New Mandolins from Overseas

[AeroJoe]

It is almost scary how some of the instruments coming from overseas are starting to do (AGAIN) just what DID actually happen in the '70's...they are coming closer with each instrument, in quality and sound, to rivaling adn surpassing the big names over here. Check out those "Angel" violins that George Gruhn has.../made in China/...they are just incredible...I know people here in NC, not only bluegrass fiddlers /but people in the NC Symphony,/ that are happily playing these instruments, whereas 10 years ago, a Chinese violin would hardly be worthy of a kid taking the Suzuki method. These things have begun to hurt the violin "market" because of their rocket accent into the highest levels of quality and sound...all for a lower price. Why pay 1.6 million for a genuine Strad when a new "Angel" violin sounds even /better/ for $1,700? The new Gold Star Banjos (not to be confused with 'Goldtone') have made quite the impression with pickers here in NC...I am seeing them at the festivals/fiddler's conventions more and more, and they are unreal...they sound more like a pre-war Gibsons than alot of real pre-war Gibson's.

//My point is//, it will be most interesting to see what kind of MANDOLINS will soon be on the horizon...I think the MK's are the first ripple in the pond...//

It will also be interesting to see how the big name instrument makers respond...Remember how Martin used to /never/ have endorsees? They were proud of that, that even if a famous person used one, he/she bought it same as everyone else. But not anymore, they've got a guitar model for just about anyone that's had 15 minutes of fame in the musical spotlight... Then you've got Gibson and Fender "distressing" instruments, (did you ever //really// think you'd see THAT?)...I would guess you will start to see more lawsuits...it's not beyond the realm of possibility that Gibson might slap a lawsuit on some of these foreign makers, like as with Ibanez back in 70's, IF the quality starts to equal or surpass what is coming out Nashville now, (and they start to lose business)...<thank goodness they still hold the ace by having the rights to the f-style body shape>...but it's not beyond the realm of possiblity either that they may have to show and play that ace...Who could blame them?

No bashing here, buy what you want, that's the way alot of posts end in summary...but I can tell you this...if a foreign maker starts offering better quality instruments, (better as in fit & finish and tone & volume and everything else) all at a much lower price, I think you are going to see alot of people not really caring anymore what name is on their peghead...I played a Sumi mandolin over the weekend, yes, it had a few custom options...but the thing was finished on the INSIDE of the scroll and up under the fretboard extension as clean as the outside of the body...Somebody took some time to do that...

[atetone]

Oh no!!! I am going to get stuck with all of this American junk!!!
I'll have to sell it for pennies on the dollar. It's a cruel, cruel world.
Just when I thought I was getting somewhere.!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

Seriously though, you know I wouldn't be suprised if some of the imports took a run at the higher quality market. They have the cost of labour on their side and could probably do some pretty nice work if they really wanted to.

[Dioptase]

You know.. as much as the cost of my mandolin habit has hurt me and my plans in life (it's kept me stuck in Florida another year...) I really wouldn't want to see foreign makers enter the high end market of musical instruments. We've already outsourced our technology. Lets not outsource craftsmanship as well.

And while those who know me know that I take some extreme issue to some American polics of late.. I'd hate to see people give up on what's truly great about our country. Our music, our worksmanship... and our beer. (Raising a Yellowsnow Ale in salute).

But you do make a number of good points. And it will be interesting to see what the response on the part of American makers will be. We live in a society that all too often values form over substance.. once the quality of the imported instruments begins to match their appearance.. Our music.. all acoustic music, I feel.. would seem to draw the folks out who are secure in their roots and their values. And ultimatly, I think, that's what is at stake. How do we sing a sincere song about American life, values, and suffering while ultimately undermining Americas greatest assets-- our artists and our craftsmen?


Micah

[Dolamon]

Unfortunate reality isn't it? But Micah, you answered it in your first paragraph of your second listing ... "My mandolin habit has kept me in Florida ..." If the imports are capable of giving you the sound you want, then so be it. Asian artisan's in one form or another have been crafting fine items of all sorts for thousands of years. Mandolins are just another avenue for them to help support themselves.

I suppose there is somewhere in Shanghai a parking lot jam session with folks tailgating on bicycles is happening right now ... or a kitchen session with woks in attendance is being planned. Have the high end instruments made in America priced themselves out of the competition? I don't think so, but for a person with a tighter belt and more limited means, this has to be considered a viable alternative to the maligned and despised, American made Tacoma's or other beginner instruments made in America. You pay your money when you make your choices - caveat emptor.

The trade off is being forced to live in a place you're no longer comfortable in ... or playing an American made musical instrument.

[Big Joe]

The Chinese are doing a great job with what they have to work with. Some of the fiddles and upright Basses coming from there are fantastic. We have a couple in our stores that are hand carved, tap tuned, old highly figured maple and top grade spruce tops. They are finished in a very nice oil varnish and they look and sound incredible!

Fortunately, they have not yet mastered the art of the mandolin. I think there are a couple reasons for that. First, the market for upper end mandolins is pretty limited and the profit that could be derived is pretty small. That will stem the tide for quite some time. Second, they have not mastered the art of the finish as is used on top quality mandolins. Most chinese instruments still use a polyesther finish or something like it. It's kind of like dipping your mandolin in plastic. The finish will likely never wear out, but the instrument will never improve in sound. They are not doing real good carving of the tops and backs yet and since they don't play, they really are not that into the tone thing of the mandolin.

Yes, they do build a lot of mandolins (mostly with the assistance and guidance of the American importers), and for the money many of them are quite nice. However, the fine details that seperate the really good mandolins from the mediocre or average are beyond their reach at this time. Who knows about tomorrow. The one thing I have learned as I've continued to live is that nothing stays the same http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[jlb]

I'll tell you, and I'm no conniseur, that the best sounding fiddle in any jam circles around here in my humble opinion is an Eastman (Chinese, I believe).

I think the more immediate "threat" to the American mando industry is Czheck builders. Some I've heard are really quite impressive...but usually they are asking prices right up their with American builders, so instead of going under the American market, they are basically trying to compete with it.

I can't say I'm really dissappointed in this. Seems to me that quality products from abroad tend to keep the quality and cost of American products in check, and that is healthy for consumers.

[mandodon]

Don't forget that arguably the definitive modern bluegrass mandolin for pros comes out of Australia.

Argh!......I'm not touching this thread as I fell VERY strongly about it........My signature line covers my thoughts on this subject.

[dudleyunderhill]

Don't forget that arguably the definitive modern bluegrass mandolin for pros comes out of Australia.

Okay, time to flaunt my naivete. #What mandolin is that?

[John Flynn]

Quote (mandodon @ April 13 2004, 12:51)
Don't forget that arguably the definitive modern bluegrass mandolin for pros comes out of Australia.
Okay, time to flaunt my naivete. What mandolin is that?


Steven Gilchrist is Australian and does most of his work there, although I am told he sometimes comes over here to build for the American market.

[happycamper]

I have a great big time problem feeling real sorry for the part time dealer that bashed my Pacific Rim mandolin before.

[Tom C]

I've been hearing good things about Blueridge guitars where people are actually putting down their Martins. I know nothing of guitars, it's just from posts that I have read.

Who asked you to feel sorry R.E.? Tell ya what, I'll just delete that post if in your misguided way you thought that was some kind of plea for sympathy.........That dang sure wasn't how it was intended. If by chance your ears are burning.......guess why.

[Big Joe]

My goodness...I'm being baited by mandodon http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif . Yes, there are some Pac Rim mandolins that are pretty durn good...Steve's and Duff for sure...

[GTison]

my 2 cents he said "just like in the 70's" most American makers are not putting out junk. It may be costly but It's top quality also. ... And quite knowledgably built. I own a KM1000 from the "golden age" of kentucky's mandolins. It wasn't made at the mass production factory like the rest but rather by a small shop(Sumi) But in the early 90's their QC went to pot. I remember the f holes in the wrong place and other weird mfg stuff. Granted the pac rims do mass produce them well. They may well figure it out and go for the high end mandolin market. But the large co.s usually don't end up going for it. Just like them moving factories from one country to another every few years to get the best deal on mfg. cost. since it's cost/profit driven and not Quality driven I don't think they'll ever get to the top of the name list. like the old saying goes 'PRICE, QUALITY, SERVICE-you can only pick two'. And another thing all this cheap labor overseas. Is't it almost the same as slavery was in this country? Where's the world's outrage about that?

[mandodon]

Big Joe,

Just a little gentle ribbing.

Believe me, I can't afford a Master Model or that category of Pac-Rim mando http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Jaded]

I think the main place pacific rim mandos will have an impact if they can acheive something beyond entry level quality is on the mid-range mass produced American instruments and small builders who are only able to compete because they are cheaper than the mass producers.

Small builders who are making it based on the quality of their products will continue to be able to do so.

However, I think certain mass producers who are turning out 9 mediocre instruments for every 1 good one will either have to increase their quality or decrease their price to compete.

I think people will remain willing to pay a reasonable amount extra for an American made product of equal or greater quality, but they will not pay extra for something inferior.

