Why do mandolin players

[garyblanchard]

I have noticed that quite often the banjo is the subject of, I think for the most part, good-natured put-down. As a guy who plays the banjo as well as the mandolin (and other instruments) I am curious about this. What are the causes of this?

[Strado Len]

The banjo is too darn loud!

Seriously, mandolin (and guitar) players sometimes like to play softly, and a banjo player who is unwilling or unable to adjust his volume downward, can make playing dynamically impossible.

[jlb]

Probably because Skruggs-style playing is usually obnoxiously loud.

[garyblanchard]

I can see how this could cause hard feelings.

I play without picks in a style that resembles clawhammer, so I tend not to be as loud. I brought my cookie-tin banjo to an old-time festival and had several people tell me I wasn't loud enough. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

I guess I'd not encountered the volume problems as I am not involved in Bluegrass music. I can see where the banjo (and maybe even the guitar) could overwhelm the mandolin. I also guess some banjo players haven't learned to play softly.

[handpicked]

Conversely, a truly experienced and gifted banjo player is a joy to play with...that drive is hard to replace with any other instrument...I think it is the less experienced banjo players (who haven't got the concept of dynamic control of their right-hand rolls) that are so frustrating to play with and give the banjo a bad rap.

[Tom C]

It's not just mandolin players that put down banj*s, it all players. Oh yeah except drummers.

[doanepoole]

I play without picks in a style that resembles clawhammer

I find it is very rare for a clawhammer or otherwise "pickless" banjo player to recieve criticism for paying too loud. That style of banjo picking fits right in with the dynamics of mandolin and guitar.

I find its not uncommon for fiddle players to have trouble adjusting their volume downwards as well, though certainly not as common as with Skruggs-style pickers.

...but then there are all the banjo jokes that probably eminate from one single source, the movie "Deliverance" which made the banjo sound infamous with all kinds of backwoods misperceptions.

Oh yeah, and guitar players take their fair share of insults, as well.

[mrbook]

Q: How can you tell a banjo player is at your front door?
A: He can't find the key, the knocking speeds up, and he doesn't know when to come in.

Seriously, though, these jokes are sometimes justified by actual experiences. It may be because the banjo is louder, or simply because the banjo gets more attention in a bluegrass band. Rumor has it that Bill Monroe was a little jealous of the attention Earl Scruggs was getting on the Opry. Everybody knows what a banjo is, but people still ask the mandolin player what instrument he is playing. Plus, everyone in a band thinks they are the ones that can't be heard.

I started out as the mandolin player in the band, but also play banjo, guitar, and dobro when needed. Good banjo players (and me) try to back off so others can be heard in the band, but not everyone does that.

It might also be because banjos and banjo players are easy targets.

[dasspunk]

I wish more folks would put down the banjo... put it down and walk away...

[Bob DeVellis]

Let's be honest. One of the best claims someone can make for a mandolin is that it's as loud or louder than a banjo. So it seems to be less about "too loud" than it is about "louder than me." On the other hand, insensitive banjo playing, because it's loud and percussive, can really mess everybody else up. It's difficult to ignore a banjo player's rhythm and, if it's off, it can be tough to establish a correct rhythm behind it. But I think the ribbing is mostly good natured. I remember one guitar player referring as "mandolin" as Italian for "little sissy guitar." But again, it was all friendly ribbing with no hard feelings. Of all the instruments I've ever fooled with, I'd have to say that banjo is the one where I never had trouble hearing myself -- a mixed blessing in my case.

[Flowerpot]

Yep, 90% of the problem is loudness.

The other 10% is just the twangy, intense, piercing tone that is associated with it -- and which adds the drive and irreplacable edge to the bluegrass ensemble sound -- but which by itself is intolerable to many people. How many mandolin players, if they could choose one intrument to accompany them, would choose the banjo? It would be dead last on my list, somewhere behind washboard. Banjo is the cayenne pepper of musical instruments -- it adds bite where it's needed, but it can cover up some more of the subtle flavors if overdone, and who could eat it by the bowl?

[doanepoole]

Just to add to my earlier point that none of this really applies to the clawhammer style, a clawhammer sounds lovely on its own, the groove really sounds like a one man band, and I think clawhammer/mando, clawhammer/guitar, and clawhammer/fiddle duets all can sound very rich and pleasant.

[John Flynn]

First off, I think that most banjo-bashing is just having some dark-humored fun. Right or wrong, it's human nature that every group needs someone to pick on and every music community seems to have an instrument that gets picked on the most. In symphony string sections, it's the viola players, in rock bands, it's the drummers and in bluegrass and old-time, it's banjo players.

Also, though, part of the complaint is real. Banjo players in bluegrass are generally too loud and don't seem to have any sense of the impact that has on the overall group sound. But volume is not my main complaint about banjos, since I mostly play with open-back clawhammer players.

I have two main complaints. 1) Banjos seem to need to retune constantly and they limit everyone else on what key they can play in. Plus, they tend to be out of tune a lot even in the key they are in. Really good banjo players seem to be more flexible and well tuned. Players below that level often can't seem to get it.

2) More so than people who play other instruments, beginning and even intermediate banjo players don't seem to get the conept of what thier role is in the music and how to hang back until they can fill that role. When I can't play a melody on the mando, I play chords. If I can't do the full rhythm, I will do single strums. If I can't do that, I lay back and pick out what I can. I jam with a lot of banjo players can't do anything in between A) Laying out altogether, while looking left out and hurt, and B) Playing full force even though they don't know the tune. I find that annoying.

BTW, I just quit a band over conflicts with banjo players. The new group I am in has a stand-up bass, a guitar, a fiddle and me on mando. One of the founding priciples of our new group is: No instruments that need to retune!

