One or two fingers for two courses?

[mmdm]

I've been playing mandolin for about 10 months, but have been mostly playing melody, except for some 2 finger chords. I'm now trying to learn more chords and am working on the A major. My fingers aren't big enough to hold down the 2 courses with 1 fingertip like my book shows. I can only hold them down like that if I put my finger flat and use the whole first joint, which then mutes the E string, which shouldn't be. Another book suggested using your first and second finger, instead of just you first finger, but I can't seem to fit both of those there, getting them both up close to the fret, since they won't fit one directly beneath the other.

I know that it takes practice, but my question is which method should I practice? Using my finger flat across the 2 courses while trying not to mute the E (seems impossible, but there is no way my little fingertip can cover both) or trying to fit 2 fingers up there instead of 1?

[ShaneJ]

Definitely use 1 finger on those types of chords. My fingers aren't huge, but not small. I can cover the G & D strings on the A-chord you mention with the index finger tip only partially flat (if that makes sense). If you don't barre all the way down, you can play the A & E strings open for a cool double double-stop (A & E in octaves).

[Nihilist37]

I use this technique too. I have slightly larger fingers and cover the two courses almost completely with my fingertips. However I'm building a siminoff F4 and I'm worried that i won't be able to do this anymore.

I would say that practise at semi barring that fret would work. Trying to get a little more flex backwards on the index finger.

Alternatively you could get into the world of 3 note voicings. I'm an absolute begginer as well but it seems like this is an effective way of learning good harmonies and easy access to chords.

[lkb3rd]

I use one finger too, but i've learned a technique for certain guitar chords (which would probably work well if you have smaller hands on mando) where you get one string with the fingertip, and sort of flex your finger fully extended and lean on the other strings just enough to depress them. #It can be a little awkward at first but nothing that you can't overcome with some practice and determination.

[LateBloomer]

This is something I have also struggled with. Would the folks who can do this please post some photos of your left hand on those strings. (Maybe I have the wrong angle, or the wrong idea!!!)
Thanks,
LateBloomer

[groveland]

There are a half a dozen A major chord shapes I can think of off the top of my head, and many more than that can be found. Is there a particular reason you've selected this one? I suggest looking at the many alternatives. That would probably give you lots of ideas how chords work, too.

[mmdm]

There are a half a dozen A major chord shapes I can think of off the top of my head, and many more than that can be found. Is there a particular reason you've selected this one? I suggest looking at the many alternatives. That would probably give you lots of ideas how chords work, too.
Well, I have a handful of mandolin books, including a chord book, and although they have several variations, they all include holding down both the G and D strings on the second fret. I do need something in first position because, being a beginner, all the other chords I know as well as all the melodies I play are in that position. If there are others that don't require you to hold down 2 courses with 1 finger, I don't know what they are.

[jaydee]

A solid barring technique is worth developing, those first inversion chords are too important to not have under your fingers. Practice slowly holding the chord by barring with your fingertip, then releasing, then holding it again. Take your time, you don't want to injure yourself, and you'll be barring comfortably in no time.
Good luck
Jeremy

[jmcgann]

For two strings (courses) you might try the "imaginary string" idea- let's say you want an A chord in 5ths, 2200.(Yes, I know it's 'not a chord because a chord has to have three different notes'. This is a very good voicing and call it a power chord, A5, or your mammy if you want to. A great sound for Irish music.) This is a voicing you can't "barre" as you'll block out the two open strings on top.

You might aim for an "imaginary string" between strings 3 and 4 with your index finger. That way, most of your finger will catch most of the two strings you are aiming for- Even if you don't TOTALLY cover all 4, you are bound to get one of the two courses, and you won't hear the "muted" other string. It works best for the calloused fingertip (so, practice a lot!)

Cheating? Not if it works for you! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[Alex Fields]

You could always get surgery to have your hands enlarged. : )

Personally I'm lucky enough to have huge hands and very long fingers. I don't like wideneck mandolins for this reason though--it's difficult to bar--and it's especially annoying for me because of the constant, fast paced barring required for alot of the baroque music I play.

There are alot of ways to play the chords but to be the best possible player you should learn all the voicings because some will work better in certain circumstances. Personally I prefer the 2245 voicing of A major (played with first, third, and fourth fingers) because it puts the root note in the bass (and treble actually). Of course the power chord version (2200) is easier but the other is a true chord and can be moved up and down the fingerboard to form other chords. Another way to play A major that doesn't require a bar is to play a G major chord (7523) and just move it up two frets.

