CNC and Collings

[ortha]

Hi gang, this is my first post. I've been playing mandolin for 6 years and my A-9 for 3. Question. I was looking for an upgrade and was considering an F-9. Most recently I was looking at the Collings MT gloss top and was reading Frank Fords (Gryphon)2001 tour of the plant. On the last page he shows the mandolin construction and to my amazement, almost the entire process is done via CNC machines. I realized they come into play with modern instrument building but I had no idea that they do almost everything. The A models are snapped together with a little glue like a model, soundboards braces and all. Is this standard now a days? When I read the description of the A-9 on Gibson's website they say the soundboard is "tap tuned" which, to the best of my knowledge, is a hand done process. I still think Collings mandolins are great but I would like a little more insight into what other medium to large name manufacturers are doing all CNC. My first thought is that this is why Collings mandolins offer a lot of "fit and feel and sound " for the money. Very curious.

[SternART]

There is a great article on Collings in the current issue of The Fretboard Journal.

[Professor PT]

I don't know how much CNC Gibson uses. I gather from the posts here and there that it's certainly less than Collings. I am curious too at what things are done with CNC @ Gibson. If you're looking to upgrade to an F-9, it would be only for the scroll. I love mine, but it probably sounds a lot like an A-9. Collings are great sounding as well, and of course, well made using computer technology.

[John Flynn]

I just re-read that article and I didn't get that most of the mandolin work was CNC. It showed a lot of CNC work on the guitars and a couple of laser operations on the mandolin.

Music Folk is my local acoustic music store. Thier co-owner, Andy Ploof, is a great mandolin player, teacher and repair guy. Linked below is a pictoral of Music Folk's visit to Collings in 2003, two years after the Ford visit. It states clearly on page 2 that "Because production numbers are smaller, the mandolins are still practically built by hand."

http://www.musicfolk.com/docs/Features/Collings/Collings1.htm

In any case, CNC is just a tool. It eliminates drudge work and is more accurate for some things than hand work. It's the finished product that counts. A lot of great luthiers are using CNC today. The DIY network show with Lynn Dudenbostel showed him using a lot of CNC. Dan McRostie, who builds Red Diamond, uses it.

[ledmandlin]

I just took the Collings tour a month ago and want to say a few things. What a great bunch of people, there. As a longtime carpenter and cabinetmaker, not to mention acoustic instrument freak, I loved what I saw in Austin. The CNC is not to be dismissed as some kind of cookiecutter affront to "real" luthiery. It is, in fact, quite a marvel, allowing a large number of mandolins to be built with assured attention to detail and consistency, which, clearly, a lot of players want to know is built into their instrument.

With exacting attention given to all the details which have nothing to do with the CNC process, from carving the backs and tops to exacting specs (all of which are recorded and cross-referenced) to binding, finishing and setup--except that they proceed from a relatively flawless foundation--there is a reason Collings mandos (instruments) have the continuing reputation they have--they are, fundamentally, excellent and, quite often, superb. Enjoy discovering the Collings difference.

[mandroid]

Before that, 3D pantograph duplicarvers replicated a pattern .
A builder I met, bought some F5 patterns #when the Gibson #Kalamazoo plant closed.

that being said, removing the bulk of the lumber with some automation, leaves more time to carefully work the material down to its finished form and tone.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Jim Hilburn]

Some of the most revered builders who have been at it for 30 some years and some of the new breed of builders just making a splash have something in common with Collings, CNC. It's just another tool that you have to master and apply to make the best instrument you can.
However, I don't see it in my future.

[BigJoe]

Gibson uses a minimal amount of CNC work on the mandolins. Most operations are still done the old fashioned way. Not a comment on how others do things, just an answer to a question.

[Eric F.]

For what it's worth, the last Collings I played was a monster. So was the last Gibson!

[JEStanek]

Pick up the latest issue of Fretboard Journal. The article on Bill Collings makes it clear to me that the right tool for the job is key but most often that right tool is a hand tool being used by a person. Bill Collings just seems to have incredibly high standards and accepts no less from his employees.

To me, it's crazy not to use a CNC to get most of the rough carving out of the way before you go in by hand and finish shaing the plates. If you can afford it great!

Jamie

[troika]

I have MF5 #121. It may be the most perfect mandolin; blonde (no place to hide), perfect goemetry (after 2 years; still perfect). ABed against a bunch of high-end mandolins. Photos shown on Frank Ford's website http://www.frets.com/FRETSPa....d.html. (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Gryphon/NewInstGallery/Mandolin/Collings/MF5Blond/mf5blond.html.)
Point; I am the original owner of a 1992 Collings D2H dreadnaught guitar and this incredible mandolin. CNC not withstanding, Bill Collings is a luthier nonpariel.

