Beginner mandolin?

[Oive]

What is the best entry level mandolin for under 700.00? I would prefer the F style.

[Eric F.]

Well, let me be the first to say that the best instrument for less than $700 is going to be an A style. The scroll is labor intensive and adds quite a bit of cost to an instrument.

You have many options, including a handmade Glenn mandolin (search the archives here), possibly a used Breedlove, Mid-Missouri and Eastman. There have been many threads recently on beginner mandolins, so poke around the board a bit and read them, then get out and play a bunch - or have someone play them for you. Good luck, and have fun.

[fatt-dad]

Welcome Oive! I'll be the first of many that'll try my best to talk you out of getting a "cheap" (yeah, like $700.00's cheap) F-style mandolin. The fact of the matter is that the best value for your money (to get a good quality sound and playability) is to buy an A-style mandolin or a "flat-top" mandolin. You will be much happier with the sound that you're making. If you go with a used mandolin, you will likely even get a better value for your money. Check out the classifieds right here for something in your price range and let the seller know what you're interested in.

If you are just starting out, I'd look at the entry level Eastman mandolins or the Mid-Missouri "flat top" mandolins. They may not look like what the bluegrass guys are playing, but there's nothing like a good entry level mandolin that you can keep for a lifetime. Everybody needs a backup - may as well make it your first mandolin. After you understand what's out there in the F-mandolin market you can look at getting an F-model in your price range. I suspect that you'd need more like $2,500.00 to get a nice one, however.

Enjoy the hunt!

fatt-dad

[jackofall]

Eastmans are SO great for the ludicrously low price - I have one and am saving frantically for a second. Er... and maybe a third, but don't tell the wife until after I buy the flowers and the new dress... and the holiday in Ireland...

[Smyers]

If you're really bent on an F style, talk to Dennis at The Mandolin Store (www.themandolinstore.com) as he carries a good selection of new and use Eastman's, like the 515. He lists new ones for $840. He get used ones in trade all of the time.

[Oive]

Thanks everyone for your input so far,the Eastman seems like the way to go!

[jenford]

I'm not overly impressed with the Eastmans. They are well built and beautiful to look at - but the sound - well the sound just doesn't overwhelm me. I'd compare a nice Johnson F to a Eastman - sound pretty much the same to me. You'll save some bucks. I do love my mid-missouri and my flatiron pancake - well the sound - the sound .

Best,
Jen Ford

[DryBones]

Jen,
It's that flat top thing. I have a Mid-Mo and an Eastman, I love them both for different reasons/sounds but the Mid-Mo gets more of my attention when just noolin' around with melodies.

[kww]

If I had that budget, I would look seriously at the Paris Swing (http://www.themandolinstore.com/Scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=7580) models that themandolinstore.com has on sale.

Good reviews, good price, but a somewhat unpopular style has brought the price way down from that supplier.

[Richard Russell]

I really do recommend Eastman mandolins. I own a Mid-Missouri and love it. In fact, it is now my only mandolin and I really don't want anything else... ... ... just kidding! Honestly, I recently sold a fabulous Flatiron Fest. A, which was great for what it was designed to do - cut through just about any jam session! It lacked sweetness of tone and warmth, which the Mid-mo has. All of this is player preference. I recently played a used Eastman 605 A model that REALLY had it as far as volume and nice bright tone. Eastman and Mid-mo are both tremendous values in the mandolin world, really.

[chuck.naill]

What is the best entry level mandolin for under 700.00? I would prefer the F style.

Why not just get it over with and buy a $20,000 Gilchrist. This way you will be forced into greatness.

chuck

[Brady Smith]

Michael Kelly (F style)...shop around and you should be able to find a new one for $500 or less.

[Stephen Perry]

In comparisons, make sure the setup and adjustment are equivalent. And the break in period. Many many good new mandolins find their way to me sounding less than they should. In almost all instances, the problem is simply setup, adjustment, and the like. Blanket statements about particular brands based on comparison of new, marginally set up, unplayed instruments against familiar, well set up, broken in instruments are pretty much meaningless. Given that various brands come from suppliers with different amounts of setup, one can anticipate that different brands will do very differently in different shops depending on the level and quality of in-store setup. Tastes in mandolin sound and response also differ wildly.

