Learning to Read Notation

[Joe F]

Over the years, I’ve learned that there are three main ways to learn new tunes: notation, tablature, and ear. #There have been many discussions about which method is best, but I regard them as three legs on the same stool; all useful tools for learning how to play something new.

Currently, I can read tab pretty well, and I’m gradually developing an ear for picking up tunes at jams in the usual bluegrass and old-time keys (D, G, A). #I can’t read notation directly, but I know enough theory to translate notation into tablature. #In the past year I’ve been getting more and more immersed in the old-time world, and recently picked up a copy of the Portland Collection, which has all tunes in standard notation. #As a result, I’ve decided it’s time to stop procrastinating and just do it.

I’d appreciate any suggestions for books, web sites, etc. that would work the best for learning notation, given my background and the limited notation knowledge that I already have.

[jmcgann]

Hi Joe-

I wrote a short booklet on the subject which is out of print-if someone has a scanner and a little time I'd like to make it available as a free .pdf file to all- any volunteers to scan can email me...

[Tom C]

I recently started with the Susuki violin learning school books. They start with #1 and go to approx #16. They start with a select number of classical tunes. with each book, they introduce new ones and more complex versions of those in previous books. They show fingerings 1st time thru the tune then no fingerings. They are only about $6 a book. For bluegrass I would take the shortcuts of learning them by ear or tab.

[lkb3rd]

If you know how to do it at all, i'd suggest just doing it, however slowly and poorly. #
If you know your scales, for example if you know how to play in g or d etc, start off with tunes in those keys. # Once you know the key you're in, reading music is pretty logical in that each space and line = one note, and higher on the staff means higher on the scale. #Once you start doing it and get used to seeing it you'll start to recognize when its a scale note by note, or when it skips a note etc. #It's a lot like reading words in that you'll see stuff that you already recognize as a certain pattern rather than one note at a time.
Sorry that i'm not being more practical, but i guess i'm trying to offer encouragement that once you start doing it, it's a good system and will start to click.

[jmcgann]

Thanks to all who offered to help w/ scans, hopefully the updated version will be available for all soon. It will be a free download and although I'll still own the copyright, it will be available to all who are interested, so if you get it, pass it on. I'll post on the Café when it is ready.

[kudzugypsy]

i bet you know the answer to this - but learning to read music will really help you learn tunes much faster, and open up a few hundred years worth of great music to you as a benefit. if you are *transcribing* from standard to tab...why not just learn to read? it really isnt that hard - i learned this lesson from my way younger sister who started band in the 6th grade - didnt know anything about music, yet by that chrismas of the school year, with just 4 months in the band program, she was able to read most of my fiddle tune sheets!!!! slowly, yes, but she could do it! at that point i said, if she can do it, then i can do it!
the other benefit is being able to recognize patterns and motifs that you just cant see with numbers - that is how someone can scan a piece of music for a few minutes and just about play it fairly close - there are clues in the notation that you dont get otherwise. the *secret* (not really a secret) is in learning to recognize patterns - you have to *see* the whole measure and maybe the one after. most people get hung up cause they are trying to read note-note-note, etc and it doesnt sound right. you want to read it in chunks, looking for clues. usually there is a main theme that is only a bar long, and the rest of the tune is embellishing on that theme, once you understand that....

any of the older violin methods ( i just prefer the older methods from the last century, like Sevcik, Flesch, Auer, ) - they will give you everything you need. dont be fooled that they are usually thin in pages, when i was playing violin, i sayed in one 20 page book for a whole year!

go ahead - throw the training wheels away and RIDE

[jmcgann]

While we await the free scanned book, you might enjoy my (and others) opinions on why note reading is worth the trouble. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/tab.html)

[halfamind]

Wonderful page, John! Although the music at the end scared the hell out of me! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[gnelson651]

I learned to read notation in about two months, where I was comfortable enough to learn a song but not ready to truly sight read.

I used my daughter's beginning violin book, "Essential Elements for Strings," Violin, Book One. It runs about $8.00 and can be found at any music store, especially to those that cater to school orchestras and bands (rents instruments). This book is used by schools for beginning violin students and the violin fingerings are easily transposed to the mandolin fretboard.

Good luck.

[Joe F]

Thanks for the suggestions. #In the past, when I've approached the idea of learning to read notation, I figured I would memorize the fingering for notation in each key, so that seeing a dot on a particular line or space would cause my finger to go to a specific string and fret. #I know that's the ultimate goal of reading notation (a direct link between the eye and fingers, bypassing the brain), but such a memorization approach wouldn't be much different than reading tablature.

Another approach would be to learn the particular note involved. #My thought process currently goes something like this: "Let's see - there is a dot in the second space from the top. #FACE, so that would be a C, except we're in the key of D, so it's actually a C#. #The top string is E, and C# is 3 frets below that, so I play the 4th fret on the second string. #There." #Of course, by that time, the rest of the jam circle is twelve measures ahead of me.

