Ranieri, and Sandpaper

[vkioulaphides]

I have one, lone Ranieri pick, of genuine tortoiseshell, which I found in a mandolin-case I got via eBay eons ago. I had lent it to Jim G. for a while, feeling patently unable to play a darn thing with it.

After a year or so, Jim returned it to me, for the same reasons. Yet today, as he and I were sharing a merry morning of mandolin duets, I picked it up and... I COULD play with it, and —with all due modesty— getting a rather lovely tone out of it! (well.. actual control being a whole other issue http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif )

This pick, however, is chipped and dented on the edges, and could potentially prove hazardous to my strings, not to mention the risk of nasty snags along the way.

So, ye wise ones: how do I file the edges of a TS Ranieri pick, so as to make them smooth? Fine sandpaper? A nail-file? Some additional chemical that needs to be applied? Need I bevel them? Round or sharp around the edges? So many questions, so little knowledge (on my part)...

I am keen to continue this pleasantly surprising experiment. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Jim Garber]

Victor:
Yes, a merrry morning indeed. Rather than invent the entire wheel, let's turn back the old Cafe clock back to spring of 2004 to this thread (http://www.mandolincafe.net/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?act=ST;f=6;t=13905;st=0) on Ranieri. On page two of that thread is Alex's step-by-step instructions on how to make a Ranieri pick from scratch... er... from tortoise material.

Jim

[Embergher]

Thanks Jim, it looks like the shaping of the Roman plectrum has already been explained here by Alex. I wonder who taught him all this http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif


There are of course many possibilities ...
The main advantage of a Roman (Ranieri/Embergher) plectrum is its length, which enables a very good balance for tremolo and other plectrum techniques. The shape of the edges and the points ... completely depend on the taste of the player. The sharper(rounder) the edges are, the clearer(rounder) the tone will be. Also the thickness of the plectrum can vary from quite thin to quite thick. The best you can do is experiment. I would suggest to make both the points and the edges quite sharp to start with ... then try, and make them rounder if needed.


Here are just a few examples of what a Roman plectrum can look like (Which resembles yours most, Victor?)

http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/PlettriRomani.jpg



The next picture shows my material for shaping/polishing plectrums:
- sandpaper: from N°240 to N°4000 (as Victor says: veeeeeery fine!)
- nail-files: some even finer than the finest sandpaper
- polish to finish with: (I use this "Dragon Polish", but other polishes are of course possible)

http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/PlectrumShapingMaterial.jpg


Here is a PDF document (http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/RalfLeenen-ModoDiTenereIlPlettroRomano.pdf) with some pictures that show the traditional way of holding a Roman plectrum. (as explained in the Ranieri method (http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/Ranieri%20method%20-%20how%20to%20hold%20the%20mandolin%20and%20the%20 plectrum.pdf) )

[Jim Garber]

Which resembles yours most, Victor?
Here is the pick in question.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-6-38590-ranieripicsm.jpg

As I rec all it is not as thick as the ones that Alex or Ralf show.

Also, Ralf, would you use the different sizes of pick for different purposes or are they just for experimentation and did you settle on one size that you use?

Jim

[Embergher]

Which resembles yours most, Victor?
Here is the pick in question.
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-6-38590-ranieripicsm.jpg

As I rec all it is not as thick as the ones that Alex or Ralf show.

Also, Ralf, would you use the different sizes of pick for different purposes or are they just for experimentation and did you settle on one size that you use?

Jim
The plectrums I showed in the first pictures above vary in thickness between 0,80mm and 2,00mm. They are all original/old tortoiseshell plectrums, varying in age from left to right from c.1920 to c.1970. (Tortoiseshell is the ideal material but - fortunately for the turtles - no longer used for the production of new plectrums.)

Different sizes are possible. The ones I use are the "large size", which is about 65mm "when new", but as you can see they become smaller when you use them. I like the new ones very much for their excellent balance, but they can perfectly be used untill they have become quite a bit smaller:
http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/PlettriRomani3.jpg
The thickness depends on many things:
- the hardness and flexibility of the material they're made of: the kind of tortoiseshell, the kind of celluloid, ...
- the size of the plectrum
- the shape of the point (varying from very sharp to quite rounded)
- the mandolin (or mandola, mandoloncello, ...) and the strings you use
- the kind of sound you prefer
- your plectrum technique
- ...


I also use different plectrums, depending on the instrument I'm playing. I prefer to play some mandolins with a thinner plectrum, others with a thicker one. The style of music can also influence the choise of plectrum.

