Song List for Performance

[harwilli55]

I want to pick your brains http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

With the line up of talent on this forum, I can think of no better place to get experienced, well-reasoned, thoughtful tips from this line-up of pro's. I have learned more from this forum than I care to admit http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

1. Not specific song lists, but when you are preparing for a performance(and I realize that many of you can waltz onto stage, play a performance without preparing a list)

A. What is/are your goal/s with the song list?
B. How long is a good set?
C. What makes a Good Set? What makes a bad set?
D. What adjustments do you make rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, to make a so-so or bad set into one that works?

I know these are very general questions. But these are the questions I have every time we perform, which is not very often and proably too much time to think about it.


Thanks for any and all input.

Harlan

[ourgang]

Wow!! Good questions.

Please understand that I am speaking from a Bluegrass point of view. Your music may be different and my opinions may not be applicable.

Your main goal should be to please your audience. Dress appropriatly, look nice, the people who paid to see you deserve it. Don't wear sunglasses, make eye contact with the people.

The goal of the song list is to give the appearence that you know what you are doing and to keep the show from "dragging". When you do your song list, be sure to list the songs that you know the best. You don't always follow the list song for song, you will usually get a feel for what the people want to hear and change it accordingly. I've found that the traditional tunes are the best. Stick to Monroe, Flatt & Scruggs, Stanleys, Martin, etc. and you can't go wrong. I've heard many people comment on bands that they sure were good, but they're not Bluegrass. Again, play to the audience.

A normal set at a Bluegrass festival is about 45 minutes. 12-14 songs will cover that, but be ready for a call-back.

Any time the people like you, you've done a good set. I don't think that there really is a "bad" set. You're bound to struggle through a set now and then, but if you can determine what made it a struggle, you can work that out. If you think that you've done a bad set, sit down and talk it out and determine what made it bad.

I don't know what you mean by "throwing the baby out with the bath water". Even if you are having a bad set, you can't just walk off the stage, you have to finish the set, doing the best you can. Just make sure that you're not trying to play over your head.

I hope this helps. Good luck.

[Stillpicking]

A. What is/are your goal/s with the song list?
# # # # # #B. How long is a good set?
# # # # # #C. What makes a Good Set? What makes a bad set?
# # # # # #D. What adjustments do you make rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, to make a so-so or bad set into one that works?"

Harlan, This how we go about putting a set list together

A. Quality performance is the number one goal above all, this means that if you have not practiced a tune enough to be sure you will nail it don't put it on the list, add it when you and the band really know it. Variety is important mix it up don't pick tunes that are all in the same key and tempo and time. Try to throw in a waltz or a slow tune even if it is not your cup of tea. Remember these floks have come to listen hey might like a tune that may not be your band's favorite.

B. We usually do a set for about 20 min. which for us is about 10 tunes. We always have more on the list just in case, we also mark 2 tunes to ditch in case we run out of time. Add a little talk about each tune if it fits and feels right.

C. Variety, variety, variety make a good set list.
A bad set list is one without the above with lots of tunes that are new that the band has not practiced. Tune ,Tune and retune, don,t have everyone tune to each other have everyone tune to a decent electronic tuner and then make sure that you all are on the same page so to speak. Avoid feedback nothing worse than that high pitched feedback jump out at the audience.

Plan your set list way ahead of time and play through it as much as you can stand that is the only way you will know if it is right, it also will give you time to take out the tunes that don't work. Try to avoid adjusting on stage. If you have a bomb of a tune then either play through it and make a joke at the end or just say nothing. It might have been bad in your ear but the audience might have thought it was slightly off. Never stop a tune because of a missed note, word or chord just play throught.

Good luck and above all have fun.

[JiminRussia]

I agree that you don't always play the song list exactly, but I just hate it when the band takes ten minutes to decide what they are going to play next. Keep the flow moving! Don't make for long pauses between songs. If the next song requires a retuning by someone (like the b@nj@ player), use tht time to do your talking to the audience. Tell a joke, sell your latest home made CD, ask for requests from the audience, but be prepared to not know any of the songs that they suggest. If you are a little unsure of doing the request thing, then ask the audiene if they would rather hear (insert song name from your list here) or (insert a iferent song from your list here). Just keep the action gong and don't leave any dead spots in the act. And remember rule number one, "When in doubt, leave it out".

