Anyone Ever Play an Eastman?

[Evan Skopp]

I'm a first time poster here and a complete novice when it comes to mandolins, though I have a lot of experience with guitars. I've wanted to learn to play the mandolin ever since I was a teenager. But I just never got around to it. Well, no time's like the present, so I'm thinking of springing for one. I want to get a decent quality instrument, but I don't want to spend more than a grand or so.

What do you think of Eastman Strings Mandolins (http://www.eastmanguitars.com/)? I know they're made in China, but I've heard that they use spirit varnish or lacquer, decent tone woods and lots of hand carving, etc. Anybody have any experience with these? I know a few high profile jazz guitar players who say great things about their guitars. But know next to nothing about their mandolins -- except they look real nice on the website.

Also, what about Mid-Missouri (http://www.midmomandolin.com/)and Weber (http://www.soundtoearth.com/)?

Any thoughts or opinions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[WaywardFiddler]

AFIK the mandolins are a new thing for Eastman. FWIW I have a student grade Eastman violin. It's far better than a lot of the junk fiddles out there. I'm getting ready to trade up to a better instrument (VAS???) but for a student instrument it has been just fine, after a good setup. I had the shop lower the nut considerably and ended up with a quite playable instrument after a good setup.

So... if you are smart you will ignore my post completely since I am talking about fiddles and not mandos, but if their violins are any indication, then their mandos could well be a reasonable value and something you could sell again and get most of your money back.

In any case, I've come around to thinking that the best first instrument is a *rental*. Go to a good shop, find out what they have in their rental fleet that is playable, and go plink on it a while. No emotional commitment, and after practicing for 6 months you will have formed some very definite opinions and will play well enough to audition instruments for yourself instead of asking yahoos like me for advice.

-dave

[Lane Pryce]

Holi chitola! Nice looking mandolins. I too am a fiddler and I am familiar with the eastman line. Some of the best fiddles in the world are coming out of China and it will not be long before we say the same for mandolins. Play it first, then play as many as you can get your hands on. If you still like it go buy it. Then post pics and give a full unbiased report on the cafe forum. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Lp

[futrconslr]

[QUOTE] Some of the best fiddles in the world are coming out of China and it will not be long before we say the same for mandolins.

I doubt it.

[Bob Sayers]

Interesting thread. Mandolin Bros. just sent me a 2004 calendar with photographs of famous American jazz guitarists accompanied by mind-boggling pictures of Eastman's line of guitars. If they sound anywhere near as good as they look, heaven help the domestic makers. I was stunned when I read that they were made in China.

Bob

[John Flynn]

I have played early editions of the Eastman A-4 and A-5 knockoffs. The A-5 seemed like fine instrument for the price, but I didn't spend much time with it. I was mainly interested in the A-4. It was very nice. Very playable, great oval sound, beautiful finish. It was hard to leave the store without it.

[BBarton]

I've seen the pics of the mandos on their web site -- look great -- and have heard very good things considering their price. I like the looks of their F4 model. Anyone know of distributors for these in eastern (or elsewhere) Canada?

[neal]

In Canada, 12th fret (http://www.12fret.com/used/) is an authorized Eastman dealer.

[Evan Skopp]

Thanks for the opinions guys. This is what I need.

What do you think about an Eastman vs. a North American brand of the same price range, e.g., Weber or Mid-Missouri?

[jom]

I played an Eastman F5 prototype and it was absolutely amazing, and apparently the next batch of 'em was even better. I ended up paying a little more and buying a Gibson A, but the sound of the Eastman certainly was very tempting. If you were going to buy an Asian instrument, I would absolutely recommend these mandolins.

"Some of the best fiddles in the world are coming out of China and it will not be long before we say the same for mandolins."

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif # "We"........you must have a mouse in your pocket.

[peterleyenaar]

In Western Canada, Eastman mandolins can be bought from
Mike Macleod's The acoustic Guitar Store,
http://www.acousticguitar.net/home.html

[Brain]

I played an A4 model in Gryphon (Palo Alto, CA)
last week. Good tone. Playable. Compared well
to the snakehead hanging next to it. I wasn't
very impressed with the finish details.

I also play a fiddle that came from the Eastman
factory (in the white). After a finish and
set up from a guy in Tennessee, it is one
great fiddle.

[BBarton]

Thanks Neal and Peter -- Probably nothing in the Maritimes, but I'll check out 12th fret and Mike McLeod's web sites.

[atetone]

Peterleyenar, have you played any of the Eastmans?
I know that you have a Sawchyn that you are thrilled with and I have one also. It's an A5, but now I am looking for a decent but not too costly F4 style mando. If you can add any info on fit and finish, tone etc.. it would be appreciated.
I am fishing for anything I can find out about these mandolins. Anyone else have any more info???

[peterleyenaar]

Atetone, never even had one in my hands, I just happen to know that Mike is bring some in.
I have to say though that I am quite surprised with the quality and sound of the "cheaper" mandos, it shows that most anyone can affort to buy a nice mando without having to break the bank.

[Jim M.]

I played the one at Gryphon, also, and thought it sounded very nice for the money. There was a Breedlove OO next to it though that sounded even better, and it's actually priced less. Has a blonde finish, not sunburst, but it had great tone and volume. Make sure you try Breedlove too, if you're thinking of Eastman. 12th fret carries them too.

[Lane Pryce]

"Some of the best fiddles in the world are coming out of China and it will not be long before we say the same for mandolins."

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif # "We"........you must have a mouse in your pocket.
Dale you will see it in your life time. And I imagine you'll turn a buck on a few of them too! I can see it now; Dealer of new and used American and Chinese mandolins. Walk in and ride out with the mandolin/classic car of your dreams. Buy here-pay here. The little cheaper dealer! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
#Lp

[Jeff Baldwin]

I have played an f and an oval A model. Both were
nicely designed, reasonably well built, finished poorly
and had alright tone. #As a fiddle player, I have been impressed by some of the Eastman stringed instruments but I have been disappointed, so far, with the mandolins.
I agree with Jim M...the Breedlove OO at Gryphon is
an instrument that has a lot more to offer ....at less cost.

"There was a Breedlove OO next to it though that sounded even better, and it's actually priced less"

Exactly Jim & there lies the rub. Why would anyone buy a Chinese mando when an American (or domestic built) mando is available at or below that pricepoint. I can't speak for our Canadian members so don't get all worked up..... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

We aren't talking $200 mandos here so don't throw up the entry level or my first mando crap... Someone bring me up to speed as I cannot understand why any American would purchase one.

I might could understand it on the F models....but not on an A.

[BenE]

Why would anyone buy a Chinese mando when an American (or domestic built) mando is available at or below that pricepoint.

Free eggrolls and delivery on orders more than $10.00 http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Steven Stone]

I played (and purchased) the model 805 A model that Eastman showed at NAMM this year. I'll be bringing it to the Rockygrass Academy to pass around. The fit and finish is well above what I've seen from any other pacific rim instrument (except Sumi.) The finish is nice and thin, the sunburst isn't gaudy orange, but a nice subtle tone with a gradual fade. the back wood is especially flamy and nice.