It really is very personal. Even if you like the sound I make and you play the same mandolin with the same plectrum, it will sound different and you may prefer to use another plectrum.

(All this is of course applicable on the Neapolitan plectrum (with 1 point) as well. They can be shaped/used in exactly the same way, only their balance will feel/sound different.)

For as far as I can see, Victor's plectrum has had quite a bit of use and seems to be about the same size as the two in the middle of the above picture. I expect also the thickness to be about the same (c. 0,80 mm) which is #fine for that size and kind of tortoiseshell.
Unfortunately, it's been eaten by carpet/cabinet beetles (beware, they just love the nice thin edges of tortoiseshell plectrums!). To get a playble plectrum again, the edges should be made smooth and shaped again. I think the plectrum is wide enough to have a decent size left. Looks like a nice restoration project #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Of course, Victor, you are also welcome to send it to me by post. I will then return it to you in new/shiny/playble condition ;-)

[vkioulaphides]

BEETLES!?! Who knew? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Well, if it is any consolation, I keep my picks in a sliding-lid, beetle-proof case. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Ralf, I thank you for your kind offer; I may take you up on it, as my "first journey" down this path. If I knew what I was doing, I would gladly try this myself but, being glaringly ignorant, I don't know where to begin.

Expect mail from New York... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Linda Binder]

Ralf, you have a gorgeous collection of plectrums! # They not only help you produce your great tone but they're also really beautiful to look at! #I just re-read the previous threads on the topic and found answers to questions I was thinking about regarding the purpose of all that extra length. #Alex's description* of the effect of the counterweight on tone and volume and especially on how it naturally falls back into place sound intriguing. #I'll have to try a Ranieri plectrum sometime.
--Linda
<<*An Embergher/Ranieri plectrum is held between the thumb and forefinger in such a way that both points can move freely. In that manner the string-stroking point allows the opposite point to move freely towards the direction it is falling (by the weight that is needed by the string-stroking point of the plectrum to slip from the string(pair) on which it is placed) when making a down-stroke. Or by the weight that is wanted by the player to obtain more forte = loudness of volume.
When the plectrum falls down the string the oposite point will immediately bring the plectrum in exact the right position for the up-stroke to be made.>>

[Arto]

I agree with Linda about the aesthetic pleasure the Ranieri plectrums give. They could be a piece a jewelry!

I´d like to try one myself. As many greater players than me have commented that they could not get the thing working for them, I´m pretty sure the result would be the same for me, but I´d like to try. The basic "ideology" and mechanical logic makes sense, beautifully. The problem is that I don´t really know where to get the raw material for making a pick myself. Trying to find celluloid somewhere only to make a few picks seems a trouble... I once tried to make a "Ranieri" pick by shaping down the biggest plastic pick I could find (a Fender heavy triangle) but the resulting pick is still rather short (about 4cm) and I think it does not help enough getting the idea working. I know these cannot be found for sale anywhere, but would some of you be willing to sell a pre-sawn blank like the ones on Alex´post, to get me started? (OK, I know I´m just plain lazy...)

BTW: If I have understood right, it was Mr Ranieri who brought this type of pick to its modern form, but there were similar Roman plectrums around before (Embergher plectrums? De Santis plectrums? Sorry I don´t remember). Were these earlier picks already of the similar, two-pointed, uniformly convex type? Did master Ranieri just increase the length?

thanks, Arto

[Martin Jonas]

One of the nice things about buying old mandolins is that quite frequently they come with old bits and pieces in their cases. Useless when they're old strings (mostly "Cathedral" brand for British mandolins), but very handy when it comes to tortoiseshell plectra. All of the ones in this photo came as unexpected bonus with old bowlbacks, all of them at least 30 years old. Some may be celluloid, but most are real tortoiseshell. Thickness varies between 0.4mm and 1.5mm.

Despite this selection, I still prefer the tone I get from nylon picks, but maybe I need to persevere.

Martin

[Martin Jonas]

This is the lone Ranieri pick. Thinner than most, I think, at around 0.8mm, and more elongated than the ones shown by Ralf.

Martin

[Embergher]

BEETLES!?! Who knew? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif #Well, if it is any consolation, I keep my picks in a sliding-lid, beetle-proof case. #
Ralf, I thank you for your kind offer; I may take you up on it, as my "first journey" down this path. If I knew what I was doing, I would gladly try this myself but, being glaringly ignorant, I don't know where to begin.



