Luthier etiquette

[celtichead]

I have a question about working with a luthier. Understandably, most luthiers take pride in creating their own unique instruments & unique sounds. Is it impolite to approach a luthier and ask him/her to create an instrument that has a specific sound--one that is not their own unique sound? It seems that if someone has put effort into making their own unique sound, they might feel slighted if they were asked to create an instrument with another sound. On the other hand, some might see this task as a challenge and welcome the opportunity to create something new, or simply welcome the business. Anyone have any thoughts on this issue? Anyone have any suggestions for luthiers who are willing to work with clients to create a specific sound? If it helps, I’m still interested in carved top/arched top octave mandolins.

[otterly2k]

Celtichead-
If I was in your position, I'd be initiating conversations with several luthiers... asking preliminary questions, and getting a feel for their style and how they work with people. #Some luthiers make THEIR instrument... and are delighted when you want to order one. #Other luthiers delight in making YOUR instrument. #And I think there's a lot of middle ground in between.

I have only worked with one (Brian Dean), but prior to making that choice, I had conversations with many. #I liked several... and I think that it is a great environment right now for working with builders. #I believe it makes sense to do a little investigating to find someone whose style works well with your own.

In my experience, the luthiers I found were neither desperate for business nor interested in alienating customers... rather they would say pretty clearly how they liked to work, what they would consider, where their bottom lines were, etc.

IMHO, you are the customer... you should say what you are looking for... if a luthier does not have the time, interest or skills to meet your request, they should say so and you are free to take your business elsewhere. There may be some compromises to make... and ultimately, it is a negotiating process. #For instance, a luthier might say "well, I can do that for you, but I'd recommend a variation on your idea based on my experience"... and then you have to decide whether to insist on your idea or go with the builder's recommendation.

I'd add that if you're looking for someone who can dial in on a particular kind of tone, it may be worthwhile to go with a builder who has been building OM's for a while, and it would be legitimate to ask how many OM's the builder has made. At the very least, you should ask them to explain how they'd approach the issue of your tone request, and what experience they have that leads them to that strategy.

Re: carved/arched octaves... have you narrowed the field at all?

[judith]

Hey - I just had a short scale OM made by Chris Baird (Arches). We talked about sound and he asked me to describe the sound I was looking for....i.e. resonant, loud, long sustain without being too "boomy" or "tubby." I wanted even-ness across the strings - that is, clear and sweet sounding in the middle and treble range, with a bit of oomph in the bass. I believe he delivered those things. That being said, I don't think that how an instrument will sound is entirely predictable. If it were, then all the mandos from one maker would be identical-sounding. There are likely slight variations in the process and in the wood itself that have an impact on sound.Then of course, there is the style of the player - light touch, heavy touch, etc. If at all possible, find a way of hearing what an instrument by a particular builder sounds like....i.e. there are sound clips on the Arches website, and on the Nyberg website and I am sure on others. That way, you will not be taking a total gamble. Best of luck. Judith

[sunburst]

You've answered your own question, for the most part.
Some luthiers would look at it as a challenge, some would look at you as someone who needs another luthier- one who builds what you want to hear.

As a luthier myself, here's what I think:

It doesn't hurt to ask.
If the luthier is interested in trying to build your sound, continue talking. If the luthier doesn't want to try to match a sound, thank him/her for his/her time and move on prompty rather than insisting.

Now for some practical poinnts:
Though I've built a few mandolins, and feel I have some control of the sound, I've only built one carved octave. I had no good idea what that instrument would sound like until it was done. As it turns out, the customer and I both think it sounds great, but if I were called upon to build another different sounding octave, I would only have vague ideas of what to change to modify the sound. I suspect I would have to build half a dozen or more to start to feel like I have the control that I now feel I have with mandolins.
What that means is; it would take someone with quite a bit of octave-building experience to build a "custom sound", and, as I'm sure you know, even standard instruments from the same builder will have somewhat different sounds, so a sound "in the range of" what you want is all you can probably hope for.
Another thing that means is; The more experienced octave builders are the ones most likely to be able to build you the sound you want, but are also most likely to have a "signature" sound, and might be the least likely to want to build something that sounds very much different than that.

I think it all comes down to "It doesn't hurt to ask", and let the individual builder decide if he/she is OK with the project.

Good luck with getting the instrument you want.


PS. Sorry for the redundancies, there were no other responces when I strarted typing.

[zoukboy]

Celtichead,

My advice would be to try and identify what characteristics you want, find a builder (or several) whose work is in the ballpark, and then discuss with them the variables of design and wood choice that will get you closest to the mark.

