Monteleone or Downpayment on Home

[Corbin Smith]

Okay, so Monteleones went for 3000 bucks just 15 years ago. Can someone help me understand how the price made the astronomical leap to $25,000? And why the apparently ambiguous, yet generally accepted, price of 25k?

[mandodon]

Enough people out there must think a mandolin can be worth a downpayment on a home to keep the business alive at current pricing.

Hey...people blow that kind of money in Vegas all the time, so you really can't blame someone for going after that market.

[Tom C]

I would say because people do not want to wait on a 7 year list. Yes, many people have 25K that they would spend to get it tomorrow (not me though). John is committed to prices he gave 7 years ago. People now getting theirs can sell it for a big profit. So why not boost your own prices? No way would I spend that much on any new mando as it would do more good in other places. But like I said, somebody with money may not even think twice.

[John Flynn]

Like I used to tell my Econ. 101 students. It's always supply and demand. The Montelones are obviously in high demand and low supply. Now, the real question is why the high demand? My guess: High quality, of course, but coupled with a nameplate that has become hot and collectors out there with a lot of money to spend.

[Gail Hester]

Its simple supply and demand, the price goes to what the market will bare. Many are disgruntled about it but the reality is that a Monteleone or a Gil or a Dude is good enough and rare enough that those who can afford it will pay the market price to own one. The builders don’t establish the market price, the competing buyers do.

[Corbin Smith]

Yeah, I figured I'd get the ol' supply/demand explanation. Thanks for your time, guys. I'd be interested to know how the emotional reactions people have to the whole event contribute to the price inflation. Specifically, I'd venture to say that the very "grumbling" that people do about the "inflated prices" of Monteleones could directly lead to more demand for them, thus raising the price even more. For, what is this grumbling really about - deep coveting for the object which when voiced inspires more coveting by others. Ironic, eh? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Psychology and economics - a fascinating link...

[jlb]

I think alot of the grumbling comes from the perception that the spike upwards in going prices for the highest end mandolins has a ripple effect that raises prices on the mid-range mandos, which indeed have also spiked upwards, though certainly not as exponentially, in price in recent years.

I don't know what the reality is. Does the fact that a Monteleone costs $25,000 make it seem that $3,500 for Mando X is a reasonable price to ask???

Yep, the old supply-and-demand. #I recently heard someone say something about "stating the obvious as if it were profound". #If the price went from $3000 to $25000 in 15 years, then something changed in the 15 years. #Was it the supply or the demand? #Why?

This will be very complicated because there is the demand for mandolins in general and the demand for high end mandolins. #There is the inflation effect. #There is the effect of changes in disposable income on the demand curve. #Did "Oh Brother" shift the demand curve? #Did the price increase attract investors? #IF those last two were major effects there will be a drop in prices at some point when those effects are removed.

Since the whole quality thing is subjective you might get into a circular effect. #That is, a signficant number of people can't judge the quality of perfume and wine and use price as a proxy for quality. #I'm sure some people buy mandolins that way (no one on the cafe of course).

[mandodon]

I think we can safely assume that the OBWAT effect is no longer a "fad impact". Those folks who were turned onto mando-playing by the movie have either stuck with it or moved on by this point.

I mean the film is now 4 years old...fads usually last 1/8th of that time.

[Big Joe]

Let's see...why would someone pay that kind of money for a mandolin...
What is the price of a good bass boat. Or a good set of golf clubs and a cart. Or a hunting cabin in the mountains. Or a high end set of guns. I've even seen sewing machines for home use about ten grand. Different strokes for different folks. I love to fish, but I'd much rather have my Master Model than the best bass boat on the market. Every body has a set of priorities for their money. Some put it in hobbies, some in their house, some in stocks, some in the bank, and some in mandolins. I bought my first Gilchrist for $3500 bucks in 94. It was wonderful. It sold eight months later for $6500. They are now over twenty grand. They are no better than the ones I had then. OF course, it is easier for me to buy my master model now than it was to buy the Gilchrist then. Something about getting the kids all raised and the house paid off that makes ones economics a little different. Some of the members on the cafe that now think an upper end mandolin is impossible for them to purchase may find it not so impossible in a few years. I heard it said once that a persons priorities will be supported by their activities. Oh well, just the thoughts of a potential mad man http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[Gail Hester]

I’m not sure the price of a Monteleone has any effect on the $3500 mandolin market. The reality with mandolins is that they are exhaustively laborious to build and for a small builder take typically 4-8 weeks of full time effort if all goes well. How much would you pay a dentist or a mechanic for that kind of time investment? Production mandolins certainly are faster but there are costs associated with the increased production rate and overhead. The good news is that there are lots of great builders today producing wonderful, high quality mandolins at a fraction of the price of a Monteleone. As a buyer you have to be smart and know what you want and understand what you are getting. Many who own a mandolin want a better one; it fuels MAS so it’s always best to buy the most mandolin you can afford. Whether a $500 or $5000, all mandolins sell for what some buyer will pay.

[Dru Lee Parsec]

Joe, You're exactly right.

I remember what Bob Bennedetto once said. He said that whenever his waiting list was above 2 years he's raise his prices. Obviously the perceived value was high enough for people to pay what he asked for. If the price was too high then his waiting list would be zero.

LivinSimple. You mean to tell me that there are places in the country where $25,000 is a down payment on a house? I thought that was more like 6 months of morgage payments! Oh wait, I'm tainted by the San Diego housing market. ;)

Dru Lee-

I know places where $25K will buy two or three houses... None of them where I want to live.

[sunburst]

a signficant number of people can't judge the quality of perfume and wine and use price as a proxy for quality. I'm sure some people buy mandolins that way (no one on the cafe of course).
Monteleone mandos are expensive for several reasons, but one of the main reasons is because he has built a large number of instruments at a consistantly high level of quality. It all does boil down to supply and demand.

The buyer can take into consideration resale value and pride of ownership as well as the name on the peghead, these being things that raise the market value, but high quality is high quality regardless of the name on the peghead.

If one can judge quality for oneself and learn to trust ones own judgement, the bargains in the market become obvious. There is no reason to forgo quality because you can't afford or do not want to pay for a Monteleone, Gilchrist, or whatever name is at the top of the heap in the current market.

In my opinion, there is no reason to grumble about market prices as long as there are as many good builders as there are now and at as many price points. Those who want to pay $25000 or whatever are free to, and they are not depriving anyone of a quality instrument by doing so.

According to the Cost of living calculator (http://www.aier.org/cgi-aier/colcalculator.cgi), something that cost $3,000 in 1989 would cost about $4,500 in 2004 based solely on inflation.

I'm not sure if these price over time discussions are really worthwhile. #It is too late to buy at the old price and "past performance is not a guarantee of future performance". #Since all commodities have their own supply and demand, comparing to other non-similar items isn't relevant. #

To the extent that this is a topic worthy of discussion (and since it comes up about every two months someone wants to discuss it), supply and demand is really a non-answer.

[cutbait2]

i went to a BG festival a week ago where about half the top acts in BG performed. i didn't check all the headstocks but the best sounding (to me) was a small builder whose prices are very reasonable. the second best sounding (to me)was another. in the past two weeks i played the first F by a now popular builder and the 2nd F by Lon Williamson. both were very good sounding instruments. point; there's some great custom builders out there building great product at reasonable if you know what you are looking for and don't need the name on the headstock.

[krishna]

If I might put in my two cents worth. Listen, when I first mentioned having a Monteleone, (It makes a Big Splash at festivals and I thought it would be cool here to!)I was new to the site. I am now getting sorry I said anything about it. I did'nt intend for these threads about Canadian prices paid , American prices paid, how much when, and so on.I have'nt seen this thread before right now. I realize we #are just talkin...and ,in it's own right, this is a valid topic, sooo.. Anyway , THIS THREAD IS ABOUT Grand Artist pricing. (someone correct me if they know better OK?)My understanding about part of the current pricing thing with them is that John KNEW he could be making MUCH more $$$ on #building archtop guitars,(Do you know how well known and prized his guitars are? He is one of the top archtop builders in the world) so he slowed down (or stopped compleatly I was told ) making mandolins. Maybe ,if this is true, John wanted to see what would happen to the market for his prized axes. If I had been him, it would certanly be something I would consider. AND he needed more experience building archtops #sooo...To prove or disprove this we'd need need to know what he made when, and so-onnnn.. and I don't think it's anyones business anyway......( I know you did'nt ask but my story is this.. ) Blame David Grisman. At one point, it was said he had 3 Grand Artists, and I was an Impressionable 24 year old who had never even seen a Monteleone in the flesh, with some money for a downpayment, A stack of FRETS mags, and heaps of glowing reviews fresh in my mind. It took me 2 years to decide and then two years to pay it off, and the day I got it, I knew it was worth every dime. In another thread I said how I did'nt know untill about 4 or 5 years ago, (after a convo with George Gruuen(?) )that it was worth a dime more than what I paid.I thought If I told you mandoholics how it came to be in my hot little hands, it might make me seem less ...lucky??? .PS..Don't hate me cause I'm beutifull...No disrespect intended.....

[krishna]

Also,Loars went for 16k and I could'nt #even afford #the 6k (with tax and #Canadian exchange rate and the crazy "get it over the border" tax; re; paying off someone at a certain national delivery company) Maybe someone can do the math and see if there is a price coralation(?) on these 2 mandos?

[ethanopia]

these price discussions tend to be so general, all the numbers that have been thrown around are purely asking prices that po folks like us see in the ads.

The reality is that if the asking price is 25 grand who knows if it sold for that much. #We never know the actual price paid, unless someone wants to come forward and disclose the details of thier purchases, but who wants to do that, not me.

If I paid $3000 for a gilchrest 10 years ago and needed some cash out of it. One offer at 12,000 is a whole better than none at 25,000. you know what I mean...

[onlyagibsonisgoodenuff]

Monteleone once said that building good mandolins was every bit as difficult as making a good violin. He claimed violin makers have no problem getting what their work is worth, so he reasoned that if his product was as good as it gets in the mandolin world, he ought to charge what he felt it was worth. I, for one have no problem with someone asking what they feel something is worth, but if no one is buying, you'd soon realize you're asking too much. Apparently, John does not have that problem. Good for you, JM.

[neal]

Is it worth it? Yes, to some. Reasons be danged, who cares. I just hope they don't end up in glass cases somewhere. In 40 or 50 years I hope I see a beat-up old Moteleone grand artist or a whacked out Gilchrist in someones hands actually playing it. (the main reason is, if I see that, it means I'll be 97 years old:O )

Krishna, is envious ok?
Neal

[krishna]

Envious is better than what I've been thinking. Anyone wants to ,they can come on up to Prince George BC in a month or two(once I get moved )and play the thing to your hearts content.Also,I played this mando in a touring folk rock band for 5 years. Tons of folk fests and smoky bars. Lots of battle scars,(not that bad though)

[neal]

I'd love to see a pic of a well used GA, have any? We all love new, but well used/not "too" abused is better.

[Nick Triesch]

Why not just buy a tone bar yellowstone and then play it on the front swing this summer in your new house. I've played a few of those that really sound fantastic. Nick:D http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[jim simpson]

I liked the statement that makers of good violins get top dollar for their instruments so John M. figured he could get top dollar for his mandos - makes sense! Now the real question, who makes more money playing music, violin players or mandolin players?

[Jim M.]

I'd love to see a pic of a well used GA

Here's a pic of one in the hands of Spruce:

http://www.bruceharvie.com/images/mont.jpg

[neal]

HEY! Where's the rest of it? It's a beaut.

[labraid]

Howdy!
On behalf of the web deficient Kerry Krishna (sorry man http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif), here are some pictures of both he and his downpayment.

http://www.bfolk.com/kerrynmonty2.jpg
http://www.bfolk.com/monty.jpg
http://www.bfolk.com/montypeghead.jpg

[neal]

Oh, man......I thought I developed bleeding gums, it's just drool, whew..

[ethanopia]

shes a beaut Clark.

[chipotle]

Nice..Nice..Nice!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[SternART]

John Monteleone is not just a luthier, he is also a great designer as well as an artist. I think the best of any craft is fine art. His work in experimenting with and pushing the boundaries of the F5 mandolin is part of his legacy. Why just copy the Art Nouveou design of an old Gibson forever? I know they have proven potential to sound great, but was that the end of mandolin evolution?

Building all the archtop guitars has offered John the ability to learn from experience, lessons from a different kind of carved top f hole instrument. His archtop guitars are like jewelry in woodworking, sculptures for making music. It makes perfect sense to bring some concepts he has worked on back to the mandolins. I see where John has possibly taken some design inspiration from the famous archtop guitar masters, D'Aquisto & D'Angelico. His geometric headstocks for example, are possibly inspired by these masters. His use of the carved ebony tailpieces, like violin or archtop guitar tailpieces, is an interesting mandolin evolutionary experiment, as are the Grande Artist modernized f hole shapes, and the more radical Radio Flyer dolphin holes. Even in ergonomics, the arched fingerboard and the cantilevered sculpted pickguard, John has worked to evolve the mandolin design in the area of playability as well. His use or woods, his craftsmanship, every part of his instruments show the work of a mature artist in the prime of his career. Sure you can get a good deal on an up & coming luthier, but in my opinion a Monteleone is a work of art, a magnificent tool for creating music. Speaking as a designer/craftsman, I admire the evolution, the continual pushing of the boundaries. Mr. Monteleone's work is an inspiration to all who appreciate great design and craftsmanship, as well as to those who appreciate great instruments. Obviously great art is worth more to some than to others.

[mandocaster]

Arthur Stern should know art, in addition to being a mandolin guy, he is an artist whose medium is stained glass. His work is of truly transcendent beauty. #I had the pleasure of touring his studio many years ago (20?). #His work is on the cover of the Grisman Statman "Improvisations" recording.

[SternART]

Hey........ I see that "Mandocaster" is Mitch down in Houston. Howdy Mitch!!!

As I recall you visited my studio when it was in Oakland, and you are friends with Pat Fowler and Becky Smith.
That WAS 20 years ago...we're older & wiser now right?...and much better mandolin players....I just picked with Pat & Becky up in Idaho.......
Becky is amazing, what a mandolin player!
Check out my latest: http://www.arthurstern.com