I think lkd3rd has the right idea -- learning to recognize patterns and phrases, rather than individual notes. #Combining that with knowledge of the scale in the proper key should help to make it automatic with enough time and a lot of practice. I'm already at the point where I can get a new tune under my fingers after hearing it played through a couple of times, so maybe I need to learn how to "hear" a tune by reading the notation.

[kww]

I've read notation from the age of five, and don't read tablature for either harmonica or mandolin, even though it is popular for both instruments. When reading notation, you need to be able to associate the squiggle on the page with the note name, and then with a group of sounds, and then each of those sounds with multiple fingerings. Mandolins, saxophones, and harmonicas all have multiple ways to play each note, and you can't memorize just one way. You have to look at the note, know what sound you need to make, feel where your fingers (or lips) are, and choose the best way to make the sound based on where you are and looking ahead to where you are going to be.

As an example, I can make a B-flat below middle C on the saxophone with 1 finger, two fingers, or nine. If the note before it has 7 or 8 fingers down, I go for 9. If it has 1, I'll go for one or two, depending on what comes next. Even as a raw amateur on the mandolin, I can see that if you are playing a C on fret 5 of the G string, and the music has a D followed by another C, you probably want to play it 5-7-5 on the G string. If it goes D followed by an F, you probably want to play the D string open, and then go for fret 3 of the D string to make the F. If you are reading tab, someone else has already made all those decisions for you. If you are reading notation, you have to make those decisions for yourself.

People that can sight-read perfectly are rare. The trick is to get close enough the first time to get a feel of what it should sound like, and get it right by the second or third pass. Most music is repetitive enough that you get fifty or sixty passes at a phrase in one pass through the song.

The other trick is to respect the position in the music: if you screw up, don't try to go back. The song kept moving, everyone around you kept moving, you should just read along until you feel confident enough to start playing again.

[Martin Jonas]

I used to read tab only, and now can sightread standard notation fluently. Took me about four months or so, without any deliberate strategy other than just sitting down and doing it. The biggest boost came from joining a mandolin ensemble -- our repertoire folder is about 200 pieces, and as the new boy, every one of them was an exercise in cold sightreading to start with. This forces you to do precisely what kww was saying in the previous post: if you screw up, you can't go back and just have to read along until you find the right jump-off point to join again.

Martin

[jmcgann]

Martin makes a great point- if you are in a context where you HAVE to read, like an ensemble- you'll have built-in motivation to get it going. There's nothing like being responsible to others to light that fire under your derriére http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Joe F]

I have actually given that idea some serious consideration. #The Minnesota Mandolin Orchestra is always looking for new members, and in their flyer, one of the "10 reasons Why You Should Join the MMO" is #6, "Learn to Sight Read." #Right now, some personal issues (i.e. divorce in progress) keep me from making that kind of time commitment, but that should all be resolved in the next month or two.

[sbarnes]

there's a website called
www.musictheory.net
and yes it's about theory but also has flash cards, etc. for helping to read notation.....
check it out

[Hal Loflin]

jmcgann:

I would like to get a copy of your book mentioned above when it gets scanned and posted. Will you let us know through this thread?

THanks, Hal

[jmcgann]

Yes, it is in the (snail) mail to be scanned, and when it's been edited and reassembled (I'd imagine with 2 weeks) I will post it here, for all to distribute...I only ask that no money change hands, this is a freebie with the intent of reaching as many people as possible (so if someone uploads it to LimeWire or whatever, I don't mind!)

[luckylarue]

Ditto sbarnes. The note reading practice/games at musictheory.net helped me get off the ground for reading notation. Geat tool, imo.

[montgomeryi]

I found an old organ music book for beginners that has the notes on the staff and the notes themselves contain the note name. The book is copyright 1974. It'd be great if there were other books out there that still used this system.
The music looks something like this (E at the top of the treble clef):
--------
(E)
+-------
|
|

[Got8Strings]

Reading standard notation is definitely a useful skill.

Having said that, Carlo Aonzo said something at the workshop in Kalamazoo that I thought was pretty profound. He said (paraphrasing) "Don't let the printed sheet get between you and the music."

My interpretation of that was - learn the music by reading the notation, but don't let your expression of the music be limited by simply executing the dry mechanics on the page.

[tin ben dur]

The best book I have found is Basic Music Theory by Jonathan Harnum. How To Read, Write, And Understand Written Music. It keeps everything basic and has alot of info.

[Tbone]

Definately associate what note goes with what line/space on the staff. Every Good Boy Does Fine, FACE.

One thing that worked for me really well, was I started reading tunes I already knew - get a copy of the fiddlers fakebook, and start with really easy tunes you already know - old joe clark, etc. SInce you already know the tune, it really helps when you know the next note is a "g", then you try to read the actual note(EGBDF, one step from the f is a.....g!) realize it is a g, realize you were correct all along, all sorts of positive-reinforcement going on.

I started reading about 4 years ago, and am to the point I can pretty much get a tune up to about 75% speed in a night. Whereas it used to take me a whole nite just to get though it once.

Good luck! And, realize it takes TIME. DOn't get discouraged at first.