Builders will tell you that selecting a particular piece of wood, for the top, for instance, and then making choices for that piece, is as important as the design to the sonic results.

The more articulate you can be about what you want the better. If you can provide recorded examples of instruments that have characteristics you like, then all the better.

One incredible builder I know likes nothing better than for a prospective client to visit so he can hear them play in person, or barring that, provide a recording of their playing. He feels that to build a truly custom instrument he needs to hear the client play. He did it for me about 12 years ago and I must say he made choices in building that instrument that were great for my playing but which I could not have articulated, so sometimes the builder knows best.

Good luck!

[EdSherry]

The choice of woods can have a significant influence on sound (cedar vs. spruce for the top, maple vs. mahogany vs. koa vs. rosewood for back and sides). #Even though different luthiers have "their own" sounds, luthiers can vary the sound by the choice of woods, hence the emphasis should be on "sounds" (plural). #

And, of course, the player's own style (type of music, choice of pick, how hard or soft he/she plays, etc.) makes a major difference to the overall outcome.

Some luthiers (probably the small minority) know that there is demand for whatever they make, and simply don't have the time to "experiment," especially if the (potential) customer is not able to clearly articulate what he/she wants. #Or a luthier might conclude that his/her specialty is not what the customer needs (e.g., you wouldn't go to Robert Benedetto, a preeminent archtop guitar builder, to have him make you a classical guitar), and will suggest that the customer go to a luthier whose products are more in line with what the customer wants/needs.

But most of the luthiers I know will work with a customer to find out what the customer has in mind. #(That can be VERY difficult to articulate clearly, which is why, as Roger says, some luthiers want to hear the customer play in person to see what's up.) #

I've never met a good luthier who wasn't willing to at least talk with a serious potential customer (as opposed to someone who clearly is just "kicking the tires"), as long as (a) the customer has done his/her homework (e.g., looking at the luthier's website, if there is one -- failing to do so strikes me as both rude and a waste of everyone's time) and (b) the customer has some ability to describe what he/she wants (which, again, often comes down to "doing your homework" at a general level).

With respect to OMs in particular, while some luthiers have their own "niche" (e.g., Sobell's instruments), many (e.g., Phil Crump) have a variety of offerings and are willing to make what the customer wants (within reason!).

[danb]

I am in the school of "pick a builder whose stuff you already like and cut them all the slack you can" of ordering instruments.

[steve V. johnson]

With anyone who builds custom -anything-, there seem to be two general ways to approach a project: A) You want what they have done, that for which they have become known, with or without some slight variations, or; B) You know what -you- want and you want to see if they can build to your specs/needs and include their characteristic features, more or less.

A third approach can happen when there is the luxury of the time and money to experiment, and that's often a longer process in which the artisan and the client work together to design something that hasn't been done before.

Of course, all these approaches meld and overlap in real life...

I've had the most success when I've spent time and effort in envisioning and researching my end of the thing before I approached the artisans, and when I've known what I wanted, or narrowed the variables quite a bit.

When I got my first custom instrument from John Greven back in 1976-8, he had to teach me a whole lot about lutherie in order for us to collaborate, but he was very patient with me and it went very well. I still have that guitar, and I still love it.
There have been a bunch since then, and the most recent was a Phil Crump B-II bouzouki, and for that one I knew what that Phil did and I wanted to experience his work his way, so I only did some small cosmetic variations to make the B-II 'mine'.

If I had enough 'disposable income' to experiment, I'd be commissioning instruments all the time, with design variations that I think of (all the time), from various builders, just to see how the instruments would work. Several times I've made suggestions to instrument dealers and then found out later that they'd ordered the instruments and that they'd sold, and worked, well. So that's encourage my aspirations, but I haven't the ability (just now...) to play the game the way I'd like...

stv

[DryBones]

I have to chime in on this. Being left-handed can cause all sorts of trouble it seems. I was trying to have an "affordable" mandolin built for me by a builder whose been mentioned on here a time or two and when I got around to asking about the left hand bridge and nut I was told "he only uses right hand bridges because they work the same and no one has ever complained, but if I wanted a left hand bridge I could buy one and send it to him and he would install it for me". Well, I suggested a place where he could buy a left hand bridge for my mando and any other leftys in his future and since that email I have never heard from him again. I guess I was just too much trouble for him. Besides I am sure he has a waiting list so why be bothered? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif
Now you know 1 of the reasons I have a Mid-Mo and 2 Eastmans..built properly, sound great, affordable. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif