Probably been discussed before

[Bluegrasstjej]

I just wonder, is there a difference between octave mandolin and bouzouki (on Tim O'Brien's homepage they call it both but on his tutor video they call it bouzouki) more than the length of the neck?
If I see a post about something about playing OM, can I use it for playing bouzouki?

[Martin Jonas]

You can use anything people say about playing OM and use it on bouzouki (hand size/reach permitting), but not necessarily the other way around. Strictly speaking, an octave mandolin is just that: a mandolin one octave down. That means GDAE tuning and unison strings. Bouzoukis, on the other hand, are often (but by no means always) strung with octave strings, and are often (but by no means always) tuned GDAD or ADAD, or other wild and wonderful modal tunings. Matters get a bit more muddled because some people also use octave strings and/or modal tunings on shorter-scale instruments and still call them octave mandolin...

Martin

[otterly2k]

Practically speaking, I think the main difference between OM and 'zouk is scale length. OMs are typically in the 20-23" range, and zouks are typically longer than that. Scale length generally has an effect on tone, so zouks have a slightly different characteristic tone. Also, the longer the scale, the more likely the need for different tunings and/or more open chord configurations... the technique is shaped by the scale length to some degree... all of which varies in relation to the player's hand size/reach, skills and tastes.

Interesting what you said, Martin, b/c it seems to me that it would be easier to apply bouzouki methods to the shorter scale OM than vice versa.

If anything can be said about playing these instruments it is that there aren't a lot of hard and fast rules. A lot is open to interpretation and experimentation. So go for it...
KE

[Bluegrasstjej]

What about a mandola? Does this term exist in English language or is it equal to the OM? I suppose the OM is what is bigger than the mandolin but a bit shorter neck than the bouzouki?

[Martin Jonas]

Interesting what you said, Martin, b/c it seems to me that it would be easier to apply bouzouki methods to the shorter scale OM than vice versa.
What I meant was simply that you can (usually) assume that an OM is tuned GGddaae'e', and as long as you keep your bouzouki tuned like that, you can use any methods people are discussing for OM on your zouk. You can't assume anything about how people tune their zouk, so you can't just apply zouk-specific tips to your OM.

"Mandola" is even more confusing, because it means different things in different parts of the world. Traditionally, in Europe (including the UK), "mandola" without any further specification meant "octave mandola" or "tenor mandola", which is exactly the same as an "octave mandolin" (US usage). In the US, a "mandola" is always CGDA, which in Europe would traditionally be called either a "mandoliola" or an "alto mandola". In classical circles in the UK, this is still the usage, but folk/bluegrass circles have widely adopted US terminology. If in doubt, ask or look at the scale length.

Martin

[Jim Yates]

Until I discovered Celtic music, mandola meant the mando equivalent to viola. In the days of mandolin orchestras (I know that these still exist in some cities) the mandolin played the violin parts, the mandola played the viola parts, the mando-cello played the violin-cello parts and the mando-bass played the bass viol parts. Like the viola, the mandola was tuned CGDA. All mando instruments had double courses of strings except the mando-bass.

[otterly2k]

Makes sense, Martin... you were talking about tuning, and I was talking about scale length, technique, etc. I get it now.

re: mandola..
getting back to tuning... what we (US) call mandola is tuned CGDA... like a viola. It is in between mandolin and OM in scale length.

[Bluegrasstjej]

Ok, thanks. I think I maybe #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif get it now. I'll ask my husband how a mandola is tuned in Sweden.

[jmcgann]

Wouldn't it be nice if logic ruled the nomenclature? (http://www.johnmcgann.com/om.html)

[otterly2k]

Indeed, John! I generally have to explain my OM to people by saying .... "you know how there's a violin, viola and cello---well, there's mandolin, mandola and mandocello...and this here is the thing that is right in between the 'dola and cello... an octave below mandolin"

It would be SO much easier if there was a common octave violin to point to!

[steve V. johnson]

Karen said, "I generally have to explain my OM..."

Most of the folks who ask about my zouk are bluegrassers (hey, I live in Indiana... comes with the territory), and if I say "It's really just a great big mandolin," they can usually take that and run with it. I've never seen such blank looks as those that come from the word "viola". LOL!!

My wife likes to tell them that it's a "bouzouki" and then watch while they try to say it. She got three old guys almost to blows over how to say it. Troublemaker. (It -was- funny, tho.)