[J. Mark Lane]

Eastmans are overpriced, overhyped junk. You may as well buy a cheap Saga instrument (Kentucky, Michael Kelly, Johnson). The difference in sound is minimal, and you'll save a lot of money. If you play for more than six months, you'll outgrow any of these Asian imports anyway, and you'll want a real mandolin. You cannot buy a real mandolin in an F style for $700 (unless you get real lucky on a used instrument). Buy a Kentucky KM150S from Elderly and save your money. In six months or so, buy a decent American made mandolin for $1500-2000. That will last you a year or two. When you outgrow that (you'll know it), buy a custom mandolin from one of the builders you will learn about in the meantime.

Or, buy a Glenn or Morris A style mandolin now for $700, and it will be sufficient for at least a year or two.

[csstanley]

Eastmans are overpriced, overhyped junk.
Yeah, we know about OPINION's. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

But of course, if we were all lawyers we could buy anything we want.

I play EVERYDAY and even play in a group and my 515 does just fine. Even gets a lot of compliments.

But you know, some people just don't know do they? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Ted Eschliman]

Yes, lots of opinions here, some with every kind intention of being helpful and beneficial, some expressed merely to yield dramatic effect and stir flaming reaction. Some, as if you haven't already noticed, expressed with the crude style and tact of an unflushed toilet.

Read 'em all, and remember, everyone of them is true because you read it on the internet...

[PaulO]

Well Ovie, all of the folks who have responded have some great suggestions, but I'd like to throw one in too. Josh Pinkham's dad sells Elvenwood mandos http://www.elvenwoodmandolins.com/. I own one and it's great. Jeff and his crew have quite a following and it will fit your budget.

If anyone else has experience with these I hope they will pipe up, but for a good sounding, easy to play mando it's been a great find for me. Buy the top of the line F model, it's great and Jeff Pinkham will set it up and send it. The legend with a case is $600 I think.

Paul

[metalmandolin]

So...where is all this Eastman "overhype" exactly? And what makes them "junk"? The difference between my Eastman 615 and your "fill-in-the-blank" is measured in dollars and cents ONLY! I'd put my personal mandolin up against anything out there for 5x the price.
It's been said that you have to "pick through" Eastmans to find a good one. Guess what...you had better pick through ANY brand before you buy sight unseen.
There IS a such thing as a utility mando that sounds as good as an investment mando. I know...I own one.
What do I know? I'm just a guy that was a teacher for 3 years running at Kaufman's Mando Kamp, staff picker at Smoky Mtn. Banjo Academy, solo artist, and teacher with 50+ students per week and a waiting list.
Understand that I'm not trying to blow my own horn here, but it's time that I as a professional, full-time musician, stand up against this silliness.
Wake up...the reason pickers are gettin' better could be because you don't have to be independently wealthy to have a good instrument anymore. So...Nah..Nah nah nah nah!!! Just having fun, of course, but I think you get my point. An American mando, hand built in a factory just like an Eastman, would vary in tone also, being WOOD, and cost $1500-2200 for an A and $2500-4500 for an F, add $1500 for full varnish. Would they all sound good? Probably not to me, having observed that same inconsistency and tonal variation in ALL but the TOP ECHELON builders ($8500 and up).

[DryBones]

I guess I will just have to sell my "junk" Eastman 505 and lay my pick down until I can afford to drop a few grand on a real mandolin.... oh wait, I can still play my Mid-Mo! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[otterly2k]

To be fair, Oive did ASK for opinions. And to a question like "what's the best..." that's all any of us can offer.

And here's mine.
While I wouldn't use the same tone or language as Mark, I have yet to meet Eastmans that live up to the raves they get here on the Cafe. I'm not saying that anyone's mando isn't a "real" mando... However, I've tried several Eastmans, and the ones I've had a chance to try sounded rather thin to me. I met one with a tone that I really liked (a two-point oval), which restored my willingness to believe that some of them may be quite good. All that to say that, like other mass produced instruments, there can be some real gems and some duds and everything in between, and I think it's especially important to make these purchases based on having tried them IN VIVO, if at all possible, and to make sure to set aside some $$ for a good set up.

Another good strategy at that price point is to look for a used/played in instrument in good condition. Used Breedlove Quartzes often come up for about $700, or Rigel A naturals (rarer, cuz they don't make them any more), and some others. There's a bit of risk in buying used, but your $$ can certainly go further.

At any rate... it doesn't make sense to me to get in pissing matches about these instruments.

[Stephen Perry]

To reiterate: the initial performance differences between mandolins of different brands, different individual mandolins, and at different shops become much much less after equivalent setup, advanced work, and break in.

Take a look at bicycles. One can buy essentially identical machines from something like "bikesource" or from a hot-shot local shop. The paint may differ, but the frame is the same high-quality Taiwanese aluminum/carbon or whatever. The one from "bikesource" simply won't work worth beans. The one from the hot-shot shop will. The entire difference springs from basic setup and advanced professional adjustment. Reviews of these bikes (and I read them) are all over the place. The problems I read are mainly setup and adjustment issues.

Same with mandolins. The great majority of the well made, small shop, well designed brands out there do very well once they're gone through. Some brands come through with poor basic setup. Some with excellent basic setup. Some in between. Comparing setup is fair, but needs to be distinguished from comparison of the ultimate potential of an instrument.

"In show business, hyperbole (known as hype or media hype) is the practice of spending money on public relations in an attempt to bolster public interest in (for example) a movie, television show, or performing artist. Often the entertainment value of the thing being hyped is exaggerated."

from Wikepedia

Eastman seems particularly weak in the spending money on advertising department. The statements I read that promote Eastman, Gibson, Weber, Glenn, etc are mostly on this forum and aren't from the makers. Different people like different things.

Try, test, and compare, but compare items with equal setup and adjustment. Anything else isn't a comparison of the instruments themselves.

[J. Mark Lane]

OK, let me try that again.

There are many mandolins that could serve you well as a beginner. I was there just a couple of years ago, and I started with a Kentucky KM150S. For about $200, these are decent for starting out. There are plenty of others that are similar, mostly coming out of the same factory.

My *opinion* (is there anything else, really?) of Eastmans is no secret around here. I apologize if my opinion is offensive to anyone. I've played quite a few of them. I should temper my comments a bit (inspired by Karen).

Eastmans are well-constructed, have very nice fit and finish, and seem to intonate quite well. I have played a few that I like the sound of, but most of the ones I have played didn't sound all that remarkable, given their price. It is my view that when one is paying over $1500 for a mandolin, it should sound pretty good. And there are plenty out there in that price range that do. So when I play an Eastman in that range and it doesn't sound very good, I am disappointed.

The lower level Eastmans do seem to be a pretty good bargain. For $700-800, there probably isn't anything in a *production* mandolin that is as good. It is my opinion that the small builders (like Glenn and Morris) make a better instrument for that kind of price, but it won't "look" as nice, and it might not have the same ease of resale. I would guess that if you purchased from Steve at Gianna Violins, and had him set it up, you could get a pretty good instrument (as opposed to just ordering one from someone online). Should be fine, and would look and feel nice.

My previous comments were slightly tongue-in-cheek, although admittedly one might have to know me well to read that into them. On the other hand, a couple of months ago, there was a boat up on Lake George with a bunch of tourists on it.... Somebody saw something, and everyone ran to one side of the boat. The boat tipped over, and everyone fell in. .... I'm staying on the other side, and hopefully that little bit of balance might help avoid a capsize. You can thank me later.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Gribs]

After reading alot here last summer, I chose a Mid Missouri M1 as my first mandolin and was not disappointed. I just upgraded (after much searching and testing to a Collings MT) but the Mid Mo M1 is still an excellent instrument and I plan to keep mine. I think Mid Missouri focuses on good materials, hardware, and craftsmanship. Their mando's are beautifully simple in design, all solid wood, made in the USA, and sound wonderful, especially for celtic music. I am told by the folks at the Podium that several local celtic mando players prefer the Mid Mo's as their main instrument because of the sound. The prices have gone up alot on new model Mid Mo's since last year (got my M1 for 325 with case last summer and now there is one on sale at the Podium in Minneapolis for 465 with case) but are still reasonable.

[pager]

I have to agree with Roscoe on this one. AS a professional player with a touring bluegrass band, I play an Eastman F. After I found mine, I sold my F mando from a major maker because it simply did not stand up in tone to the Eastman. I don't want to blow my horn either, but I have a masters degree in music, a major in jazz, and I perform full time. Does that mean my ears are better? No. I just prefer the sound of the Eastman. The one I have is a cannon. If it wasn't, I would not be playing it. So for ME, the Eastman works. It may not for you. The sound that you expect is going to be differnet for you, than the sound that I want. OK. Time for Eastman 101. Eastman is a VERY small company that produces about 600 mandolins a year. Yes, I said 600. They are made by hand, hand carved, tap tuned, with hide glue and varnish finish. They have a very small shop, under the direction of a master luther. I really don't see how you can compare a company like Eastman that makes 600 mandolins a year, to a company like Saga that mass produces thousands of instruments a year. I am not sure that a company that only makes 600 or so mandos a year can be called a "production" company. But then again, you are welcome to your opinion. Here is the magic of what it is all about. You will find folks playing great sounding Gibson's, Webers, Collings, and independent makers at festivals. Eastman's too. The one thing I notice at festivals is that the folks that are playing and jamming are happy. Smiling. It does not really matter if they are playing a 5k mando or a 250.00 dollar mando. It's ALL OK, as long as we remember why we are here. It's all about the love of music. The notion that it can make us happy. The power that it can make others happy. It's not so much what brand you play, but what you play. What you give to yourself and others. That is what playing the mandolin is all about.

