Black Round Thingies on the Strings [Archive]

Soupy1957

Jun-15-2006, 3:54am

So, let me get this straight. Most folks who play a Mandolin with any seriousness or regularity would use these types of dampening devices? I can't say I've ever heard any overtones or rattling tailpieces, but obviously some folks have.
I gather that if I was to go to my local guitar center or music store, they probably have these little round thingies, eh? (What DO they call them?)
If I use a piece of leather, I presume I must weave it between the pairs of strings as opposed to in between each of the 8 strings, eh?

Jerry Byers

Jun-15-2006, 4:19am

You would be hard pressed to find the grommets at a local music store - try looking at Radio Shack or a hardward store. You can check with Steve Stone, a member on the Cafe, if you're interested in grommets. If you're looking for leather, check out my signature.

mythicfish

Jun-15-2006, 4:47am

Soupy,
These thingies (and that's their *real* name!) appearing on mandolins is a recent phenomenon. In the days preceeding the one-piece tail piece, folks would just shove a piece of leather between the strings and the sliding cover to eliminate
"tail piece rattle". Or they'd put the cover in their pocket.Then, when the pants or shirt would go into the laundry, the cover would get lost or mangled. And that's why we see so many old Gibsons with missing pieces. The reason for missing pick guards is another story ... possibly enough information there for a Master's thesis.
As for the surpression of overtones: These thingies are certainly useful in a recording environment. If you're playing live through a PA system ... maybe. In an unamplified setting or jam overtones don't seem to be an issue. At least I've never heard the topic come up.

Curt

mandoisland

Jun-15-2006, 5:34am

The resonances depend very much on the kind of strings and the geometry of the mandolin. It can be very annoying, even if you play the mandolin without amplification. Sometimes also the strings between the nut and the head can resonate and influence the sound.
Mostly there is a disturbance only for certain notes.
For this reasons the damping of the string-ends is a must.
Michael

BluegrassGirl26

Jun-15-2006, 7:58am

The Weber company (used to be Flatirons before Gibson bought them out) call "the little thingies" wood nymphs. I have one on my Yellowstone and it works very well.

Soupy1957

Jun-15-2006, 2:06pm

Mythicfish,
I noted on a webpage about stringing the Mandolin, that they spoke about bending the runners for the Cover on the Tail Piece, so that it was snug. I checked mine, and it seems to be willing to move toward the strings, but not in and out, (if that makes any sense), and it only drops down toward the strings (on the end closer to the bridge) if I push it that way. Doesn't seem to float on its own, and I don't think I'm getting any extra sounds I shouldn't be.
-Soupy1957

Soupy1957

Jun-15-2006, 2:07pm

Bluegrassgirl,
Glad to have a lady on board!! Welcome!!
-Soupy1957

Soupy1957

Jun-15-2006, 2:08pm

Mandoisland,
Sounds like you recommend a chunk of leather in there regardless.
-Soupy1957

lkb3rd

Jun-15-2006, 2:25pm

I cut a short piece of excess leather lacing off my strap and it works great

Soupy1957

Jun-15-2006, 3:48pm

lkb3rd,
Thanks.....sounds like a great idea!!
-Soupy1957

mandolinplucker

Jun-25-2006, 10:06pm

They are electrical gromits. Radio shack has them in a bag of assorted sizes. If you us them you need some extras. If you break a string the gromit (spelling ain't even close) shoots off to parts unknown.

Jerry Byers

Jun-26-2006, 4:42am

If you us them you need some extras. If you break a string the gromit (spelling ain't even close) shoots off to parts unknown.
That is why I recommend the leather strips.

Steven Stone

Jun-26-2006, 9:41am

[They are electrical gromits. Radio shack has them in a bag of assorted sizes. If you us them you need some extras. If you break a string the gromit (spelling ain't even close) shoots off to parts unknown. ]

I've been selling Steve's Silencers for four years now. I've never had anyone tell me how they've lost so many they had to re-order a ten-pack.

Personally I've been using grommets for five years and have yet to lose my first Silencer.

Some folks break strings, some folks don't

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

AlanN

Jun-26-2006, 10:18am

Some folks break strings, some folks don't

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif
The only time I break strings is when they need to be broken (i.e., I'm past due for a string change) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Jerry Byers

Jun-26-2006, 10:37am

The only time that I break strings is when I first put them on. I have broke 5 or 6 strings - all E strings, all of them new. Once they are strung up and tuned, I never have a problem with them.

Brady Smith

Jun-26-2006, 10:44am

I've never broken a string but I have lost those rubber grommets too many times. I lose them when I change strings. Never remember they're on there till it's too late and I've sent one across the room somewhere. Some day I'll be able to mine my house for rubber grommets.

glauber

Jun-26-2006, 10:50am

My Mid-Mo has a piece of felt jammed under the tailpiece cover where you can't see it.

JEStanek

Jun-26-2006, 10:59am

Brady, they can all be found in your vacuum cleaner bag. No need for strip mining! If only they would silence the vacuum.

Jamie

AlanN

Jun-26-2006, 1:35pm

The vacuum bag, it holds treaures untold - picks, coins, earings.

Stephen Perry

Jun-27-2006, 4:19am

I can hear the untuned overtones rather clearly when I'm working on mandolins. I don't hear them nearly as strongly in simply listening to mandolins played. The strip really helps me hear what's going on.

jenford

Jul-08-2006, 8:51pm

i have an old bowlback that had felt in the tailpiece. Looked to be about 100 years old - old as the mando.

jen

mandroid

Jul-10-2006, 2:08am

Gummi Sphincters.

Steven Stone

Jul-10-2006, 8:40am

[Gummi Sphincters. ]

Wow. That sure elevates the level of this discussion... http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

Jerry Byers

Jul-10-2006, 8:45am

I wasn't going to say anything.

mandroid

Jul-10-2006, 2:24pm

FWIW those O rings in James TP seem to do the damping, and holds the lid shut too.
clever boy, that bill.
felt patches seem fine on the 2 piece TPs, to the same result.
Cast tailpieces of other sorts apparently benefit from remedial damping..
leather bits and pipecleaners, Grommets too.
(Cheese ?, grommet.. )

Smyers

Jul-10-2006, 3:55pm

Soupy1957,

BluegrassGirl26 mentioned something called a Wood Nymph, made by Weber. #What she didn't explain fully is that this "Wood Nymph" product performs the function the same as the rubber grommets, except it is a little piece of crafted ebony wood with felt, two brass screws and two o-rings. #The nice thing about the Wood Nymph is that it can be put on any mandolin, without restringing in about 10 seconds! #You can just take it on and off as you please. #Plus it looks pretty nice. #Better than the grommets anyway. #I use a Wood Nymph to stop those annoying metalic sympathetic harmonics of the strings below the bridge. #Yes, the harmonics do bug me without amplification and make the sound less clear. #Some people it doesn't seem to bother. #Those harmonics are most noticable when doing hard chopped chords, as they are still ringing when the chord is dampened. #The leather or felt strip will do the same thing, it just isn't as "pretty".

Smyers

Jul-10-2006, 4:04pm

Soupy1957,

Here's a photo of a Wood Nymph installed on my Mando.

DryBones

Jul-10-2006, 4:49pm

is that a King Brown OT armrest? how do you like it?

Jerry Byers

Jul-10-2006, 5:31pm

Soupy1957,

Here's a photo of a Wood Nymph installed on my Mando.
It's actually installed upside down. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Steven Stone

Jul-10-2006, 6:28pm

If you look at the pic of the wood nymph you will notice it spreads the gaps between the strings.

The bigger spread effects tuning since it in essence pulls the strings tighter. This pulling may also have an effect on how the mandolin feels.

Grommets (at least the ones I sell) don't have any effect on the string spacing or the tuning.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Jerry Byers

Jul-10-2006, 7:36pm

You can actually install the Wood Nymph where it doesn't spread the strings. However, it becomes harder to get on and off. The strings in the picture are resting on the outside of the grommets, instead on top of the grommets. If you have one, you'll know what I mean.

Smyers

Jul-11-2006, 5:21am

To my understanding, the Wood Nymph is not installed backward. #The shaved off angle is supposed to be installed toward the bridge so that if your arm comes close to the bridge (or if you have the habit or resting your arm on the strings below the bridge) it will not dig into your arm. #If I were to install it the other way with the angle toward the tailpiece, the Wood Nymph would actully stick up higher than the bridge, which isn't a good thing. #At least that is my theory. #I guess we would have to ask Bruce Weber what his real intent is.

The strings are acutally on top of the grommets, but have just not been squeezed in all the way. #If one was to take the time to wiggle the Wood Nymph up and down and squeeze strings together to seat them in deeper on the grommets, you can get the strings parallel once again. #I used to do this, but I found that going to that trouble isn't necessary, as it works fine and doesn't affect the tuning just as it is shown in the photo. #I know, I should be publically flogged for not caring about this detail anymore. #It actually doesn't affect the tuning by more than a couple of cents when you first put it on. #And once you retune, it holds just fine. #I have never noticed any difference in "feel" of the mando having a Wood Nymph on. #Its so small and light that unless you are one who braces your arm on the strings where you would touch the Wood Nymph during play, you'll never notice it. #I'll grant that just grommets don't pull the strings at all out of parallel.

Smyers

Jul-11-2006, 5:22am

Drybones,

Yes, that is a King Brown OT (over the tailpiece) armrest. This works very well for me, as my arm tends to come over the mando right at the top edge of the tailpiece where it digs into my arm. The transition David Brown put in where the armrest "bends" up over the tailpiece doesn't dig into my arm like the tailpiece did. It's quite comfortable. A standard armrest didn't work for me, as my arm barely touched it at all.

Jerry Byers

Jul-11-2006, 5:33am

When I had a Weber Fern, it had a Wood Nymph installed; however, it was installed with the scallop pointing towards the tailpiece. It is shown this way in most pictures. I guess it really doesn't matter which way it goes, as the bottom posts are identical. Here is a photo from Weber's website.

Smyers

Jul-11-2006, 5:57am

Interesting. #I guess its whatever one wants. #Frankly, I was a bit confused by the chamfer when I first got it. #(It doesn't take much.) #To my recollection, no explanation of the chamfer comes with it.

I took a look at Weber's site. #It appears that the design of the Wood Nymph is now a bit different from the one I have. #The chamfer is now a smooth radius. #But more importantly, there is no felt under the screws on the photos of the bottom of the Wood Nymph on their web site. #Indeed takes a bit of work to wedge the strings between the grommets and the felt by the screws that exists on my Wood Nymph. #If you go too far, you can actually pop the o-ring off the screw entirely. #(I know, I've doen it.) #It makes sense that taking out the felt under the screws would make it easier to get the strings parallel. #You would leave the pieces of felt for the D & A strings of course. #The o-rings themselves would serve to dampen out the G & E strings. #Thanks for making me look! #I may have learned something new. #I'll have to ask Weber about this little change.

jmcgann

Jul-11-2006, 9:45am

I think about cutting out "overring" more than "overtones". Play a very stacatto chop chord. Hear the overrring? The strings resonate between the nut and tuners as well as between the bridge and tailpiece. Shove somethin' under thar and you get a nice CLEAN chop, stacatto without overring. The grommets are a pretty elegant solution.

To me that's the why behind 'em. Sam Bush was the first I knew of who did it way back when. It makes a BIG difference in the recording studio!

Smyers

Jul-11-2006, 9:59am

I called Weber and asked about the felt under the screws on my Wood Nymph and the chamfer on the Wood Nymph. #The current photos on the Weber web site do show it correctly with the chamfer toward the bridge, which was Vern's (the designer of the Wood Nymph) orignal intent. #But they also said that the two screws are in the same depth on both sides of the Wood Nymph, so it really doesn't matter which way you install it. #i.e. - no such thing as backward. #It's just a personal preference thing.

They were a bit grey on whether the felt is under the screws on the current design. #So they are sending me a new one to have a look at.

Well, that was an interesting piece of research. #I now feel way too informed on Weber Wood Nymphs. #On to more important things, like actually practicing. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

VernBrekke

Jul-11-2006, 4:45pm

I guess that John has already answered some of the questions on the phone, but just to clarify a bit more:

The Wood Nymph has a slight taper on each side. The taper was intended to match the taper of the strings toward the tailpiece. So, the shorter side would be toward the tailpiece, although it works the same either way. The early ones were shaped by hand so there was some variation on the shape of the scallop. As we started to sell more, I added the scalloped contour to the cut program and the later ones are more consistent.

We will have to change the picture on our web site. I didn’t realize that we still had a picture of the old mounting grommets on the site. On the early nymphs, the strings snapped around rubber grommets. As Steve has mentioned, the size of the grommets could spread the strings a bit and I never really felt comfortable with that. The later design has felt pads under all the strings and an o-ring that holds the nymph in place on the strings. The o-ring is mounted on a screw that is only 1/16 inch in diameter so there is plenty of room between the strings and the screw. There is also enough space to accommodate slightly different string spacing than ours.

Probably more than anyone really wanted to know, but it has been a fun product for us and I’m glad that they are being used.

Thanks,

Vern

Smyers

Jul-11-2006, 4:58pm

VernBrekke,

I'm getting a chuckle because the direction of mounting you are telling me the opposite of what John told me. Well, no matter. It works either way!

DryBones

Jul-11-2006, 7:04pm

Its just nice to see that we have builders that take part in this forum, what a great place! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

JEStanek

Jul-11-2006, 7:10pm

I have a Weber Wood Nymph on my Beartooth (a wonderful mandolin by the way) and while I never thought I would buy one I'm really glad I have it. It's easier to use than the leather strip or gromets. it looks nice... is kind of a hand rest. I don't know how old it is but it has a straight side (towards the bridge) and a convex side (towards the tailpiece).

I can only assume it's on correctly (either to John or Vern's specs http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )because the folks at Weber put it on after I had them service my mando.

Jamie

VernBrekke

Jul-12-2006, 10:30am

John is a great guitarist, song writer and musician (Kanes River and Grumpy Old Men) and we shared an office way back when we both worked for Gibson/Flatiron so I can say with some authority that he’s usually 140% right at least 65% of the time but in this rare instance, his specific knowledge of nymphs or possibly (to give him the benefit of the doubt) his understanding of the question was not a true reflection of his normal brilliance.

Vern

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

B. T. Walker

Jul-12-2006, 11:14am

What a page two to this thread! Very interesting discussion of the Wood Nymph here makes me feel lowly since I'm a mere grommet user. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

GeoMandoAlex

Jul-13-2006, 5:10am

After countless times in the course of changing my strings and forgeting about the grommets, they seemed to have a "magnetic-like" attraction for the soundholes. There is nothing like trying to get a grommet out of the mandolin once it's in there. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif Sometimes I'd have a brain cramp and start to change the next string only to repeat the process over again. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I've switched to a leather strap woven between the strings. Works just a well, and it does not get sucked into my mandolin.