'23 Loar

[bootinz]

'23 Loar= $185K! Here we go on next price hike! I love it!

[Jim Garber]

Where...how...Details?

Jim

[bootinz]

Check the Cafe Classifieds. It was just posted today.

[Gibsonman]

I think things are getting a little out of hand. I also think the market is starting to fall. There has been several real good mandolins on the Cafe for sale lately, and it looks like to me that they are still for sale. With all the real good stuff that has been up for sale, and not selling, it,s telling me something.

[Links]

I think when someone asks that kind of price, they are just fishing. #However, you never can tell when someone will bite and then a new "bar" is set #- #at least for a while. #As a general rule (for many collectibles), if the price goes up real fast, it can also go down real fast. #As a collector, I would like to see things steadily increase in price rather than shoot up very quickly.

Then again, I don't own a Loar!

[Professor PT]

I've got a feeling that it will be around a while. I think the last Skinner auction was for at least fifty grand less, no?

[cooper4205]

do you think the july 9 date has to do with the higher price?

[F5G WIZ]

do you think the july 9 date has to do with the higher price?
I would say that definitely has an impact on the price. I agree that they are probably feeling out the market to see who will bite and for what price. Don't think I would cough up the extra 40 grand for the July 9th date. I would just get the cheaper loar and order a couple Gils with the change.

[danb]

I don't think that price is fishing.. it just looks like a hike because it's the first one on the cafe at that level. Several others of that calibre have sold for prices near that mark (a few above). It's all down to supply & demand anyway, with the Loars the demand is just there I suppose! That is a nice instrument.. I played it a couple times at festivals as the owner is very generous about letting folks try out his Loar- some of the photos at the archive came from the day I tried it out at Wintergrass 2005 if memory serves!

[Tom C]

It seems the mando market follows the housing market. What's the relationship? $$$ It seems the mando hype was greater a year or 2 ago than it is today. Even here on the cafe, we used to have a larger number of folks posting, More mando builders, Top $ for established luthier mandos....So my prediction is prices of these should be stablized at the most.

[bootinz]

I don't think it's "fishing". If someone pays the price that's what it's worth.

[Jim Garber]

Ad #20023

Jim

[JamesBryan]

Here's to you Colonel Kevin -- Ka-Ching! Jim

[bootinz]

Roger, James! But I DO like my Sullivan too!

[Gail Hester]

I encourage everyone that doesn’t know, to take another look at who the seller is, an honest, respected and hard working champion of bluegrass music. #He knows what he has and what its worth for sure.

[bootinz]

I agree. Craig is an honest man. I have done business with him and trust him completely.



Kevin

[kudzugypsy]

well, i was lucky enough to spend an afternoon with that mandolin when Tony Williamson had it (before he took it to IBMA and sold it). it has really been played and shows it.
at first, i will say that yes, that price was a little sticker shock, cause it was i *think* in the $120K range only 2 years ago -
now, that being said, i will tell you, that is the BEST loar i have ever played - it was a monster, very different from the other loars i've played and one of the few i thought was worth the money (at the old price TW was asking)

- regardless of condition, that one has the chittlin's

[fishdawg40]

Please excuse my ignorance but who buys these? It's a little upsetting *and frustrating* that the price is so high (like many other mandolins). It seems as if the owner of this Loar is a player, but how many other Loar owners, that aren't professional musicians, actually play them? I do not want to pigeon hole all loar owners as stuffy old collectors, but it's hard for me to deny that this may be the case, but then again I'm probably wrong.

[cooper4205]

on occasion, don't some players have very expsensive mando's given or lent to them by collectors?

[Chris Baird]

It find it strange that people seem to think that if one can afford a Loar that one can't play, is stuffy, out of touch, etc. Just because a person can get the funds together for a Loar doesn't implicate any kind of disposition, activity, personality, or etc. And, as to the folks I know who have bought Loars it has been a major purchase, not at all pocket change but rather life's savings. To some degree, if you've got the money, say it is your retirement, you can park it on a Loar, play the thing for awhile, and then when you need the money it will probably have increased in value and will be easy to sell.
The asking prices of the aforementioned Loars are inline with what they are going for.

