"Mandolin" tunes.

[craig]

Being that Bill Monroe founded bluegrass, why do you always hear reference to "Fiddle Tunes" but never "Mandolin Tunes"?

I'm probably just showing my ignorance, but is there such a thing?

Which tunes?

craig

[evanreilly]

Monroe would often say he only knew one tune on the mandolin; that being 'Rawhide'.
In fact, his 'Bluegrass Breakdown' was originally recorded as a mandolin lead; it later became a banjo tune tho.
'Southern Flavor' was recorded as a fiddle tune, but it became a mandolin tune, going thru a few changes.
Several of the tunes on the 'Master of Bluegrass' album I consider mandolin tunes.

[danb]

I think Mon's influences were fiddles, but what he did on the mandolin is certainly unique to and exploring the eccentricities of the instrument. Staccato syncopated breaks, double stops, chopping chords during the tune, etc.

The same question comes up a lot in Irish music regarding mandolin vs tenor banjo- there is definitely a body of style that only works on a mandolin or mandola, that won't translate to fiddle or tenor banjo very well- the usually unexplored territory on mandolin is getting legato vs stacato notes, use of chords & double stops, drones, strumming & picking techniques, hammer-ons & pull offs, etc.

[craig]

dan,

so are you saying that you think monroe's tunes could/should/would be considered "mandolin" tunes? #along that same line, couldn't you argue then that bluegrass tunes are "mandolin" tunes since they begin with mr. monroe?

i guess what i'm gettin hung up on is that you often hear reference to "fiddle" tunes from mandolin players, but i doubt fiddle players are sayin' "now i'm gonna play an ole mandolin tune." #is it that these so-called fiddle tunes have been around before "bluegrass" (i.e. mr. monroe)--before mandolin was used in old-timey music?

what makes a fiddle tune a fiddle tune? not the techniques used to play them? i mean, you could pick up the mandolin and pick out the same tune. is there something in the way the tune is written that makes it a fiddle tune?

lastly, what makes a "mandolin" tune?

[evanreilly]

Monroe wrote a lot of tunes for specific instruments, mostly fiddle tunes. #But there are some specific mandolin tunes, 'Rawhide' being the most common. He also wrote tunes for the banjo.
Monroe was really an old-time fiddler who played the mandolin. #He played hundreds of older fiddle tunes, in addition to the vast number of tunes he wrote for all the blue grass instruments.
There is a lot of overlap, of course.
Then there is his unique piece 'Trombolin', for trombone and mandolin.

[David]

Kentucky Mandolin

[Oren]

Regarding "fiddle tunes," we are talking about music to dance to. My understanding is that the fiddle was used to play dance music for some centuries, often unaccompanied, throughout Europe. The only rivals to the fiddle for common people's dance music were the bagpipe, the hurdy-gurdy, the pipe and tabor, and maybe the hammered dulcimer and the harp. Certainly, other intruments were played, including other plucked strings, but for dance music in taverns and marketplaces, it was the fiddle or the above instruments that were most popular (until the accordion knocked them all out as the "people's dance instrument".

This continued in the American colonies with tunes that had been brought from England, Scotland, Ireland, and maybe France and Germany. The fiddle was small and portable, and was relatively loud. It could provide good, rhythmic music, and with the use of drones, sounded fairly complete by itself. The tunes were pitched in fiddle-friendly keys such as G, D, and A, and many of them may have been composed on the fiddle.

When the mandolin became popular from the late 19th century on, the "fiddle tunes" that were well-known and popular were attractive to mandolinists. Gradually, mandolins and guitars joined fiddles and banjos (which had already been appropriated for dance music) to form string bands. Bluegrass grew out of that. But I don't know how much mandolins were ever used for dance music before the advent of microphones and amplification.

There were many "mandolin tunes" that were written during the mandolin craze of 1880-1920, but they apparently didn't have the appeal or the centuries of tradition behind them, and we don't remember them. Many of the melodies we know as fiddle tunes are hundreds of years old, and have been preserved by fiddlers.

That's my take on it.

[craig]

oren,

your "take" sounds pretty factually based. thanks! so, fiddle tunes are just older and pre-date mandolin, at least mandolin in folk/americana/old-time/contradance or whatever you call it. and, what would be considered "mandolin" tunes are either newer or are adaptations from fiddle tunes. that's the info i was looking for. interesting stuff.

cheers mate,

craig