Both the top AND the back are carved, not just bent. triple binding on the top, back, sides, neck, fingerboard, and headstock. The headstock has a similar shape to their guitars with a flair that widens as it goes up - it takes F-style tuners rather than A-style. Gotohs on mine. Tailpiece is a Weber.

The sound is also remarkable - even, good extension at the top and bottom, and no loss of volume up the neck.The overall sound is far more refined than any M&K or other Pacific Rim instrument I've seen.

Set up on mine is also very fine - due to the final set-up from the retailer.I'm especially impressed by the bridge feet's fit.

If you haven't seen the latest 2004 Eastmans you can't make any judgements on their quality - earlier samples were not nearly as good.This is a serious challenge to domestic instruments at the $1000 price point. It is a far better bluegrass instrument IMHO than any Breedlove I've played.

[Lane Pryce]

Dale I agree with you. Most experienced mando musicians are gonna buy American. Especially those that had to start with an entry level import. Right now the US mandolins have the quality,and the sound we as musicians desire. At some point those import guys are gonna get it right. And shoppers will be asking why should I be shelling out $3 grand for brand A when brand X is $2 grand less and sounds as good or better. It happened with our fiddles and rather guickly. I vowed I would never own one of those Chinese pieces of chit but they got it right and I own a couple! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif Lp

[John Flynn]

You go, Dale! While were at it, let's boycott all this stuff from foriegn countries, like Germany, Czechoslovakia, Canada and Texas. #
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Steven, I'm glad to here they look better. At summer NAMM they reeked of cheap looking import from 20 feet away.

Every now & then I nab an import to check it out.......To date, I'll stick with our domestic builders even if it costs more. We are talking Eastman Chinese mandos boys & girls.....let's keep it on center. # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I played an Eastman at Namm also. It was O.k but I thought the Micheal Kelly's actually sounded better IMHO.

As far as serious competion for the $1000 range?? I don't think it could stand up to the Gibson A-9

[dasspunk]

I only buy mandos built by human beings. I prefer for my money to stay here on Earth.

Yes... even you Dale.

It's kinda funny, but I hear constantly from players who aren't taken seriously because they have an A. I can just imagine the remarks if you showed up at a festival with an Eastman mando. Most of us can't tell one fiddle from another without looking at the label so fiddle players can get away with it easier than mando players.........

Yeah I know, it shouldn't happen but you know dang well it does!

[BenE]

I only buy mandos built by human beings. I prefer for my money to stay here on Earth.

Yes... even you Dale.



You know how we know there isn't life on other planets?

We would have already sent them foreign aid! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

The truth is in all the years of mando history that has come in gone the only thing in the Asian Market that has ever made it big was Kentucky with the SUMI Km-1500 and the Dawg mandolin. Those were because they were hand built by Sumi all the rest that has came out from that area have been junk to just ok mandolins. What motivates mandolin making in Asia is nothing more than trying to make a big proffit on copying the look of mando's made over here. There are not motivated by ART or pure love like our luthiers over here.

Now when Sam Bush and Mike Compton start playing Chineese mandolins I might change my mind but I don't think it is going to happen anytime soon in our lifetime!

I am not trying to bash anybody. I am just trying to get people to open their eyes and ears. They are ok for beginners but I doubt any serious musician would opt to depend on one of them for a living.

[WaywardFiddler]

It's kinda funny, but I hear constantly from players who aren't taken seriously because they have an A.

They oughta quit hangin' out with people who can't hear. Seems to me we should worry more about who we play with and less about the shape of the instrument. The best way to improve at *anything* is to hang out with supportive folks who are good at it.

I agree Wayward.......

[John Flynn]

It's kinda funny, but I hear constantly from players who aren't taken seriously because they have an A. I can just imagine the remarks if you showed up at a festival with an Eastman mando.
Dale, I hear you. I think that might be true if people at festivals actually knew all the details. My guess is that less than half the mando players at an event might be well enough informed to know the difference and actually care. I doubt that people who play the other instruments would.

Eastmans look like any other Gibson clones and they are an American company with an American name. What is more, the ones I played didn't even have the Eastman name on the headstock. They could have been from a private builder for all anyone knew.

Sad to say, what I have I have seen more bad reactions to at public events are Rigels. I can only imagine Phoenix's and Breedloves might draw the same bad reactions. People who are intolerant snub anything they percieve as different. It doesn't matter where it came from.

Personally, I will play my Rigel and my Parsons with pride. But if I decide an Eastman A-4 is what I want and folks don't like it, they can kiss my oval hole.

"What is more, the ones I played didn't even have the Eastman name on the headstock."

Probably a wise move.

As for the rest of the post....well put! # #LMAO !! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif


Big Joe, what's your take on this?

[jom]

I understand and practice the philosophy of buying American products. But
Maverick, you are getting close to suggesting that the Eastman company is
"nothing more than trying to make a big proffit on copying the look of mando's
made over here." I would recommend against determining the motivations of a
company based on their nationality. That could be viewed as something you
might not have intended.

There's a lot of crap coming from Asia. But there's a lot of crap everywhere.
That doesn't mean that some Asian luthiers are less proud of their work than
American luthiers. The tidbits I've heard coming from the Eastman company
reflect a genuine interest in building a quality instrument.

[John Flynn]

jom:

I agree. Eastman has been in business for a long time. They have only recently gotten into mandos, but they seem to have a good reputation in thier price range for violin family instruments and guitars. Also, as the Eastman marketing guy pointed out here on the Cafe' a while ago, they are truly an American company. They just have thier production in another country, just like many, many American firms, including Epiphone (Gibson) and others.

Here is one thing I have never understood about these discussions: Why is it that people get thier hackles up about mandos made made by Asian people, but they don't seem to get as upset about imports made by Canadians, Czecks, Australians, Italians, Scots, Irish, Brits or even South Americans? Some of those are undercutting U.S. builders also, but they don't seem to generate the ire the Pac Rim makers do.

Because most the other's mentioned are competing with, not undercutting American products. Most the major American builders have risen to the challenge quite well though. Hence the 9 series, Breedlove quartz & even the Collings plain jane models & some Webers.

But a Chinese mando built to very strongly resemble an American made product with no name on the headstock......what do you call that?

Let's take a quick poll. Say I'm gonna send you an F style mando & it is to be your only player for 12 months & the one you will be out in public with. You have 2 choices, which would you choose & you don't get to play them beforehand.

#1 A used Flatiron Festival F.
#2 A new Eastman top of the line F.

"""Why is it that people get thier hackles up about mandos made made by Asian people, but they don't seem to get as upset about imports made by Canadians, Czecks, Australians, Italians, Scots, Irish, Brits or even South Americans?"""

It is usually because those mando's are far far better than the Chineese ones IMHO.

The majority of chineese mando sweatshops are not really skilled workers when it comes to building a handcrafted mandolin.

Please I mean no dis-respect to anybody over this. Just my views.

