Lavalier mics

[Quavers]

It looks like Rhonda Vincent and Josh Williams are using lavalier mics on the Rage dvd. Anyone any idea which ones they use?

Anyone any experience of lavalier mics, and how they compare against the Schertler or AKG C411?

[Smyers]

A "lavalier" mic refers to a mic position, not a type of mic. #A lavalier mic means it is worn on a tie, collar, jacket or similar position. #The reference comes from antiquity of an old type of necklace/pendant.

I am assuming you mean a small mic near the f-hole of a mando, not a lavalier. #Right? #I have not seen the DVD to which you refer. #In all likelyhood they are using a combo pick-up made up of a piezo bridge pick-up and a mic, both through a little processor/mixer/EQ. #This is the most realistic type of close proximity pick-ups you can use. #You can choose to use both pick-up's or just one and mix the ratio of each. Fishman is one good manufacturer of these.

A C411 is a contact mic. #It won't realy be comparable to a combo pick-up, although AKG makes some good stuff.

[Scott Tichenor]

My setup (http://www.mandolincafe.com/archives/akg.html)

[steve V. johnson]

The "lavalier" mic, if worn on their bodies, might have been for the video crew, as in the ones we see on TV shows...?

stv

[bradeinhorn]

i use an ATpro7A for guitar and mando

[mandroid]

You may be able to put a lavalier [type of microphone] on the mando, positioned #so it listens to the sounds coming out of the sound hole.
Some discussion of countryman [one of many brands]#mini mics used in a situation like that, previously.

[Jim Yates]

Martin Carthy uses a relatively cheap mini mic (He called it a lavalier, I guess he didn't know the correct terminology as explained above) inside his old Martin guitar and it sounds great. I've tried a Radio Shack mic about the size of a pencil eraser. It was about $30 Canadian and it certainly sounds a lot better than any transducer I've ever used. I fasten it just under the bottom lip of the sound hole of my guitar or mandolin or on the dowel stick of my banjo with velcro. My wife fastens one of these on the back of her hammered dulcimer. DON'T try ripping it off without turning down the volume.

[Jim Yates]

I forgot to mention that if you play at very high volumes you will have feedback problems. You don't get the quacky sound that transducers seem to produce.

[Paul Hostetter]

Martin Carthy used exactly what Radio Shack rightfully and deliberately marketed as a lavaliere mic. It *is* a type of mic, even if the term is inexact at this point in time. All it implies is: a small omni, mounted close to source. The ones TV news "personalities" wear clipped to their ties and so on are still referred to as lavaliere mics. Everyone from Countryman to Sony to Radio Shack sells them and they can often be rigged easily to work as instrument mics with different mounting arrangements.

Scott Tichenor's AKG C406 is an excellent variant. (I wish he'd post a picture of one on a mandolin though.)

I have mounted jacks in violin tailpieces for people, and have also made outboard mounts for mandolins. I detest "carpenter” jacks, for a number of reasons, among which: they mar the instrument, they look terrible, and they often prevent you from closing the case.

I just spent the weekend at a festival with Scott Fraser, who is the sound tech for the Kronos Quartet. He says they're still using the Countryman micro-mics with good effect, though they also have Neumanns mounted in their music stands.

Any mic or pickup will feed back if you're not on top of your stage situation. Feedback is 99.999% pilot error, and usually preventable.

[Quavers]

Thanks for the comments. 'Lavalier' certainly seems to be a confusing term..thanks for the info on that.

On closer watching of the dvd again, Rhonda seems to have the mike attached to a clip which is attaching at the lowest part of the treble f-hole. Any ideas where I could get a clip that would do that and support a mini/'lavalier' mike?....without damaging the top...

Bradeinhorn - How did you attach your ATpro7A to the mando?

[steve V. johnson]

To play the terminology out again, a "transducer" is anything that changes one sort of energy to another. In this case, a pickup and a microphone are both transducers that change acoustic (mechanical) energy to electronic signals.

The transducer for which "quack" is most familiar are "under-saddle transducers," pickups that fit under a guitar saddle, but I guess from Blep's post that it happens with the ones under mandolin bridges, too.

But there are other sorts of pickups that are little strips of material that don't quack, mostly because they are mounted in other places.

Enough with terminology... <GG> I apologize ....

stv

[pickinpete]

I use the ATpro70.It has a belt clip for the power pack, which accepts a AA battery or phantom power. I attach mine with the included tie clip.I glued a strip of felt to the tie clip where it rests on the top and clip it right into the large hole on the treble side f-hole. On stage I run it into a art tube pre amp and in studio I run it right into the board. This is the most natural sound I have ever had, and is the most simple setup.The tie clip just slides right in and out of the f-hole just like you were clipping it on your tie and it the mic sits right in front of the f-hole.

[Jim Yates]

Steve,
I don't have a pick-up in any of my mandolins, so I'm not sure if they "quack" on a mandolin. I do have a first generation Fishman in my old D-21 and I hate the sound it produces. That's what I was refering to when I mentioned the quack. I guess I just assumed that a mandolin would quack too.

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Blep,
I think they -all- do, but I have a bit of a prejudice in that direction... <GG>

Pete,
That sounds like a great setup! Thanks

stv

[Quavers]

Yes thanks Pete, great post!

I've just placed an order for an ATpro70.....I'll post back what I reckon when it shows up.

[dougiebe]

I use the AKG C411 with good results. It's a contact mic that sticks on with some very sticky, black, gum and has come off cleanly each time. It sounds way better than a piezo (quack) and feeds back way less than a traditional mic on a stand (if you're using monitors). That being said, it will still feedback if the monitors are cranked or you lean into your sound source. Like the poster above said, if you position yourself correctly you can avoid most feedback. It also requires a phantom power source. I feel the C411 does a good job reproducing the natural tonal and woody qualities of the mando, however, I wouldn't say it's perfect.

-dougiebe

[mandowilli]

This may be what you ar refering to.

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Crown-GLM200-Mic?sku=481531

I use the Crown GLM 200 straight into a Roland AC60 amp that provides phantom power to the mic via an XLR cable. I then line out of the amp straight to the board. The amp is seated on an amp stand behind me and pointed up at my ears. I use the amp as my onstage monitor. My feedback problems are now history and this is the cleanest, clearest, and most authentic tone that I have ever had.
Instead of using the clip provided with the mic to clip to the f hole(it was too big), I took a small plastic clip from a cellphone handsfree earpiece and glued some felt to it and use that instead. When the gig is over, just unclip and put it away.
A note of caution. The GLM 200 is shipped with a 30 db boost gain at 100hz rolling off 6db per octave to about 4000 hz. A work around to defeat this that requires soldering a jumper is provided at crown.com. I had a pro do it for me.

[bradeinhorn]

Someone asked:
Bradeinhorn - How did you attach your ATpro7A to the mando?

I just attach the mic head to a piece of sticky patch and put it under the f hole. there are a lot of ways to do it creatively.

[steve V. johnson]

Hey Willi,

I haven't heard about the Crown GLMs in a while... They are indeed "great little mics"! A friend of mine has used them for all manner of instruments, and he's such a wirehead that he built preamps for them that run on a box of three 9volt batteries because he says that that power is much cleaner than any phantom or AC.

Well done, nice use of them.

If you folks can use phantom power or rig up a power supply, these are -tiny- condensor mics that are really true and honest-sounding.

stv

[pickinpete]

here's a couple of low quality pics of how i mount mine.The first pic shows where i glued the felt on the tie clip to protect the top.

http://www.billsbluegrass.com/clip.html

http://www.billsbluegrass.com/mounted.html

[jefflester]

Thanks Pete. Even with the low quality pics that's one of the most informative posts I've seen here about how to mount a mic to an f-hole.

[mando andy]

Could anyone provide any info on the difference between the AT Pro 70 and the AT341b---or are they the same??

Also-do you need the power pack if your preamp can supply phantom power to the mic??

Andy

[steve V. johnson]

I don't know the 341b and I couldn't get the AT website to cough up any info about it, but I've used the AT 35x Pros a lot and own a couple.

Either AT or the folks who sell the mics don't make it easy to tell the various flavors apart. The one variant of the 35 that is easy to distinguish is the "CW" version which is made to use with a wireless transmitter.

