Choro rhythm project?

[Joel Glassman]

I've played choro for about 20 years--
originally in a couple of bands in Boston,
now mostly as practice exercises.
Most Americans (including myself) play
rhythm to Choro which isn't correct. Brasilians
I've known call this "Charleston" ie. swing music.
I gave-up trying to play rhythm and let the cavaquinho
player do it, but now have no band & want to learn it.
Would folks here like to work on a small project with me?
It would be to place some audio files on Mandolin Cafe
(if thats OK :^) which are clear examples of the rhythm style.
I have a couple to contribute. Maybe we could also solicit
audio from people who are players, discuss etc. Any interest?
thanks Joel

[WJF]

As a choro neophyte I can't promise I'd have anything to contribute but I would sure LOVE to learn the "correct" way to play rhythm to Choro!!!

[Brad Weiss]

VERY interested!! I'd really like to learn more about this. #I've recorded many a choro here (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=434303), backing myself up, and ANY suggestions for rhythm would be great.

You could probably post stuff in the Songs Project Yahoo site...

[Richard H]

I bought the two well-known choro volumes on the advice of Marilynn Mair (also her choro CD) and have been having a go at them for a few years. As a Caribbean person, I suppose we give them more a calypso/bossa feel.

I imagine Marilynn's accompaniment is the real thing as she works with the Brazilians but I don't know for sure. Maybe there are different choro rhythms as well. She does Iara, for instance, in a duet with a clarinet and no rhythm. I like it with a beat.

BTW, I listened to a number of your tracks, BradW, and the mando lead sounds authentic. There are some chords in the 3rd part of Iara (Marilynn had this in Mandolin Magazine some years ago) which to my mind are sweeter in her version.

I wouldn't mind hearing the right accompaniment but couldn't contribute much. I do all my strumming on cuatro, guitar or banjo.

[groveland]

Maybe this is a good time to ask: At the end of Mike Marshall's Choro book there are 10 accompanying rhythms. You guys have the ear, and I assume you have the book - How authentic would you say these rhythms are as written? Is there anything that the written music doesn't communicate?

I have very little to offer the project, but you can be sure I will be listening.

[Brad Weiss]

Richard H- thanks very much for the support!

groveland- I think Mike's book might be a place to pursue this discussion; honestly, I'm not sure what to make of his rhythm patterns. I'd like to hear them, rather than read them (which I can't do very well... or see how they apply to accompaniment) I usually just try to get a groove going that has a lot of movement in it- propulsive, I guess. But I'd like to hear what the alternative possibilities for mando accompaniment in choro can be.

[Will Patton]

Hey Joel,
We've been working pretty hard on nailing the feel for choro tunes with my new project, Estrela do Norte, for the last 2 months. I'd love to learn from a discussion. My understanding is that the chordal rhythm is driven by the cavaquinho (and it's this feel that I try to emulate on mando/bando) and the 7 string guitar supplies the bass lines (more melodically driven than a real bass part, like a dialogue...) - and the whole thing is powered by the pandeiro.
Of course there's lots of ways to approach this. We're planning a trip to Rio in March to study, and drink beer.
best, will

[glauber]

Choro, rhythmically speaking, is a branch of Samba. Listen to as much samba as you can, especially the older stuff. There are a couple of different traditions, but basically you have hand-held percussion (tambourine) and cavaquinho banging down the rhythm, and 7-string guitar doing bass lines. It's very simple, though i'm not very good at explaining this stuff. Listen to recordings of Brazilians playing.

Choro is more or less a jazz-inflected samba, but it's 1940s jazz, not bebop. If you picture a continuum from samba to jazz, what modern USian players do sits closer to jazz, and Brazilians would expect it to be a closer to the samba side.

Enough BS for today? Sorry, i grew up with this stuff, but i'm lousy at explaining it. Listen to recordings of Brazilians playing. Try to listen to some of the old Choro groups (called "regionais"), like for example, Epoca de Ouro, or Noites Cariocas. That's the Classic Choro sound. If you can find any Pixinguinha, listen to that too. Pixinguinha is the first generation choro, which was more like a New Orleans jazz sound. Jacob do Bandolim and the 2 bands i mention above are the second generation, which is more string based, like the regional combo i describe above. Then you have folks doing orchestral arrangements, piano, etc. As in jazz, in the end, anything goes, as long as it sounds good and you have a good time.

The basic choro melody is 4/4, with 4 notes to the beat, with syncopated accents.

[glauber]

Will does a good job explaining it. One more thing, in classic choro, the mandolin is a melodic instrument, never rhythm. I think the concept of mandolin as a rhythm instrument is still waiting to happen in Brazil, and when it does, it will be powerful.

[Brad Weiss]

Thanks, Will and Glauber, for the insights. Boy, I'm a HUGE fan of Will's music so I hesitate to add anything here. but why not. Glauber, I believe that technically most choro is in 2/4, and not 4/4. This might not sound like much, but when you count the "1 e and uh 2 e and uh" you sort of get the syncopated feel- it's almost a backbeat.

I heard that Hamilto de Holanda says the mandolin/bandolim NEVER plays rhythm in choro- so how DO you imitate the cavaquinho? I would dearly love to know some 7 string guitar and cavaquinho players- I've worked a little with a flautist, and that has been fun, but it's made me want to think of more compex/distinictive rhythmic forms to back her up with. I'm also trying to figure out some counter-melodies for stuff like Doce de Coco, or Vou Vivendo.

So glad this topic is an active one! Thanks!

[Linda Binder]

I just bought a copy of "Tocando com Jacob" with 24 pieces by Jacob do Bandolim thanks to a recommendation by Michael Reichenbach. They are all transcriptions. It includes 2 CDs with all the songs in the original version AND the original playbacks (from 1961/1962) without the mandolin, so you can hear the band without the mandolin solo. It's really helpful for hearing what's going on with the rhythm accompaniment. Evidently Jacob do Bandolim insisted on his band recording like this without him so he could practice at home and work out different ideas for the melodic line. Maybe the earliest use of "Music minus One"?
--Linda

[delsbrother]

Hi,

Sounds like a neat project! If possible, could you give audio examples of "Charleston" as well? Sometimes it helps to know what is considered "wrong" as well.

[markmdavis]

I just bought a copy of "Tocando com Jacob" with 24 pieces by Jacob do Bandolim thanks to a recommendation by Michael Reichenbach. They are all transcriptions. --Linda


Linda this sounds like a fantastic resource! #Where did you find it?

MMD

[Paolo Mando]

As my first post in this wonderful forum, I give my little contribution.

After several years of playing Bluegrass, Old time, Dawg, … It is about one year that I am studying choro … really I have been bewitched by this music.
Apart of the choro melody lines, who remember me a lot of European folk style music, polka in particular, rhythm is become my obsession: How you cannot play rhythm during other solo play? But, more important, how does it work? I discover soon that playing rhythm in this music is really something different from North America Folk music style I played.

These are up to now my understanding.

Mandolin or Bandolim, as already stated, do not use to playing rhythm in original Choro Music. This was also confirmed by Hamilton de Holanda during last Symposium I attended. “String Rhythm” is mainly covered by Cavaquinho. Nevertheless, non Brazilian mandolin player who play #Choro use to rhythm (e.g. Mike Marshall, Eva Scow, Ted Falcon, ….). Also Hamilton sad that new Brazilian generation mandolin player are changing rules and way to play Choro introducing rhythm (and he is really a champion!) and improvisation as well.

Rhythm is not just matter of tempo, but also using the right up or down stroke on the tempo. Using the right one, you can obtain better sound that well fit with the overall rhythm (pandeiro mainly).

In order to better fit in the overall sound, also chord position and movement between two following chords play a big role when you playing rhythm. I discover/understood that using chord close to the Cavaquinho ones create a better result.

There are several rhythms in choro music. Samba, Samba pagode, maxixe, forro, valzer …. And for each of these require the understanding of the previous points.

Saying that, I am still working a lot and I am still far to have good results … you have to play and exercise a lot… both working on your left hand (positions chord and stops mainly) and with your right hand (Stroke and accent mainly) as well. But play rhythm as Cavaquinho player do is my reference or starting point.

There are several stuff that strongly helps: Real life strongly help!!!: play with and see a Cavaquinho player is the first! Play with a good guitar samba player it is also good if you have the occasion or with other Mandolin player (Symposium Jams were fundamental for me).
If you are alone there are some training DVD on Cavaquinho available from the web that help on start, other than already mentioned rhythm explanation from the books (like MM one). I have the book from Jacob recording, also this is a good help to exercise what you learned … and maybe finally tons of patience and passion! Especially for people who is not Brazilian native…. Or at least for me!

Hoping could help…. And Joel, I am a strongly sponsor of the project!

Paolo

[Linda Binder]

Joel, your idea of people posting files of the rhythms is great -- I hope this happens. #The topic is obviously interesting to a lot of people!

Mark, I purchased "Tocando com Jacob" #from sambastore.com
It really is great hearing Jacob's original band playing the rhythm accompaniment without the solo line. #It's much easier to hear what they're doing especially the cavaquinho. #In the notes Jacob mentions that on Assanhado each member of his band had a different rhythm that they stayed with throughout the tune, and, as Jacob also states in the notes "it works". #

Paolo, I agree that listening and learning what the cavaquinho players do with rhythm and chord choices is a good approach. Do you know of some good cavaquinho training DVDs?

--Linda

[Paolo Mando]

Linda,
I have the following DVD that a friend of mine bought in Brazil:

SAMBA & PAGODE - CAVAQUINHO INTERMEDIÁRIO E AVANÇADO - Biro do Cavaco - DVD

Unfortunately #the DVD is only in Portuguese language that it is difficult also for me (I am Italian) but this is a good video explanation with picture example that really explain very well basic rhythm for samba. For sure a good starting point where is well explained the basic rhythm and stroke! Of course positions and instrument is Cavaquinho.

I have also the "Basic" DVD ones, but it is more about tuning, tune, and basic stuffs on Cavaquinho that can help if you want to start with this instrument. I do not suggest unless you want to start to play it.

You can find at the following URL: #
Freenote (http://www.freenote.com.br/produto.asp?shw_ukey=38638150745CD6BBTB)

In this site, in the main page , also if you look for (“busca” in Portuguese) “cavaquinho” or “choro” you will have a lot of material available around choro, cavaquinho, Violao 7 Cordas, partiture, ...“Tocando com Jacob” too ... and they have very good prices (at least for Euro)

I bought several material (books mainly) sending an e-mail to the contact because e-commerce doesn’t work for foreign people. I had no problem at all about and I found them really kind and supportive!

Paolo

[Linda Binder]

Thanks Paolo.
--Linda

[jazzfiddle]

I'm interested. Not sure how much use I'll be, but I'm definitely interested in learning. Hopefully, it won't serve as an excuse to buy a cavaquinho or 7-string guitar or pandeiro or anything like that http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jeff

[ironlionzion]

Hey JOel,

I have been playing a couple of years now but i love choro and cant stop playing it. I went to Amguss and Marilyn mair tried to teach the choro rhthym but i found them very difficult. At any rate if you are still in boston we should meet up and play.
Steve

[Paolo Mando]

I found a Cavaquinho site with some samples of rhythm (“batidas”).

Caquinho Batidas (http://www.mvhp.com.br/batcav.htm)

There are some mp3s to download according to the different styles that help to listen the accompaniment played with the Cavaquinho.

According to the tempo, I find difficult to understand how to interpret and play #“desce” (down stroke) and “sobe” (up stroke) sequences, written for the different styles.

Maybe if somebody will discover… could help me.
Thanks
Paolo