Also on another thing. I think the Asian products should be taxed coming over here. They get to sell their products cheap over here and undercut our workers but when us Americans try to sell to them they Tax our products thru the roof to where nobody can afford our products overseas.

Of course that is our Government's fault there for not standing up to them.. Fair trade?? Yeah right.

Sorry I know politics is a no-no but it figures in the equation on this I believe.

[Steven Stone]

[Let's take a quick poll. Say I'm gonna send you an F style mando & it is to be your only player for 12 months & the one you will be out in public with. You have 2 choices, which would you choose & you don't get to play them beforehand.

#1 a used Flatiron Festival F
#2 A new Eastman top of the line F ]

First,if I had to go onstage with a mandolin I'd never seen or played before I'd probably want to get a 50 minute stomach virus http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

If I could play them first I'd choose the one I liked better. Depending on the individual samples I might chose either - I've played Flatirons that did not cut it, just as I've played several Eastman A's (but no F yet) That I would be willing to play onstage.

I bet Michael Cleveland wouldn't care what it said on the headstock. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[John Flynn]

It is usually because those mando's are far far better than the Chineese ones IMHO.

The majority of chineese mando sweatshops are not really skilled workers when it comes to building a handcrafted mandolin.

OK, I agree with you for many of the Pac Rim imports. But back to the premise of this thread, it does not seem to apply to Eastman. They seem to have real luthiers working for them making very cost effective mandos, guitars and violins. Check out thier violin website. BTW, the mandos I played with no name on the headstock were from an early production run. That will not be the norm.

I can tell you, those mandos sounded great. Within a week of each other, I played Eastman's A-4 and Curtis Buckhannon's teens Gibson A-4. The Gibson sounded somewhat better, of course, but the Eastman was not that far behind. It was close enough that it might be a contender after a year of hard playing. I thought it definitely sounded better and was finished better than a Breedlove OO and the list price I saw was within a few bucks.

So I think the "far far better" argument is fading. My guess is actually that the opposite argument has more force. The better the Pac Rim imports get, the more people with object to them, because they will present an even greater threat to our "icon" American brands. I think the real objection will be that they are selling good instruments for the price of mediocre instruments.

Come on Steven, answer the question #1 or #2?

[jlb]

I'd strongly caution folks about an undercurrent that, while it might not be present in this thread, is often present in others like it...the thought that Asian builders are incapable of ever producing a mandolin that would compete in quiality with its American counterpart.

All it takes is one Chinese guy who's super-gifted with wood (and in a country of 3 billion people, there's probably a whole lot more there than there are here) who can afford a plane ticket over here (or Australia) and the patience of an experienced luthier to tutor him as to how these things are made right, and boom, you have a cheaper (perhaps) but equal line of mandolins.

It just has to happen eventually...the question is, do they charge American prices...the US dollar has been pretty weak for some time.

[jlb]

oh yeah... #1

[peterleyenaar]

Dale and JLP, To bad you's guys is only interested in American mandos,
you's guys are missin out, eh, on Apitius, Heiden , Sawchyn , Muth, Wiems , Tubb, and a sh#tload of others that some other Canucks could add to the list Eh ! :-)

[dasspunk]

Based on the mandos I've played, I would choose #2. I've played nothing but average Flatirons... The two Eastmans I've played were surprisingly nice.

[Steven Stone]

[Come on Steven, answer the question #1 or #2?]

The way you have the question phrased is sort of like:

"By the way, do you still beat your wife?"

Like I said before I would not play anything onstage without playing offstage first. As to which I would buy totally blind (like on ebay, believe it or not, I would buy the Eastman if it was a brand new 2004 latest production over a late production Nashville Flatiron. The Eastman would be less expensive, and if it had the cool-man new case, pretty easy to turn over when and if I got bored with it.

I must stress that the overall build quality of the A model 805 I've got is closer to a Collings in fit and finish than a Gibson. Hard to believe? Yup. True? Yup. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mandodon]

All the Eastman fiddles I've played sound like a million bucks.

To be honest, I hope their mandolins end up sounding like a million bucks too. Some force out there has to keep American mando prices in some realm of sanity, and it sure hasn't been the Kentucky's, MM's, and MK's of the world.

This is a touchy situation, because I, like most other Americans I assume, want Americans to keep their jobs, but from someone who has been playing the same mandolin for 10 years and is not in the market for a new one, I feel I can say objectively that American mandolin prices (for a mandolin that has a real finish, full body binding, and the "standard" set of features) have leap-frogged over the threshold of insanity.

I know lots of folks have legitimate reasons for there pricing structure, but lets be honest. Even 1K for your average Joe hobbiest is alot to ask, so many just don't buy anything but exisiting Pac Rim mandos of low to mediocre quality. If Eastman, or another company, can produce a product that competes with the big American names for lets say 1K (I'm sure some would argue that they already have), the decision will make itself based on legitimate budget reasons.

Easy analogy: I like imported beers, but I think Sam Adams is just as good. Right now, Sam Adams is generaly cheaper per 6-pack (about $6) than Bass Ale (about 8$), so I'll usually buy the Sam Adams. If I ever saw Bass Ale for $2 a 6-pack, the choice would make itself.

The mandolin market, I think, is ripe for an underdog who can deliver a comparable product to the "standard" mandolin at a middle-class, still send your kid to college, price. If the demand is there, the supply will eventually be there too.

The Asians have ended up kicking our butt in many, many production markets, why not instruments???

[August Watters]

If we believe what we're hearing from the fiddle players, Eastman and some other Chinese-based manufacturers are making high-quality violins. I would submit that even if you're running a manufacturing business, you can't do this without commitment and sincere love of the craft. If capitalizing on cheap labor is the only motivator, is it even possible to get such a complex problem correct?

I went into a hardware store last weekend and noticed the "Vermont American" tools were made in Taiwan -- and if you want to by an American flag you have a choice of the ones made in Guatemala or China.

Draw your own conclusions. . . . http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

August W

"I must stress that the overall build quality of the A model 805 I've got is closer to a Collings in fit and finish than a Gibson. Hard to believe? Yup. True? Yup"

Steven, I'm having a flashback to several years ago when you had your MK..........

[Lane Pryce]

Scott Cao,Eastman,Angle and Primo are primarily Asian companies that got it right with the fiddles long ago, especially Scott Cao. He has a branch in Campbell Ca. where his higher end and signature instruments are completed.
Mandodon you hit it solidly and I agree that the US market is ripe for a competitor in the 1K range. Wheather its Eastman or Sak-O-Hockie there is an immediate need to be filled. I have not played an Eastman however I would not be surprised if they are well on their way to filling the 1K nich. That F4 sure is purty. Lp

I just deleted a rather long tirade & will leave this topic at this.

A Chinese mando will always be just that....a Chinese mando!

MK has pretty well ran it's course & to coin a phrase "everybody's looking for the next big thing"........well, this ain't it folks.

