Flying Fingers

[Coy Wylie]

After several months now and my 3rd instrument, I am a certified mandoholic. I realize 40 is a little late to take up something new but I find the challenge has been stimulating.

Now on to my question. I pick regularly with a very good guitar flatpicker. He's been very helpful in pointing out some technique issues in my playing. The one thing that keeps popping up is how far my fingers move away from the strings when they are not playing.

I have large hands and I never seemed to notice this in all my years of playing guitar. But he's certainly right about mando. He tells me I am playing very fast for my skill level but I could get much faster if my fingertips didn't move so far off the fingerboard when they are not fretting notes.

The only drill I know is to play with my fretting hand close to a hard surface like a door facing. Has anyone else had this problem or do you know any other drills to help overcome it?

[c3hammer]

I'm in the exact same boat you are. I started at 40 and have been at it for about two years. When you start to get it and can play a lick at a jam at speed you'll be in 7th heaven.

I had the flying fingers problem at first as well. It is not as big of an issue as some might lead you to believe. As you progress and relax, your hand and fingers will naturally become more efficient and stop "flying" so far. I've found that after you've been picking a tune for a couple of years it becomes such second nature that your fingers barely move from the strings.

The key is to play super slowly and work tirelessly on relaxing everything that isn't absolutely necessary to make the note. Tension, or the combination of tensions that you are experiencing now will start to subside over time and things become much easier.

It takes lots of conscious effort to get there though. At least for my death grip style it did http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif It's well worth every moment though.

Cheers,
Pete

[peterbc]

I'm in a different boat, a young wippersnapper and been playing about 4 years. Most of my fingers are fine but my pinky likes to go all over the place so I've had to make a concious effort to have it move as little as possible. It's starting to get a little better. I'll second going slow and relaxed.

Peter

[Ted Eschliman]

If you're really serious about tackling this, here's an exercise that is not for the faint of heart, nor weak of digit:
Guides & Gravity (http://www.tannah.net/ted/proof/g&g4.pdf)
Key to this:
*No open strings.
*Try to connect the notes as much as possible. (You MUST keep the fingers "at the ready," close to the frets, maintaining a sense of phrase or line.)
*Take your time. (Work a few measures at a time)
*Treat string crossings (5ths) as double stops, preparing for the second of the pair BEFORE playing the first.
Good luck!

[Coy Wylie]

Thanks Ted. I printed this and will begin working on it tonight.

[Tbone]

Concentrate on staying relaxed, and play slowly as others have said. Also, keep your fingers down until you HAVE to move them - if you're playing an asending run, you keep all your fingers down until you have to move them to the next string. By keeping the fingers down, I mean they are still fretting the notes and everything.

[LeftCoastMark]

I was watching the video of a concert with David Grisman and Doc Watson a while back, and Grisman's finger's were flying all over the place. I couldn't figure out how he could play a thing with all of that motion, but he did....

...so go figure.

[mandorado]

Like most [artistic] rules ... they should be learned and mastered before they are broken. I think the Dawg has been free to break the rules for a long time. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[GBG]

I posed this problem to John Moore about 2 years ago, and he told that if you are hitting the notes you're trying to play, don't worry about it. Form follows function. I think he looked at me and all my grey hair and thought I was probably beyond correcting!

[Kelly_guy]

I got the same feedback from my teacher, Sims Delaney-Potthoff. He said that if it's working, then go ahead and play that way.

I've tried those fingerbuster exercises, like the ones on Chris Thile's DVD, for reducing finger motion to almost nothing. My problem is that I simply can't stretch my fingers to cover a scale, without moving the other fingers. This is on a Martin with only a 13" scale length, too. So my other fingers have to move to some degree.

Yeah, Grisman's fingers fly, so do Adam Steffey's.

The story that Sims told me about this was from when he played a gig in northern WI with Jesse McReynolds. He thought that Jesse looked really stiff and tight when he played, so he asked for some technique tips. Jesse's advice was basically to forget about that stuff and just play.

[craigtoo]

Hey mandohack...
Thanks for the exercise...! #I had a relevant technique question....Something that's been buggin' me for a while and this exercise really pinpoints it.

How do you cleanly and (eventually quickly) play a string crossing for a 5th. #In this exercise it would be the transition from the first to the second bar, on the 4th finger. #Do you lift the finger and refret? or do you flatten out the first joint of the pinky finger and "chord" them both. #Or do you roll the fingertip from one course to the next?

This isn't just a problem for me on the 4th finger, but on all fingers. #What's a good strategy?

I can't seem to do any of them cleanly....which way should I practice it?

Any ideas?

Thanks,
craig

[Coy Wylie]

Thanks Craig, I was going to ask the same question. Ted?

One thing I've started working that is helping my left hand a lot is playing fiddle tunes without my first diget. Using the last three fingers of my left hand only is helping me train that disfunctional pinky.

[Ted Eschliman]

How do you cleanly and (eventually quickly) play a string crossing for a 5th. #In this exercise it would be the transition from the first to the second bar, on the 4th finger. #Do you lift the finger and refret? or do you flatten out the first joint of the pinky finger and "chord" them both. #Or do you roll the fingertip from one course to the next?
How about this for an answer:
Somewhere in between!
Seriously, you can't go to either extreme. Unless you're some kind of freak, you probably can't hold a double stop with your pinky, while keeping your first finger "at the ready" 4 to 5 frets away. It's simply not realistic.
However, having to move it into position (from out of position) risks that "frack" sound--the sound of a note not cleanly produced, let alone incapable of sustain.
So the idea is the nanomoment the string is struck with the pick is when you are full force tension on the note. The other is released (with the left hand) virtually the same nanosecond, and if done properly, is virtually undetectable. Holding the 2nd note down all the way is close to impossible, but that's no excuse for not having it "on deck," conceptually. Think of it as an incremental "rocking" of the finger from the 1st to the 2nd note.
Honestly--I'm not saying I can do it perfectly, but the improvement I've seen in my own playing from weeks of working the drill is undeniable.
This really is a "concept" exercise--the end result training your fingers to keep a "spread" low and parallel to the fretboard when not acutally holding a note.

[Coy Wylie]

Thanks Ted! Keep it coming.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

I realize 40 is a little late to take up something new but I find the challenge has been stimulating.

Oh stop that. Age doesn't matter. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I took my first piano lessons at 5.
Studied Trombone and played in the school band starting at age 9.
Started Guitar lessons (Classical) at age 15.
Added Bass to the mix at age 17
Continued with Jazz guitar lessons at age 19
Picked up the Chapman Stick (http://www.stick.com) at age 30
Started playing bluegrass music on guitar at age 42
Re-discovered mountain dulcimer at age 43
Fell in love with Mandolin last year (having just turned 44)

You're never too old to start working on any goal. I remember when I was 27 and regretted not going to college. By that time I could only go to school at nights since I had an apartment and car and such to pay for (no kids luckily). My uncle and I were talking and I remember telling him "At night school I can only take 2 or 3 classes each semester. I'm going to be 35 before I finish my degree. I remember his exact words. They were:

"But you're going to be 35 anyway. Do you want to be 35 with or without a college degree?"

So I went back to school and got degrees in Applied Math and Computer Science. It's never too late to start following a new passion. That's what makes us feel alive (as you are finding out. It is, indeed, stimulating)

Oh by the way, to stop flying fingers, use a metronome and practice playing slowly with perfect technique.

Now go play your mandolin! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[craigtoo]

Ted Wrote:
"However, having to move it into position (from out of position) risks that "frack" sound--the sound of a note not cleanly produced, let alone incapable of sustain. #So the idea is the nanomoment the string is struck with the pick is when you are full force tension on the note. The other is released (with the left hand) virtually the same nanosecond, and if done properly, is virtually undetectable."

Thanks for that! # Cool...I'm not too far off on my thinking....So let me see if I can explain this....just to make sure i get it! #If I go from a "D" (5th fret) on the A string to a "G" (5th fret) on the D string...with the 3rd finger. #I should think about releasing the 3rd finger immediately after playing (picking the string) and then, as quickly and as efficiently as possible, refretting the at the 5th fret on the D course to prepare for the "picking" of the D string.

I get that right?

Thanks for your patience...
craig

[Ted Eschliman]

Bingo, Craig.
The idea is IF you have to think (or react) to your placement for the second note before your release the first, you're already too late for a clean, connected sound on the second. Really you're "anticipating" the second.
I've been mulling over all the prior "objections" to worrying about the "flying fingers" issue, and it occured to me, not all styles really need to worry about this.
For example, if I'm attempting Radim Zenkl's "Twin Peaks," laden with gorgeous hammer-ons & pull-offs, you NEED to lift the fingers. Probably inches. This would also be true of Celtic ornaments and Bluegrass "gymnastics."
With that bit of disclosure, I still think if you want to play efficiently and with good tone, classical, jazz, choro, etc., attention needs to be placed on a "Stealth Bomber" left hand. Low, fast, and undetectable on radar...

[craigtoo]

Thanks Ted!

What does the #"7 pulls to 1....4 pulls to 3...." etc. on the top left of this exercise mean?

Craig