Yes, beetles eat all kinds of organic material ... maybe they are the natural enemy of our plectrums http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
Oh ... don't forget to put the mandolin in a beetle-proof case as well: tortoiseshell scratchplates are also delicious!

I think a newly (re)shaped Roman plectrum would be a good start for a "first journey", but beware, you may get to like these oversized plectrums so much that you won't use anything else anymore ... at least, this is how I infected quite a few people, including Alex and Het Consort. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim Garber]

You are a dangerous man, Ralf. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I should know...

Jim

[Embergher]

Ralf, you have a gorgeous collection of plectrums! # They not only help you produce your great tone but they're also really beautiful to look at! #I just re-read the previous threads on the topic and found answers to questions I was thinking about regarding the purpose of all that extra length. #Alex's description* of the effect of the counterweight on tone and volume and especially on how it naturally falls back into place sound intriguing. #I'll have to try a Ranieri plectrum sometime.
--Linda
<<*An Embergher/Ranieri plectrum is held between the thumb and forefinger in such a way that both points can move freely. In that manner the string-stroking point allows the opposite point to move freely towards the direction it is falling (by the weight that is needed by the string-stroking point of the plectrum to slip from the string(pair) on which it is placed) when making a down-stroke. Or by the weight that is wanted by the player to obtain more forte = loudness of volume.
When the plectrum falls down the string the oposite point will immediately bring the plectrum in exact the right position for the up-stroke to be made.>>
Thanks, Linda,
Alex's description indeed looks in a way like what I've taught him about plectrum technique, but this is what is also done with Neapolitan plectrums: they are to be held "lightly", in order to create a certain resilience between the index and thumb. When a downstroke (or upstroke) is made, "any" plectrum will then naturally fall back in its "starting position" (which is the right position for both up and downstroke). This is a technique that works for any plectrum.

The advantage of the "Roman" plectrum has not been explained yet: it is the excellent balance and stability when making a crescendo or playing loud. Normally, when playing louder, you would need to put extra pressure on the plectrum if you don't want to risk to "loose" it, or even to prevent it from "flying into the audience". Unfortunately, more pressure is not so good for the "quality" of the sound. The size of a Roman plectrum allows you to minimize that extra pressure by its "larger lever": when making a downstroke, the top half of the plectrum touches the side of the index (see picture), thus creating a "lever" and preventing the playing point of the plectrum from moving "too much" towards the thumb.

http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/RalfLeenen-ModoDiTenereIlPlettroRomano1.jpg

This way much less pressure is needed to "restrict" the movements of the plectrum. So the advantage of the Roman plectrum is not to allow the point to move "freely" - this can be done with any kind of plectrum - but to reduce the pressure of the index and thumb which is needed when playing louder. Less pressure = more relaxed wrist = unforced sonorous sound for tremolo and most other techniques.

This is Ranieri's technique, combined with the advantage of a Roman plectrum, but many other techniques are possible. Quite the opposite of this is the technique of Maria Scivittaro and her pupil André Saint-Clivier. They both hold their (tiny) plectrum very firmly, only using the flexibility of the wrist and none of the fingers .... those who have heard their recordings will know that the sound they produce is completely different ... yet they are superb virtuosos and I appreciate them a lot.

(I better "©" this text, before it gets copied/published by someone else # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif #)

[Embergher]

BTW: If I have understood right, it was Mr Ranieri who brought this type of pick to its modern form, but there were similar Roman plectrums around before (Embergher plectrums? De Santis plectrums? Sorry I don´t remember). Were these earlier picks already of the similar, two-pointed, uniformly convex type? Did master Ranieri just increase the length?

thanks, Arto
I prefer to call them "Roman" plectrums, because different sizes and shapes are found everywhere; also Ranieri used different sizes and shapes. The name Ranieri-plectrum is probably chosen because he was known to have always used these plectrums and also mentions them in his method.
The name Embergher-plectrum probably refers to the fact that these plectrums (but also the Neapolitan type) are in his catalogue. They're named as "Sistema Napoletano" and "Sistema Romano 'Embergher' ", and it is also mentioned that the Embergher firm is specialised in these types of plectrums. However, the plectrum that is showed in the catalogue is a smaller/narrower type.
It is not clear who is responsable for making the largest version ... it may have existed well before Ranieri used it. He's never mentioned it as being 'his invention', and he even shows the Neapolitan shape in his method as a possibility.
I think the main feature of this plectrum is that even the smallest ones are considerably longer (and thus historically closer to the quill).
The rest is a matter of taste and feeling of the player.