You guys.. Mark this down. Once Eastman catches on "If they catch on" Their prices WILL go up! Just look at the MK's what happen to them. If Eastman floats your boat
go for it but I would not want to wade in those waters.
As far as value. Just try to resale one of these and see how much money you loose.

Steven the eastman's I have seen can't even come close to a Collings. More of on the MK level if you ask me. Of course this is just my personal opinion.
#

[jom]

Pardon me Dale, but have you ever played an Eastman? On the off chance that you haven't, how could you possibly make judgements about the "potential" of an instrument or company based on their nationality?

It seems that one can extol the virtues of buying American without insulting potential non-American competitors.

Jom you are absolutely correct. In 20 years there may not be a stigma attached to the words "Made in China".......But at this point in time there is. Look at what happened to Kentucky when they moved their production over there. The Kentucky line went to heck in a handbasket....& still hasn't recovered.

Kudos to Eastman for trying to overcome these hurdles. It's not a racial or nationality issue. It's our past experiences with Chinese instruments. So let's please not throw the "nationality" #thing into this.

[jom]

Dale. Thanks for that clarification. Sometimes the language on this thread has made me worry...but I see that I have no need to.

[Steven Stone]

["I must stress that the overall build quality of the A model 805 I've got is closer to a Collings in fit and finish than a Gibson. Hard to believe? Yup. True? Yup"

Steven, I'm having a flashback to several years ago when you had your MK..........
]

Dale, I never wrote that the M&K had the build quality of a Collings, or even a Gibson. I wrote that the one I had sounded as good as some $3k to $5k American-made instruments. It did.

It sounded better than your MK that you sent around the country.Its build quality was not awful, but the finish was way too thick, and the binding work was only fair.Your demo model had drips in the finish and even less ornamentation than the standard Dragonfly. Still it was better sounding and playing than comparable Kentuckys.

The 800 series A model Eastman's build quality is in a different league from the M&K's. The finish is especially good - thin, even, without flaws.And yes, it really is comparable with any Gibson A-5 I've seen.

I have not seen any Eastman F models yet. F's are more difficult to get right, so I can't say whether their F's will be world-beaters or not. If they maintain the same overall level as this 800 series A, they will be remarkable, especially at the $1950 LIST price (Street will msot likely be 15% less than this).

Their distributuion model is different from MK in that they are looking for small specialty shops only - no internet only, no GC super stores, only small shops that can properly demonstrate and set up the instruments.

From talking to their head guy I also gather that they are not going to be making as many instruments compared to Kentucky or MK. Production will be limited by quality control issues.

Eastman has an interesting payment method for thier workers - instead of hourly wages, they are paid per unit made. each worker has a specific job on the line and their parts are checked when they are passed on to the next worker. The head luthier accepts or rejects the entire finished instrument, and if the instrument is rejected nobody gets paid for their work in that instrument. This method makes each worker responsible for the QC of the instrument. Skilled workers are also encouraged to add assistants if they can increase production while maintaining quality.

No one has mentioned in this string that Eastman not only carves the tops, but the backs of their mandos (unlike MK who only bend their solid wood tops). Eastman also tap tunes their tops. They do this for all their guitars and mandos. As far as I know, this is a first for instruments at this price point.

[doanepoole]

I think it will be interesting to see if Eastman is successful in the oval-hole market, a market ignored by several production American builders, to include the inventors of the model itself.

Not sure I've ever seen A-4 and F-4 replicas come out of the Pac Rim...I saw that MK is now producing an F-4 replica to compete.

OK, like I said "everybody's looking for the next big thing".....is this it?....you folks be the judge.

[Professor PT]

Hey, Dale, that computer you bought at WALMART wasn't made in China, was it? One thing to consider is just how much manufacturing is done in China. You can't buy a leather jacket made anywhere but China( you can, but be prepared to pay many, many dollars more). Take a look at the labels on most anything in your house; it's exasperating just how much is made in China. I understand the resentment and the need to buy American, but as many have said before, it's simple economics. If a Chinese mando sounds good and is many thousands cheaper, it's going to appeal to certain buyers. I'd rather have an American made F-style of my choice, but the $500 I paid for my MK a year ago was a good investment for me. I say play what you like and can afford and leave it at that. And, if buying Pac Rim imports goes against your politics then don't buy one.

Professor, I totally agree in that buying American in our everyday purchases has become nearly an impossibility. Yes, it bothers me but I've had to accept a certain amount of it as have we all.

I guess this issue is my "Alamo" so to speak......watching the last bastions of Americana go by the wayside. These are sad days folks.... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[atetone]

I am not about to pounce on an Eastman, but I am going to watch their progress for a while. If time proves that they supply a good product for a good price then I may be interested. I have all North American (including 2 Canadian) mandolins right now and appreciate the skill and work that went into them and understand why they cost what they do. I do not begrudge the builders right to make a decent living. I applaud it.
This is one reason that I might not buy an Eastman at any time in the future.
If what Steven said about their payment system to their workers is correct and that they don't get paid if an instrument doesn't make the grade then I will not support that company.
I want an instrument that the builder built with care because he wanted to, not because he will be punished financially if somewhere along the line someone slipped up. That is not quality control, that is blackmail and an abuse. I want no part of anything like that.
I would need complete clarification on this issue before I would bring one of those mandos into my house.

[Professor PT]

On a positive note, notice how many Americans do still build mandos. It's not as if Gibson or Weber is moving their production off-shore or that small builders are moving to China to get cheap assistants. On a different note, it's funny to juxtapose our idea of American made with reality. When I lived in Seattle, I visited the Filson factory( they have made very rugged outdoor clothing since the goldrush ). I was surprised to see that every single person making clothes was Asian. Not that this bothers me or that I'm racist, but I think some people don't realize that many of the jobs here in America in the clothing industry( "sweatshops," as some call them)are taken by Asians because they are the ones who actually want the jobs or who have the most experience. To ask a totally different question: would it bother people if Gibson or company X hired Asian immigrants at a cheaper rate to build mandos here?

[BenE]

Professor PT...
I used to be a buyer for Filson at a sporting goods store. I remember the Filson rep. telling me how they were a traditional company and would never make any of their clothing in camo....Have you seen a new catalogue in the last couple of years?

[Professor PT]

Yeah, the last catalogue I got did have camo all over it! Filson is sort of like the Gibson of outdoor clothing. Just a shirt is $100!

Atetone.....good post!

[BenE]

Well....both Gibson and Filson really seem to stand behind their products...which is very welcome these days! If we ever had a problem with a Filson customer and a product then Filson would say "Do whatever it takes to make the customer happy"...right there on the spot!

[jom]

Acetone (and Dale),
I tend to agree. That payment system that Steven described is a bit sketchy, and I was unaware of it.

[Professor PT]

That's good to know. My Filson bag is wearing thin in a few spots...it's good to know that they'll repair it. It makes the $160 I spent on it back in '95 seem like a good deal at today's prices. Obviously, if my MK cracks in a few years, I'm out of luck!!

Okay, I own one made in Asia, one made in N. America and one on order from Europe. Four more continents to go but I'm a little concerned about that hand-melted ice mandolin from Anarctica.

[jom]

Tim,
I'd be concerned too. In my experience the tone on those "polar" mandolins is not as warm as the more equatorial instruments.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

""Eastman has an interesting payment method for thier workers - instead of hourly wages, they are paid per unit made. each worker has a specific job on the line and their parts are checked when they are passed on to the next worker. The head luthier accepts or rejects the entire finished instrument, and if the instrument is rejected nobody gets paid for their work in that instrument. This method makes each worker responsible for the QC of the instrument. Skilled workers are also encouraged to add assistants if they can increase production while maintaining quality.""

So If I was working for Eastman and I busted my hump and made 100 percent perfect scrolls and I passed my work on then somewhere down the line some joe blows screws up putting on the binding I don't get paid???

Sounds like a sweatshop to me.

[Scotti Adams]

...a big ol yup to what Mav said..

[Lee]

The Professor asked, "would it bother people if Gibson or company X hired Asian immigrants at a cheaper rate to build mandos here?"
My reaction is "Yes".
Keep in mind that USA's population will double between 1990 to 2050 and 40% of that increase will be due to immigration; if the present trends continue. We won't discuss whether or not that is a good thing on this forum. I believe a company's success should be reflected in the wages of its employees. If X company is doing well then their toilet-scrubbers should command a wage that allows them to enjoy a higher standard of living than Y company's who is not doing well. On a larger scale; if X country is doing well then their toilet-scrubbers should command a wage providing a higher standard of living than country Y's who isn't doing well. This is the same busines ethic I heard when I asked one of our sub-suppliers what were his business goals for his company. He said simply that he'd like to grow his company sufficiently to see his employees purchase houses, raise their kids, and send them off to college.
In any case; I have witnessed a significant improvement in Chinese pianos. Their mandolins are bound to improve too. But I seriously doubt they will be marketing their products into the same niche as the domestic hand-built mandolins.
I took my Dawg (Sumi) Mandola in for repair a few years ago. The luthier went so far as to contact Grisman's publicist to learn more about the instrument before performing the repairs. The story he was told was that all the Dawg mandolins were inspected for approval by Grisman and Monteleone. A high proportion were rejected. This is the reason the cooperative project was so short lived. The ones that passed are highly regarded however. Sumi now has twenty more years of experience. Where are his prices compared to the domestic hand-builts today?

[Evan Skopp]

By way of (re)introduction, I'm the newbie who started this thread. Actually, I'm a newbie on this forum and to the mandolin in general, but not to musical instrument manufacture (I'm vice president of Seymour Duncan pickups and D-TAR) nor to the "Made in USA vs. Made in China" debate -- which is where this thread has morphed.

But if you would indulge me, especially those of you who have actually played an Eastman, what do you think of it as a first mandolin for a player looking to spend a grand or less?

Or would I be better off -- from a newbie player's standpoint, not from a moral standpoint -- to get something else, new or used?

Thanks in advance.

- Evan

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

When I was ready to buy a quality mandolin, I asked my luthier of choice to build it. (I am in awe of you builders here - I can as yet only build houses and furniture.) He declined, although he was certainly skilled enough. His instruments are well known, and he is sought after by other builders to collaborate. He suggested several other regional builders, saying they could do mandolins better. I pursued it and found one that had the right instrument for me.
MY point is that there are many good luthiers locally, regionally, and a bit beyond. I like to support them professionally. Many excellent ones at this cafe. If one looks around, there are many wonderful instruments that come from individuals trying to make a living in the U.S.
I went through this long ago as a potter. Was told by buyer after buyer, "Like your stuff - but I need a trip to Portugal (or insert name of country here)." I kid you not, they would say that. Folded my tent after 10 years so I could eat and get on with my life - what was left of it. Don't do this to the luthiers in this country.
If you are convinced an instrument from another country has merit, if it speaks to you, alright. Go for it. But think hard about it.
Until those Eastman shop QC regulations are confirmed, I won't even go there. Not likely the real story, unless it is as archaic a system as the years I apprenticed, and watched many a day's work go into the scrap barrel. Much of that was never really examined for it's merit. Only for it's exact replication of the Master's work.

[Lee]

Well Evan, a grand or less is a tantalizing price break because at $1100~$1200 you will open up an entire world of one-man domestic builders who'd be happy to build to your exact preferences. You might be buying their #17th instrument. But it will be lovingly and exactingly build with you, and only you, in mind. Is the extra Buck or two savings worth opting for a mass produced instrument?

[Evan Skopp]

Good point, Lee.

But my problem is, I don't have any preferences yet. Remember, I don't play a lick yet. I don't know if I like an A or F style better. All I know is that with guitars, it helps to start on a decent instrument because it's easier to play better and stay interested. And I'm assuming the same holds true for mandolins.

- Evan

[EasyEd]

Hey All,

I've watched a lot of posts with economic overtones be them about unions, foreign labor, what ever... So I'm finally gonna post my thoughts. My apologies to Scott if necessary. I've never made a marginally related to mando post yet and hopefully this will be my first and last.

Consider this...

1) My brother was born in 1960. At that time there were 3 billion people on the face of the earth when he was born.

2) Two years ago in 2002 (IIRC) the earth's population passed 6 billion. Every person on the earth in 1960 was duplicated (not literally of course).

3) Technology for the past 75 years at least has had as one of it's primary goals - elimination of human labor.

Conclusion - think about it less work more people less work more people... if history is a teacher eventually it's gonna get bloody real bloody.

In the short term...

1) IIRC Regan promoted foreign trade (read globalization) originally. However business soon realized Hey I can't sell American made stuff to people with no money!!! Duh! Now how can we (read big corporations) cash in??? Why these people are a source of cheap labor!!!

2) So we (big corporations) have cheap labor build stuff in other countries and we sell it expensive in the US and rake in the cash and we ride this pony till it dies!!! Now why is the same drug is cheaper in Canada than the US an cheaper still in Africa? Think about it. And since many Americans are foolish enough to believe that they are going to get the same standard of living (or better) than their parents or folks in the 60s 70s an 80s had - heck they'll charge their credit cards to the max to get that standard of living. Sound familiar - I been there??

3) I don't recall ever having the American government ask me if I was willing to take major cuts in standard of living and government services to create a more economically equitable world. I was sold out and I resent it - so I moved to Canada - not that the political climate is any better - but at least I have a good job universal medical coverage and live in a Province (read state) with virtually no debt and a pension plan system than is solvent.

4) However I'm American first and foremost always will be but I can't stand being consistently lied to by my own US government (read George Bush and Iraq for example). At least in Canada - while your still being lied to it's far more transparent (read obvious cuz politicians here just aren't as good at lying).

The fundamental issue always was and still is how do you create an economically level world and not suffer losses in standard of living in well developed countries (read US, Canada, Europe and a few others) while lesser developed countries move forward? I believe the government couldn't find a way an so said let the market rule not telling the American people the ramifications of such a decision - in my opinion a major lie.

I'm not opposed to the world being economically level it's probably a good idea. I just resent having to be a part of the American generation(s) that suffer to make it so. My grandparents didn't suffer it yet I have to. Realize that this is just the first leveling. Africa isn't involved. So sooner or later Africa will be involved and we'll (read developed countries) sink lower.

All the Union threads are just Unions tryin to hang onto some of what could maybe have been. I don't blame them for that. Just like I don't blame corporations for doing what they are. I place blame square on governments and their inability to tell the basic truth - as if "you can't handle the truth". Many claim that this provides tremendous economic opportunity for those who recognize the trend and are in a position to capitalize on it. Well duh it does - if you believe that life is mean't to be a competition where you do whatever is legal (not equal to moral) to make a buck and claw your way above your neighbor then opportunity abounds - no doubt. That just isn't me.

So how does all this relate to our common passion (mandolin) irrespective of our political differences? Mandolins made else where in the world often but not always are not up to our standards (read Loyd Loar). That doesn't mean the builders don't care about the product. They usually do and over time will improve their product. I for one would love to hear bluegrass in Peking and maybe someday it'll happen - I just regret having to suffer economically for it to be so. Efforts focused on "buy American" are well intended to "protect" our own as well as get a product from a maker that knows what we want - soundwise.

Times are hard folks and they are gonna get harder. Unfortunately we and our environment (my passion) are gonna suffer for it.

My $0.02 Can. Take Care! -Ed-

Good points Ed

[August Watters]

"If one looks around, there are many wonderful instruments that come from individuals trying to make a living in the U.S.
. . . .If you are convinced an instrument from another country has merit, if it speaks to you, alright. Go for it. But think hard about it. "

We're talking apples and oranges here. There aren't any US luthiers making a living in the Eastman price range, because mandolins are too labor-intensive. Yes, you can get a US-handmade mandolin in the $1000 range, same as Eastman -- but it will be made by a beginning builder or amateur. That's not to say it won't be good, because there are some VERY good amateur builders who sell in the $1k price range because they don't need to make a living building mandolins, or are just trying to get their name out there so they can raise prices to a living wage. But for most of these builders, it's a challenge to make a mandolin as good as a production model -- I'd say that Rigel, Breedlove, Weber and Gibson are ALL making mandolins in the $1k range that outperform most of the work of luthiers in that price range.

I haven't played the Eastmans and can't comment on them -- but I think that to assume that a handmade instrument by a beginning builder will be better than a production model in the same price range is quite a stretch.

Of course we all would like to support those hand builders who have dedicated their lives to making the best instruments possible -- but I can't really blame someone who can't afford their work, and buys a production model (even an imported one) instead.

August W

[futrconslr]

Where does good old greed fit into the "handmade" luthier equation......I mean come on when you get 10 to 20 grand a pop your not exactly making a "living wage." I am not saying that if a person can get that for their instruments they shouldnt. But for god's sake call it what it is.

[Spruce]

"Where does good old greed fit into the "handmade" luthier equation......I mean come on when you get 10 to 20 grand a pop your not exactly making a "living wage.""

Name me a business model (not an occupation) where the top 1-2% of wage earners are grossing 200K max...
Hard to do, isn't it?

Lemeesee...how about someone who builds custom mandolins?

Bingo....

Not to mention the fact that the makers who are in that 20K bracket (all 2-3 of 'em) followed the market's pricing, and not vise-versa...

That's hardly "greed"...

[futrconslr]

I am not sure what you mean by a "business model" I know lots of people that make over 200k/year. Depending on your education, skills and drive, its not that hard to do. Once again, I am not saying that if a person can get that kind of money for their instruments they shouldn't (I believe this is the same as "market pricing") All I am saying is if you goal is to make 200k/year making mandolins you can make 200/year at 1K each.....or make 10 at 20K each.....the good thing about making getting to the point that you can get 20k for your instruments is that you can afford to make 10/year/ thus keeping supply down and demand up......which then drives the price higher.....and then you "only" have to make 10 a year. Once again(I think this is the third time I said this....)If people will pay 20k for your instruments then you should be charging 20k) However lets call it what it is....a BUSINESS decision.

[jom]

I think Spruce's point was that the top 1-2% of mandolin luthiers *only* make 200k a year, which is tiny compared to most other businesses. I'd like to see the person who makes 200 mandolins in a year...I imagine he/she would look pretty haggard http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

How in the cat's hair did this morph into a discussion of top tier builders.......?

Evan, do yourself a favor & find a shop with a decent assortment of mandos to try. Decide what features you find appealing & give us another shot at it. There are so many features available that we need to narrow the field a little. My FWIW......forget the Eastman for now.

[futrconslr]

Dale,

Lest the blame be placed at my feet, I agree with you post. When I bought my first mando, i played alot of good (american, solid) mandos and then bought what I could afford that sounded the closest to what I really wanted. I ended up with a decent MK that I got for 400.00.

When I bought the instrument I have now, I did the same thing and ended up with an american instrument that is not exactly what I want but as close as I could afford this time around (its pretty close)

Anyway, the key is to really LISTEN and to pay attention to the most trival details. Then make the choice.

By the way, Dale, what kinda select classic vehicles do you sell? Cars are another of my obsessions.

[Bluegrass Boy]

Merle Haggard makes 200 mandolins a year? On top of all the touring? Wow, you just can't stop the Hag!

[futrconslr]

JOM, I imagine someone who makes 200 instruments a year would probably have to hire someone else to do some of the work.....then they wouldnt be a small builder anymore would they? :-)

[harwilli55]

I am going to stir up the hornets nest. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif



Big difference between building custom mandolins and making mandolins that are affordable to the larger population most of whom financially struggle to make day to day living wages.

Small independent luthiers, IMHO, understand that the market they are building for is a niche market with a small population consisting of intensely loyal dedicated musicians who have the financial ability to afford their costs. For the independent luthier to become a mass marketer, they would have to give up virtually all control of their end product. Those who can afford to handmake find instruments do not need the support of the mass markey, but they do need to create a market of those able and willing to pay the prices needed to support their craft. And all of those pressures from the mass market are their in every facet of life, for any independent craftsman.
I am going to stir up the hornets nest. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Competition is what brings to life innovation. Yes, this means that crafters in order to be successful have to understand much more than making an instrument. The most sucessful luthiers learn all aspects of business, competition, marketing, targeting the clientele they want to build for, and salesmanship. Those that do not, well, the path to sucess is littered with the debris of failure. Whether we like it or not, that is the very essence of capitlalism.

As to competition from overseas, we have enjoyed a long and prosperous history free from the terrors and darkness that so many other peoples have had to live. We are not used to competition without as much as within. Those people working in sweatshops live in a community and have families, husbands, wives, and children very often with aunts uncles cousins, grandparents that are working to support themselves meagerly compared to the average American family. When our dollars go to support their growth out of poverty, we begin to see true democracy at work.

Also, I wanted to point out that the model of craftsmanship referred to earlier with not being paid if the instrument does not meet the standard of quality. A good luthier who accepts that if he sells that instrument will damage his business. Therefore, they (the luthier) sometimes will have to swallow the costs, though I would not imagine this happens to very often as the the prudent luthier demands the very best out of himself. As to whether or not the workmen should be paid whether they meet the standards or not and have to depend on each others work, well not a bad idea. That will form a group identity real quick with pride being of making quality instruments that allow them to support themselves and their families, all of which is the same pressure an independent luthier faces. Not much difference really, though as Americans, we hate to be held accontable for the actions of others being such an independent breed.

There needs to be a mass market, if the present day independent luthiers are to survive, for that is where the new virtuoso's most come from. Affordable cheaply but well built instruments creates both the demand and the supply. American manufacturers, if they are to compete with cheaper labor from overseas, have to be innovative and competitive in designing solutions that allow them to profit and live another day. Competition is inherently unfair but it is the willingness to accept the risk of competition that is necessary to any and all businesses.

That is my ramble http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif Please don't kill me.


Harlan

[futrconslr]

yeah, what he said! LOL

"As to competition from overseas, we have enjoyed a long and prosperous history free from the terrors and darkness that so #many other peoples have had to live. We are not used to competition without as much as within. Those people working in sweatshops live in a community and have families, husbands, wives, and children very often with aunts uncles cousins, grandparents that are working to support themselves meagerly compared to the average American family. #When our dollars go to support their growth out of poverty, we begin to see true democracy at work."

Harlan, we fought for & won the right for our freedom & democracy. There is NO more generous nation on earth than the United States. But, the families of our domestic builders gotta eat to. How many independent builders can afford medical insurance? Are not Gibson, Collings, Breedlove & etc paying into the social security system we HOPE will be solvent in the near future.

Buy what you like & whatever you can afford. But when fate deals you an ugly hand & you need some help be it food, medical or financial......Drop a line to China or the other Pacific rim countries & see if they throw you a bone.........

Nuff said, to each his own I guess.

[Lee]

Hey Evan, the Griffin A mandolin in the Classifieds for $1000 looks interesting. If you want to sell it later on, it should hold its value. I have no idea who Brian is; give him a holler. And by all means, visit a few stores and play a bunch of mandolins.

[Lee]

Dale, this is pretty sad.
"During the Cold War, many people felt that the most important reason for foreign aid was to strengthen countries believed to be vulnerable to the spread of communism. Consequently, as the threat of communism has receded, the amount of foreign aid we provide has dropped to the point where we now spend less that one-fifth of one percent of our economic wealth, or GDP, each year on foreign aid. Today, Japan is the largest provider of foreign aid and the U.S. is second. However, as a proportion of our economy, the U.S. spends less on foreign assistance than any other major doner nation. In terms of what it can buy, the foreign assistance the U.S. now provides is less than at any time in the past 50 years."

[thistle3585]

I don't see where domestic builders are complaining about this market segment. They readily agree that they can't be competitive in the $1000 market, and I don't think they really want to compete either because it brings quality issues into effect. I also hear that most domestic makers are backlogged and selling everything they make, so they aren't really being hit by the foreign market.
I think the group that is getting hit, hence the frustration, are the dealers. (This is not a dig at dealers. Just my personal opinion.) I believe that dealers are seeing the effects because their market shares are so small, and in a local market there is more competition based on price.
So, the end result is that in order to compete, the dealers need to take on the lower end mandos. In fact, carrying a low end line will also increase your upper end domestic mandos. (The tier marketing concept makes this possible, but this isn't the place for a marketing seminar.) Basically, dealers need to decide whether they can, and want to, compete with the imports. Based on todays economy I would carry the low end line if I were a dealer, which you see happening by some of the big name mando dealers like Elderly, FQMS etc. I wont begrudge dealers their decision to stick with domestic mandos based on whatever reason they choose, but I will be less sympathetic when they complain about getting run out of business by an overseas market.

One last thing, email privately me if you want to flame me on this, but the US economy will be in much better shape in 15-20 years as a result of emerging foreign markets.

thistle......I gotta admit that makes sense.

[atetone]

I think that the mando market has changed lately for the better in that the dealers can offer a selection in the lower to mid range that does not force them to compromise their values.
The domestic builders have addressed the market #with such things as the A9, Rigel Naturals, Breedlove Quartz etc.. and the dealers can still sell Mid-mos etc.. with confidence that they have not done the customer a disservice.
The ones that bother me are the dealers that have not done their due dilligence and are selling brand name recognizable junk and passing these things off as true instruments. If they did their homework they could sell real instruments for the same prices as some of these pretenders.
A case in point in my experience was when, in my mando-adolesence, I had a dealer convince me that a Fender F-style was the pinnacle of mandolins.
At that time these things were not cheap dollar-wise but were total junk.
I learned this the hard way.
For the same money he could have put me into something less fancy but a real instrument. That's what I asked him to do but he led to into the Fender.
I do not want to offend anyone who happens to own one of these mandos but my 2, (I sent the first one back just based on the finish), were crap. Couldn't tune them and the intonation was horrible. No volume whatsoever, which might have been a good thing.
I have since been trying to educate that particular dealer and now finally he seems to be listening and has started stocking a couple of Breedloves.
He is still selling mostly Asian well known brand names though because it is an easier sell. I am working on him. Trying to get him to look at Mid-mos or something.
My point is that if they do their homework the dealers don't have to sell junk, because the market has better things to offer.

I want to stop & thank everyone that's posted on this thread. It's been one of the most enlightening discussions of this sort that I can remember. Valid views from both sides of the fence & I have really enjoyed reading them.

Evan, believe me in that this has been pretty good reading even if we wandered a bit. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jom]

Dale, I agree. This thread is the first that has stimulated discussion at the dinner table with my fiance. It is not a simple issue, and I appreciate the articulate arguments from both sides. Of course I still don't know who won http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif ...and I think thats the point.

[atetone]

I actually deleted a few prospective posts on this thread because I confused myself so badly that I couldn't remember what it was that I started out to say.
That seems to be happening more and more these days though so situation normal.

[Lee]

Yea, that was cool. Start another one, Evan!
Actually Evan, maybe $1000 is a bit too much for your first mandolin since you haven't formulated a personal set of preferences yet. Maybe a $300 Epihone MM-30 is a better solution. That was my starter. For the time being it'll be OK. You can recoup about 2/3'rds of the money when you sell it to help finance your upgrade into the low 'teens category later on. Or keep it for camping trips.

[PCypert]

Evan,
Financial interest here. Buy my mando http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif Rigel A+. It'll keep all these guys quiet.
Paul

[Lee]

Shameless plugs require a price, and a few pics

[PCypert]

Check the classifieds. Shameless plug over now. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Paul

[Lee]

Nice Rigel Paul! I like that tobacco/wine color finish. And with a Tone Guard and pick-up all for ... a very nice price. Yo Evan, here's your new mandolin. Forget that Epiphone MM-30 idea. The Rigel has a really nice playing neck and the radius fingerboard makes it very comfortable. The fingerguard is a nice touch too. And he's even stuck dampers behind the bridge too. You won't need to upgrade from this for a considerable amount of time; if ever. Do it, man!

