Varnish

[bluegrassplayer]

I'm getting close enough to finishing my IV kit that I am looking at different types of varnishes. On the International Luthiers Supply website they have an oil varnish that they say to use for fiddles and they have a guitar varnish that they say to use for guitars and mandolins. What it the difference? What would be the eaciest to buff of french polish?
Also, with the water and alcohol soluble stains, will I have to have some type of sealer?
Here is what I'm looking at.
International Luthiers Supply varnishes (http://www.internationalluthiers.com/varnish.php)

Thanks
Micah

[buddyellis]

My guess the only difference is the violin varnishes are colored, and the guitar varnish is not. If you are wanting to FP you need to use spirit varnish (shellac based) not oil. I used Bullseye amber shellac on my first IV a style, and think it was a very good finish. I have used a mix of the amber shellac as a base on my F5 and the blond as an overcoat too, and I think that has worked better. Just make sure to give it adequate cure time (1 month minimum is my guess) or it will scratch very easily initially.

Practice FP on another piece of wood, although if you screw up the finish with spirit varnish, its nothing alcohol and fine steel wool wont remove very easily -- thats one of the saving graces of spirit varnish, it's ease of repair / removal. I have just finished the leveling on my IV F5 prototype (no sand throughs finally!) and I might get some photos up tonight after I put the meguires polish to it.

IMO Spirit varnish is the way to go, its relatively easy once you figure out the process, and if you use denatured alcohol without methanol (the stuff in lowes I think is denatured with isopropal instead) it's pretty non-toxic as long as you don't drink the stuff, plus it doesn't smell up the house if you are working on your dinner table like I was. Oil is a close second as far as friendliness, but it still stinks up the house (nowhere near as much as lacquer though)

Re: sealers, I do not know. I didn't use sealer on either of mine and both were a bear to stain on the spruce (the maple is pretty simple) I've heard of people using everything from egg whites to a super thin cut of shellac as a sealer, and I might try it at some point on a piece of lowes spruce lumber as an experiment. Alot of people don't use sealers either (sunburst for example) and just use very dilute stains worked slowly.

[troy]

Gail,
I assume your reasoning for staying away from violin varnish is because you don't want your mandolin to look like a violin. It would follow that if you like that look, then violin varnish may well meet your needs. Correct me if I'm wrong.

troy

[Michael Lewis]

Might be time to call the fine folks at IV and ask about the differences between the varnishes.

One thing to keep in mind is that many violins can function very well with softer varnishes, while most guitars and mandolins get handled more vigorously and need something a bit harder for finish.

[Burner]

I used the basic standard clear oil varnish for mine and it dries hard but takes a while to dry compared with spirit varnish - But it was much easier to apply as it brushes on better.

[PaulD]

I recommend you get some Spar Oil Varnish.
An added advantage of using Spar Varnish is that it typically has UV inhibitors and handles expansion/contraction for those times that you leave your mando out in the weather for extended periods. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Seriously... I don't have first hand experience using spar varnish on mandos, although I've got more experience that I care to think about using it on wooden sailboat spars, paddles, and other boat parts. I would think that what makes a spar varnish good for the weather might be undesirable for instruments. That said, I can't knock the look of Gail's mandos so my concerns may be unfounded.

pd

[g_mc]

In the for what it's worth deptartment, spar varnish is often recommended/used as a finish on the tops of piano soundboards.

[PaulD]

Gail,

....but you are the only one I listen to http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

mandopLuker (still drooling over you H5)
I understand the "Still drooling over you." but is the "H5" a code for something? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Paul

[buddyellis]

Well, not to be disagreeable but you can apply French polish over just about anything and in particular over oil varnish, Loar F5s as a reference.
I realize that, but you cant use oil varnish to FP, as I'm sure you know the process uses spirit varnish (and I wasn't sure if the original poster knew that you can't use oil varnish to FP with). Obviously you can FP over anything that shellac will stick to, which is, well, practically anything. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

-b

[Bill Snyder]

I understand the "Still drooling over you." but is the "H5" a code for something? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Paul
Paul forgive me if you were just joshing but I think mandopluker was refering to the mandola in this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=27980;hl=h5)

[Bill Halsey]

Phenolic resin is one of the common ingredients between modern spar varnishes and the older commercial q-d (pre-alkyd) varnishes in use in the 1920s. Sand lightly after each of a couple of coats. If you're hoping for that wonderful old craquelure look, then generously pile on the FP after the varnish dries, but before it has set too long. Think: "production line."

[PaulD]

Paul forgive me if you were just joshing but I think mandopluker was refering to the mandola in this thread. (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=7;t=27980;hl=h5)
Curious: Yes, I was just giving Mandopluker a hard time due to the common typo of dropping the "r" off "your". I knew what was meant. He's fixed the typo since my post.

I remember that thread and saw the finished pics that were posted yesterday... definately a drool-worthy instrument! I'd love to hear it in real life.

pd

[Jim Hilburn]

There are some big names in the mando game using spar right now.

[buddyellis]

What is the reasoning of using an oil varnish as the base? To increase the hardness of the finish in general (I gather oil finishes, while taking longer to harden, end up significantly harder than spirit varnish will)

How long should one let oil finishes dry before FP? (Several weeks i'd guess?) Doesn't that effectively double your waiting time on your finish curing, as FP takes several weeks-months to get near final hardness too?

[barry k]

Is there a way to decrease the cure time for oil varnish ? I have heard that violin makers used to set the instruments in direct sunlight, is that true?

[Stephen Perry]

UV cabinent. Ours fits a cello or gobs of violins. Uses tanning salon bulbs.

[Rick Turner]

There are a lot of loose terms being thrown around here re. varnish. I think it would be great to read actual brand names. One company's "spar varnish" could be very, very different from another's. Also with violins, the varnish formula is worked out to help tame high frequencies, while that may not be the aim for mandolins and guitars. I don't think you'll find varnish harder than nitro lacquer actually. It may be more resiliant and tougher, but probably not actually harder.

Then there are long oil varnishes and short oil varnishes...

And spirit varnishes are basically shellac with the addition of a soluble resin...and sometimes a drying oil such as tung, linseed, or walnut. And of course, in the violin world the main ingredients of varnish are smoke and mirrors...

[Dale Ludewig]

I would agree with Rick. There are so many terms being thrown around that one not aquainted with the variety of things called varnishes would be sitting there wondering "what?". There's been many a thread here about finishes and varnishes and all such. They all have different properties. I will dare say this though- no polyurethane. You can never get rid of witness lines. Some spar varnishes are harder than others. They are preferable if you're going to do a varnish undercoating strategy and then finish with FP. But the varnish has to harden and cure so that it will powder when you sand it. Otherwise it's still gummy. Ycch. A mess.

I would also agree that varnish may be slightly more flexible after curing, but I don't necessarily believe it's harder than nitro. Nitro definitely can get brittle, but with the right formulation, it holds up just fine. As to acoustical differences, let the arguments begin. Again. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Rick Turner]

Well, Gail, maybe that's an attitude that shows something is wrong with both the mandolin world and the violin world...too many smoke and mirror secrets. If you dare come over to the guitar world I think you'll find that most of us are willing to share every scrap of information we know. There's not a material or source I wouldn't share with you and everyone here. It's what you do with the information that counts.

[Dave Cohen]

Alan Carruth once referred to the violin world as "ossified". Imo, the mandolin world is not that bad (yet?), though it might be described as 'cartilaginous' - kinda heading toward ossification. For that matter, while the guitar world is more open, not everyone in it is as collegial as what you see at a GAL or ASIA convention. There are a few guitarmakers of the smoke & mirror persuasion.

[barry k]

sorry peeps, but i have to ask giannaviolins two more questions.... On your UV cabinet, how do you regulate the temperature and what effect, if any does or would this have on nitro or plastic binding and glue joints on a mandolin? thanks in advance, little off the original subject

[Rick Turner]

Gail, I've run into this in both the mandolin and the banjo world where the keeping of secrets seems to be thought a valid way to market oneself. I just don't like it; never did, never will. I have as yet to see anybody revealing much about favorite varnishes here. OK, there's the usual suspects...Behlen and IV. But now that you've answered my virtual challenge, I note that you've still not said what your secret ingredient might be. I suspect it's skill, not the brand of your varnish, but yet it is rather disingenuous for folks to talk around the point, but never come to it. If we're to get somewhere in the advance of the state of the art rather than attempt at lording secrets over one another, then the kind of scrupulous open exchange found in the guitar luthier world would be of great help here in the mandolin world.

My challenge to all is to talk openly, talk ingredients, talk brand names. Don't hide behind coyness or secrets. It's bull.... and it hides, perhaps, a feeling that false secrets are all you have going for you other than obvious but not unique skills. How many people can make a good F-5? Lots of them. So I guess secrets are what make some good and the others less than good. Or am I missing something here?

And yes, I'm an a..h... for saying all this. So be it.

[Michael Lewis]

Rick, one of the main reasons there are many "secrets" and so much smoke circulating around mandolins is that so many folks that have incomplete information tend to repeat it as "the answer". For example, the use of the term "varnish" is so over used and misunderstood. We now have people using spar varnish for finishing mandolins. Maybe it is OK if it is kept very thin, but it is too flexible and never truly hardens enough for a good mandolin finish. It is designed to be used on boats, out in the weather, to stretch when the wood swells and shrinks. Or, spirit varnish, since it has varnish in the name "it must be good". I think you can see what I'm trying to say here. Incomplete information can send a lot of folks down a wrong road. I know, I have been down more than a few of them. Another aspect of the smoke and secrets problem is that many folks are reluctant to admit they don't have the depth of knowledge required to really understand or explain what they are doing. By leaving the answer vague an air of mystery is created by default. Less knowledgable folks might think there is a secret here, and maybe there is, but if there is no one knows it. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, or a sales gimick if it is imbellished, polished, and spun.

[Stephen Perry]

sorry peeps, but i have to ask giannaviolins two more questions.... On your UV cabinet, how do you regulate the temperature and what effect, if any #does or would this have on nitro or plastic #binding and glue joints #on a mandolin? thanks in advance, little off the original subject
The cabinent gets too hot at the moment. #Only trade violins are going in. #I'm going to pop it up off the floor a little for a larger intake area and increase vent area at the top. #It is very new and still in the refinement stage. #More heat coming off than anticipated from the big flourescent bulbs.

On varnish, most of the people I meet are pretty dang clear on what they're using on violins. #At least in person. # The materials at least. #So much is technique in making and technique in applying. #And that's difficult to describe.

As to mandolins, I'm never sure what people are talking about. #The Eastman line seems to have a shellac based spirit varnish as a basic finish. #Probably something like the 1704 formula posted on the web. #Good, perfectly reasonable production varnish. #

In our commercial work, we use whatever commercial oil violin varnish we can get at the best price, then learn that varnish. #Thin with a suitable solvent if really required, which our current stuff (I think it came from Howard Core - probably Joha or similar cooked oil) doesn't require. #Kerosine is good for a solvent, for example. #If I want it soft and lush as it builds I'll add a little more Venetian turpentine as the finish builds. #

Now I would use this on a mandolin, but I would expect it to wear off. #The spirit varnish on Eastmans is also pretty soft in comparison to what I usually see on mandolins and guitars. #I'd probably be happy with Behlen's Violin Varnish on a mandolin, a good quality spirit varnish. But I'd expect it to go away under hard use.

Given the expectations of guitar & mandolin players with respect to gloss and durability, I have to wonder whether most would really be happy with soft varnish finishes. #They get beat up pretty quickly. #But the commercial oil varnishes are easy to use and build pretty well. #

I tend to focus on the system rather than just one layer. #Primer (wood treatment/prep). #Wood coloring (e.g. UV treatment). #Sealer. #Ground. #Paint/color (pigment in medium). #Clear/tinted finishing layers (varnish). #Whatever terms one wants. #But the entire system counts and needs consideration. #Whether having a slow drying oil (e.g., TruOil) soak directly into wood is what you want. #Whether you want the color in the wood or in subsequent layers. #

As an example from the violin world, one can UV the white instrument to get the wood tanned, skip priming, seal with shellac, fill (ground) with rottenstone in liquin, buff with dry pumice, dust off, then apply oil varnish with mulled in pigments, finish off with clear oil varnish containing softners, and then do whatever surface treatment you like. #French polish or whatever. #

Another approach would be to age the wood with dichromate, seal with shellac, then apply spirit varnish with aniline dyes.

Both these approaches end up with a "varnish" finish, but are extremely different.

[PaulD]

M. Lewis wrote:

We now have people using spar varnish for finishing mandolins. Maybe it is OK if it is kept very thin, but it is too flexible and never truly hardens enough for a good mandolin finish. It is designed to be used on boats, out in the weather, to stretch when the wood swells and shrinks.

This is what I was wondering "out loud" when I posted a few days ago; a "typical" spar varnish is designed for conditions that should be avoided for mandolins. I certainly wouldn't make the claim that they are bad instrument finishes... I don't know enough about finishes and their ideal properties for stringed instruments. So far in this discussion there are builders whom I respect that land on both sides of the argument which leads me to believe that spar varnish may not be optimal but it's probably works pretty well.

Then there is the question raised by Rick & Dave as to what does "varnish" mean. It's such a catch-all word. Chris Minick, writing for Fine Woodworking (http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00063.asp), explains varnishes very well but he's writing about furniture where protection and appearance are the primary criteria.

Obviously what everyone needs is the "secret" Gibson varnish recipe because it will instantly add $5,000 to $10,000 worth of tone to your instrument! Or maybe it's the flowerpot... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Paul Doubek

[Rick Turner]

Michael, you and I are not only in the same video, we're on the same page!

In the guitar world, I see a lot of makers who are pretty damned good; they make wonderful guitars. Then I talk to them, and I come away thinking that they have no idea why their guitars are good. The theories are just off-the-charts weird. They've hit a kind of a formula in their building that works; they just don't know which part of what they're doing is contributing to the success of their instruments. Weird, but... And it may be in that context that people grasp upon something like the secret varnish formula or the North pointed workbench or whatever, and that becomes the secret that makes their instruments superior. Come to think of it...that North pointed workbench would work for my Compass Rose ukuleles...Yeah, that's it! But I'm not going to tell you if it's magnetic North or true North...

[Jim Hilburn]

Rick, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the violin folks are trying to tame the high frequencies. I'm pretty sure that's what varnish on mandolins is all about. Otherwise why not just lacquer them and be done with it.

Steve, if you make a soft violin varnish, and handle the instrument gently, what's to keep it from being imprinted by the case material. That's what happened to me when I tried a straight sprayed shellac finish. I think it may have held up had I given it a month or more or had a UV cabinet. But I was able to sand the damage without getting into the color and finished over it with Behlens Rockhard, which Steve turned me onto a few years ago and is a viable option. Both instruments I did with it sound great and it's tough as nails.

Also Rick, we engaged in a discussion of waterbased finish earlier, specifically KTM-9. I believe you began frequenting the board after I started a thread about the benefits of it but in a later thread, you dissed it for all the inherent problems it can create.
But for me, the 2 instruments I used it on seemed to get the sound I would expect from a varnish but with a lot less grief for someone like myself who hasn't had the chance to experiment endlessly with varnish and the techniques of applying it and probably won't have too much time for it in the future. And it seems as though it will last a lifetime. I sprayed it but they say you can brush it. It's another option for all you IV kit guys.

[Stephen Perry]

Imprinting remains a problem, even on commercial instruments coming in. One of the reasons we built a big cabinent. I have a case imprinted mandolin at the moment in varnish (not my varnish). I'll fix it, then pop it into the UV cabinent for a day and see if it looks more aged in. I expect it will from a combination of a little heat and the UV flux. Seems a rather high UV flux! I suppose if I ever desire a tan I can just get in the cabinent for a few minutes. It is big enough for me to fit!

What's interested in violins is that they seem to be quite good played in the white. The key may be just to not screw up what's already there.

[Rick Turner]

My experience with waterborn finishes was such a disaster 10 years ago that I vowed never to use the stuff again until Bob Taylor says it's the stuff. I've seen so many reports to the effect of "Yes, we were wrong about the last generation of waterborn lacquer, but now we've really got it worked out..." that it's like the boy who cried "Wolf". I've seen a fair number of recent waterborn lacquer jobs, and I'm still not impressed. If I had to drop back to finishing without a spraybooth, I'd probably go with varnish over tung oil or French polish. At least those finishes are "marketable" with a perceived value that can be "sold" as valuable benefits to customers.

Just a note, by the way, for those who do want to try spirit varnish, you don't have to sand as much between coats as you do with oil varnishes. With the alcohol solubility, each coat "burns into" the last. With oil varnishes, you need to sand to break through the slick surface and help mechanically bond one coat to the next.

I used Behlen's spirit violin varnish on the neck of the guitar I made for Henry Kaiser to take to Antarctica, and it held up admirably. I sprayed it on. The only thing I didn't like was that it yellowed a lot, and over the blue veneers I used on the peghead, they turned green after a year or so. The blue color was to represent the blue ice...ancient ice that has been so compressed that all the air has been driven out of it. The rest of the guitar was French polished, and that held up reasonably well, too. No checking at all, just the usual dings of bouncing a guitar around Antarctica on a ski-mobile. Normal wear and tear...:-)

[peter.coombe]

Mmmm, I think some of you should find out who is using Spar varnish on mandolins before you start knocking it! #However, Spar varnishes are certainly not created equal. #I tried the only oil based Spar varnish I could get here in Australia and it took forever to dry (i.e. months). #I am not willing to wait months for the varnish to dry, but if I could hold of the the other Spar varnish I would use it in an instant. #Unfortunately it is classed as a flammable paint so is almost impossible to export from the USA http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[Rick Turner]

I don't think anyone knows what spar varnish we're talking about here or what's in it. What brands are people using? What's in them? There is no real definition of "spar varnish" other than someone recommends it for use on spars. That means absolutely nothing in today's world of marketing.

[thistle3585]

Here's my experience with marine/spar varnishes with brand names attatched.
Helmsman's Spar Urethane Varnish- absolutely horrible, sticky stuff. Feels like plastic.
Captains Varnish made by Petit-goes on great but had adhesion issues with epoxy undercoat which resulted in peeling, however I have seen it used with great results and understand it to be of the highest quality.
Epifanes- good stuff,very high solids content so it needs thinning
Z-spar-Awesome stuff. Has held up well in saltwater, extreme temperatures, submersion and the occasional impact. Four coats applied over bare mahogany and its held its sheen for several years. I thought I'd try this on my next mando.

[Michael Lewis]

In an attempt to NOT be misunderstood, I'm all for whatever works well, and if someone has great results with spar varnish my hat is off to them. WHICH spar varnish and who is using it? Or is THAT a secret?

My take on finishes is that they need to provide some degree of protection to the wood, not cause a mess, resist some light wear, and not hamper the tone production of the instrument. With regard to the tone aspect I have had some really great results with oil varnish, very good results with spirit varnish, and good results with lacquer. On the protection side the lacquer comes out on top and the jury is still out on the other two. When I use oil varnish it results in such a thin coating it offers very little protection other than sealing the wood, but it sounds great.

It seems much easier to get a great looking finish with lacquer with much less work. I have been working on acouple mandolins, getting a french polish on top of the oil varnish, and trying to make them look nice. Lots and lots of rubbing. Hours. They will sound very good, look nice, and be fairly thin skinned. Not quite as thin as the finish or lack thereof on Mr. Bill's F5.:laugh: Maybe it is time to try some of that Behlen Rock Hard stuff.

Regarding modern finishes in the USA, our Environmental Protection Agency has caused the discontinuation of many chemicals that were industry standard and made many products dependable. It is a good thing that these chemicals are not used anymore but the finishes they were used in now have other chemicals in them to take their places, and so are not exactly the same finishes that they once were. What exactly is a spar varnish nowadays? Shellac is still the same as it has been for hundreds of years, so that much is dependable.

Rick, regarding Henry Kaiser's guitar, did you use straight shellac for the french polish or did it have other stuff in it?

[Stephen Perry]

This varnish article (http://www.claudiorampini.com/php/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=26)discusses the Byzantine finishing system. My experience and a moderate amount of experimentation on resonant wood strips indicates that primer, sealer, and ground all influence tone. I am least happy with the primers I've tried. Any suggestions most welcome.

[Dave Cohen]

OK, this thread has gotten technical enough that it seems necessary to distinguish fact from fiction. The best technical article that I know of to date is the one by Martin Schleske. The reference is

Schleske, Martin; "On the acoustical properties of violin varnish"; Catgut Acoustical Society Journal, Vol 3, No. 6, (Series II), November, 1998, pp27-43.

For those of you who are technically phobic, there is only one equation in the entire article. It is strictly an algebraic formula, i.e., no calculus, differential equations, or etc. Further, you can read at least most of the article without referring to the equation at all. Schleske describes a method for camparison of finishes using small test strips of spruce. You cna use his method (qualitatively, at least) "without any test equipment except a good pair of ears". In his article, he used test equipment, for your benefit. He tested three types of varnishes: (I), alcohol, or "spirit" varnishes (resins desolved primarily in alcohol), (II), "Essential oil varnishes (resins dissolved in "turpentine oil"), and (III) "fatty oil varnishes" ( resins dissolved primarily in, e.g., linseed oil). The article also covers "ground" recipes and methods of application, including number of "coats". Among his conclusions are that the varnish is not as important as the method of application. Following is a quote from his conclusion section:

"If a violin makeer is convinced about his varnish and keeps it a secret, the trade "secret" will not be the varnish itself but the way it forms an acoustical unit with the instrument in the white."

Schleske found number of coats to be important, as well as drying period, etc.

Rick is only partly correct in saying that oil varnishes are mainly about taming high frequencies. Most of the taming of high frequencies in violin family instruments is accomplished with the sound post. But finishes in general are damping, and that damping is somewhat frequency dependent. Essential and fatty oil varnishes do somewhat more "damping" than, say, spirit varnishes, but again, that is highly subject to the method of application, or what Schleske refers to as the "palette".

So my point, strongly supported by Schleske's article, is that there is no finish or combination of finishing materials that will will give you a magical or "trade secret" result. For that matter, it is now generally acknowledged that there was no "secret" in the varnishes of the old Italian makers. You would be far better off figuring out your "palette', i.e., a method of applicatiion or "finishing schedule" that gives you a good result, regardless of finishing materials used.

[Stephen Perry]

Thank you. The finishing schedule described in the article I cite above is a nice example of the application effects. A variety of materials have the same or close enough effects if applied in the same way. For example, I used to make vernice bianca, described by Sacconi, for a sealer. Echoed sort of by Nagyvary citing things lost in my notes somewhere that plant gums formed a sealer in old Cremonese work. Several workers like the vernice bianca approach. The sound difference seems quite clear to my ears. I got tired of making the stuff and tried simplified recipes on test strips. If I recall correctly, this included vernice bianca, nothing (no sealer), gum arabic in water, egg white, and hide glue. The closest to vernice bianca in sound change, being essentially identical, was dilute gum arabic. Just a single coat. That's what I use now. The effect of many coats is much different and I don't like it. The ground doesn't seem to like it. But that one coat works very well for me, at least with the ground I use. Which is oil varnish with fine mineral filler. In that, just a thin ground seems to work best, and the exact carrier doesn't have too much to do with it. I've tried liquin, other commercial glazing mediums, and various oil varnishes as mediums. And tried pumice and the Rubio material for the filler. Same result if I use the same application.

I've found that thinking carefully about the multiple steps gives me the best result, and varying from my usual steps produces irregular results.

Now some of the best varnish I've seen is on Kelvin Scott's violins. But it is probably pretty soft!

[Rick Turner]

Michael, the FP I used on "Miss Antarctica" was in the Eugene Clarke style...a bit of walnut oil in with the shellac which was blonde flake that I mixed up myself. I used a bit of the same oil on the pad for lubrication.

Dave, thank you so much for your more technical approach and for your knowledge of the violin varnishes.

Steve, that's a very interesting article.

I find that the schedule is incredibly important for the modern catalyzed finishes I use a lot in my production work. The timing between coats, for instance, the timing of moving from pre-sealer "tie" coats to urethane sealer to polyester top coats can make or break the whole adhesion issue.

[Chris Baird]

The two main oil varnishes that are in use are Captians Spar and Behlens Rock Hard. Both dry hard. I've used Captians in conjunction with UV lights and it dries faster than shellac and quite hard, even a bit brittle. There are numerous successesful builders using either of the above mentioned finishes but I think it is up to them to disclose their methods and materials.
I read Schleske's articles and I gather from them that there is indeed a measureable acoustic difference between various materials. The idea, according to Schleske, is to use finish materials and methods that do not significantly increase dampening. That principle is probably more important in plucked instrument above bowed.
I don't have the equipment to properly test q values but there are hints in sound spectra that can indicate increases in dampening. Namely a general lowering of the modes and a broadening of the bandwidths.
In my experience Captians Spar varnish has the least effect on both what I hear and can measure between an instrument in the white and completely finished.

[Jim Hilburn]

I don't want to mention anyone by name, but a person I recently took some instruction from mentioned Epifane. Also spoke highly of the new Bullseye french polish.