[jmcgann]

It's Here! Tab Reader's Guide To Standard Notation by John McGann. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/TabReadersGuideToStandard.pdf) 4.4 MB pdf file for printing, sharing, whatever...just don't charge $ for it. I hope it helps anyone on their quest for note knowledge!

[EdSherry]

On the back of the second edition of Pete Seeger's banjo instruction book was a wonderful quote:

"Can I read music? #Not enough to hurt my playing."

(There was also: #"Can I read notes? #Hell, there ain't no notes on a banjo -- you just play it!")

ANY form of written music (whether tab or otherwise) risks "freezing" music into a single set of what someone will claim are the "right" notes, when (IMHO) the essence of much good music (especially improvised music) involves internalizing what you're playing so that you're freed from the tyranny of the printed page. # #

(That said, imagine the cacophony that would result if the various members of a symphony orchestra decided to "improvise" rather than playing what's written!)

Also, there are a number of types of music (e.g., Scruggs-style banjo, ragtime guitar) where (IMHO) tab is preferable to standard notation, because it makes it clearer what you have to play and where on the neck to find it. #Tab is not inherently inferior to standard notation; lute tab has been around a long time.

That said, I strongly agree (a) that learning to read standard notation opens the doors to a wealth of music that has never been tabbed out, but which is available in standard notation, and (b) helps one "see" the shape of music (and, by implication, certain aspects of music theory) in ways that tab frequently does not.

John, thanks for making your material available. #Another useful source for learning to read standard notation is Pete Seeger's (unfortunately out-of-print) "Henscratches and Flyspecks," which builds on well-known folk melodies.

[Jim Roberts]

Thanks for the info John...now I have to refresh what was ingrained into my mind over thirty years ago when I was a saxaphone maniac!

Thanks for all you do for the mandolin community!

[Joe F]

Thanks, John! I look forward to digging into the material.

[jmcgann]

On the back of the second edition of Pete Seeger's banjo instruction book was a wonderful quote:

"Can I read music? #Not enough to hurt my playing."


Also attributed to Bill Monroe, Chet Atkins, etc. etc.

With respect to Pete as a folk music icon, if your musical world is about strumming a few chords and singing, then no, you don't need to read music. The "pithy" content is in the lyrics.

If you are gifted with an amazing musical ear, you don't need to read music. Hell, nobody NEEDS to read. Especially the "virtuosity-be-damned" crowd. Might fine music is made with one chord around the world, let alone three.

Many people prefer to Let The Mystery Be.

But reading can really help on many levels-not the least of which is gaining an understanding of the many possibilities of how notes and chords interact. Then as Charlie Parker said "forget all that and just play". IMHO your playing will probably be richer for it.


Tab is not inherently inferior to standard notation; lute tab has been around a long time.

I beg to differ. I think tab IS inferior as a communication tool. Tab tells you NOTHING about chord/melody relationship, it just gives you one possibility for where to play the notes. It doesn't tell you what the notes are, and once you do understand that knowing the notes allows you to be more creative in your note choices (because you understand what notes make up the given chord of the moment and how the melody notes are affected by that relationship) as a player- not as a "reciter of the written page", but as a potential interpreter who can personalize the music.

Also, nost tab readers have no concept of rhythmic notation, which again when understood can help clarify concepts of playing in time AWAY from the written page. To me, it's also about a broader understanding when NOT reading.

Anyway, all are equally welcome NOT to download the file and NOT to "hurt their playing" if that's how they feel. I want to make this available, for free, for anyone who is interested in doing it.

No notes were harmed in the production of this book #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

Not Enough To Hurt My Playing Either! (http://www.johnmcgann.com/tab.html)

Last disclaimer: The Ear is #1.

[EdSherry]

I think John McGann and I are more in agreement than disagreement. #We agree that learning to read standard notation opens up a world of material that is not available to those who only read tab. #And written notation often provides insights into how notes relate to one another (e.g., chord tones) that tab does not. # And we both agree that getting tied to the written page (whether notation OR tab) can get in the way of making music. #

But the number of classically-trained players -- often fine sight-readers of standard notation -- who cannot improvise, who cannot play without the music in front of them, and who do not know what the chord progressions of the tunes that they are playing are (because that's traditionally not shown on the sheet music they learned to read), never ceases to astonish me. #Learning standard notation ("play this note on your instrument now") and learning music theory are two different things.

I agree that tab only shows you "one place" to play a note -- but IMHO that's often an advantage, not a disadvantage, in contexts (e.g., ragtime guitar, melodic 5-string banjo, McReynolds-style mandolin cross-picking) where what you're playing either (a) cannot be executed unless you play it using a particular fingering or (b) sounds radically different (e.g., Reno-style banjo vs. melodic Keith style) depending on how you finger it. #That's why classical guitar notation has all of those additional markings (not the notes themselves, but above the staff) to show the fingering. #

I agree that tab often fails to convey timing issues, but that's a problem with poorly written tab, not with tab per se. #(John Burke's original clawhammer banjo book from the 1970s is a classic example of how NOT to write tab.) #No one would accept standard notation that does not convey timing; there is no reason to write tab that doesn't. #

But a lot of the music that I have been interested in playing simply was (and is) NOT available in standard notation. Try to find examples of Scruggs-style banjo, or melodic 5-string banjo, or McReynolds-style crosspicking, written out in standard notation. #I don't know of any sources. #(There was one effort many years ago, before Earl's banjo book came out, which was worse than useless, because of the very large number of mistakes.) #When I started playing fingerstyle guitar (lo, these many years ago), there were no transcriptions whatever of the stuff I wanted to learn.

For other types of music (e.g., Irish fiddle tunes), I fully agree that there is a wealth of material available in standard notation that is not available in tab, and learning to read standard notation is extremely helpful.

But if the choice is between tabbed out versions and no version at all, I know which I prefer. #Ideally, people would write out both.

John, I greatly appreciate your making your material available. #In hindsight, I wish I had learned to read earlier than I (belatedly) did. #If it came down to a choice between tab (only) and notation (only), I'd choose notation. #But fortunately, that's not the case.

[jmcgann]

Hi Ed-

I'd add that the reason classical players (who are often incredibly great sight readers) don't learn about improvisation has to do with the classical pedagogy- the lexicon/jargon of classical theory is very different from jazz pedagogy, so the intent of the education has to be taken into account. It seems to me that a well rounded player can read AND improvise- and it seems that more classical musicians (string players in particular) are opening up to "roots music" and other non-conservatory approved styles of music- which I think is a win-win for everyone.

Given a choice between no tab and tab, I'd take no tab- I learned to play by ear and would rather crack the code that way-EXCEPT in the case you cited- Jesse McReynolds playing would be pretty hard to crack without a head start- I got mine from Andy Statman's book, which is indeed all tab.

Also, as I am trying to learn pedal steel, an instrument where the same note can appear on the same string at 4 different frets (don't ask!) I do find tab is helpful.I hate it, though http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

[WJF]

As always ... thorough, well presented, brilliant work from John!!!!

This is great stuff that i will certainly use as I nudge my own students down the 'notation pathway to greater musical comprehension & enlightenment'. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

Thanks John!!!!

PS ... finally got my OM and am now tearing into your OM book. ...More amazing stuff to completely torment my fingers with!!! Thanks!! ( I think http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif )

[Joe F]

I can read tab fluently, but I regard it as simply a tool for learning a new tune quickly. #Once I have the basic melody under my fingers, my ear takes over from there. #I have also gotten fairly good at picking up new tunes by ear at the local old-time jams.

I also understand rhythm fairly well. #The tab I use and write out contains flags, beams, rests and other rhythm marks. #It looks a lot like notation, except for numbers where the dots should be. #I also use standard 5-line staff paper, using the four spaces for the tab numbers.

My goal in learning notation is to add that third leg to the musical stool. #I have many resources in notation (Fiddler's Fakebook, Portland Collection, etc.) and want to open that world to my playing. #And like several people here have said, it will help built my understanding of chords and relationships in music. #I have a very vague notion on how that works now, but I can't quite wrap my brain around it yet.

[gnelson651]

But the number of classically-trained players -- often fine sight-readers of standard notation -- who cannot improvise, who cannot play without the music in front of them, and who do not know what the chord progressions of the tunes that they are playing are (because that's traditionally not shown on the sheet music they learned to read), never ceases to astonish me. #Learning standard notation ("play this note on your instrument now") and learning music theory are two different things.
Sorry but this is a myth perpetuated by those who can't read music. The same can be said about tab trained players.

Classicaly-trained #musicians (CTM) practice arpeggios which are chord notes played individually. A good CTM player can tell you exactly what chord you're playing and in what key by simply watching your fingers, if your playing the same instrument, i.e violin CTM watching a fiddle player.


I'd add that the reason classical players (who are often incredibly great sight readers) don't learn about improvisation has to do with the classical pedagogy- the lexicon/jargon of classical theory is very different from jazz pedagogy, so the intent of the education has to be taken into account.

John is absolutely right about the difference in training. I've seen CTMs learn very quickly improvisation after being shown how its done. I've found that CTMs are masters of their instruments and know their scales and arpeggios with precision.

I know because I've watched my classically-trained 16 year old daughter improvise in our fiddle jams. She will watch another fiddle player and can tell me what key and what chord they are playing. BTW: She is this year's Nevada Old-time Fiddle Jr. Champion (she held her title for the second time).

[EdSherry]

I wish it WERE true, as Glenn says, that it is a "myth" that some (though by no means all!) classically-trained musicians can't improvise and don't know chord changes.

In my experience, many (not all!) CTMs are wedded to the idea that "I"m supposed to play what's on the paper" -- because that's their role in a classical context. # (In most classical contexts I'm familiar with, if you don't play the note that's written on the page, you're playing "the wrong note" #-- a concept that is largely foreign in a jazz- or folk-oriented context, where many alternative note choices can be "right"). #

As John says, it's largely a consequence of the traditional classical pedagogy, which does not focus on jazz theory or improvisation, though that's changing in some places (e.g., Berklee).