[PCypert]

Thanks Lee http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

How's that Czech mando doing?
Paul

[Lee]

In case you don't know, Evan, a Tone Guard is a light metal grill around the lower back of the mando to keep your stomach from dampening the vibrations of the rear of the instrumnet. It makes the mandolin project a louder fuller tone. It's removable and completely non-invasive to the instrument.
Oh, and I have no financial interest in this. Unless I convince myself I want to buy it...

[Lee]

The Sucek is really nice. It's really deep and rich and sounds great with 4-note chords, they blossom and hang forever. This is my first ever oval hole and my personal taste seems to lie with the more punchy sound of the F-hole.
What mandolin did you get now that you're selling the Rigel?

[Evan Skopp]

Evan, believe me in that this has been pretty good reading even if we wandered a bit. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif
Yes, it's been great reading and I want to thank everyone who responded to my first post on this forum.

BTW, as an American musical instruments manufacturer, I'm very familiar with the arguments on both side of this issue. The fact is, all Seymour Duncan and Basslines pickups are Made in the USA and we are part of a proud tradition of American guitar manufacturers that goes back to Rickenbacker, Gibson, National, Fender, etc.

But we also have a line of Korean-made OEM pickups called "Duncan Designed." Both lines have their place in the market and both respond to customers' needs -- and IMO, that's what it's all about.

Anyway, this has been very informative and I've learned a lot. I haven't made up my mind yet, but I will in the next week or so. Thanks again to all who've contributed.

[Evan Skopp]

In case you don't know, Evan, a Tone Guard is a light metal grill around the lower back of the mando to keep your stomach from dampening the vibrations of the rear of the instrumnet.
I did not know that. Thanks for 'splaining me. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[thistle3585]

Evan,
So whats your suggestion on solid body mando pickups? Maybe you should wander over to the electric mandolin thread and let people pick your brain.

[Jonathan Reinhardt]

Just to clarify, August et al, I said nothing about expecting a luthier built mandolin to cost 1K.
Good hunting Evan, you'll find something good for sure. Used or new.

[prairiewind]

To all,

Just my luck. I get home, have to wait for the teenage son to get off the computer, and I miss a great discussion. Just wanted point out a couple of things. Said son began playing the violin 12 or 13 years ago, and at that time no music instructor would tell you to rent, let alone buy a Chinese violin. Now Chinese student instruments (some anyway) are as good or better than German ones. I've been told that has to do with the introduction of free market economics in China. The Party functionaries no longer determine production rates or costs. The product has to be able to sell on the world market and turn a profit. That's a good thing for China IMHO.

You might want to look at an article Jim Fisch wrote for 20th Century Guitar about Eastman Strings. Seems the Beijing operation employs 650 people. The plant has only bandsaws, a buffer, and a machine to roughcut cello scrolls in terms of power tools. All else is handwork. So, I guess an Eastman mando qualifies as handmade. Employees average about $200 U.S. per month. About twice the going rate in Beijing where apartment rent is about $20 U.S. per month. Working weeks are 8 hours per day, 5 days per week. Hardly sweatshop conditions. Just a few things to keep in mind.

Whether Eastman can produce a mando that's up to snuff will be determined by you all and me. IMO, they'll have an impact at the entry level, but not the intermediate or higher. At least not for now.

[mcmando]

Chimin' in re: Paul's Rigel-- someone needs to SNAP THAT ONE UP! #IMHO, you can't go wrong with a Rigel, and especially one as reasonably priced as that one. BTW, don't pass up the Tone Gard-- it really does help the tone and keeps the back scatches completely at bay.

M

[Lee]

You're righteously correct McMando. I was graciously waiting for Evan to make a move before me. But in the meatime, I've been laid off from my main day job. Yikes! Now I'll get first hand experience with this whole job market / economy debate we've been having. I've got a mix of technical/engineering/manufacturing and sales experience, a bit of networking experience with A+/Network+/MCSA credentials to help, and a side business of piano tuning/technician experience. Wonder where I'll land?http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[mando-in-kingwood]

Guys, I am an American and will fight for American values. But the Asia bashing, mostly China, needs to stop. The "buy American" at all costs, and the Asia bashing de-humanizes the people in Asia.

How many of those on this thread, talking of sweat shops, and unfair labor practices, have been to China ?

I have lived in China and set up 2 joint ventures there. They are some of the hardest working, most ambitious people on the planet. They have great aspirations and are willing to work hard for them.

Yes, they are competing against our countrymen. But isn't that the essence of freedom and capitalism and what we in America stand for........opportunity and competing on merit ? Not nationality.

[harwilli55]

Right On Mando-in-Kingwood !!!!

Harlan

Go back & read page 3............

[JeffS]

Wow. Lots of emotion here. I looked at the Eastman site at their mandolins and they do look nice and I'll take one if any dealer wants to send me a freebie. But I think Dale hit the nail on the head when he said a Chinese mando will always be a Chinese mando. For me that said a lot because I have a Chinese mandolin.

This may upset some people but I just couldn't spend that much on a Chinese import. I could spend less though. Kinda goes against what others are saying about putting Americans out of work but I am guilty of being a consumer and that is why some Americans are losing work. I'm not unfamiliar with people losing work, I'm a software engineer who's biggest concern is losing my job to someone in India. So while right now I could afford a Gibson, I'd be better off financially buying a cheaper, probably Korean made, mando for reasons mentioned above. But because of reasons mentioned above I'll probably just keep playing what I have for now.

Since this thread is political, let me say this. I hate to see Americans lose jobs but not everyone can afford American made. At least not when it comes to quality instruments. I think alot of us who buy the Asian stuff do so for a reason. For example the Gibson mandolin line is not made for players at my level. I don't think that is a huge shock to them and it is probably why they're importing the same Pac Rim stuff and putting the Epiphone label on it. Heck, look at what Fender does. They have their American Standards, the Mexican strats, the Squire label which is Asian imports. So for those of you who get mad when people don't support the American makers, what do you say about the American makers who support the foreign makers?

[August Watters]

To me, the most disturbing aspects of the "imports will always be imports" argument are:

1) this argument seems to be reserved for instruments originating farthest away from US culture -- except for Dale, I almost never hear this argument applied to imports from Canada, England or Australia;
2) it ignores distinctions between production-line instruments and those handmade by high-level individual craftsmen all over the world;
3) it ignores the international connections between lutherie traditions, including those US builders are descended from;
4) the more we repeat our first impressions, the more self-fulfilling they become. Czech mandolins for example are still living down the reputation of those horrible factory-made POS instruments made during Communism -- but the flourishing of free enterprise has allowed the luthiers to connect to pre-Communist traditions. That's good for the US, as well as the Czechs, and I'm not just talking about mandolins.

But I have to give Dale credit here -- he's consistent as an advocate for US-built mandos. If all the critics showed this level of consistency in criticizing imports regardless of quality and origin, I'd be a lot more comfortable with some of the language here.

August W