[JD Cowles]

folks, at the rate that our jobs are being shipped overseas, we need to keep as many of them here at home as we can. #i'd sooner wait and save a little longer to have a small builder here at home build my mando than buy a cheap pac rim mando anyday. #actually, i did, and i'm glad. #it's hard enough to buy american these days, and we all have to speak with our wallets as that's the only thing our current "government" understands. #make the effort and the sacrifices and buy american whenever you can. #oh yeah, and vote this fall...

END OF RANT #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[August Watters]

I think there are some faulty assumptions going on:

"I think the more immediate "threat" to the American mando industry is Czheck builders. #Some I've heard are really quite impressive..."

There is no Czech mandolin maker anywhere near the size to threaten the US industry. The only sizeable Czech manufacturer with the production volume to compete with the US manufacturers is Furch -- who barely has a toehold in the US. #The Czech builders discussed on this board are almost all small, one-man shops -- most of them making 10 to 20 instruments a year. The largest is Lebeda, who has a larger operation -- but at about 100 instruments a year, for the entire world, he's not in a position to exactly "threaten" anyone.

"but usually they are asking prices right up their with American builders, so instead of going under the American market, they are basically trying to compete with it."

The economics of paying a living wage to a Czech luthier, plus the costs of doing business to bring them to the US, put their instruments in a price range similar to US builders -- if you're thinking of the less experienced US builders at the lower end of the price spectrum. If you compare the most experienced Czech builders in price, they're still well below US builders of similar stature.

In the short run, yes, the Czech builders are "competing" for sales with their US counterparts -- but seen as a percentage of overall sales, the sales of Czech mandolins in the US is a drop in the bucket. My opinion is that in the longer term there is really no conflict, since more beautiful instruments in the world just raises demand for everyone.

". . .and small builders who are only able to compete because they are cheaper than the mass producers."

The only small builders cheaper than the mass producers are the hobbyists who are selling their work at cost -- the living wage required for a small builder just to pay the bills puts prices well above the US-manufactured instruments. And the US manufacturers like Rigel, Weber, Gibson and Collings are making such good-quality mandos, even in their lower ranges, that #a #amateur builders have a hard time matching the quality, never mind the price.

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings.com

[happycamper]

I well agree if you can afford an American made mandolin that is good.

I at first could not afford one it seemed, so I bought a Johnson MA-380 mandolin which has served me well learning.

I have since bought a Gibson A model and of course it has a great sound and beats the Pacific Rim all to pieces, but the cheap mando was okay for me to learn on and to see if I really wanted to play a mandolin.

[August Watters]

Which really calls into question: how much international competition is really going on? The Asian countries are using their cheap labor and other advantages to manufacture instruments cheaply -- but the quality does not approach the quality of the US-made instruments in higher price ranges -- so they're really filling a niche that the US can't, for reasonably good, inexpensive instruments.

As Big Joe points out, it's possible but unlikely that the Pac Rim manufacturers will go into midrange mandolins in any big way, because there's not much money in it -- Eastman is the beginning of the Pac Rim countries trying to use their manufacturing advantage to address the mid-range, not just the low end. But I don't think we'll be seeing a lot more similar entries, because the market just isn't big enough to be worth their time, except for the low-end.

In the higher range, we all know that the best builders around the world are on a level with their US counterparts -- and usually, they are accepted as peers, not competitors. Unfortunately, what's sometimes forgotten in these discussions is that there's a big difference between instruments made in Pac Rim factories, designed solely for export, and handmade instruments developed by master craftsmen responding to local traditions. The latter is the case in instruments coming from Australia, Canada, UK, Czech Republic, and a few others (even Japan, in the case of Sumi!).

August W

PS: Come on in, Dale, whaddaya sa? #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

Interesting that a lot of you are having this discussion like the entire membership of this board is all U.S. citizens living in the U.S. Trust me, it's far from it. Mandolin is a world instrument, not soley a U.S. instrument. Some of you will now make the argument there are way more mandolins in the U.S. than the rest of the world. I don't buy that.

World domination in the mandolin market! Wow, there's something to lust over.

Sorry, Dale. The world domination of the mandolin market has already happened. Texas lost.

[Scotti Adams]

....extra butter please..

I say we take over the WORLD!!! Just us and our F-5's !!!! #Come on Scott! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif We got Bill Monroe.. well we had Bill Monroe.. We got Sam Bush, David Grisman, Mike Compton, Chris Thile, Mike Marshall and etc. Who they got??


Come on guys World Domination I say.. Let's all saddle up.

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Wow this is a heavy topic, but there are great craftsmen all around the world, so its safe to say anywere on this planet someone could build a great mandolin or anything.I tend to like vintage american instruments from the 20's, but I have owned and own foreign made mandolins. And I gotta say them non-american boys made some nice stuff. I try to be open minded and let the instrument speak for itself http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/cool.gif

[GTison]

I kinda hate to see folks spend aproaching 900 bucks for a pac rim mandolin bar none. I know I bought one and paid more in today's dollars. ...but there are so many good builders and used instruments of good quality and vintage. I just hate to see it. When your ear gets trained enough to hear that tone you can't get out of that pac-rim you'll want a good one and you ain't gonna get half of what you paid for it, if you can sell it at all. However... that bug flying across the fretboard sure looks cool on that MK. I don't fault or discourage in any way the purchase of pac rims for students. Just don't spend too much.

"Sorry, Dale. The world domination of the mandolin market has already happened. Texas lost."

What.......how come nobody told me? # #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Chris Baird]

If one separates or ignores the origin and history of imported products then often times there is little grounds for viewing imported goods in a bad light. They are usually of decent quality and for relatively little money. However, if one takes into account what is being supported through the purchase of an import one may be inclined to buy domestic based on moral/political principles. China is a communist country and a corrupt one at that. The workers are forced to do jobs they do not choose and for wages regulated by the government. Wages that are far below our lowest concept of poverty in the US. To buy an import in order to save a few bucks is banking on communism. Now not all imports are from communist countries but in many places the circumstances are the same; workers with no freedom working just to survive with no hope of making it out of their impoverished state. Perhaps this is too political a response. I'll stop now.

[Bill Snyder]

There are some of out here that would never own a mandolin of any kind if not a cheap import. #I can't afford to spend the hundreds of dollars that a Mid-Mo costs. Some of the PacRim mandos sell for less than a high end bridge or tailpiece. They may not be much, but they are playable.
My budget for anything that is not a necessity is very tight.
I would love to have a good American built mandolin, but with kids to raise and bills to pay it isn't going to happen. That is one reason I am building my own - the other reason is I just want to build.

[Mastersound]

'PRICE, QUALITY, SERVICE-you can only pick two' I think here in Australa we'd generally pick quality and service over price, which means buying something nice from an Asian maker backed by service from a local store.

I've recently seen and played two outstanding guitars from China. A solidtop acoustic branded Travis that was up to Taylor quality, and similar in size, sound and features, and a set neck Les Paul that was (I think) branded J&D Luthiers and was honestly a very very nice guitar. Would they stand up to gigging? Possibly, but probably not. Will they appreciate in value? Definitely not. Could I afford the Taylor of Gibson? Nope. The Travis and the J&D? Yep. Easily.

Protection of jobs is important to all of us in countries like Australia and the USA, but at the end of the day shouldn't we be helping new players find their early and affordable instruments so they can discover the joy of this music game and maybe one day they'll have their Gibson or Fender or Maton? Isn't it better for a kid to pick up a Samick or similar guitar or mando and start playing than wonder how the hell he can save up every cent of four months wages to buy his Strat or brand name mando?

[Stephen Perry]

The conditions in China must vary. #I get some Chinese violins from small, independent makers. #Folks who studied in Italy, went home and trained a few people. #These folks and their workers are doing very well by Chinese standards. #Very well. #Of course, their work isn't incredibly cheap, either. #

Eastman has a bigger operation, but I see no evidence of exploitation. #Certainly they have a goodly number of Chinese staff here in the US. #The images of and reports about their Chinese shops suggest their workers are doing quite well.

I don't know anything about the state shops or the ones producing junk.

I've been talking with Gordon about mandolins since Eastman started being interested. #Saw prototypes and so on. #At NAMM in Nashville this last weekend I spent some time at their booth. #The mandolins were very well accepted. #I thought they were beautiful. #My buddy xxxxxx, fiddle and mandolin champion, professional music show guy (I'll protect his name) played one of the Eastman mandolins I picked up (a 515 F model) as he was coming out of the Gibson booth and indicated he thought it was better than anything they had as far as tone. #I didn't make the comparison - Gibson clearly didn't think I was important enough to talk to politely or deal with or anything, so I didn't bother checking out their mandolins at the show. #I'd like to carry Gibson. #A Tennessee maker with a popular line. #But they don't appear to give a hoot unless you're famous.

Anyway, I got some of the Eastmans so I'll see how they do in this market. #I like them so far. #They have a different look from the pure clone mandolins and are built by folks from a violinmaking background, which shows. Quite different from the MK and MM lines, for sure!

Steve