[troika]

http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Gryphon/NewInstGallery/Mandolin/Collings/MF5Blond/mf5blond.html

[Nick Triesch]

A few months ago I took the Taylor guitar factory tour with my son. It was fantastic. They use many CNC machines. But all they really do is cut the main parts to perfect dimensions before all the hand work and assembly is done. Man can cut out near perfect tops for a guitar but a CNC machine will produce perfect tops. Of all the mandolins I have seen in my life, Collings are the most perfect instruments I have ever seen. But if I were to choose between a Collings MF5 or a Gibson distressed Master Model........I would go for the Gibson!!! Cool factor involved. Nick

[fredfrank]

The Collings MF5 isn't really in the same price point category as the DMM. So, given the choice, I'd pick the DMM too. If I had to write out the check, though, I'd be more inclined to go with the Collings.

Even the Collings Deluxe--top of the line--isn't priced in the same category as the DMM. I couldn't say which one I'd prefer, having never played or seen a DMM, but if they are all people say they are, I'm sure they are great.

I will say one thing about Collings instruments--they are amazing instruments just to look at. I think the perfection is something I appreciate as much as some people appreciate the distressing of the Master Model.

[the_guitar_guru]

I was out at Elderly a couple of weeks ago and played amongst many things a Collings MF5 Deluxe V and a Gibson DMM. Seeing the 2 side by side; nothing jumps out on the Collings saying it isn't as nice because of some CNC work. In my opinion the Collings had the superior action. To get a mandolin to have that light of action it has to be precise and true; enter the benifits of CNC. If Collings didn't use as much CNC maybe the MF5 Deluxe V would also be over $20,000 like the DMM. Both were flawless examples and beautiful instruments with each having their own look, sound and feel. I know this was said earlier but Gibson has used replicating machines for roughing in tops and other parts and uses minimum CNC on their mandolins. CNC is not a bad thing and a manufacturer should not be faulted for using CNC.

If you want a true handcrafted instrument hook up with a single man or woman shop who does it all by hand. It should be expected that a manufacturer is going to use advanced tools to aid in the process. Many single luthier shops make a beautiful first class instrument for much less then a DMM or a MF5 V Deluxe.

[250sc]

Unless your worried that it might fall apart why would you care how it was built?

Just play a few and make up your mind if it plays and sounds the way you think it should.

BTW, I was at elderly on Friday and they had a killer MF the made everything in the room ring.

[Kevin Briggs]

Perfection? The Collings F styles I've seen and played don't have finish on the underside of the scrolls.

$11,000 for that?

[JonT]

In reference to the action on the Collings guitar_guru mentions that he played at Elderly a couple of weeks ago, this:

I was told by Steve at Acoustic Music Works when I bought my MT a couple of days ago that Bill Collings himself does all the setups on every mandolin that leaves the Collings shop. Apparently he's pretty picky and wants to be sure that things are perfect. If true, that's a good thing!

MT arrives tomorrow. Heh, heh.... Can't wait!

Peace - JonT

[Nolan]

Perfection? The Collings F styles I've seen and played don't have finish on the underside of the scrolls.

$11,000 for that?
Most builders don't finish the inside of the scroll... many don't finish beneath the fingerboard extension either.

[the_guitar_guru]

Bill Collings himself does all the setups on every mandolin that leaves the Collings shop. Apparently he's pretty picky and wants to be sure that things are perfect. If true, that's a good thing!

I have heard that as well; not a single Collings at Elderly played just mediocre. I think that so few of them make it up for sale on the Cafe Classifieds or E-Bay because they are so nice. There are quite a few F5-G's and Master Models currently up for sale; maybe that is because there are a lot more Gibson's in the world? I do see a lot of Weber's for sale; wasn't so impressed with the Weber's.

I do think the new Gibson Goldrush at $6,500 looks really nice though I haven't met 1 face to face as of yet. A thing in favor of Gibson is that they invented the whole F style and most companies are copying them; Collings included though I think Collings is doing it really well. It would be a tough choice between the Goldrush and a Collings MF 5 F at $7,200.[I]

[Kevin Briggs]

I think there will be turnover with any mandolin that is a production or semi-production mandolin. Collings, Gibson, Weber, (formerly) Rigel, are all semi-production mandolins.

One explanation for the amount of Webers in the classifieds is they offer a significantly wider range of mandolisn than the other forementioned companies. They offer a heck of a lot of options that can reduce the price of a mandolin. STE really is the most diverse mandolin-making company in the market.

The Weber mandolins typically for resale are the lower-end models. I rarely see a Fern or Big Sky for sale, although it certainly happens. I also see Gils for sale, and Gibson MMs.

[mandopete]

Perfection? The Collings F styles I've seen and played don't have finish on the underside of the scrolls.

$11,000 for that?
The MF-5 ain't anywhere near that price. I paid $7200 for #39 when I bought it in 2002.