[garyblanchard]

This is fascinating as I am, for the present, a solo performer. I hope to put together a string band once I move to New England so I will keep these things in mind as I put the group together.

By the way, I am a big fan of banjo jokes. One of my favorites is:

What has 50 legs and 22 teeth?
A banjo workshop. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Atlanta Mando Mike]

Whats the differance between a lawn mower and a banjo
you can tune a lawnmower. Truthfully I love the Banjo-friend of mine once told me it is impossible to play a sad song on a banjo. Even soungs about murdering your wife and drinking yourself to death just seem to come off happy. Go figure.

[doanepoole]

Q: What's the difference between a banjo and a vacuum cleaner?

A: The location of the dirtbag.

[MANDOLINMYSTER]

Because we can http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[duuuude]

Because they can't spell "bass"? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Mandoglen]

Many , many years ago , I both built & played banjos and mandolins . While showing my wares at Winfield , Ks one year , I experienced 15 seconds of fame . Doc Watson came by my booth , picked up a banjo , played for a moment , made a sour face , said "Too loud" , put it down and walked away . I have pretty much stayed with the tiny guitars ever since . #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[garyblanchard]

All of this reminds me of my days in rock bands back in the 60's. If you couldn't hear the lead guitar, he turned up the amp. Then the singer would turn up the PA. This would lead to the drummer playing louder which would cause the bass player to turn up his amp. The cycle just kept going. No one ever turned anything down.

How do you turn down a banjo player?

Tell him you didn't order the pizza. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[doanepoole]

How do you turn down a banjo player?

One thing you can count on with banjo players is, as the evening progresses, they will get too drunk to play anymore.

I try and encourage this behavior.

[jim simpson]

I play in a group with one of the best banjo players. His timing, dynamics, inventiveness is just great. I have found that the best banjo players seem to be passionate about the music and usually have lots of energy. I find that I learn a lot by listening to banjo players. I could never get that right hand rolling thing going though. I guess I have been exposed to enough bad players too to appreciate a good player.

[Clyde Clevenger]

I play with two great banjo players. I love the banjo and believe that it just aint Bluegrass without the banjo. But, really, they choose to play the banjo, so they deserve the abuse.

[Greenmando]

Ask yourself...

Do you play banjo when you are alone?
Have you played banjo first thing in the morning?
Are there banjos in your family history?
Do you tell yourself you can stop playing any time you want to?
Do you stay up late sometimes just to play more banjo?
Do you envision yourself as a "tasteful" banjo player?
Do you sometimes think you need a louder banjo?
If you answered yes to one or more of these questions, you should join us at B.A.
The first step is to admit you are a banjo player! Give us a call... We will send several ex-banjo players to your home for intervention. They will discuss the joys of living banjo-free. It CAN be done! Your loved ones will thank you. People will stop avoiding you. The world will be a better place.

To quote Dave Cavanagh: "I knew I'd hit rock bottom when I started associating with accordion players."

BANJO PLAYERS ANONYMOUS (http://doodoowah.com/BanjoPlayersAnon.htm)

[jlb]

Do you play banjo when you are alone?
Have you played banjo first thing in the morning?
Are there banjos in your family history?
Do you tell yourself you can stop playing any time you want to?
Do you stay up late sometimes just to play more banjo?
Do you envision yourself as a "tasteful" banjo player?
Do you sometimes think you need a louder banjo?

You scared me, Greenmando. I thought this was a medical questionaire for inbreeding.

[garyblanchard]

As an addictions counselor I get a kick out of the Banjo Players Anonymous stuff. Just thought I'd pass this on though. I was told by BA that my mandolin playing was a sign of switching addictions and that I would would soon be experiencing MAS. Such rot! Well, I better get off of here and play my new, second mandolin. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Yonkle]

I love this quote from Banjo Anonomous
"I knew I'd hit rock bottom when I started associating with accordion players."

[Fred_Murtz]

OK, I'll admit it - I like banjos. Just like any other instrument you've got beginners, intermediate, and advanced players - and we all prefer playing with the advanced players - no matter what the instrument.

Having said that,

Did you hear about the bluegrass band that locked their keys in the car? It took them 45 minutes to get the banjo player out.

[garyblanchard]

OK, I'll admit it - I like banjos. #Just like any other instrument you've got beginners, intermediate, and advanced players - and we all prefer playing with the advanced players - no matter what the instrument. #

Having said that,

Did you hear about the bluegrass band that locked their keys in the car? #It took them 45 minutes to get the banjo player out.
I resent that!!!!!

It only took 20 minutes to get me out! #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[John Flynn]

OK, so a mando player goes into a curio shop that deals in beautiful miniature figurines. He fixes his eye on a figurine of a rat. Although he has no interest in rats, he finds himself strangely attracted to it. He asks the proprieter how much it costs. The shop keeper says, "It is $100 if you want me to tell you the story behind it and only $20 without the story."

The mando player says, "I don't need the story, just the rat."

The shop keeper says, "OK, but you'll be back for the story."

The mando player starts down the street with his new purchase. Soon, he starts to notice rats are following him. First one, then two, then dozens. Startled, he starts to run. The rats chase after him, thier ranks swelling to the hundreds. Thinking quickly, he heads for the river. At the levy, he pulls the rat figurine out of his pocket and hurls it into the river. Soon, thousands of rats rush by him. They follow the figurine into the river, where all of them ultimately drown.

Shaken, the mando player makes his way back to the curio shop. As he walks in the door, the shop keeper says, " I told you so! I knew you would be back for the story!"

"The heck with your story," says the mando player, "I want to buy that banjo player figurine in the window!"

[jbrwky]

I can't hear a banjo without thinking about Ned Beatty. None of the therapy has worked. I haven't been back to Dahlonaga since Ranger School. It's tha tuel of tha Divil.