Maybe I can talk someone into building an octave violin... Hmm....

stv

[Bluegrasstjej]

Here in Sweden it seems like most people know what a bouzouki is, and they know it's kinda Irish. One guy at the accordion festival we were at even thought we were Irish and started speaking English with us.
Some know it's Greek and then I just say that the flatbacked type is the Irish kind of bouzouki and then they understand. I think though that they would be much more confused if I had an octave mandolin because that's a much less known instrument here.

[Paul Kotapish]

Here's a little piece I did for Acoustic Guitar magazine a few years back with some info about the evolution and history of the various CBOM instruments.

It includes a sidebar discussion of the nomenclature, too.

http://www.acousticguitar.com/issues/ag89/bouzouki.html

[Eugene]

Wouldn't it be nice if logic ruled the nomenclature? (http://www.johnmcgann.com/om.html)
I wish. #Reading your page, John, I agree that "octave mandola" seems a bit of a nonsense term. #However, I also prefer to default to precedent when we're talking about old instrumental traditions. #I've never been comfortable with Sobell usurping the terms "bouzouki" and "cittern" for his big mandolins because they were perfectly good names for different instruments that already existed. #I'm getting a little more comfortable with such terminology.

Of course, "mandolin" is derived from "mandolino" which is the diminutive of "mandola." #As applied to Neapolitan-type instruments, "mandola" originally was used to describe an instrument tuned an octave below mandolin (i.e., G-d-a-e') comfortably before the alto-tuned analogue existed, and "mandola" is still used that way by those of us who are into pre-Sobell or even pre-Gibson traditions. #Naming a big instrument in diminutive seems as silly to me as "octave mandola" in spite of the current pervasive popularity of the term "octave mandolin."

In the late 19th c., the mandolin quartet was devised as two mandolins, mandola (i.e., the octave thingy), and guitar. #Before the Gibson Co. began building alto instruments that it named "mandola", Embergher in Rome envisioned emulating the string quartet with plucked instruments and built them. #He called his instruments mandolino (i.e., Italian for "mandolin"), mandoliola ("mandola" was already taken by something else, whether American builders made themselves aware of the precedent or not), and mandoloncello (analogous to the Italian "violoncello"). #He called the new ensemble "quartetto classico" and the older mandolin quartet format came to be called "quartetto romantico"; these names are still in use by classical circles.

Some old shops have been building mid-sized mandolin thingies all along. #Calace, e.g., differentiates by calling these things "mandola in C" and "mandola in G." #I'm not so fond of wedding an instrument's name to a set tuning...but I don't mind naming conventions based on a general range. #Finally, I'm getting to my point: for the mid-sized instruments, I tend to prefer to call the instrument commonly tuned G-d-a-e' "tenor mandola" and the instrument tuned c-g-d'-a' "alto mandola." #I like the logic and like the deference to precedential use of "mandola."

[zoukboy]

I've never been comfortable with Sobell usurping the terms "bouzouki" and "cittern" for his big mandolins because they were perfectly good names for different instruments that already existed.
Sobell only "usurped" the term cittern - he's not responsible for the use of "bouzouki" by the Irish players and English builders who were experimenting first with Greek instruments and then almost immediately with new, flat-backed "Irish" ones almost 10 years before Stefan had his first stab at it. By the way, Stefan built his first as an octave mandolin at the request of Dave Richardson of The Boys of the Lough. He didn't start calling them citterns until several years later, in the late 70s, I think.

[JPL]

Maybe I can talk someone into building an octave violin... Hmm....

stv
http://www.giannaviolins.com/vl/oct/griz.html

Haven't played a violin in twenty years, but this is tempting...

[Eugene]

Sobell only "usurped" the term cittern - he's not responsible for the use of "bouzouki" by the Irish players and English builders who were experimenting first with Greek instruments and then almost immediately with new, flat-backed "Irish" ones almost 10 years before Stefan had his first stab at it...
I won't disagree, but my point remains.

[Eugene]

Maybe I can talk someone into building an octave violin... Hmm....

stv
http://www.giannaviolins.com/vl/oct/griz.html

Haven't played a violin in twenty years, but this is tempting...
That's a standard (if a bit uncommon nowadays) instrument. It's usually called "tenor violin." For some real grooviness, check out the viola pomposa.

[Eugene]

...or, amongst mandokin, liuto cantabile.

[Jim Yates]

Quote (Eugene @ July 24 2006, 21:18)
I've never been comfortable with Sobell usurping the terms "bouzouki" and "cittern" for his big mandolins because they were perfectly good names for different instruments that already existed.