[vkioulaphides]

"This is Ranieri's technique, combined with the advantage of a Roman plectrum, but many other techniques are possible. Quite the opposite of this is the technique of Maria Scivittaro and her pupil André Saint-Clivier. They both hold their (tiny) plectrum very firmly, only using the flexibility of the wrist and none of the fingers .... those who have heard their recordings will know that the sound they produce is completely different ... yet they are superb virtuosos and I appreciate them a lot."

Ah, but one must also not forget the famous, Ignorant-but-Curious school of mandolin-playing, of which I am a devoted adherent! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

My mandolin-background is folk music, of (naturally) Mediterranean flavor. My first attempts to educate myself —or eduMAcate, as Popeye the Sailor would put it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif — led me at first to the tight-grip, close-fist, small-pick approach; that my success was modest to negligible is no reflection on the approach in general.

A motto that has stuck with me is from Calace's preface to his Method, to wit "la vera flessibilità dev'essere nel polso", "the true flexibility ought to be in the WRIST". Not to misquote out of context, however: Calace was arguing for a rigid pick, combined with a loose wrist. I know of no mention in Calace of the flexibility of the fingers in the pick-grip.

To my vague, and sadly ignorant understanding of the matter, the Ranieri pick and the technique that goes with it incorporates the "internal" flexibility of the pick-grip in the overall technical approach.

As soon as my vintage, beetle-eaten pick is restored (if possible, that is), I will continue my experimentation, aiming to "graduate" to the equally famous, Somewhat-Less-Ignorant school of mandolin-playing. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Embergher]

A motto that has stuck with me is from Calace's preface to his Method, to wit "la vera flessibilità dev'essere nel polso", "the true flexibility ought to be in the WRIST". Not to misquote out of context, however: Calace was arguing for a rigid pick, combined with a loose wrist. I know of no mention in Calace of the flexibility of the fingers in the pick-grip.

To my vague, and sadly ignorant understanding of the matter, the Ranieri pick and the technique that goes with it incorporates the "internal" flexibility of the pick-grip in the overall technical approach.

That is right, this is one of the important differences between the Calace school and the Ranieri school, but many players apply the Ranieri (Roman) technique (flexible grip)using a Neapolitan plectrum, which is perfectly possible.(I don't change my technique at all when using any kind of plectrum) #
Applying the Calace (Neapolitan) technique when using a Roman plectrum is something else: the size of the plectrum doesn't allow playing with a tight grip.




As soon as my vintage, beetle-eaten pick is restored (if possible, that is), I will continue my experimentation, aiming to "graduate" to the equally famous, Somewhat-Less-Ignorant school of mandolin-playing. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

If it can be a consolation ... we all are adherents of the "More-Ignorant-Than-We-Think" school, but that's not so bad, it keeps us discovering new things every day #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Who would want "the perfect technique" and not having to learn anything anymore ...

[vkioulaphides]

"...many players apply the Ranieri (Roman) technique (flexible grip)using a Neapolitan plectrum, which is perfectly possible."

Indeed, Ralf, you have accidentally (or telepathically #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif ) traced the chronological development of my playing, which goes somewhat like this:

1. The Hunter/Gatherer Era: play as possible, catch-as-catch-can, as long as the pick hits the strings, somehow, ANYhow. Crude, noisy, imprecise effect...

2. The Caveman Era: look at some method books, try to hold the pick "correctly", as per Pettine, Branzoli, et al. Precious little dexterity... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

3. The (slightly) improved homo plectans era, with flexibility of the grip leading to some, modest gains in primitive dexterity.

As you write, said flexibility/dexterity, however modest, has been done with Pettine-style, pointy, Neapolitan picks; considering my age, lack of practice time, and natural recalcitrance, I will probably remain entrenched in my current, low skill-level.

Of course, there IS that Ranieri pick that Fate mysteriously planted in that vintage mandolin-case I got from England, years ago... #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[aries753]

This is a very interesting thread. Is there a commercially made version of the Ranieri style pick?

[Embergher]

This is a very interesting thread. Is there a commercially made version of the Ranieri style pick?
When I was 8 years old there was this music shop in Antwerp (Belgium) who used to have a box with at least 500 of these (tortoiseshell) plectrums. Everyone used them here, so they sold quite well. Those were the only commercially made Roman plectrums I've ever seen in a shop. Unfortunately, the shop doesn't exist anymore since a few years.

[vkioulaphides]

On an even more rudimentary level: where does one find "sheet celluloid"? (for lack of a better term) One can presumably get "ivorite" (i.e. celluloid mimicking ivory) piano keytops, then do the cutting, filing, etc. Ditto on "ebonite", pretty much the same thing in black... The white stuff, at least, is as easy to find as the nearest piano-parts retailer.

Being a known and certified lunatic in such matters, I would be willing to place an "industrial" order for, say, 100 "blanks", then distribute them (at cost, of course) amongst the willing experimenters; there are surely several, ehm... Usual Suspects on this board. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif One could even get a low-grade machinist to cut them to a crude approximation of, say, 7 cm. long, 2 cm. wide, at a reasonable, mid-range thickness; said usual suspects could do the rest of the filing.

Ah, a "dangerous man" you are, Ralf, as Brother James has already remarked! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[brunello97]

Victor:

You might try these guys:

http://www.texasknife.com/

(I'm not kidding.....)

I've bought some celluloid from them for replacement pickguards. They have thicker material as well, maybe something to suit your needs. Give them a call, they are rather friendly, as good Texans should be.

Tell them Jim Bowie sent you....:)

Mick

[Embergher]

I don't know if the different colours - white, black, tortoise, ... - all have the same caracteristics (hardness/flexibility). I think there are quite a few kinds of celluloid. The problem is many of the suppliers don't even mention caracteristics ... the material is mostly used for pickguards, so the flexibility/hardness is not really important.
It would be nice if some useful material (between 0,90 and 1,50mm thick) could be found, and even better if it could be cut in the right shape. The perfect shape can easily be obtained by drawing 4 circels as shown here (http://users.skynet.be/embergher/JPG/PLECTRUMDESIGN.jpg). (if necessary I can provide a real model).
The finishing of the edges(and certainly the points) is rather personal and would best be done by each individual player.

However, before ordering 100 blanks or so, it's probably best to try a few first to be sure that the material is suitable. (I've never tried a "tortex" pick ... maybe there are modern materials that are even better than celluloid ... I doubt it though)

Terrapin Guitars (http://www.terrapinguitars.com/policies.htm) make custom pickguards. They say: " ... We can make just about any pick guard shape you desire ..."
So if they have the right material, they would probably be able to make very small 'pickguards', in the shape of Roman picks? #... (the price could be a problem though) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[vkioulaphides]

"I don't know if the different colours - white, black, tortoise, ... - all have the same caracteristics (hardness/flexibility)"

True. I think that there is probably zero correlation between color and rigidity. Polymers being manufactured in countless gradations of ANY parameter, you can probably find equally countless variants.

Yes, one ought to be patient in such matters...

Private anecdote: I once thought of buying a paper tube wide enough to house one of my long-necked, folk lutes; I didn't feel like spending, say, $200 on a custom case. So, I contacted the XYZ Paper Mills of South Carolina (I think...), and asked for those super-rigid, thick carton tubes that art-dealers use to roll paintings in. You know what I mean, of course; they come in various diameters, lengths, etc.

The papermill-lady, in Southern, dulcet tones, asked me, "And how many THOUSANDS of them would you like, Sir?" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Jim Garber]

I bought a small 4"x6" sheet of tortoise plastic from International Luthiers (http://www.internationalluthiers.com/guitarparts.php). It is a little on the thin side tho. In wonmder if there is a way to weld it together for a thicker piece?

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Perhaps, Jim, but there ought to be ready-made celluloid in just about ANY thickness. Besides, pickguard-makers are working with unrelated priorities (to ours, i.e. of the PICK-makers), namely making something with a bold enough visual impact, yet thin enough not to require too deep an inlay-job.

But, as usual, I am rambling madly... piano keytops are probably too thick and lacking any of the needed flexibility http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Why would piano keytop-makers concern themselves with how well their products flex?

More questions than answers...

[Embergher]

I bought a small 4"x6" sheet of tortoise plastic from International Luthiers (http://www.internationalluthiers.com/guitarparts.php). It is a little on the thin side tho. In wonmder if there is a way to weld it together for a thicker piece?

Jim
How thick is it Jim?
They mention 0.035" for tortoise (0,89 mm), which can be fine for real tortoiseshell, but I can imagine that this material would be too felxible and needs to be thicker.
To be honest, for me it wouldn't have to look like tortoiseshell at all ... black would be just fine.

[Jim Garber]

More from Luthier's Mercantile (http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Pickguard+Material&NameProdHeader=Pickguard+Sheets).

Same thickness made the the Tortis material (http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Pickguard+Material&NameProdHeader=Tor%2DTis%99+Pickguards).