[Flowerpot]

Good comments, all.

I always look at pacing and flow, which means not too many fast or slow songs back to back, not too many in the same key together, etc. One way to get inspiration is to look at the order of songs on albums, paying note to tempos, keys, and feeling. The other thing to think about is showcase tunes for an instrumentalist, as these can be a handy way of giving introduction to a band member. As a rule of thumb, I son't like to see more than 2 songs in a row in the same key, and no songs back to back with similar tempos. Alternate medium, fast, slow, and if you have instrumental tunes, don't do any more than one instrumental song per two singing songs. Generally, people get bored with too many instrumental tunes and want to hear something they can understand the words to.

You want to think extra hard about the beginning of the set, because more likely than not there will be sound problems for the first song or two. What that means to me is that you want your first tune to be something extremely comfortable, something that you could perform cleanly in the presence of feedback and fading monitors. You also want to think about the end of the set, to save your real killer stuff for the last tune (and encore) to leave them wanting more. It will be easier to do your harder stuff after you've settled in with the sound system and things are flowing -- if you're like me, you will be playing at least 50% better on tune 10 than on tune 1.

Don't be afraid to throw in a "warhorse" now and then -- but don't get carried away with it. I've seen festivals where the big names have performed fantastic sets, but then some local band steals the show by throwing in "Rocky Top" and "Ballad of Jed Clampett", which (despite the eye rolling from the other bands) could be what 50% of the audience came to hear. Know your audience and throw them a bone; a cover of a pop tune, or an old hymn can go a long way depending on the crowd.

That ended up longer than what I intended! Hope it's useful.

[mrbook]

The only real reason to perform is to please the audience. I write up the set lists when we use one; on casual gigs, like our monthly show at our local coffeehouse, I think in groups of 3-6 songs, calling them out ahead #according to what I think the audience may like that night. It only works after playing together for a few years.

For more formal gigs, I make up a set list, and we try to keep things moving. We play a few standards along with others we like, so everyone can find something to identify with. We usually start out with two lively tunes before we do any talking, often one instrumental, then go to the jokes and introductions. No more than two songs in a row in the same key, vary the tempos... and to me the most important thing is that songs relate to each other. We do a couple train songs together, then maybe move to a hobo song, and of course, one Hank Williams song always deserves another.

In any case, we try to keep things moving, knowing that people came to hear music, not stories about life on the road (folksingers, take note). We throw an instrumental in every few songs, and since several people sing, we try to make sure that no one sings lead on more than a couple songs in a row.

We do change in mid-set if we don't seem to be connecting with the audience - it happens to everyone once in a while. Once you get comfortable playing on stage (it took me a while), you can watch the audience (and the rest of the band) without worrying about what you are doing. Watch their reactions, and seeing which songs work might give you ideas. We also change when someone's favorite song doesn't make that day's list.

We often plan on 14-16 songs per 45-minute set, but think about what songs we would cut if necessary. Sometimes we do hour or hour-and-a-half shows. and I think of groups of 4-6 songs that go together, with sometimes up to forty songs on the entire list - #if we make changes, it is often within a group rather than with individual songs. If you are playing 4-5 sets in a club, the last set might be filled with leftovers (songs that didn't make the other sets), but it may not matter, because the time might be filled with requests, raffles, and whatever else may happen.

Play to entertain people, play with confidence, and communicate the fun you are having on stage to the audience and it usually works. Start with a couple good songs to get their attention, end with one that will make them remember you, and do some more good ones in the middle.

[Givensman]

A. What is/are your goal/s with the song list?
B. How long is a good set?
C. What makes a Good Set? What makes a bad set?
D. What adjustments do you make rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, to make a so-so or bad set into one that works?