[Avi Ziv]

Here's another idea. How about if one of the budding builders around here put together one of the kits for Olive? Good value for Olive and good exposure for a builder?

Just a thought

Avi

[Steve L]

There's a used Breedlove OF "A" style in the classifieds for $740 with a cast tailpiece and a case. That would be a great starter. I am in no way involved with that sale.

[kww]

I just went through the process of buying my first mandolin, and can tell you that I am happy with my Lark in the Morning tricordia, which I bought for $265. Am I going to take the world stage by storm with it? No. Am I going be able to learn the basics of mandolin and play pretty sounding music with it? Certainly.

The only reason I didn't recommend it on my first post is your preference for an F-style. One of my decision points was that I didn't want to buy an A-style or F-style.

[Darren Kern]

Here's another idea. How about if one of the budding builders around here put together one of the kits for Olive? Good value for Olive and good exposure for a builder?

Just a thought

Avi
That's not a bad idea, Avi, but I suspect that like most of us when we started playing, Oive is anxious to get started playing right away, and waiting on one to be built might be torturous http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[otterly2k]

I notice Oive hasn't been back. I hope we didn't sceer him off!

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

[DryBones]

probably thinks we are a bunch of primadona's and went and bought a banjo!

[csstanley]

Here's another idea. How about if one of the budding builders around here put together one of the kits for Olive? Good value for Olive and good exposure for a builder?

Just a thought

Avi
That's not a bad idea, Avi, but I suspect that like most of us when we started playing, Oive is anxious to get started playing right away, and waiting on one to be built might be torturous http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
I got one i'm wanting to sale.

I posted pics of it up in the pictures section. My second one and it sounds great.

Strung up with D'Addario J-75's.

Will part iwth it at a generous price, with a gig bag to boot.

[A-3]

1. I think a used korean-made Kentucy 650 would be a great mandolin in that price range. They had a thin lacquer finish and were well made. The one that I have is very loud and has a complex-woody sound like a much more expensive mandolin.

2. I am surprized to hear Eastman that puts out only 600 a year.

3. Is there a mail-order-store that sells new Mid-Mo (with plenty of them in stock)?

4. I do not think that a retailer for a brand should be defending that brand in this type discussion.

[Oive]

Hi everyone I am still here and absorbing all the great ideas and opinions!!I have plenty of time to make a decision,meanwhile i will stay on the banjo and guitar:)

[Stephen Perry]

Certainly the used market bears looking into. Frets.com is worth looking through first. I get a fair number of aftermarket purchases through for work, as well as some early-effort small maker mandolins. Truss rod adjustments and frets are more often off than not, in addition to the usual nut and bridge adjustment needs. There are a couple of imported brands that always need fret work, more than tweeking a couple of frets. But that type of setup and maintenance isn't expensive. An advantage in the mandolin world is that many players churn their holdings constantly, putting perfectly good mandolins on the market because . . . well, I can't figure out why. They just do.

Some vintages of Kentuckys really seem to light up well.
Lower end Webers have lots of potential
I like Breedloves, they just don't fit into east Tennessee very well
Lots of other makes work nicely, especially at the entry level.

Regardless, if you're buying used have the instrument checked out carefully. I have violin clients who have sellers send instruments to me directly for inspection prior to looking at the instruments themselves. This seems a quite reasonable thing to do, although probably not as necessary for mandolins. Mandolins aren't as old and fragile as many violins!

Do be careful dealing at a distance. Make sure you can find anyone you send money to. With businesses, check the BBB, make sure the business is really registered.

[Ted Eschliman]

4. I do not think that a retailer for a brand should be defending that brand in this type discussion.
You lost me on that point. What if a retailer sells six our seven brands? This disqualifies discussion from all those brands? I would think someone with hands-on experience with the "guts" of MANY instruments would be able to yield incredible insight, even if the bulk of these were just one brand.