Red Bear Trading (http://www.redbeartrading.com/) will make custom picks from Tortis. Last time I heard from him for a Neapolitan style it was about $30 each custom. I think his are thicker.

It looks like they have a distributor in Luxembourg (http://www.tortispicks.co.uk/).

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Me, neither. Just about ANY color would do, if the rigidity is right. Why, I can just visualize bright, orange Ranieri picks! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[QUOTE]"To be honest, for me it wouldn't have to look like tortoiseshell at all ... black would be just fine."[QUOTE]

Indeed...

[Embergher]

Same thickness made the the Tortis material (http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/thirdproducts.asp?CategoryName=Pickguard+Material&NameProdHeader=Tor%2DTis%99+Pickguards).

Red Bear Trading (http://www.redbeartrading.com/) will make custom picks from Tortis. Last time I heard from him for a Neapolitan style it was about $30 each custom. I think his are thicker.

It looks like they have a distributor in Luxembourg (http://www.tortispicks.co.uk/).
I've seen these websites with the Tortis picks a while ago.
I must say it looks like really nice material, but very expensive ...
I don't know if it's the material that makes them expensive, or the handwork to make them. If it's the material, a Roman pick would cost about double of this price # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif

(If they'd been less expensive I would have ordered a standard one to try, but I don't really feel like spending $30 for a pick that won't be the right shape for me anyway.)

[Jim Garber]

John Greven (http://www.grevenguitars.com/tortis.htm) is the developer of the material.

You can get sheets of the material (http://www.grevenguitars.com/tortis2.htm) .035 thick for $30 and .125 thick for $45.

Jim

[Embergher]

John Greven (http://www.grevenguitars.com/tortis.htm) is the developer of the material.
You can get sheets of the material (http://www.grevenguitars.com/tortis2.htm) .035 thick for $30 and .125 thick for $45.

Thanks Jim, that looks more sensible! ... I've just ordered a sheet ... for imitation it looks wonderful, hopefully the caracteristics (rigidity/flexibility) will also resemble those of real tortoiseshell ... we'll see!

[Jim Garber]

Ralf:
Supposedly it is pretty close. Carlo Aonzo had some picks made to the shape he likes and he uses them.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Ralf, please do tell us, when you receive shipment —or, more crucially— when you have made an actual pick out of this material, what your impressions are. We are waiting with bated breath...

(or is that spelled baited in this context? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

[vkioulaphides]

... or am I TOTALLY on the wrong track? I just looked at the website. I'm not clear on whether the sheet you ordered, Ralf, was intended as a pick-guard or as stock-in-trade material for making picks out of.

Victor (Idiot-in-Residence) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Embergher]

... or am I TOTALLY on the wrong track? I just looked at the website. I'm not clear on whether the sheet you ordered, Ralf, was intended as a pick-guard or as stock-in-trade material for making picks out of.

Victor (Idiot-in-Residence) #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
No, you're not on the wrong track, and it's not an idiotic question: it is "exactly" what is not really clear:
The sheet they sell is meant for pickguards, and may not be the same material as what is used for picks. I'll keep you informed when I get more information ...

[Plamen Ivanov]

Sometimes I`m "sharpenning" my pick on a broken piece of glas. Am I the only one?

[Jim Garber]

Sometimes I`m "sharpenning" my pick on a broken piece of glas. Am I the only one?
Yes, Plamen, you are a brave man, living dangerously. All that for art's sake. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

OUCH! Plamen, my friend, try nail-files, sandpaper, ANYthing else! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Plamen Ivanov]

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif Thanks for your concern, friends! It`s in fact not so dangerous or at least by comparison with other things that I`m doing! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

Good luck!

[Alex Timmerman]

Plamen, that reminds me of a photo with you riding a really heavy motorbike!

Here a drawing for you by my son. He likes them also.

Take care http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Alex

[aries753]

Alex, thats a cool looking bike. Where do you hang the mandolin? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Embergher]

Today I received Victor's "Concerto da Camera" which he wrote for my ensemble La Napolitaine. (Many, many thanks, Victor, it looks absolutely wonderful, but more about that later in the appropriate thread ...).

In the envelope I also found Victor's (beetle-eaten) Roman plectrum, which I promised to make playable again. A bit of sandpaper, nail-files and some polish can do wonders for a tortoiseshell plectrum ...

Before restoration:
http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/before.jpg

And after ... :
http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/PlectrumVictor20060710kl.jpg

So, Victor, as soon as your plectrum has recovered from its facelift (and jet lag) I will book its flight back to New York! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Jim Garber]

Beautiful work, Ralf. I will be sending you a kilo of moth-eaten tortoise shell plectra -- kidding, of course... don't worry.

Besides, you need to the time to work on Victor's piece.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Ah, the wonders of plastic surgery! (Or was it Botox shots, to remove the wrinkles?) I am greatly —and personally— encouraged about my future. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[vkioulaphides]

Quite seriously, Ralf, I must thank you for your expert restoration of this pick. No hurry in returning it, of course, as we leave for vacation in about 48 hrs., returning on August 3. I will be happy to have it back when we are back. It looks absolutely beautiful, after your tender, loving care! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

As for procedures for my own, personal preservation, taxidermy comes to mind... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Alex Timmerman]

Hi all,

Nice mandolin with Roman Plectrum on Ebay.
<a href="http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/MANDOLINE-antik-mit-Intarsien-selten-fuer-Liebhaber_W0QQitemZ270007859462QQihZ017QQcategor
yZ10179QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">Click here to view.</a>


best,

Alex

[Embergher]

Maybe this auction would have more success if described as "Very nice Roman plectrum + free mandolin" for only 159 EUR ! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jonathan Rudie]

[QUOTE](Embergher,July 06 2006, 10:16)
I've just ordered a sheet ... for imitation it looks wonderful, hopefully the caracteristics (rigidity/flexibility) will also resemble those of real tortoiseshell ... we'll see!

Hi Ralf,

Did you get the Tor-tis sheet? #And if so what are your impressions for its suitabilty for picks? #Thanks for your time.

[vkioulaphides]

An update report:

My old, beetle-eaten Roman plectrum has just been returned to me by ever generous Ralf, in a condition unthinkable, considering its previous state: even, polished, pristine; gone are the "teeth", on which strings were previously getting snagged, the roughness of surface(s), the grime.

I will keep you updated on my progress as well, in due time; I fear, however, that my own efforts may, ah... fall short of the elegant, long plectrum. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

I am delighted to have it, though, and would like to hereby issue a big, public "thank you" to Ralf for all the loving care he has lavished on this relic of mine.

Cheers,

Victor

[Embergher]

[QUOTE= ](Embergher,July 06 2006, 10:16)
I've just ordered a sheet ... for imitation it looks wonderful, hopefully the characteristics (rigidity/flexibility) will also resemble those of real tortoiseshell ... we'll see!

Hi Ralf,

Did you get the Tor-tis sheet? #And if so what are your impressions for its suitabilty for picks? #Thanks for your time.
Sorry, I forgot to post this information:
The dealer let me know that the tortis material that is used for picks is not the same as what he's selling to make pickguards from. Even if it looks the same, the other characteristics would not be the same.

However, I did order a piece (which I could use for a pickguard restoration anyway), but didn't receive it yet.
I think it's a communication problem ... the dealer said he would send me a piece and that I could then send him the cash ... so I was waiting, but probably (and logically) I have to send the cash first, which I will do as soon as I have time. I'll let you know when I receive the material!

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, I suspect that the Tortis sheet for pickguards may be thinner, so that luthiers would not need to carve TOO deep into the soundboard in order to inlay it. Or there may be other parameters that are different, too...

On another sub-topic:

Yesterday evening I spent some time playing some violin repertoire (on the mandolin, of course), using my newly restored Roman plectrum. My immediate reaction: EUREKA! The "transfer" of my bowing-related reflexes to the Roman plectrum was intuitive and immediate. A wonderful and eye-opening experience, to be sure. Curiously enough, my "mandolinistic" habits still get stuck in first gear when I use a Roman plectrum: my long-ingrained (and unfashionably disreputable) sempre tremolando falls to pieces, my routine glide-strokes and cross-pickings, all out the window... but only for the time being. I am determined to "fuse", as it were, my bowing and picking habits into one, uniform technique, with the graceful, Roman plectrum. Maybe it's just "growing pains"...

In the worst scenario, even if I fail pitifully, I can always go back to playing with my Neapolitan picks just as badly as I did before. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Cheers,

Victor

[vkioulaphides]

This comment may well tie in with The Subtle Art, Etc. thread. Dunno...

The fact is that, as I spend more time with my Roman plectrum, I find myself holding the instrument higher than I did when playing with my usual, Neapolitan picks. I do not, however, mean "higher" as in "against my chest", but more, ehm... slanted.

To clarify: when picking alla napoletana, I held the instrument in the nearly horizontal position that has been discussed elsewhere. (I forget where...) Now, picking alla romana, the instrument's pegbox is roughly at the height of my left shoulder.

Is this mere coincidence, or are there some mechanical interrelations at play? I am too ignorant, and void of any subtlety, to know...

[etbarbaric]

Hi Victor (and everyone),

I haven't been playing much of late, and I haven't followed this particular thread, but I wholeheartedly concur that the long plectrum lights up my violinist's bowing neurons. #My own experience is with long wooden (and quill) plectra on earlier gut-strung instruments, but the overall issues are the same. #I immediately thought to myself "this is the way I will play the mandolin from here on out".

The other similarity that struck me immediately was the way that the plectra of a harpsichord strikes the string. #For me, the long plectrum just feels right.

Now... if only I had time to practice...

Eric

[Embergher]

... when picking alla napoletana, I held the instrument in the nearly horizontal position that has been discussed elsewhere. (I forget where...) Now, picking alla romana, the instrument's pegbox is roughly at the height of my left shoulder.
Is this mere coincidence, or are there some mechanical interrelations at play? I am too ignorant, and void of any subtlety, to know...

I don't know if this way of holding the mandolin (as shown here (http://www.mandolin.be/mp3/method/)) is "mechanically" directly related to the Roman plectrum. I've always played this way and even with a Neapolitan pick I'd use exactly the same technique and hold the mandolin in exactly the same position.
Holding the mandolin in a more horizontal position feels awkward to me and rather uncomfortable. It would do for some "nonchalant" playing, but not to make a decent tone. #
(However, the almost vertical position of the mandolin we often see nowadays feels even more awkward to me: that way the plectrum can't be parallel with the strings which makes funny side noises.)

I think your experience, Victor, may have something to do with being used to play with a bow and now relating this feeling to your mandolin playing.
Playing with a bow not only requires a free wrist, but also flexibility of the fingers and the ability to move the bow easily in any direction. The Roman plectrum technique requires exactly the same and holding the mandolin as said seems to be the ideal and natural position for it.

[vkioulaphides]

Oh, I agree wholeheartedly. Yes, of course, the "almost vertical" posture I have seen on occasion seems virtually impossible! At least the "almost horizontal" one is workable.

Still, I am feeling —in a vague, still undefined way— that the Roman plectrum is more at home with a certain "total" approach to the instrument. But I don't know whether there is any hard fact behind my observation, or whether I'm just imagining things... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

For example, alla napoletana, my forearm lies just about above the tailpiece, the arm "in line", as it were, as if projected, with the strings; alla romana, au contraire, the arm falls naturally a bit higher on the instrument, "north" of the tailpiece, more above the sleeve-guard. But all these may just be a madman's ramblings... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[John Bertotti]

Victor being well skilled I wonder how much of your mandolin position is you, subconsciously, compensating for the differences in your approach. What I mean is since using this pick what else may have changed? Sitting position, standing position, the way you are holding your feet, or even just the way your focus has changed. Ie. watching the pick hand more of trying to divide your attention more between the two hands. Just thinking out loud. I for one notice the position of the mandolin change when the chords or stretches needed become longer but also when I use the long plectrum. Maybe the length and the actual motion of the pick dictates this a bit because of the motion both needs like to follow. I notice with the short pick I can be less parallel to the strings with my short pick then I can with the long. Just thinking out loud. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[vkioulaphides]

Yes, perhaps... I may be, as you say, that I am more attentive to such things while playing my newly refurbished, Roman plectrum, than I was with the Neapolitan one(s) I have been used to since childhood. Who knows?

In order to "ingrain" the mechanics of the long plectrum, I am going through all of Lo Scioglidita, little by little. It has been part of my routine for a while, but now I am "re-learning". Most helpful, I must say. I play each scale/arpeggio exercise three times over: once slowly, all downstrokes; once up-down, same tempo, trying to even out the strokes; finally, once more, considerably faster.

I am still tremolo-challenged with the Roman pick, ironically, perhaps, since those adept in its use claim it is so ideally suited to tremolo. To make matters worse, in the process of ingraining, "romanizing" my reflexes, I am terribly confused and discoordinated trying to tremolo as I did before, with my Neapolitan pick(s).

My consolation is that this is, more or less, the same experience I have with speaking —or at least trying to— half a dozen languages. The Perfect Word in one language ALWAYS occurs to me— but, alas, when I am speaking anOTHER one. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

OK. Back to playing the mandolin. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif