Back to the tailpiece

[John Bertotti]

If a individual came up with a viable ADJUSTABLE tail piece what range of adjustment would you want? John

[John Zimm]

Pardon my ignorance, and maybe this has been covered, but what do you mean by adjustable? Thanks.

-John.

[John Bertotti]

I was thinking of the angle in relation to the top. I realize they can be tweaked a bit but a good cast on can't. I was kicking around the idea of a two piece tail piece that would allow for adjustment at the joint or currently the area where it bend from the side to the top.
I bring this up because I remember a thread about 18 months ago that was discussing this. Someone was saying they would like an adjustable one. John

[sunburst]

John Monteleone's new tailpieces are adjustable. They slide up or down in a dovetail slot in a piece attached to the mandolin. I don't know what the range of adjustment is. I've seen something similar on archtop guitars.

When I started thinking about making my own tailpiece I was thinking about adjustability with a hinge like you're talking about. I opted for KISS. (If you don't know, that's "Keep It Simple, Stupid").

Some of the things I thought about were:
The range of adjustment might as well be from touching the top to up in the air. If it will go to extreems, it's certainly adjustable enough.

Make sure the hinge is resistant enough to wear that it will last a long time.

Make sure the mechanism cannot cause rattles or buzzes.

There are several adjustable banjo tailpieces, that's a good place to get ideas about what might or might not work well.

[Keith Newell]

I would like to put in my 2 cents.
Adjustable tailpieces on a mandolin can ONLY be adjustable as far as height, not angle like a banjo tailpiece. If you drew a line between the bridge top and the point of intersection between the part of the tailpiece thats vertical and the part of the tailpiece thats somewhat horizontal and then figured into the equation the actual point of contact with the loop ends on the strings you can have something that may give you big problems if its not correct.
Let me explain. I once worked on a instrument that the bottom screw of the tailpiece kept stripping out and pulling free. They brought it to me to see if I could plug/redrill the hole. I did it but realized that the loop end of the strings contact was above the imaginary line drawn in the above paragraph. This caused downward tension on the horizontal part of the tailpiece and caused it to want to raise up at the far end I.E. the bottom screw of the tailpiece. Considering this was a cast unit and had no give to it there was constant pressure on that last screw.
If you take a tailpiece no matter what brand and hold it in your right hand with your fingers on the inside contact area like your hand was a mandolin side and then pull on the area that the strings make contact with you can see that if you vary the up down motion you can get extremes in action against the mandolin side.
Banjo adjustable tailpieces are meant to vary the downward tension on the bridge. Personaly when I make an instrument and sell it I wouldnt want someone increasing the downward force on the top (even by accident). What if it failed? Then it comes back to me and I have to fix it, but worse maybe that failure caused several people to not want to buy one of my instruments thinking I dont know what Im doing on construction (Im not saying I do http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif).
Anyway sorry for rambling but I do feel strongly about this. There are many fine tailpieces out there and you dont really need to make it adjustable IMHO.
Keith Newell
http://www.newellmandolins.com

[John Bertotti]

Thanks all great points of view, I will just focus on a standard angle that is nonadjustable yet different. John

[WoodyMcKenzie]

What about having a tailpiece that has a hinged joint between the two major planes? That way, the strings could always pull the hinged piece straight, just like a violin tailpiece works. Does this make sense?

Woody

[jim simpson]

John,
This may be redundant but I will express my idea of an adjustable tailpiece. I ordered and installed the latest 2-piece cast Price tailpiece. I like the fact that it looks like the traditional Gibson 2-piece style but without the rattling problem or the string tangs breaking off. The issue I had with it was that it required great force to put the cover on since the cover presses against the strings. Not only does one have to press down but then slide the cover while pressing down. I guess I'm a wuss because I found this too difficult. I solved it by running the strings under the leading edge bar. I believe another poster had bent the leading edge cover to lighten the string pressure. I suppose an adjustable hinge could reduce the string pressure against the cover. I would like to see a hinged cover plate that would prevent the cover from getting lost and could be flipped back to access for string changes. I want to restate that I really like the latest Price tailpiece and have liked and used his previous incarnations as well.

[Scotti Adams]

..Ive got the latest price Tp...yes..it was a pain gettin it on in its stock position...I bent the leading edge of the cover just slightly to make it easier to slide on. It is important to understand that is the "spring" that keeps the cover on...bending it too much would defeat its purpose. Also another point...the angle of the strings from the Tp to the bridge depends on how high your bridge is..my neck set and other factors make for my bridge being adjusted fairly high...7/8" from the top to the top of the saddle..I dont know if Mr. Price takes this into consideration...his pattern/mold/plan is probably based on a more common bridge height...but..when all is said and done it is a great Tp..

[John Bertotti]

There was a previous post were someone posted a picture of a hinged cover on a tailpiece. No idea whose it was. John

[Chris Baird]

Likely the best way to create an adjustable tailpiece is to make a floating tailpiece akin to the violins'. To try to change the angle of the tailpiece by moving a locking hinge is likely bound to fail at some point(unless the hinge were locked in an unstressed position). The adjustment of a violins tailpiece is done by making a taller tailpiece nut(if that is what you call it). Because the tailpiece gut(wire) is flexible along its entire length you would not be increasing leverage on the endpin by raising the nut position. In fact you would be lowering the overall tension because you would be lessning the breakover angle without increasing leverage. It is known that the floating tailpiece is a dampning system and is important in violins but, would the dampening be detrimental to an instrument that produces purley transient tones? Perhaps someone out there has tried this?

[cameron]

For the guys who have the "latest cast Price 2-piece" tailpiece; I got one for my Nugget("Nugget" engraved on the top of TP);but I put it on my Kimble mandolin first to see how it looked...... The leading edge is touching the top;and once I removed the top part of the TP I could not press down hard enough on the strings to replace it. So, I can't put the strings under the leading edge(on this mandolin) because the leading edge is already touching the top. I'm not sure I should install it on the Nugget. Should I try to change the angle of the TP? or send it back to Price? In all fairness I have not discussed this with Price.

[cameron]

Didn't D'Aquisto make some archtop guitars with adjustable tailpieces?

[sunburst]

There was a previous post were someone posted a picture of a hinged cover on a tailpiece. No idea whose it was. John
I don't know either, but last summer I saw a Gilchrist with a hinged cover and a little latch to hold it down.

[Michael Lewis]

The concept of a tail piece that has adjustable angle SEEMS like a great idea, but in all practicality the old tried and true geometry of the stamped sheet metal tail piece like Gibson uses is hard to beat. #I don't like the idea of stamped sheet metal, or of bulky wood for a tail piece. #Some folks just switch and swap tail pieces like they were changing sox. #All it takes is for one person to say that a certain TP changed the tone or volume of their instrument and other folks just rush out and buy one to make their mandolin "better". #I think it is seldom the case that a TP significantly enhances the sound of an instrument, it's not impossible but not likely either. #Adjustable tail pieces work on banjos, well, they do alter the tone, but in my opinion the more the TP is cranked down the more you choke the tone. #At least on a banjo. #Now on a mandolin you have a much stiffer sound membrane (wood) and the main change you will cause is greater or lesser string break angle at the bridge. #Since most great sounding mandolins use the standard angles WHY CHANGE IT?

I can see using other designs for tailpieces to make them easier to use, or sturdier, or better looking, but I have yet to see the value of changing the break angle of the strings. #More break angle means more down pressure stressing the top. #Over the years this will take it's toll. #Less break angle means less stress into the top but also less force driving the top. #You gotta admit that the overall design of the F hole mandolin is pretty successful the way it is. #So far it is darn hard to improve on. #I'm not saying it can't be improved on, but I'm still waiting to see any major improvements. #Little by little the over all design and function is being honed and refined every day by all us luthiers, (yes, production shops have luthiers) but that's just developing the original design, not inventing anything new. #When the design is made corectly the sound, feel , and appearance is awesome. #It's just my humble opinion, but I don't think an adjustable tail piece will be much benefit. #Please prove me wrong.

[sunburst]

Great post Michael!
I can understand the desire to tinker, it's a grand tradition with banjo players, but the disign of the instrument itself is where the real potential changes are likely to lurk.