[f5joe]

Amen to Chris Baird.

(Dear Lord: Please, please bring me this mando!)

[Jim Garber]

Another Loar ad# 20038 "The Schultz Loar" same price.

Jim

[jjboone101]

Wow, 3 Loars in the Classifieds at the same time! Has to be some kind of record.

Lots and lots of pics of the Schultz Loar on Dan's archive as well as Jamie Wiens site. Believe Jamie spent a few months with this Loar, making measurements and sketches to perfect his jigs and construction plans...

[Scott Tichenor]

Sorry, down to two from three. For the record, there was a July 9 sold almost a year ago for $180K and I know of one just recently that went at that price. Then there are the few over $200K. Talk amongst yerselves.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Nolan]

I heard a Loar sold a few years back for over a million dollars.

[bootinz]

One day, they'll all be worth a million.

[Links]

Because I (or some of us) may think the owner may be "fishing", it is certainly not a knock on his honesty, integrity, or anything else. #If I had it, I would probably be doing the same thing. #Sometimes when you really don't want to sell something, you just hang it out there with a big price and see if there are any takers. #From Scott's and a couple of other's posts, this may not be the case at all. #It may very well be the going #price.

I was under the impression that a couple sold at auction in the last year or so for closer to 100K plus premium #- #still a far cry from 185K. #Maybe they had some issues.

A question I have is "if a mandolin sells at auction for 100k (plus 20% buyers premium)(120K total) and the consignor receives 80k (100K less 20% seller's commission), is the mandolin "worth" 80K (the amount the seller receives) or is it worth 120K (the amount the buyer pays)?

[Professor PT]

It's worth what the total cost is, of course. It's kind of like sales tax; someone gets stuck paying it, so it is part of the "value" or the purchase price. As for Loars, two hundred grand, a million: what does it really matter? Only the filthy rich can afford either price. It's just like the 100 million dollar paintings; someone has decided they are worth that much, so therefore, they are desireable.

[Darren Kern]

I've wondered if it would ever be a bad idea to go in on buying a Loar with a very close friend/musician buddy or two, with legal docs spelling things out, etc? I've got 2 very good friends that are musicians (not mando players) and understand the value of an instrument like a Loar. Like Chris said, what could it hurt, you can always get your money back out of them. Probably a dumb idea but one can dream. Oh, and in my opinion, they are not overpriced, and it's not discouraging to me at all that they are so expensive. I think it's awesome that we as mandolin players have such a holy grail out there that is so desirable by so many.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Prices are dependant upon the market. #I think this Loar will sell for the asking price. #

I made a record "buy" price when I bought my first Loar.. $6000 in 1976. #It was the Griffith Loar, of Atlanta GA.

There are many folks in this community that are either
a:Very wealthy by normal standards..watching
b:somewhere in between..maybe I'll buy a Loar, I have the dough
c:wishing and hoping..I think I can....maybe..(where I started)
d:really interested parties that have no monetary chance of buying a Loar at this stage of their life
e:just kids...stringing things along and posting here

and...we never know who is really posting what

There are some really nice Loar mandolins for sale at this moment, and you will not see this happen again any time soon

Yes, when they are bringing big money..they come up for sale, But...It is not too often that a really, really good Loar comes up for sale. #That is the concept that is being missed by the general mandocafe community


The Fern Loar for sale is unquestionably exceptionally nice. #And, there is a July 9 for sale, along with the March 24. The community and the rest of the market will determine whether the asking prices are correct.

I think they are.

[cooper4205]

do you think a loar could approch stradavari violin price in a 100 years or so?

[kudzugypsy]

Links - here is another consideration to throw into the mix: i was just reading the other day that the good old IRS is REALLY going to start going after profits being made in the *collectibles* market. i cant recall the exact tax rate, but it was somewhere near a 50% tax on collectible appreciation gains. when you start talking this kind of money, you are no longer in the position of telling a buyer - i want that in cash please. there are certainly well documented bank transactions at those figures. that is certainly going to be a big shock when you bought a Loar for 20K in the late 80's and have a fat capital gain of say $150k and the government takes their 49% in taxes.

i too, have the same question about the true value, and i dont doubt the value is always going to be the gavel price at auction - but still, the money the SELLER walks away with is all that really counts.

[Links]

Kudzu:

I think that the taxes on collectibles would be based on "capitol gains" rate, which would be a lot less than 50% #- #more like 15% at todays rates (I think). #That is for long-range rates, so you would have had to own the instrument for over a year. #Still stinks!

I tend to think that the real value of an instrument is what the Owner walks away with after all is said and done. #If you can sell one for 185K with no commissions or auction fess, then it is "worth" 185K. #Otherwise, it is worth what you walk away with (my opinion anyway). #Kind of makes you wonder why one would put one in an auction.

I totally disagree with ProfPT that only the "filthy rich" can afford these things. #I would venture to guess that most of the Loars in existence are not owned by the "filthy rich". #(by the way, some filthy rich folks actually worked their butts off for their money). #I am not close to being rich, but I could find a way to buy one if it were my top priority (and I was not married).

[Professor PT]

Well, maybe not filthy rich--well-off, eh? You have to remember that many bought years and years ago or inherited theirs. Even with inflation, six grand in '76 is a lot less in today's dollars than two-hundred grand. Regardless, Loars are cool, and if they can fetch that kind of money, so be it.

[Willie]

Darren aka Hydrilla....Not a good idea, I tried that back in `72 and the "Partner" got shipped to Texas and for my share of the Loar he paid me what I had put in plus a Gibson `50 F-12...which I later sold for a nice profit but I never did get to keep the Loar at my house even for a day, I played it a lot because he also played fiddle so when we played a gig I got to use the Loar...A fellow here on the Cafe now owns it....I wouldn`t go in partners with anyone any more on a instrument...Think it over before you do it....Willie

[Bob DeVellis]

I think it's reasonable to say that the Loar itself is worth what the seller gets. The sevice the auction house provides is worth something, too, and a charge is added, accordingly. What the buyer pays is not only the price of the Loar but also the price of getting access to it, some provenance regarding its claimed authenticity, and so forth. Not all of these ancillary fees are a great deal and, psychologically, the buyer may just consider them part of the cost of the instrument but in reality, the represent the cost of the instrument plus related services. As an example, do private parties add the cost of tax to a private transaction on the assumption that the tax one would pay at a dealership is part of the instrument's value? I supect not. I'm not trying to be contentious, just giving my view of the total cost breakdown.

[Chris Baird]

It really depends on which side of the coin you are looking at. Is the seller paying for the services or is the buyer?
I see it as the seller is paying part of the value of the instrument to have someone sell it for them. It would be unreasonable for the buyer to accept that they will be paying more than the value of the instrument just because it went through an auction house. Likewise, it would also be unreasonable for a buyer to insist that if no auction house is involved that the price should be proportionately lower.

[testore]

Links,
You need to always remember that an auction is never an indication of market value. It is a liquidation process. Auction activity does reflect market activity, but at wholesale and retail prices respectively. I see this in the violin world at WAY larger sums. The reason for this is simple.Auction houses never give gaurantees of anything. It's always "buyer beware". One never knows authenticity, condition, or any other details until the item is in the hand of the new owner. Only buy what you know and if you don't know enough to buy a Loar for 120K with no gaurantees, pay the 180K from a respected,known expert and get the gaurantee that what you just bought is truly a fine example bla bla bla and reap the rewards later of your investment. The 60K made in the middle is called "profit". There no crime in making a living selling fine instruments. Also, there is enormous risk in paying an auction house 100% of the buying price(the don't take payments) and waiting for the item to sell. It may take 2 years to make your profit. There's never a gaurantee of when a buyer is going to make their way into your establishment to make the purchase.
Gary

[Links]

Quote:
Likewise, it would also be unreasonable for a buyer to insist that if no auction house is involved that the price should be proportionately lower.

Chris - not necessarily. IT is fairly common for prices to be reduced if the seller does not have to pay commissions, auctions fees, etc. For example, if you look at Mandolin Brothers web site, they always have two prices - cash or check and credit card. Obviously, they are figuring in the cost of the credit card transaction and reducing the amount of the instrument by that amount. I don't do it often, but I have inquired before if a "discount" was possible if I paid by cash or check.

Bob D - you present a very credible argument, but I still disagree (although I acknowledge that I am probably wrong). I guess it all depends how you define "worth". My argument would be just because you pay a certain amount for an item, that does not assure that it is "worth" what you paid for it. If you pay 185K for a mandolin one day and have to turn around six months later and sell it for 150K (through an auction or broker), then what was it worth. I guess it is a silly argument anyway - they cost what they cost regardless what you or I think the real "value" is!

[kudzugypsy]

my error - i did a quick tax search and got this:

Long-term capital gain rates for collectibles will remain at 28 percent.

it was during a trip to the dentist office that i read about the IRS crackdown, and i needed to double check that figure (one of those things you half read in the waiting room). i knew it said collectibles were NOT taxed at the same % as regular capital gains. they were basiclly saying that the IRS was really going to start looking hard at the tax shelters weathly people were using, including the investment in collectibles like cars, rare coins, and yes, vintage instruments.

[Glassweb]

The Loar F5 is, in my "slightly" biased opinion, the closest thing the mandolin world has to a Stradivarius, Guanerius etc... Also, it is the closest thing the genre of American String Instruments has to the greatest signed Italian violins mentioned above. These factors, plus the fact that mandolins are hotter than ever and the fact that a great Loar truly is a fantastically made, tonally complex stringed instrument, all add up to great desire for these mythic mandolins. Let's face it... Loar was only at Gibson for a short time and he signed very few of these style 5 instruments. Today, even fewer exist and many of them have been "messed with". When you see an instrument like the "Schultz Loar" with a seemingly "elevated" price there is a reason - it's an incredible and rare instrument with an excellent track record as an investment. They ain't making any more of em' gang! Remember - the Loar F5 has become "the violin", and by that I mean it has become the model and standard by which every other mandolin is constructed and judged. Most players want an F5 mandolin. That's what I think anyway! Play on y'all...

[Glassweb]

And let's not forget what's happening to the Loar era roundholes...

[Links]

Kudzu - my mistake too. I thought collectibles were the same as other long term capital gains. Makes no sense why they are not.

Just to get on my soapbox for a second - why in the world, if we have to pay capital gains on collectibles, are we not allowed to deduct expenses incurred hunting them down or deduct losses when the price goes south. I bet there are a lot of "Franklin Mint" collectors that would like to recoup, some of their "investment" with nice tax deductions.

As for me, I'm voting for the Linder/Boortz "fair tax" proposal if we ever get a vote. Meanwhile, I'll just pay all my taxes and complain!

[harmonist34]

Most states (if not all) technically require that you pay in-state sales tax on any out-of-state purchases that were not taxed. So does that mean that any mando is worth 6%-8% more than the price that's paid, since the true cost is (read: should be, legally speaking) that percent higher at the end of the day?

Andrew

[Professor PT]

I bet there are a lot of "Franklin Mint" collectors that would like to recoup, some of their "investment" with nice tax deductions.
Well, I've got all of my money tied up in those collectable plates--you know, Elvis and Star Trek. They are traded on the prestigious Bradford Exchange! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Links]

ProfPt:

My mother had a stack of "collector" Christmas plates (maybe also traded on the prestigious Bradford Exchange) that I inherited. I promptly took them to an antique dealer friend of mine and told him if he could sell them for $1 each please do so, or if not, give them away to folks as a "premium" for buying something else. He did not want to take them, so I had to threaten him. I think he still has them!

[danb]

I've been funnelling a lot of my otherwise investment cash into instruments. It's a lot of fun to have them appreciating and also to be able to play them!

[uncle ken]

You should save all of your receipts for expenses related to your collection like repair, insurance, etc. because you can use that to adjust your gain later on if you sell.