A) Please the audience and the band
B) Usually 45 minutes about 13 tunes
C) Knowing the audience. Not Knowing the audience.
D) Nothing while we're doing it

Arranging the list so that there is minimum capo or other changes.

[harwilli55]

I took all of the replies , copied them, pasted to an email for the group to read.

Much of what I had been thinking, maybe not practicing as much as I would like, all of you spelled out so very clearly, logically, and thoughtfully.

I do believe that a mixture within sets is important. Knowing that, understanding what that means has not always been clear to me. I have always believed that instrumentals need to be limited between song(unless you only play instrumental music, of course), but I had never thought of the juxaposition of keys.

We also work to make sure that we are alternating the tempo of each selection, so that there are differences which allow each selection to stand on it's own. I do think that is harder if all the songs played in a set have the same drive and tempo.

We do play a very wide range of material, so, sometimes, we tend to play a set of 1800's era music, then a set of trad celtic, then we have a mixed bag of assorted traditional music we play.

Some of the feedback we have been given when talking to people after a performance, is that what they enjoy the most is how much we enjoy playing with each other. We are not skilled musicians, but a humble group of amateurs, who love playing.

Anyway, I really want to thank all that responded with such clarity and thoughtful responses.

If anyone else has more to add to what has been said, please do.


Harlan

[garyblanchard]

# # # # # #A. What is/are your goal/s with the song list?
# # # # # #B. How long is a good set?
# # # # # #C. What makes a Good Set? What makes a bad set?
# # # # # #D. What adjustments do you make rather than throw the baby out with the bathwater, to make a so-so or bad set into one that works?
Nice question that makes me think about what I do.

A) To offer a variety of songs with a variety of speeds, instrumentation, styles, keys etc.

B) I usually do 45 - 50 minute sets unless I am doing a 90 minute gig when I go straight through.

C) A good set offers variety without being too disjointed. To me, a set is good if I let go of worrying about how I am doing and can focus on enjoying the music and connection with the audience. A bad set comes from being too self-absorbed.

D) There are times when it becomes obvious that certain things are not connecting with the audience. Then I might pull out an unplanned crowd-pleaser. I also remind myself to relax and enjoy myself - the audience enjoys it more.

I am very focused on presenting an image along with the music. I wear a white shirt and black pants with braces. I top it off with a derby in a nod to John Hartford. When Carol joins me she is wearing 1930's influenced outfit. We have recently switched to using a single condensor mic to ease the on-stage clutter.

Thanks again for giving me a chance to look at what I do so I can continue to look at how to do it better.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Harlan, everyone said things so well, I am hesitant to chime in at the tail end, but throwing caution to the wind, I will.
Adjustments - can be as simple as a knock your socks off well played, and well loved, tune the audience can relate to easily. Have a few in your back pocket.
Pleasing the audience - important, yes, but musicians have a higher calling. With "pleasing" as a baseline, we must give them something special for the moment, and to take home. Well choosen songs, delivered skillfully (yes, amateurs can do this!) with an evident personal style make for a successful gig.
------
rasa

[f5loar]

These are all good points for bluegrass set ups which I guess is what most of us are here. I would go back and listen to and study the masters. Live full sets by Monroe,
Flatt & Scruggs, Stanleys, Jim & Jesse, Osbornes, Jimmy Martin,Country Gentlemen, even Johnson Mtn.Boys. These guys knew how to do it right. A good mixture with features on each instrument. When to do gospel, when to throw in the instrumenal, the hits, the slow songs along with the introductions and the jokes.

[jeffshuniak]

I guess this should apply to most forms of music.

(1)I #think about the timing and the key of the song.
# ------ I dont like to play more than two waltzes in a row.
# ------ I try and avoid two songs in minor keys in a row, but two majors I # # #
# # # # # #think is ok. #

(2) since I mix up genres a little, I go back and forth as much as possible. italian, russian, greek, old jazz standards, anything gypsy sounding.

(3) I try to always open with something different because I play to the same people practically, week after week. I always try real special , that I know that song real real good not a single mistake in the first song.

(4) dont tune for too long, take a break if you have to, but if it takes you more than a minute or two, you are probably being over sensative. I notice when I play back my tapes of shows, many tunes sound really good, when if fact, at the time, the intonation was killing me.

(5) tempo, I like to switch it up as much as possible

[garyblanchard]

I should point out that my performances are a mix of old-time, jug band, 1930's pop, folk, vauldville, classic country, and anything else that hits my fancy. Throughout the performance I play (not at the same time) guitar, banjo, mandolin, ukulele, and hope to soon add autoharp and fiddle. So I mix all the styles and all the instruments so there isn't too much of the same thing. I am careful, however, not to change too frequently so that the set feels disjointed.

I also like to present some background information about a song, or instrument, or musical style. The trick is to give enough to inform without boring the audience. ( I do lectures and classes some times so I can easily fall into the "professor" mode if I'm not careful. ) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[harwilli55]

I am glad to see this thread continue. As I learn something new and unique from each persons comments.

This past weekend when we met to practice I bought the postings with me to have a discussion about the great points everyone is making and evaluate what we have done, what we want to do differently, and how to implement those changes.

For three of us, this is the first group we have performed with. Our bodran player is a professor and performs daily ;) and he resembles your remark Gary. For the rest of us, we are becoming more comfortable on stage and less self-conscious of our playing. So the next step has been to really look at what we are presenting, how we present it and ourselves with the goal of creating an enjoyable atmosphere that delights and entertains.

I very much appreciate and will continue to look forward to thoughts, comments, and suggestions as well as self-evaluations. For they are certainly helping us learn and grow through your kindness and generosity. Thanks very much.

Harlan

[Michael H Geimer]

"Hey Wille, what songs are y'all gonna play tonight?"

"Well ... I guess we'll start with Whiskey River ... and go from there."

* * *

There's something to be said for *always* opening with the same song. For us, it's Pheobe Snow's It Must Be Sunday done instrumental, and since we always play it 'cold' ... we have it 'down pat' as an opener. And rather than being 'cliched', it has become an expected standard ... but not as cool as Wille's opener.

I always think the idea of a 'false peak' about two-thirds of the way through a set is really effective. Play something really exciting, bringing the energy level up ... then back off and start over again with a waltz, or some other slower, more sedate song. But, always save your best material for the end, so you can leave the audience wanting more.

Likewise, squirrel away something that's really nice, but that isn't in your normal set. That way, you can 'spontaneously' bring out your hidden gem once the day arrives when you are asked to play 'just one more song'. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif After all, you'll be following your own strongest song, so you won't want to play something that was too rusty to put in the proper set. Hide an Ace up your sleeve ... you'll need it one day.

- Benignus

[grsnovi]

One thing that hasn't been touched on (if it was, I didn't see it) is: define the performance?

Are you playing as the focal point or are you there as part of the ambiance? While one can say that this shouldn't influence how you plan out your set or what would constitute a "good" set, I think it has some impact.

If you are working new material into your set, I'm not sure that I would do it in front of an audience that was paying to see you play for 20 minutes. If, on the other hand, you're the bar band for the night, slipping new stuff into the last set of the night would certainly work.

As has been mentioned, opeing with a tune you like and can play well completely cold was something I would always do. No matter how many times I would perform, the first tune of the night always seemed to involve some "butterflies" and knowing that first one inside out made those butterflies disappear after the first twenty seconds or so...

Also, ask yourself: has this audience already heard this set? last night? last week?

[Tom C]

In a bluegrass setting, for set list of 12 tunes i would say to have 2 instrumentals
, 2 gospal tunes and maybe a waltz. -Mix and match. When we play in a bar where people are not there neccessarily for listening. We do all singing tunes with an instrumentla or 2.

[mrbook]

A guy who isn't in our band anymore aid a set is always "14 songs, with 2 instrumentals." A good model, but we don't always follow it now that he's not with us. Come to think of it, one of the reasons he isn't with us is because we didn't follow it then, either.

