexaphonic System, either in a new instrument or as a retrofit. These are much neater alternatives to the Roland GK divided pickup but they are both significantly more expensive. The saddle pickup system is unobtrusive and the electrics are built in to the Mando. I will probably get a GI-20 to use with this mando - the EM-54 has a Roland compatible 13 pin socket which requires a cable to connect to the GI-20 (the GI-20 actually does the conversion from the RMC saddles to midi), then a midi cable from the GI-20 to the computer.

Currently Steve Ryder and Brian Moore build synth access models as standard but most electric makers should be able to manage this. There was also a recent ebay listing for a synth access electric by Phineas Martin of Buckdancer's Choice. Though you do not need modelling or synth sounds, "Synth Access" means that the instrument has some sort of divided pickup system and a 13pin connector (a Roland standard) which is needed for the midi conversion hardware - Roland GI-10/20, GR-20, Axon AX-100 etc. The resulting midi output will talk to your notation software.

Sorry about the long post ..... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[arbarnhart]

I don't understand the latency issue when transcribing. I just used freeware and I had accuracy issues but latency was a non issue. The WAV file may have been encoded a few milliseconds behind the playing, but consistently so; notes played back sound for as long as they did when I played them and the intervals between them are the same. AmazingMIDI uses that duration and spacing to do the note on/off equences in the MIDI stream and PowerTab uses the duration of "note on" to determine what note type (1/8, 1/4, etc) to use. The stuff AmazingMIDI messes up on is sliding and string noises which get interpreted as bizarre short interval notes sometimes, though you can make it ignore suff below a given time threshhold (unfortunately, sometimes I mess up for a long time http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #).

[mandelect]

Agreed - latency is not an issue when using audio to midi conversion after the fact, but it is a concern with any real time pitch to midi conversion - though from what I've heard the GI-20 is pretty good.

[bennyb]

Hi Mando Johny,
Most of the above discussion is way over my head(did I say most?), but with my trusty tabledit(the paid version), I can convert any midi file to notation or tab of whatever instument, and edit the result - change keys, compose, copy, whatever. The free version won't do it, and I don't recommend the trial version(pain in the butt). So if you can get it to midi, the rest'll be pretty easy and inexpensive. Good luck and let us know how it turns out. Nfi.

Best, bennyb

[John Flynn]

bennyb:

I have the full TablEdit version and I agree, it is very useful. Now, if I can only figure out the "getting to MIDI" part! I will look into the Roland stuff described by mandelect above.

I am still open to other ideas, though.

[mandelect]

Good luck Mando Johnny,

Real time conversion and notation would always be my preferred method though I do think arbarnhart's method is very workable, and at a very low cost too! It is relatively easy to record audio into a computer, then convert the audio/wav file to midi via one of the many freeware programs out there. A slow(ish) process though.

I too have the full paid for version of TablEdit. This method has always worked best for me and it has also improved my skill at writing out music.

[John Flynn]

Yeah, I just re-read arbarnhart's post and I think I am starting to understand it now. I will try it before going to something more expensive. Thanks, arbarnhart.

[steve V. johnson]

I've done audio to midi to notation, with the pgm called Logic, which started life as a midi sequencer and then incorporated audio. #I haven't used it much in a while, so I don't know if it will still do it, but it does require some hardware to get the soudn into the computer, and that can go from sorta-cheap to not cheap at all.

But how about this... If getting the music to the page is really the goal, and the goal is not the journey of figuring out the software and hardware.

For probably much less than the expense and time learning to use the hardware and software, you could just find a music instructor or an experienced musician who can listen to any sort of recording (a cassette, fr heaven's sake...) and make you a trascription of it.

I have a town full of musicians who are more than good enough to do it and would love to have the work, and many of them have the stuff (simple or complex) to have folks come in and play down the stuff they want transcribed and then they listen back and write it out for you.

You can pay a whole bunch of software and computer engineers, whom you'll never meet <G>, or a single musician you can work with face to face ... # Maybe a method to consider... I think it would end up being cheaper and about as much fun.

All the best,

stv

[John Flynn]

sliabhstv:

I can't fault your logic. That would be one way to do it. I can also do the transcription myself. It just seemed to me that with the state of technology out there, this shouldn't be that hard. I think there is a market opportunity here for someone who could pull this technical solution together in one simple package and market it. I'm surprised someone hasn't done it.

[steve V. johnson]

Hey, Johnny,

Yeah, I think you're right about the opportunity. I got Logic some years back in part for its midi-to-notation power. I was doing a lot of midi work then and it was very easy for me to trade services with keyboardists who could play almost anything into the sequencer so that I could make it into notation from that. Early on it required a lot of correction.

Reminds me of an old recording studio saying: "Good, cheap, fast. Pick any two." <GGG>

Let us know when you get a system design that works for you? It will be a really valuable bit of info!

It sure would be great for getting variations of Irish traditional tunes onto paper!! (Everybody plays 'em differently... <GG>)

All the best,

stv