[JGWoods]

You may not get all 4 strings to ring out clearly when using the end of your finger. Most folks don't and that's ok. The 2 closest of the G, D pairs will probably sound out just fine while the outer ones may be damped. Lots of mandolin comping/chopping calls for a damped sound anyway so it's not a big deal.
This is one place where wider necks aren't beneficial. The string spacing gets to be such that you can't cover 2 pairs easily. The older- 1 inch wide at the nut- size made it easy but these days players seem to prefer wider spacing, wider necks, and stretching for Bluegrass chop chords.

[mmdm]

You might aim for an "imaginary string" between strings 3 and 4 with your index finger. That way, most of your finger will catch most of the two strings you are aiming for- Even if you don't TOTALLY cover all 4, you are bound to get one of the two courses, and you won't hear the "muted" other string. It works best for the calloused fingertip (so, practice a lot!)

Cheating? Not if it works for you! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif
I just tried this and I think it might work. One of the G strings wasn't really even under my finger at all, just at the edge of it, but it sounded ok when I strummed it.

BTW, maybe I should have mentioned that I am a woman, not a guy with freakishly small hands. I don't think the hand enlargement surgery suggested by Alex would really be an improvement. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Alex Fields]

Sometimes you have to choose between a love life and a music life. :P

[howbahmando]

Since you speak of (unintentionally) damping the E string, apparently the chord formation you're working on is 2240 (AEC#E)? #Why not just play 2245 (AEC#A) instead, that should eliminate the possibility of the barre finger damping the top string. #Plus it'll emphasize the root more.

[edited because numbers apparently confuse me, although I do actually know the difference between A and Am.]

[Strange1]

I use several A positions, but my fav is E(5th fret,mid fingr), A(4th fret, index fingr), D(7th fret,ring fingr), 9th fret, pinkie).

Jack

[AlanN]

A Major (low to high)

2200
6200
6240
2245
6779
6745
9700
9745
9779
911129
14141617

learn 'em all, use 'em wisely
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[jmcgann]

6240, 6745,

I'd steer clear of those two- it's good to see them in terms of available notes, but as voicings, two 3rds and two 5ths sounds 'lite', as does 2 3rds and 2 roots. Two roots and two 5ths is quite strong, though.

[Martin Jonas]

A Major (low to high)
...
6200
...
I like 6200: it goes nicely with my favourite choices of 5200 for Amin and 4520 for Emin. Easy to finger (for large hands, that is), easy to transition from the two-finger C, G, and D major chords, no double-stopping adjacent courses, no dampening.

Martin

[mmdm]

Since you speak of (unintentionally) damping the E string, apparently the chord formation you're working on is 2230 (AECE)? Why not just play 2235 (AECA) instead, that should eliminate the possibility of the barre finger damping the top string. Plus it'll emphasize the root more.

Lots of them I haven't heard of here, but I do want to stay close to first position for now. I will give 6200 a try this afternoon and see how that goes, since you say it is easy to move to from the 2 finger C D and G chords. Would you play the 6 with your pinkie or ring finger?

Thanks everyone for helping this newbie! Keep the advice coming if you have more. It is all very interesting to me.
I've been trying both of these and can't decide which to use. They sound completely different to me. Should they? My pinkie is still a litte weak so I thought it might be easiest to learn 2230 and then when I could change chords at a reasonable speed using that one, add the pinkie for 2235.

[howbahmando]

Since you speak of (unintentionally) damping the E string, apparently the chord formation you're working on is 2230 (AECE)? #Why not just play 2235 (AECA) instead, that should eliminate the possibility of the barre finger damping the top string. #Plus it'll emphasize the root more.

Lots of them I haven't heard of here, but I do want to stay close to first position for now. I will give 6200 a try this afternoon and see how that goes, since you say it is easy to move to from the 2 finger C D and G chords. Would you play the 6 with your pinkie or ring finger?

Thanks everyone for helping this newbie! Keep the advice coming if you have more. It is all very interesting to me.
I've been trying both of these and can't decide which to use. They sound completely different to me. Should they? My pinkie is still a litte weak so I thought it might be easiest to learn 2230 and then when I could change chords at a reasonable speed using that one, add the pinkie for 2235.
Sorry, I was giving you A minor forms (I've edited the original so it's correct).

Actually the A major 2245 should be less stressful for the fretting hand than 2240, you can just barre naturally across all the strings rather than arching the hand to avoid the E string. You might be able to fret the top string with yr 3rd finger rather than the pinkie BTW.

2245 and 2240 will indeed sound different, depends what you like the sound of but the fretted 5 does emphasize the root more, which tends to be what people want.

Of course if you want to play BG all you have to do for chords is chop away on the G & D strings anyhow http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif .

[mmdm]

Frank - I'd just been trying to play them and I wrote them wrong, too! I was playing the right strings, though, even if I typed them wrong. I actually don't like playing background much. I'd much rather play the melody. But the guys don't like playing bg either, so we have to take turns. After all, somebody has to do it. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[otterly2k]

mmdm-- as mentioned, it is good to develop barring capability, but it is also is a worthy strategy to work on getting those fingers close and using two fingers instead of barring for some configurations. As a woman with small hands, you should be able to manage this... I"m a woman with small hands and wide fingers and it's do-able for me... it might just take practice and developing a clearer sense of how to position your hands. May be worth a try.

Also-- just FYI... there are other ways than chords to play background to melody. Before anyone jumps on me, I'll add that it IS good to learn chords in different positions. AND there are other ways to accompany melody such as using moving lines, harmonies, countermelodies, and not playing whole chords, just parts of chords.

[mmdm]

mmdm-- as mentioned, it is good to develop barring capability, but it is also is a worthy strategy to work on getting those fingers close and using two fingers instead of barring for some configurations. As a woman with small hands, you should be able to manage this... I"m a woman with small hands and wide fingers and it's do-able for me... it might just take practice and developing a clearer sense of how to position your hands. May be worth a try.

Also-- just FYI... there are other ways than chords to play background to melody. Before anyone jumps on me, I'll add that it IS good to learn chords in different positions. AND there are other ways to accompany melody such as using moving lines, harmonies, countermelodies, and not playing whole chords, just parts of chords.
When I try using 2 fingers, I can't get them one directly under the other, so one of them ends up not being very near the fret. I can't find a picture anywhere of this position should look. I'd love to see an actual hand making this formation to see what I should be doing. Do you know of a photo anywhere?

Your information on playing background is intriguing and I'd love to learn more about those other ways. I'm pretty new to all this and haven't come across any of that information. I live in the boonies and unfortunately, don't have musician friends. All of my music comes from books, so I just play what is written. I want to learn to do more than that, of course, but I'm not sure how. Any leads to point me in the right direction for finding out more about harmonies, moving lines and such would be very appreciated.

[jmcgann]

My Octave Mandolin book (http://www.johnmcgann.com/om.html) has fully transcribed backup for all the tunes that can easily be applied to the little mando. Lots of partial chords, drone ideas, textural Irish style backup, as well as some jazz and swing stuff.

[mmdm]

My Octave Mandolin book (http://www.johnmcgann.com/om.html) has fully transcribed backup for all the tunes that can easily be applied to the little mando. Lots of partial chords, drone ideas, textural Irish style backup, as well as some jazz and swing stuff.
I actually had that bookmarked already for future use. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif I think it is a little over my head right now. Any tips on how to know what to do when it isn't already written in the music? Everyone always says to just watch and listen to other musicians, but I haven't found any here to watch yet, lol.

[otterly2k]

mmdm--I'd say even if you can't find mandolin players locally to watch, you can start by listening listening listening to a wide variety of music on mando... there's a lot of free downloadable mp3s on this site that will give you a smattering if music in each of many genres...then whichever genres appeal to you... follow the trail and listen to more of that (those).

It has never been easier to find music to listen to, with all the downloadable stuff out there, and you can sample most of it before buying.

for an example of weaving mando backgrounds and rhythm, I have been most inspired by Andy Irvine, alone and with the group Planxty. I'm sure there will be many other suggestions as well.

John's book is great too-- I love that it has the information in many forms...written in music notation AND tabbed, provides melody AND backup, comes with a CD that has the melody in one speaker and the accompaniment in another... for optimized support of learning whichever you are trying to learn. Or just listen...