I must agree with this. Grit Laskin, although he no longer builds them, used the term "long necked mandolin", which made sense.
A friend of mine once asked me to play on a recording session and said,"Bring your monster mandolin along." Although he knew little about the mando family, I liked his term and use it regularly.

[zoukboy]

That's a standard (if a bit uncommon nowadays) instrument. It's usually called "tenor violin."[/QUOTE]
yes, but it has been around since the genesis of the violin family, which was originally an octet, not a quartet.

[zoukboy]

A friend of mine once proposed "bull mandolin" for the octave, taking his cue from "bull fiddle," which the upright bass is sometimes called in the southern US states where he is from.

[zoukboy]

I think the term "octave mandolin," if the instrument is tuned GDAE and built like a big mando, makes a lot of sense. So does "bouzouki" for the longer necked instruments that tend to be tuned in open or semi-open tunings like GDAD ADAD or GDGD. I've always thought there was a sort of anti-Irish or anti-Greek bias to the insistence on "cittern" by some. I prefer "bouzouki" or "Irish bouzouki," when applicable, since it honors the instrument's origin and recent evolution.

[David Westwick]

A friend of mine once proposed "bull mandolin" for the octave, taking his cue from "bull fiddle," which the upright bass is sometimes called in the southern US states where he is from.
... but for the sake of consistency, the "bull mandolin" should be a mando-bass, no?

[zoukboy]

A friend of mine once proposed "bull mandolin" for the octave, taking his cue from "bull fiddle," which the upright bass is sometimes called in the southern US states where he is from.
... but for the sake of consistency, the "bull mandolin" should be a mando-bass, no?
s'pose so...

[Bluegrasstjej]

I prefer "bouzouki" or "Irish bouzouki," when applicable, since it honors the instrument's origin and recent evolution.
I agree with you. A bouzouki is a bouzouki and a mandola is a mandola (in Sweden they say it's just a mandola with longer neck), and they are close related. That's it.

Btw, I talked with my husband and here in Sweden it's even more confusing. There's the bouzouki, the mandola that is usually tuned CGDA (but as with the bouzouki each has its own preference), then there's the mandolin and the octave mandolin that is tuned GDAE but one octave down. But the mandola is also called tenor mandola but meaning just simply a mandola. AND, as if that wasn't enough, some builder has custom made (for Ale Möller, I think) something called "låtmandola" (tune mandola), a mandola that would be more adapted for playing Swedish tunes, but I'm not sure what the difference is, perhaps something with the frets (I'm not good at luthier language even in Swedish!!). Now after all this confusion I must know everything about the mandolin family instruments.....

[Eugene]

Well, as I said, I am getting closer to comfortable with the new terminology...and closer to "bouzouki" or "Irish bouzouki" than to "cittern."

"Mandola" still was originally applied to the instrument tuned G-d-a-e' regarding Neapolitan-type instruments, and I prefer to use it still in deference to the precedent. In fact, the earliest extant instrument of the whole family is a large mandola by Gaetano Vinaccia dated 1744 (although there is some controversy regarding the exact date). "Tenor mandola" for the instrument tuned from c was an unfortunate misnomer that thankfully doesn't seem to be too widespread anymore. I still prefer "alto mandola" (c-g-d'-a') and "tenor mandola" (G-d-a-e').

[EdSherry]

I confess that I try to reserve the term "cittern" for a five-course (10-string) instrument, for which there doesn't seem to be any standardization on tuning (I tune my Sobell to DGdae' or sometimes to DGdad', but I've seen CGdae', DGdgd', GDgdg', DAdad', etc., etc.)

Unfortunately, there seems to have developed a split between common usage in the US and common usage in Europe and the UK over what to call an instrument tuned GDae'.

[David Westwick]

I confess that I try to reserve the term "cittern" for a five-course (10-string) instrument, for which there doesn't seem to be any standardization on tuning (I tune my Sobell to DGdae' or sometimes to DGdad', but I've seen CGdae', DGdgd', GDgdg', DAdad', etc., etc.)

Just to muddy the waters a little, if you have a 5 course instrument tuned CGdae', you could also call it Liuto Cantabile, the instrument that Eugene mentioned in an earlier post. I think I want one, but that's just MAS talking.

[Eugene]

Absolutely. In italy, 5-course mandolin family things called liuto cantabile (and similar) were built with the intended tuning C-G-d-a-e' from the 1880s on. The Calace shop still builds them. Dan Larson in Minnesota has begun building them. Scale is comparable to what Sobell came to call "cittern." In my mind, liuto cantabile would have precedent.