The other two main ones I know are different in that one has a cable (a little flimsy one) that terminates in a standard XLR, and this one accepts phantom power. The other one has a small calbe with a connector that goes to the battery pack box and another cable from there to an XLR. When shopping for these online it's very difficult to figure out which one is which, I always end up ask questions of someone.

I've always avoided the battery pack ones, so I don't know if they can use phantom power or not. Certainly it wouldn't harm them if it was on... That doesn't answer your question very well, does it... ? <G>

stv

[pickinpete]

Im not sure about the others but the reason I picked the pro70 was because they voiced it with acoustic instruments in mind, this is why in addition to the tie clip it comes with a guitar clip AND its power pack runs on a AA battery as well as phantom power. This way on stage I can use phantom power through my art tube preamp or the board and in church or the studio I can plug right in with the battery power.

[mando andy]

Sorry folks--but I got the model number wrong when I asked about the difference between the Audio Technica lavalier mics in this thread a couple of posts ago. I am wondering what is the real difference between the AT Pro 70 and the AT 831 lav mic.

In terms of frequency response:

AT Pro 70 ranges from 100 to 14,000 Hz
AT 831 ranges from 40 to 20,000 Hz obvioulsly a wider range for the 831

Now the question---is that a significant in terms of use on a mandolin --would I really even tell the difference between the two pickups??

I am on the verge of buying one or the other. Right now I am using a Fishman Piezo pickup that I stick right on the soundboard with putty and run that through an ART Tube Channel Preamp--EQ, compression, limiter, etc --- lots of "power" (the sound guys have to hold me back) and use this on both a Triggs A5 and a Gibson '21 A-2.

Any advice or info on this would be appreciated.

Andy Morton
Madison, WI

[Michael Wolf]

I recently tested a mini-mic that I didn't know of to this day that a sound man recommended it to me. They use it on stage a lot for vocals and instruments. It's a Danish maker: http://www.dpamicrophones.com/
I own a Schertler and a L.R. Baggs Paraacoustique preamp and I took it to the shop for a comparison. I tried it a few hours and I have to say that the Schertler sounds a bit like a telephone compared to this mike, and that's only with heavy EQing. Without EQ the Schertler sounded like rubbish (sorry) in this test. The mic sounds good right out of the box.
I play a Flatiron A5 and a Resophonic Tenor. The other nice thing is that you can use this mic for everything, also a reso-instrument and it very easy to switch, much much better than the Schertler again. With the Schertler I damaged the finish of two of my instruments.
I don't know if DPA is available in the USA, but it seems to be a great mic. It's very expensive, but still cheaper than the Schertler and you don't have to invest in an additional parametric EQ to make it sound good.

Cheers
Michael

[mando andy]

I just talked to my sound guy at church concerning switching from the piezo Fishman SBT mounted to the top with putty to the AT 831 using mini condenser and he said to remember that feedback issues could result because of the monitors. Several other instruments are amplified--so the mic might pick those up also. Anyone have any experience with using these condenser mics with other plugged in instruments or monitors??

[mandowilli]

Andy,
Feedback from the monitors is a big concern if you go this route. Before going to my current rig (see previous post), I routed my mini mic signal to the board and inserted a 31 band eq into it so that I could notch the bad guys out of my signal. This worked moderately well but required much attention and also resulted in a loss of the frequencys that were bad guys in the monitors but good guys in the mains.
Another approach is to use a dual system consisting of a mini mic and a pickup. Send two signals to the board. The mic goes out to the mains and the pickup to the monitors. The down side to this is that you only get to hear the quacky pickup sound onstage.

Be sure that the mini mic you decide on is hypercardoid or cardoid at the least. This will assure that it is picking up the sound in front of the mic and not the sound from the sides and back too, as a omnidirectional mic will.

[pickinpete]

#Anyone have any experience with using these condenser mics with other plugged in instruments or monitors??
Everything on stage with me is electric and we do use monitors.Sometimes feedback does occur..but only if im standing right on top of the stage monitors. If im on a smaller stage I point them 30 degrees out and have no problems even at higher levels.