We constantly move between all the singers in the band, and because I want to feature our fiddle player we put an instrumental in every 3-4 songs. Don't let the instrumentals get too long unless people are dancing. If people start dancing near the end of a song, we will usually stretch it out a bit to give them a little more time on the floor. We have half a dozen or so regular opening songs - lively songs that we know well, so we can see how we are playing that night and how the crowd reacts - and some good regular closing songs as well. We will entertain requests, but I have yet to figure out why the requests are never one of the hundreds of songs we know.

[Trip]

lots of great suggestions here......but we plan on an hour set, minimum(its easier to toss out a few than try to think of songs to fill time with).......and sometimes 1.5-2 hours for the second set, so ya dont lose the crowd during a break....usually 3 hours total play time

unless you have a very dynamic band member, who can work a crowd....shut up and play, be organized and dont tell worn out jokes....thank yous between songs should be plenty, and maybe send a song title out to someone....stay away from requests unless it from friends who want to hear something that you know

we also rotate the songs so one person doesnt sing too many in a row.....we stay away from most very slow songs....crowds are easily distracted even if your a doing great version of a song.....throw in 5-6 instrumentals throughout the night....but we play a wide variety of style so we have more options than most straight Bluegrass bands

I like to segue an original of ours into a traditional tune a few times a night also for a little twist on things.....sometimes when the crowd notices the change youll get a little holler out of them, and if they are up and moving this will keep em moving....and I get lots of compliments on that aftershows....how we caught them by surprise with this or that combo......and we always a special version of a song tucked backed for an encore, but only if they earn it....cause unless they really want to hear some more, Id rather go grab a beer and wind down

[jim_n_virginia]

Wow! Great to hear what others are doing! Very interesting ideas. Here's my 2 cents..... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

I am from a theatrical background as well as being involved with music. And I have incorporated much of what I have learned about performing on stage from camera to musical live audience.

I think every show MUST have a beginning, a middle and an ending that always leaves then wanting more. First and formost the audience must be entertained. And I don't think that mean to get up in front of everyone and crank out 30 songs, take a break, walk back up and do 30 more songs and then leave.

Somehow I always try to connect with the audience. Get them singing along with you, get them clapping in time, dancing or even laughing.

Of course 99% of the time I play more intimate audiences because I play as part of an acoustic duo (less money to split with!) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[AmosMoses]

I make the set lists for our band and I try and consider the poor banjo and guitar players and not make them re-capo after every song. I try and work 3 or 4 songs in a row that they don't have to change on.

As has been said. Start strong. If you hook the audience with the first couple of numbers they are more likely to overlook a flub later on. If you blow your first number, you're toast.

[Keith Wallen]

harwilli55 - First off I am just glad to find someone else named Harlan.... Its my first name but I have always gone by my middle name of Keith. Harlan was always used when I got into trouble and at college. I just started going back to school and everyone there knows me as Harlan. anyway I wanted to add one point that in our first set we like to use the first song to test the sound even if its our sound system just in case there are any problems. Its usually a bg standard that we know well enough to play even if we can't hear. We also like to mix up the first set to try and get a read on the crowd. So we see what genre or slow verse fast songs go over the best and try to tailor the rest of the sets to what the crowd is going for. The funny or cool thing is that it can be drastically different from place to place. Hope this helps

Take care Harlan,

[garyblanchard]

Harlan is perhaps too modest to point out that he has posted a list of the songs that his group plays on his Traditional Voices forum If you haven't checked it out, you really should. With a song list like that, he should have no trouble putting together great sets. Check them out at
Traditional Voices Forum (http://www.traditionalvoices.com/forum/)

No financial or other interest here, just an appreciation for great music!

[harwilli55]

This has been a incredible display of generosity on the part of everyone that has taken time to respond. I cannot thank all enough. The discussion and responses here have defintely provided a framework for us to evaluate what we do and how to better ourselves. Emails are flying back and forth this week as we discuss and think about all of the information that has been given here. That is how good things happen.

Thanks to all in the community for the willingess to share your experience, your suggestions, and knowledge.

Harlan