[jmcgann]

In the book there is a section called "Breaking Away From Block Chords". We all learn chords as shapes, and tend to thing of them as stagnant chunks of sound. The thing is, chords are merely a select group of notes from the scale of the moment. Get to know the individual notes: in an A chord they are A C# E (that's easy ain't it?)

2245= AEC#A
2200=AEAE
2600=C#EAE

all good A chord voicings. Hey, what about 9745 (EAC#A)?!?!?

Now, we can mix and match some other notes from the scale in there to get some melodic movement within the overall "umbrella" of the chord symbol of A. For example, I might keep the top two notes A and E on strings 2 and 1 open, and put a little motion on the lower strings, by mixing up connective scale tones and making little "sub-melodies" or countermelodies in the bass. These can be very simple, at the half note or quarter note level, doesn't have to be as busy as the melody. Very effective. Of course, the book will give you concrete examples, but there is the basic chemistry.

Know your chord tones, they are the key of life- even the key to melody!

[mmdm]

Wow, that does sound over my head, but maybe if I was looking at the examples in the book I could get it. I'm pretty visual. I will try to learn a few more basic chords first, since I am still just beginning with the chords. The melody always seems like a lot more fun, especially since I am almost always playing alone. Chords are not fun to practice alone! I know I will need them eventually though, so I will keep at it.

[otterly2k]

mmdm-- don't be discouraged. John just described in break-it-down music theory terms something that I (and others) do more intuitively (that is, the theory knowledge is IN us, but just in different language). There are many ways to learn.

You may benefit from finding a teacher who can help you maximize your learning using your learning style. In the meantime, if you play what you enjoy and enjoy what you play, you will be learning whether you know it or not!

[mmdm]

mmdm-- don't be discouraged. John just described in break-it-down music theory terms something that I (and others) do more intuitively (that is, the theory knowledge is IN us, but just in different language). There are many ways to learn.

You may benefit from finding a teacher who can help you maximize your learning using your learning style. In the meantime, if you play what you enjoy and enjoy what you play, you will be learning whether you know it or not!
I do have a teacher for 30 minutes once a week but no classes during the summer. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/sad.gif I really miss them, even though you can't do much in half an hour. It does give me a chance to play with someone else a little bit, though. He's a music major and does a lot of music theory speak, too, most of which goes right over my head unless he actually shows me what he is talking about. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[JEStanek]

MMDM,
Be sure to ask for more detail if your instructor goes over your head. It may feel awkward the first couple of times but once you two are on the same page you'll get much more outta your time together!

Jamie

[mmdm]

Oh, I do. And I bought a music theory book for mandolin but the whole first half of the book is just learning the different scales and it instructs you NOT to skip ahead until you know them all. I only know a few scales by heart so I am still working on those.

[howbahmando]

Oh, I do. And I bought a music theory book for mandolin but the whole first half of the book is just learning the different scales and it instructs you NOT to skip ahead until you know them all. I only know a few scales by heart so I am still working on those.
Oh, bad bad bad. Totally backwards. And heinously user-unfriendly. Throw that book away.

Instead, try:

Ed Roseman: Edly's Music Theory for Practical People (for general theory)

and (maybe later)

Fred Sokolow: Fretboard Roadmaps: Mandolin

[mmdm]

Oh, I do. And I bought a music theory book for mandolin but the whole first half of the book is just learning the different scales and it instructs you NOT to skip ahead until you know them all. I only know a few scales by heart so I am still working on those.
Oh, bad bad bad. Totally backwards. And heinously user-unfriendly. Throw that book away.

Instead, try:

Ed Roseman: Edly's Music Theory for Practical People (for general theory)

and (maybe later)

Fred Sokolow: Fretboard Roadmaps: Mandolin
Really? I got the recommendation from someone here! I'll see if I can find those and look into getting one of them soon.

[otterly2k]

IMHO, this just reinforces the concept that people have different learning styles and need/prefer different types of instruction and materials.

[howbahmando]

Oh, I do. And I bought a music theory book for mandolin but the whole first half of the book is just learning the different scales and it instructs you NOT to skip ahead until you know them all. I only know a few scales by heart so I am still working on those.
Oh, bad bad bad. #Totally backwards. #And heinously user-unfriendly. #Throw that book away.

Instead, try:

Ed Roseman: #Edly's Music Theory for Practical People #(for general theory)

and (maybe later)

Fred Sokolow: #Fretboard Roadmaps: #Mandolin
Really? I got the recommendation from someone here! I'll see if I can find those and look into getting one of them soon.
I can't imagine how learning scales by rote before learning anything about music theory would do anything but delay your learning about music theory.

How many scales are you supposed to learn before the author deigns to tell you anything about music theory, anyhow? There are 12 major scales, 12 harmonic minor scales, 12 natural minor scales .... then there's diminished scales ... pentatonic scales ... pentatonic minor scales ... blues scales ... hexatonic scales ....

Really, I'm sure whoever recommended that book meant well, but trust me on this. Learn scales IN THE CONTEXT OF theory. It just makes sense.

[kww]

I don't know that I would learn scales by rote before learning anything about music theory, but there is a lot to be said about practice scales by rote. One exercise I am still working my way through as I learn this instrument is to do (as a single, continuous, error-free exercise) scales, thirds, and intervals in all 12 major scales, in order by half-steps from A to Ab, using the FFcP system. Boring, yes, tedious, yes, but my fingers are learning how all of the intervals feel in each key. I still miss and botch notes (I am a beginner at this thing), but every day my fingers get a better feel for it. I firmly believe that patience at this stage will pay off later.

Of course, I have the luxury of being able to pick up an instrument I can actually play when I get frustrated with my mandolin progress. When the student can't play any other instruments, I think that scale practice will ultimately get so boring and frustrating that the instrument gets cast aside.

[Philphool]

One of the best chord practice routines I have is playing the chord progression for "Alabama Jubilee" over and over. It's fun to play with chords, you can substitute a different voicing for a chord on each repetition, and then you can move up a fret and do it all in a different key! It gives the fingers some memory for relative positions of 7 chords (throws in a minor, too) that are frequently played together without just repeating 3 chords over and over like many songs. (The circle of fifths pattern is so common in many music genres.)

Progression is: A D G C A Dm C E F C D G C

Hope this helps with chords. (Just another idea.)

Phil http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[mmdm]

One of the best chord practice routines I have is playing the chord progression for "Alabama Jubilee" over and over.

Progression is: A D G C A Dm C E F C D G C

Phil http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Sounds like a great idea. I'll need to learn Dm and F to practice it. My first mandolin book started with the F chord as the second lesson. It sounded awful when I tried to play it and it hurt a lot. I almost took the mandolin back in despair. after a couple of weeks of practice without any improvement on that F, I bought another book that started with melodies and happily went on from there, ignoring that F and that book. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif I guess it is time to revisit the dreaded F chord, LOL!

[dj coffey]

I agree with the writer about how practicing chords alone is kindof boring. One of the trickiest things about getting chords under your fingers is handling the transitions from one chord to another - and also - chosing the right chord form to make those transitions easy.

One thing I've brought into my warmup is an idea from my early piano lessons, which is to play the scales of the common keys, then play the I, IV, I, V,V7, I chord sequence. I've also expanded it to include ii and vi which appear to show up fairly commonly (although I haven't quite mapped out the common transitions to and from those two chords).

The goal is to feel comfortable with the chords and transiitoning between them.

So, for D, I play the D major scale in open position, then I play the chords:
D, G, D, A, A7, D, em, bm
For G, I play the scale, then G, C, G, D, D7, G, am, em
etc.

I figure once I have these under my fingers, I'll move on to playing in other positions, and working out the chords and transitions that fit best with that position.

[AlanN]

I guess it is time to revisit the dreaded F chord, LOL!
You're in good company. I remember an interview with Levon Helm, he ended it by saying that maybe he'll learn to play in F someday.

[mmdm]

One thing I've brought into my warmup is an idea from my early piano lessons, which is to play the scales of the common keys, then play the I, IV, I, V,V7, I chord sequence. I've also expanded it to include ii and vi which appear to show up fairly commonly (although I haven't quite mapped out the common transitions to and from those two chords).
Another great practice idea, thanks!

[howbahmando]

I guess it is time to revisit the dreaded F chord, LOL!
You might just try "faking" an F chord: x301

Gets the job done!

[Philphool]

Just an addendum on the "Alabama Jubilee" thing and the dreaded F chord.

When you're first starting with chords, I find that the easiest way to play E and F chords is the same fingering as the C (523x) and just move the shape up 4 frets for E (967x)and up one more for F (10 7 8 x).
Then you can work in the other forms one at a time later.

Phil