I agree with Glenn that CTMs generally CAN be taught to improvise, and that the years of playing scales and arpeggios comes to their aid. #But I've known lots of CTMs who never seem to be able to "make the leap" off the page. #Years of "if you're not playing the note that's on the page, you're playing the wrong note"-type
lessons can (unfortunately) drum the willingness to "gamble" -- a key element of improvisation -- out of people's attitudes toward music. #

I agree that good CTMs can tell you what key you're playing in, whether by looking at your fingering or by looking at the key signature (though in my experience many CTMs don't have a clue about modal music, like a lot of Irish and Scottish fiddle tunes, which do not fit neatly into the classical "major/minor" framework). #But that's a different issue than knowing what the chord progression is; I've had many CTMs look at me in puzzlement when I say "it's a simple 1-6-2-5 progression in Bb." #

I fully agree that many tab-trained players are even worse than CTMs when it comes to knowing their stuff. #

That said, I reiterate my basic point: #learning to read notation is a GOOD thing. #But as John says, "The Ear is #1."

[dj coffey]

I remember having a converation with my piano teacher decrying the fact that we lack much in the way of transcriptions for the world outside of classical music. #My gripe was that one couldn't get an accurate score for popular music - even when the piano was the featured instrument!

Perhaps the real complaint I should have had was - as proficient as I had become with classical music - I totally lacked (and still do) any ability to play piano by ear beyond playing the basic melody and simple chord progressions. #And I don't think my piano teacher (in spite of a music degree from Oberlin) #had this skill either!

I"m trying to overcome this limitation as I learn the mandolin. #I have found notation (when available) to be helpful to quickly build a repertoire of the basic tunes. #But I know I can't stop there....that only scratches the surface.

[mikeyes]

There is a distinct difference in the way that "by ear" and "by note" players learn and as a result there is a distinct difference in the way that they play the music. While this is a generalization with plenty of exceptions, classically trained musicians are taught from the beginning to play the music in front of them and to use technique not only to reproduce the note, but to reproduce it with great tone, timing, and in key (plus a lot of other qualities.) By Ear (BE) musicians learn to play by hearing the music first and then figuring out where the music is on the instrument. Usually BE musicians are self taught or have a mentor who pushes them to "play the music right" meaning with the acceptable interpretation and (usually) the same notes. As a result, BE musicians interpret the music as they learn it - this type of interpretation is a result of listening to others and "learning licks" as opposed to learning the music as written.

The result of this difference in training is that each has an entirely, at times mutually exclusive, view of the music even if the tune is then same. In the beginning BE players have to learn to discern the tune and then they sharpen their skills and learn how to interpret the tune and all of its subtleties according to the style they are developing. CTM learn to rely on the notation to tell them how to interpret it and there tends to be a uniformity (and a uniform set of expectations) in their playing which is great considering that is the purpose of the training. Classical music training is long, arduous, and strict with generally accepted goals of tone, musicianship, and a definition of genius (which admit is more "I know it when I see it, but everyone seems to know it when a musical prodigy comes along.)

BE training is more haphazard, more likely to involve individual experimentation, and equally long and arduous, at least at the master level. Mentoring is less available, except at the upper levels of skill when a player can listen to another master player and figure out what is going on.

For the BE player, techique is often a later addition to the playing. For the CMT player it is first and foremost.
So when the confluence of CMT and BE occurs, each has a specific mindset that they draw from. As the BE player learns to sight read the music (something that takes time and practice, and more practice) he/she hears the music in their head and automatically interprets how it should be played according tho their own idea of how music is played. When a CMT player sight reads (a skill long ago acquired) he/she has to learn to interpret the music in the style that is desired. Neither one is easy to do, and if the style to be played is foriegn to both, then there are adjustments that need to be made.

The skills brought to this scenario on both sides (and any other side you wish to cite) are helpful, but not complete. So it is not fair to compare a CMT musician playing from a folk fiddle book to someone who has already developed the style. If given a chance or (more likely) crossed trained in both traditions, a CMT musician can play the music and probably sound better because of better basic technique.

Benny Goodman is a good example. He was classically trained on the clarinet as a child, but decided to play jazz at an early age (which was typical of the era.) Later on in his life he made a classical album (the Weber clarinet concerto, I think) and he did a credible job although he has a tendency to "swing" the music. You can't get away from roots, but it often doesn't matter if you are as good a musician and he was.

So each side has genuine impediments having to do with early learning and how the brain perceives the music. The twain can meet, and often do, but it takes a lot of work. The deeper you are into your music, the more work you need to develop the other side. But the good part is that what you bring to the music is very valuable and will help, if you can allow it to do so. It will require a big shift in your brain and an expansion of what you consider music to be on an unconscious level.

You can't take the country out of the boy, but you can make him comfortable in the city.

[jmcgann]

I like the best of both worlds.

[mikeyes]

John,

I do too. Ever since I started playing Irish music, my reading skills (15 years of trumpet) had to make a comeback. I can sight read again, but this time I hear the ornaments and the lilt when I look at a manuscript.