Think about it. The majority of the posters, if very fortunate, have probably experienced 2, 3, 4, maybe 8?, of one manufacturer's product. A dealer/repair tech who has gone through 24, 36, 100? of a manufacturer's instruments will most certainly see things on both broader AND detailed scale about what's right and wrong about the building process.

All we ask is this association is disclosed in their signature line. We're intelligent adults. We can make our own judgements about whether a comment is for personal commerce or a helpful observation to educate the community.

[Steve L]

I agree with Ted. A knowledgeable retailer has a wider base of comparison for instruments than most people. That type of insight is really valuable in a forum like this. You can always tell if someone is trying to hustle something.

[JEStanek]

I'm with Ted on this as well. Aside from the fact that he acknowledges his Rigel-ness in any post dealing with reviews of mandolins, and I've never seen any of the other retailers outright say "buy from me" I feel that an individuals posting record, and quality of their post immenently qualifies them to comment on the instruments they have played, serviced, and sold. Ultimately, those posts help me decide whom I trust for pruchasing instruments from as there ins't a mando shop in my neck of the woods selling all the brands I may be interested in.

Jamie

Jamie

[Santiago]

I think most retailers worth their salt know that if you steer a beginner with integrity toward a nice sounding, easy-to-play instrument whose looks gratify their professional ambitions, they have a much higher chance of creating a long-term relationship toward selling them strings, accessories, music, upgrades and a Gibson or two down the line. Helping a beginner, online or in person, is just good business all around. A full-line shop can offer more choices and options, and perhaps broader vendor knowledge, though some see that as a bias.

[otterly2k]

There are several retailers and many builders who frequent this board. All of them participate wearing more than one hat... but in the balance, it seems to me that they contribute a great deal to the body of information (mando specific and otherwise) and to the community in general. Their business interests are fully disclosed, and they do not troll inappropriately for business in the conversations here.

In some ways, I'm sure, their participation creates publicity for their businesses... and I'm sure there are many players here who would choose to do business with someone they feel connected to through shared participation in this community... I'm fine with that. They put in the time, and they give to this community. If they benefit as well, it's ok with me.

[dang]

I nominate this thread for the best "Beginner Mandolin" thread... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[jasona]

Did you see the Ratcliff for $950 in the classifieds? That is a great deal and will be all the mandolin you would need for the rest of your life.

[Stephen Perry]

Ditto. Go for the Ratcliff. I'm tempted myself.

[cooper4205]

someone mentioned used flatirons, what were the different trim levels for the carlson-signed A-5 (i think it is from '86), with no sunburst or binding on the back or headstock, is that a performer or artist? my friend offered one to me for $650 yesterday. i just bought an old alvarez, but that is too good of an investment. do you think thats about as low as you could hope to get one? will i be passing up a one time chance,or what? according to everyone that had heard it or played it, including will parsons, says its one of the best mandolins he's ever played. just curious.

[pickinNgrinnin]

The early Flatirons did not have an Festival, Performer or Artist designation. I believe with the A models, they were designated A5 A5-1 and A5-2. The main differences being in the amount of trim.

Let me know if you decide NOT to buy this A5. Assuming the Mando is in good condition, at that price, it would be a steal. Your friend is essentially giving this one away. I'd sell the old Alvarez if it meant you were able to buy this one.

OK, I'm looking forward to hearing from you http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[cooper4205]

that's what i'm thinking about doing (selling the alvarez) I've still got a few days to butter up the wife. i think he was offering that low price to me, but if i pass is up i still think he would let it go for around $800 or so. it has a fretboard riser block (the "ears") and a blocked-off extended fretboard. the mando is in great condition, too. if steve carlson signed it (like this one) can't they fetch around $1500 or more.

[kestrel]

Oive - Lots of good stuff (and some just for fun) coming down, here, but whatever instrument you decide upon, pay close attention to what Steve Perry has to say. With real estate, it might be location, location, location, but with mandolins, mandolas, whatever, IMHO, it's set-up, set-up, setup! I play a lowly Korean made, Morgan Monroe, MMS-4. I got lucky, buying online. It sounded good from the git-go. But the set-up sucked. I built a bone nut - lowering the strings - put an Allen cast tailpiece, and one of Steve Smith's ebony bridges, and Jazzmando J-11 strings on her (I play ITM), and I've had Gibson players express amazement at the awesome sound that comes from this lowly - but well set up - factory made box.