I think that the only caveat that I have is the possibility of turning out "homogenized" Irish, BG, OT, jazz, etc. players if they all go through the same rigorous training (including learning to read music) and are not allowed to listen to their own voice and the interpretations of any musicians other than the chosen few. While discipline, technique, and good mentoring are essential if a player wants to be an elite musician, developing a personal style is just as important. If you can't be recognized by your playing alone, you are just another clone and no matter how talented or skillful you are, you will not be remembered.

I saw this last year in a session in Dingle (at John Benny's, well worth it) when a gaggle of U. Limerick Irish music students came in and played everything at Warp 8 with no feel. This is not an indictment of these kinds of programs, I suspect that these students, none of whom were Irish, were just showing off their chops and had not evolved into individuals yet. They were very good musicians and knew a lot of tunes, but left the very well respected Irish musicians a little bemused. They did acknowledge this after several of the "old timers" (All Ireland champions, legends on the Accordion, etc) did a little mentoring and slowed the students down while making the music richer and the students a little more appreciative. (Not that the students had never heard the music played well by their teachers, far from it, but I don't think that up to that point the students had heard the music as music in context before.)

Once a musician can get all the elements together (style, disclipline, hearing the music, etc.) the music will take on a life of its own.

[JimD]

Why is it that any time there is a discussion of note reading, somebody feels obliged to say "classically trained musicians can't improvise"? #The statement may have been true 35 years ago but really isn't anymore. Here are some things to think about.

-- Most players of medieval through baroque music are expected to improvise.

-- Many organists (and others) improvise in forms such as fugue and sonata.

-- Some pieces written in the late 20th century and in the present century either require improvisation or have optional improvised sections.

-- Many players will improvise their own cadenzas to concerti.

I could give examples of each of these.

This, of course, doesn't consider the many CMTs (myself included) who also play other genres of music and improvise in those styles.

Let's not perpetuate outmoded ideas.

I would have responded to this sooner but I was teaching a workshop this week in which my students read notes, played by ear AND improvised.

[gnelson651]

Why is it that any time there is a discussion of note reading, somebody feels obliged to say "classically trained musicians can't improvise"? #The statement may have been true 35 years ago but really isn't anymore. Here are some things to think about.

-- Most players of medieval through baroque music are expected to improvise.

-- Many organists (and others) improvise in forms such as fugue and sonata.

-- Some pieces written in the late 20th century and in the present century either require improvisation or have optional improvised sections.

-- Many players will improvise their own cadenzas to concerti.

I could give examples of each of these.

This, of course, doesn't consider the many CMTs (myself included) who also play other genres of music and improvise in those styles.

Let's not perpetuate outmoded ideas.

I would have responded to this sooner but I was teaching a workshop this week in which my students read notes, played by ear AND improvised.
Thanks Jim,

The same point I was trying to make with its a "myth perpetuated by those who can't read music."

The implication of this statement is that if you learn to read music, you can't improvise. Which is far from the truth.

I've found that many musicians can't improvise including tab readers and ear players. Its a skill that takes time to acquire.

For example, in our OT fiddle jams we have an ear player in our group that plays LOUD and BAD. I hate sitting next to him because his timing is off and will throw me off as well. If he doesn't know the song, he'll saw on the A string regardless of what chord is played. He's been play fiddle for about 30+ years.

And in the BG jams I attend, we have a a mandolinist who is just starting to learn about chords after 50+ years of playing, strictly by ear. Also we have a tab reader who solos with a string of licks. When I first heard him play I was impressed he could pull off a break. But then I realized after a couple of breaks, all he was doing was stringing licks that was a facsimile of the melody.

[mikeyes]

Before this develops into a flame war, the original purpose of this thread was to find a few good methods for a BE player to learn how to read notation. With one exception all of the respondents supported the effort by giving some hints and ideas. Only one person questioned the ability of formally trained musicians to improvise, which is only one of the skill sets that BE players have. The rest suggested that learning both skills is helpful, especially if you are wanting to play various styles of music that combine both such as Irish or Klezmer (emphasis mine,but implied)

Before this argument gets to the point of ad hominem, maybe we should set a few definitions. Here is my attempt:

Classically Trained Musicians (CMT) - Persons who are formally trained, usually to the university level or beyond, mostly in Classical music, but can include Jazz and other styles, with the purpose of becoming a professional in performance or teaching. A formal pedagogy including reading notation, sight reading, music theory, etc. must be present.

By Ear Musicians (BE - if I put BEM down, it would be Bug Eyed Monsters) - Persons who learn to play music primarily by listening to others play. Teachers of these musicians emphasize listening while immersed in the culture of the tune or at least in the history of the style. Players are urged to develop a style that is compatible or close to the mentor's style. This mentoringdoes not have to be one to one but may be from a distance via records, concerts, books and observation.

Formally Trained Musicians (FMT) - A category to include those who have been trained at some point in the formalities of music, I.e. learning how to read notation, developing some skill on an instrument via a formal method, but not to the level of a CTM. Most people in this category stop learning beyond High School according to an article in NPR today.

Mixed Trained Musicians (MTM) - Those of us who took piano at the request of our parents and played Rock and Roll for fun (insert BG, Klezmer, OT, Folk, etc.) on the side. The majority are musicians who persisted beyond the age of 13 in one form or the other.

These groups tend to be self selecting. You can make a case that CTM are better musicians as a group as opposed to any of the other groups, but each group tends to have distinguishing characteristics and all have a love and respect for music. Members of the various groupings will also gravitate towards certain styles and types of music although there is a lot of cross-over. More formal training in all aspects of music is occuring nowadays because it is more efficient to teach the basic techniques that way and there are a lot of advantages to learning music in a formal setting. (Traditional Irish musicians tend to have some formal training, the whistle is taught in all Irish schools.)

Hence the original question: "How can I learn to read music by notation?"

If someone really wanted to find out if "Classically Trained Musicians can't improvise" it shouldn't be that hard to set up an experiment using these (or your own) definitions. Citing individual experiences as proof of the hypothesis is fallacious, in both directions. Real proof lies in the statistics. I suspect that if you went to Juillard, IU, Berklee, or Eastman you would find a lot of CMTs who can improvise and love to play styles of music other than those they study. But someone has to do the work.

Banjosessions (http://www.banjosessions.com)

[JimD]

Before this develops into a flame war, the original purpose of this thread was to find a few good methods for a BE player to learn how to read notation. #With one exception all of the respondents supported the effort by giving some hints and ideas. #Only one person questioned the ability of formally trained musicians to improvise, which is only one of the skill sets that BE players have. #The rest suggested that learning both skills is helpful, especially if you are wanting to play various styles of music that combine both such as Irish or Klezmer (emphasis mine,but implied)

Before this argument gets to the point of ad hominem...

Really now -- I don't think we are anywhere near that point.


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif


Just trying to keep misconceptions out of the discussion.

[gnelson651]

Before this develops into a flame war, the original purpose of this thread was to find a few good methods for a BE player to learn how to read notation. #With one exception all of the respondents supported the effort by giving some hints and ideas. #Only one person questioned the ability of formally trained musicians to improvise, which is only one of the skill sets that BE players have. #The rest suggested that learning both skills is helpful, especially if you are wanting to play various styles of music that combine both such as Irish or Klezmer (emphasis mine,but implied)

Before this argument gets to the point of ad hominem...

Really now -- I don't think we are anywhere near that point.


http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif


Just trying to keep misconceptions out of the discussion.
I agree, this had yet to develop into a flame war. It is an honest discussion of differing opinions regarding learning music and the limitations of those styles of learning. We all have our opinions and it makes for an interesting agrument.

Of course it is fallacious to use with antidotal evidence. The point is that there are examples on both sides to support an opinion.

And like any conversation, it has taking a different track. So what? Some find it an interesting topic of discussion.

[jmcgann]

I doubt there is a flame war brewing here- civilized people can disagree without insulting each other.

Jim D-it has been my experience that more than a few musicians I have met who have learned mainly classical music freely admit they have no idea how to improvise anything including cadenzas, accompaniment or what have you. Some of these have been students, some fellow players on gigs. Some of them could not play a note without a piece of paper in front of them. I don't believe it is a myth, but an unfortunate stereotype of the "sweeping statement" variety. I believe things are changing in education, and that conservatories are broadening their scope somewhat. It isn't a judgement, just a personal observation (and maybe luck of the draw on my part). I certainly believe you when you say things are changing, since you are on the front lines at Boston Conservatory and I know you can play many styles and improvise fluently.

[mikeyes]

OK, OK, my "flame war" remark was over the top and I apologize for it. I think I have been reading too many political blogs lately, they always become acrimonious. And, I should have used an emoticom when I wrote that statement http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif My bad.

In fact, this has been a very informative and civilized dialogue, even if some of you are totally wrong and your mother wears army boots http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif (note the emoticom)

I do have a question about the training of classical musicians and improvisation, however. Correct me if I am wrong, but are there more competent classical musicians out there than there are jobs? And is there any interest among the classical faculty of the various schools to encourage students to look in other directions and give the students more job possibilities by taking courses such as improvisation (which are offered by the jazz faculty, I assume?)

What are the conservatories doing about broadening the experience of their students?

[jmcgann]

are there more competent classical musicians out there than there are jobs?

I'm not an expert on the classical world, but I have crossed my big toe into it a little, and have a sense of how the water felt (to me, so this is IMHO ONLY). It is very very competitive in the world of symphony musicians, where the high profile, pay, benefits and conditions are really good. There was an interesting article in the Boston Globe recently about the competetion for the few opening chairs at the BSO. I'm am quite sure many, if not most of the people who didn't get the gig are world class players in their own right.

As far as solo careers strictly on the concert stage...it seems pretty tough to say the least.

But I think good classical musicians can create their own market, as can any musician, by performing "accessible" repertoire at weddings, functions, community concerts, etc.

Now, without wanting to be too much of a snob, it seems to me that as far as "jobs" for someone who aspires to a fulltime performing career- the simpler the music, the more work that's available, because there are more paying customers who understand it. The "GB" (General Business) world of playing weddings, parties and functions can be pretty lucrative- but you won't be playing the Berg Violin Concerto, most likely. It's a big more like Classic Hits, Motown Dance, Ethnic Favorites, Swing etc. And/or you are replaced by a DJ. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

In the jazz world, it's much the same- the high profile gigs are very competitive, and I'd say it's a given that one is an incredible virtuoso...unless the nature of the music is more "jazz marketing" than actual jazz music, in which case, it might be a bit like the rock world- you'd be better off at the gym and the fashion designer's and dance teacher than the practice room http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif

I haven't forced myself to make a living strictly by performing, so I've been able to focus on playing music I actually care about playing, which is a luxury that I don't take for granted. I spent a few months in a GB/Disco band when I got out of college; my first taste of the music business. I quit after a few months, started a bluegrass band, and drifted into happy obscurity http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[ApK]

I just took a fiddle lesson from Gene Lowinger (http://www.banjoben.com/gene%20lowinger.htm) yesterday. He's a CTM and plays classical violin music, and he was also a Bluegrass Boy with Bill Monroe. As a fiddle teacher, he focuses on Bluegrass and teaches from his Bluegrass Fiddle book. He wants his students to be able to read music, simply because that's the written language of music. He can show you how to play tune or an excersise, but it might take a while for you to figure it out, and then you might not remember it correctly. If he can write it down in standard notation, then you can take it home at refer to it at a glance.
He also made the point that when he's learning a new classical piece he might put in "four sweaty hours a day" trying to get under his fingers. That suggests to me that perhaps it's not that classical musicians are rendered unable to improvise, it's just that many don't choose to learn those skills because they are busy enough learning the classical repertoire.

ApK

[Joe F]

As the originator of this thread, I've enjoyed reading the discussions, even though they may be drifting a bit off-topic. #CMTs, BEs and all the rest may approach things differently, but everyone shares a common goal of making music.

I've started taking my first few steps towards reading notation, based on ideas in John McGann's publication (Many thanks again, John). #I took a sheet of staff paper, drew a bunch of random dots, and now I'm going through it, saying each note and playing it (all in the "white keys" key of C). #While I find this fairly straightforward for the notes on the staff (EGBDF and FACE), I find I have to stop and count spaces and lines for notes above and below the staff.

Is there a better way to approach this? #I'm thinking maybe I should start only with notes one space above and below (D and G), then gradually add in notes further away.

In the mean time, I think my ear is steadily improving. #At a jam this weekend, the weird tunes started coming out after about 3 hours -- TV theme songs, etc. #I found that if I knew the song, I could play it, even though I'd never played it on a mandolin before.

Regarding competitiveness in classical music, the book "Classical Music for Dummies" has a very good chapter on the grueling audition process for major symphony orchestras.

[ApK]

#While I find this fairly straightforward for the notes on the staff (EGBDF and FACE), I find I have to stop and count spaces and lines for notes above and below the staff.

Is there a better way to approach this? #I'm thinking maybe I should start only with notes one space above and below (D and G), then gradually add in notes further away.
Here's how I'm trying to learn it on a fiddle, though I've not been doing it long enough to tell you how effective it is:

I have a fiddle tune book that has the standard notation above the tab, and another book that has only standard notation, but puts a number above each note telling me what finger to use as a hint. By looking at both standard notation and the other hint (tab or finger hint) I'm hoping to eventually autmatically be able to associate a certain note on the staff with the correct fingering on the instrument. This won't help me learn what notes they are by name, but it should help me learn to play the instrument from standard notation.
To learn the notes themselves, my teacher just pointed me to the note trainer on this site:

http://musictheory.net/

ApK

[dj coffey]

Some memory aids from back in the days of piano lessons:

Lines on the treble clef: Every Good Boy Does Fine
Spaces on the treble clef spell out the word "FACE"

That part's easy...the challenge is to go from dot on score to string and fret. When you get good at it, you won't even need to think the name of the note ...you'll go directly to the string and fret.
You go from See it/Say it to See it/Say it/Play it, finally to See it/Play it.

People who learn to type go through the same process. By the time you're a good typist, you don't even think about where the letter is on the keyboard - words and sentences just automatically flow from your fingers.

[jmcgann]

I find I have to stop and count spaces and lines for notes above and below the staff.

Is there a better way to approach this? I'm thinking maybe I should start only with notes one space above and below (D and G), then gradually add in notes further away.


There's only a few that go below on the mando, D C B A G. Look at the g triad- G (space below 2 ledger lines) B (below 1st ledger line) and D (space below last line of staff). That's that. Then A and C- on the lines (you can add the E on the bottom line of the staff to get the Am triad.

Just learn 'em. If you focus for 10 minutes, you'll have them. Then the next day they'll be easier, then the next day add random sharps and flats...before long you'll be sight reading The Rite of Spring http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

For above the staff, same type of thing- maybe do an E minor triad E G B from the E between the two top lines- then A and C. You can worry about the really high stuff later http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif