monroe and hendrix

[danielpatrick]

I was just thinking about this the other day. I know it will probably seem weird to some but.....as I was listening to Bill Monroe and Doc Watson coming home from work I realized why I really love Bill Monroe's playing. Besides the fact that he was an innovator of a style of mando playing and all of the usual stuff people say about him, he also always just goes for it. In that sense he reminds me a lot of jimi hendrix. What some people consider to be "sloppy" playing I look at with admiration. Neither seems content in just playing the same old licks, or sticking in the same boring positons, they both just played what they felt. Sure sometimes they may fall short of what they were searching for, but when the hit it, it is absolutely magic.

[tin ben dur]

You have just laid some knowledge down. Let me ponder on that a day or two. I may even run that past a couple of other fellars I know.

I saw Bill Monroe play the Star Spangled Banner with a drumstick on his Loar one time... then again, it might have been the drugs. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[250sc]

danielpatrick,

I'd have to agree with your observations. As far as my favorite mandolin players go Mr. Monroe isn't near the top for me but without his input I don't think american mandolin would have evolved into what it is.

They were both inovators and set the stage for many of those who followed.

[mandolooter]

hey I tend to agree with you as far as playing from the heart. I never seen Bill live but did see Hendrix...sometimes I think its the chances ya take, that take you where your mind/heart is going...heck I crash and burn a lot, but when it comes together I sound like a million times better than ever. It took me a long time (or a lot of beers) to get the courage to just leave those comfortable Tabbed notes behind and head out on my own but my best playing by far happens then. Of course my best playing is still very mediocre at best...lol http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Santiago]

Genius comes in many forms. To me, the key to Mr. Hendrix's work is his Native American heritage which can be heard in the beat for songs like Voodoo Chile. If that puts him in the country melting pot, he's not that far away from ol' Bill afterall. But I don't think Bill caught too many of his shows, nor he Bill's.

[AlanN]

Hey, they both mangled their instruments...

[jmcgann]

Jimmy Page was also "sloppy" and brilliant. "Clean" isn't everything! :cool:

[chuck.naill]

"Clean" isn't everything! :cool:

Thanks, its important to be reminded of this.

chuck

[JEStanek]

These fellas get all the respect in the world from me... asside from what may have been implied by the Photoshop.

Both mastered their genre!

Jamie

[Santiago]

Please don't try this with your Loar. A banjo, maybe.

[acousticphd]

Another pioneer who had a similar influence, and a LOT of similar licks...

[fishdawg40]

"Clean" isn't everything! :cool:
I had a mandolin teacher that said the same of the Dawg. #I can't hear it. #I may not be that "advanced" as a listener. #However, his music inspires me and so forth, that is what is important...

I enjoy golf but I don't like Tiger Woods' swing because he #is as close to being technically "perfect" as one could get. #I like to see, for lack of a better word, humanity in a golf swing, and Tiger just doesn't have that. #Yeah he is the "best" at winning tournaments, but his vehicle is not inspirational (to me). #

I like when I can see the reflection of the human condition in art (isn't that what art is?). #And there is a lot of "imperfections" in the human typing in front of this computer right now. #Technically "perfect" players (including some hot mando dudes out there these days...) just don't do it for me.

Long live Jerry Garcia...

[acousticphd]

woops ... this one:

[James P]

Who hums Paganini?

They were both inspired players. #But I think Monroe's fantastic songwriting will guarantee him a level of (relative) immortality that imo Hendrix won't achieve. #Had he lived past the age of 27, then who knows? Licks don't last.

[an uncalloused fingertip]

"But I think Monroe's fantastic songwriting will guarantee him a level of (relative) immortality that imo Hendrix won't achieve."

Fellow picker, I hope you are kidding with us. I prefer acoustic music too, but to say that Monroe's songwriting will outlast Jimi's stuff is almost beyond belief. Jimi's singing was SMoooooooooooooooooth and easy #and natural - and he had a more expressive instrument to boot. I love the mandolin, but there is so much more one can do on a guitar - even with an old Willy Nelson beat-up axe with a big hole eroded into the instrument. And he was only twenty-seven when he passed. Before his death he was beginning to experiment with styles of music that you would not have associated with Jimi's rock and blues vein. There is no way that Bill Monroe will be better remembered than Jimi. He was the very first modern guitar hero.

[fishdawg40]

an uncalloused fingertip; "But I think Monroe's fantastic songwriting will guarantee him a level of (relative) immortality that imo Hendrix won't achieve."

James P; But I think Monroe's fantastic songwriting will guarantee him a level of (relative) immortality that imo Hendrix won't achieve. #Had he lived past the age of 27, then who knows? #Licks don't last.

I'm glad this conversation isn't debating who's "better" rather who's more popular (Hendrix in my opinion)

However, James P, I think you should revisit Hendrix for he was much more than licks. #And Uncalloused finger tips a guitar more is expressive than a mandolin? #You are banned!!! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[James P]

Re-reading that , I see that I wrote "imo" and "I think" in the same sentence. #
My bad. # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[ira]

i'm glad this is a clear opinion thing and not one of those silly-i'm right your wrong judging opinion as fact.as far as creativity, longevity of music and popularity. well, for bluegrassers- bm was the man, he was a pioneer. hendrix certainly took guitar to new places, but numerous folks have as well. i do believe in the overall picture hendrix will be remembered as his tunes are still on the radio consistently, though in the acoustic/country/bg/folk world- monroe will be too. both forever, though by different folks for different reasons.

as for guitar as a more expressive instrument- can't buy that. the mando can make people jump and and smile with some quick pickin and weep with a tremolo. guitar, especially electric guitar with effects, does offer more tonal and sonic possibilities however.
just my 30 cents (and of course you should take it as fact!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif )

[Perry]

some may call it sloppy....I call it a little "grease"....
and a little grease ain't a bad thing

[Lee Callicutt]

and a little grease ain't a bad thing
Absolutely! This is something that I've spent a fair amount of time explaining to younger people who scoff at Hendrix for playing sloppy and "out of tune," etc. Aside from the mistake of comparing relatively ancient live production values with modern, seemingly flawless "lip-synch" productions, what they fail to see is the absolute sonic genius of a player like Hendrix, Page, Monroe, et al, to make "music" out of dissonance and imperfection.

I also think that when it comes to musical icons, cross-pollination is a deciding factor in their influence and lasting legacy. Look at Elvis. Hendrix was essentially a black kid who grew up mastering the blues inside out as he worked his way through the chitlin circuit, while he had his worshipful eye on Bob Dylan (same with the Beatles BTW) all the time. Mind "expansion" and the American Indian influence were just icing on the Hendrix cake.

I honestly don't know enough about Monroe to speak about his cross-pollination influences, but I suspect they're there.

Lee

[Fretbear]

"The Mandolin Cafe"- the only place on the planet this topic is being discussed....(that could be a good thing...)
Jimmi & Bill; they both knew what they had to do...nobody else was going to do it....

[Brady Smith]

Who's Jimmy Hendrix?

[ira]

same is true with all great players who make a difference
look at j garcia- influenced by rock, jugband, bluegrass (his leads are very often similar to a banjo approach) trad. folk and his dad was a musician as well- jazz and popular for the time, and he grew up with a spanish background. additionally took tons of risks which sometimes worked and sometimes didn't , but when on-wow!
jorma is similar in respect to the confluence of genres in his background.

look at grisman and what he plays or sam bush for that matter who is all over the place and through blending what he has experienced has led to incredible new places for the mando.

[Vincent]

Who remembers when Bill has all the city boys in his band and he was enjoying their youthful energy (and his new fans)? He even made the cover.

[Fretbear]

"Now if a six, turned out to be "no part a nothin'.....

[AlanN]

"Now if a six, turned out to be "no part a nothin'.....
Good one.

"Foxy Lady...of the Blueridge Mountains"

[Mandomax]

"Castles made of... Big Sandy River"

[AlanN]

"Crosstown Traffic...Heavy Traffic Ahead"

[fishdawg40]

"There's a red house over yonder that's where...[the] poor wayfaring stranger...stay"

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[AlanN]

"And The Wind...That Shakes The Barley"

[floyd floar]

Come hither to go yonder Spainish castles

[Perry]

"Crosstown Traffic Ahead"

"RedShack"

[Santiago]

"I'll meet you on God's Golden Shore, Don't be late."

[Kevin Briggs]

Or..."Let me stand next to your...little Georgia Rose"

Hey, this is a cool thread. I like the point above regarding imperfect playing and how it's so sweet. We can also mention Bob Dylan in this, but in regards to his voice. I know all the jokes about his frog's croak these days, and what not, but anyone who has really listened to that man sing, oh man. It's certainly imperfect, but the phrases are perfectly real, and they often break through to something beyond the words, something musical, in that the words could be any words, but the phrasing actually delivers the message.

Dylan got me into acoustic music, and his early 90s CDs ultimately led me to Doc Watson, which led me to bluegrass. I am one of those who has closely read, debated and listened to all of his CDs (a brief skim over some 80s stuff, admittedly), and often found that I loved songs before I even knew what he was singing about. I listened to something like "Chimes of Freedom" for a year or two before I actually linked the song together into some kind of fantastic, whole meaning. It's the deceltively simple music, and, yes, it's the singing that really hooks the song.

Think about it, who would care about the words "How does it fell to be on your own/With no direction home/Like a complete unknown/Like a rolling stone," if they weren't sung by a young, impassioned, unsophistocated sounding, established songwriter who was basically melodically yelling out the words. I often think of Willaim Hurt doing those corny commercials. What if Dylan had put one of those melodies to his words. Everyone would have passed, and they would have passed quickly.

I think it was John Coltrane who complemented Dylan's singing when he said (paraphrased), [His singing] proves to us how great he really is, and how mediocre we inevitably are.

Anyway, the point is, the imprefections are th reality of life. That's why I have a hard time getting into Grisman, especially his work in Old and In the Way. That's one of my favorite groups ever, with Vassar sawing away his beautifully powerful, yet ocassionally flat notes, and Garcia just scrambling all over the place. Grisman, however, is too clean. He's too perfect. To me, it's the mandolin equivalent of listening to one of those singers from American Idol. There's no heart.

Now, on the other hand, I've learned lots of licks and things from Grisman's music, so I'm thankful for that. Plus, he's got most people convinced that he's the man, so he's really helping promote the music I love. That's, in my opinion, his best quality. He's like a new Ralph Rinzler, but a new Ralph Rinzler who can play some clean mandolin.

[Fretbear]

"Little Wing-Tip Shoe"

[Kevin Briggs]

Wake up Darlin' Corey and go get me my...machine gun.

[Fretbear]

"The Wind Cries Bessie"

[Kevin Briggs]

Jimi Hendrix and his bluegrass boys

or

The Bill Monroe Experience

[Keith Erickson]

Jimmy Page was also "sloppy" and brilliant. "Clean" isn't everything! :cool:
John,

Totally true!!! Personally I felt that Jimmy Page's style of playing guitar was a lot like Bill Monroe's style of playing the mandolin.

I could be wrong but this is how my ear has picked this up.

[farmerjones]

. . scewz me while i kiss the sky, from my little cabin home on the hill. . . .

Only on the Caf'e http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

-a mondolin won't make you deaf before you're thirty.

[floyd floar]

Yonder stands Dolly Dagger, with a dram glass in her hand.

[James P]

Hey, Pen.
(Where you goin' with that fiddle in your hand.) http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Guitar Jeremy]

Jimi is the reason I play guitar.

Bill is the reason I play mandolin.

As for who will be better remembered, unfortunately, we will be long gone before that debate gets close to settled. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/blues.gif

[jim simpson]

I used to spell my 1st name Jimi when I was back in school.

[danielpatrick]

Wow, I didn't realize so many people would get into this thread. This is awesome!!!!!!

[fishdawg40]

Uncle Pen, where you goin' with that gun in your hand?....

[Ignatius]

We can also mention Bob Dylan in this, but in regards to his voice. I know all the jokes about his frog's croak these days, and what not, but anyone who has really listened to that man sing, oh man. [snip] I think it was John Coltrane who complemented Dylan's singing when he said (paraphrased), [His singing] proves to us how great he really is, and how mediocre we inevitably are.
I can't speak for the Coltrane comment, but I do know that John Lennon in the mid-'60s said Dylan's voice was more important to his music than the lyrics themselves. Lennon loved Dylan's voice, and I bet he would have liked it even more now. Dylan's latest studio album, "Love & Theft," has become one of my favorites of all time. I just can't get enough of that voice: he packs more emotional wallop and interesting phrasing than just about anyone in the business today. And he is beginning to write fascinatingly simple music.

As far as Grisman: too clean?!? Wow. He just oozes soul and depth to me. I listen to him the way I do to Dylan.

For me, the debate between perfection and depth is not the right approach here. I hear a category that applies equally well to either. in both Dylan and Grisman's work, I hear musicians who can make even a single note speak volumes. They both become the most interesting when they do the least in their performance. It takes real genius to make a single note live and breathe, and Dylan, Grisman, and Monroe have that (I just don't know Hendrix well enough to comment on him, although "Hey Joe" and "The Wind Cries Mary" are good examples of what I'm talking about, too). Grisman's melody line in his version of "The Christmas Song" could almost bring you to tears, and it takes genius to transform a song as simple and overworked as that.

[Kevin Briggs]

I agree that Grisman's slower, simplified stuff is his superior work. I just haven't gotten into him, for whatever reason. For example, that "Home Is Where the Heart Is" CD is really canned music. It's so pitch perfect and almost like mandolin acrobatics, instead of just playing. I will admit that the first DGQ CD is more pleasing to listen, for me, but even that seems more about trying to make some different music than just making music, if you know what I mean.

That said, I know I won't garner any support bashing Grisman on the cafe here. Although, I certainly haven't made much of a connection between his and Dylan's art. That's just how it speaks to me though, and I know mine aren't the only ears. I knwo Grisman's a maverick, in many ways, and he is a great figurehead for mandolin playing. Maybe he just plays so well I can't quite get a grip on it. It's likely the shortcoming is all mine. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Paul Kotapish]

Interesting thread, and an intertesting comparison. Of course Bill Monroe has been compared with influential African-American guitar gods before in James Rooney's wonderful book, Bossmen, where Rooney traces parallel patterns in the lives and music of Monroe and Muddy Waters. A great read. You can find it at some hipper local music stores and at amazon.com. (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0306804271/102-0902163-2807339?v=glance&n=283155)

http://ec3.images-amazon.com/images/P/0306804271.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

[Ignatius]

Kevin--

I didn't mean to back you into a potentially dangerous corner there regarding Grisman. He has a lot of people watching his back here! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

I agree that there is something to the ears listening as there is to the hands playing, so mileage may vary in viewing and comparing musicians. But for what it's worth, I do want to emphasize that it isn't to me about speed or not, complex or not, or technique or not. It is more to do with how one relates to the work. In a sense, it is that way that some musicians (or writers or artists or teachers or preachers or sheep-shearers) seem to get out of the way and let the music (or words or paint or lesson or scripture or sheep) speak for itself--and in the process, speak themselves as well.

If you figure out how to teach that, I'll sign up for lessons right away. Name the price!

[Fretbear]

I'll say it right out loud...his music does not "ooze soul"...that is it's major drawback. His self-conscious noodling on Tony Rice's "Manzanita" were the only notes on the entire project that were in any way out of place.
Now back to regularly scheduled programming:
"Red Neck"

[fishdawg40]

I'll say it right out loud...his music does not "ooze soul"...that is it's major drawback. His self-conscious noodling on Tony Rice's "Manzanita" were the only notes on the entire project that were in any way out of place.
Now back to regularly scheduled programming:
"Red Neck"
That self conscious noodling brought and continues to bring in a lot of top notch musicians to many of his projects and IMO, it is the most soulful of music.. #

We are now treading towards dangerous ground which had been covered many times over on the cafe (search Thile, and break out the popcorn). #Music is personal and their are no facts of soul or no soul. #Its all a matter of tast, pure and simple. #I find it insane that some people cannot appreciate jazz. #But I know it just doesn't do it for them; it ain't their bag...

[Paul Kotapish]

I agree, Fishdawg, that pronouncements about heart and soul in a particular player's music are likely to be unproductive and potentially hurtful to those who disagree.

Fans who think that the singing of Destiny's Child is the epitome of soul will probably never get the soul in the singing of Hazel Dickens or Bill Monroe--and vice versa. Who is the more soulful guitarist--Jerry Garcia or Larry Carlton? Was Paganini a more passionate fiddler than Tommy Jarrell or Tommy Peoples? I know who speaks to me and to my soul and heart, but I have friends who would make the opposite choice.

I like to think that anyone who is taking the time and trouble to make music is offering some modicum of heart and soul, and that there is always some audience out there somewhere who will recognize it and be grateful for it. Denying the validity of that response is an insult to the muse in all her quirky permutations.

[jmcgann]

(Fretbear @ May 25 2006, 20:23)
I'll say it right out loud...his music does not "ooze soul"...that is it's major drawback. His self-conscious noodling on Tony Rice's "Manzanita" were the only notes on the entire project that were in any way out of place.
Now back to regularly scheduled programming:
"Red Neck"

Yeah, sure. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif His break on "Blackberry Blossom" is pure noodleroni, right? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif

[mandocrucian]

Pick your....
a) argument
b) feud
c) desired "Namesake Series" recording (as in the movie Spinal Tap )

Bill Monroe - David Munrow
Rudy Cipolla - John Cipollina
David Grisman - David Grissom - David Gilmour
The Isaacs - Chris Isaak
Doyle Lawson & Quicksilver - Quicksilver Messenger Service

Mac Wiseman - Mac Rebbenack
Louis Jordan - Sass Jordon - Dexter Gordon
Mike Seeger - Pete Seeger - Bob Seger
Compton - Clapton
Roland White - Roland Kirk

Marty Stuart - Rod Stewart - Slam Stewart - Stuart Duncan
Emmylou Harris - Wynonie Harris - Don Sugarcane Harris - Haris Alexiou
Major Franklin - Captain Beefheart - Commander Cody - General Humbert
Sonny Osborne - Sonny Rollins - Sonny Boy Williamson (I) - Sonny Boy Williamson (II) - Sonny Bono
Barney Kessel - Barney (TV)

<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'> "I see a bad moon a rising...."</span>

[8STRINGR]

I Like Tim O'Brien's rendition of Hendrix "Hey Joe" found on Jerry Douglas' "Slide Rule" CD, since we're discussing Hendrix and Bluegrass. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[8STRINGR]

Also, "Shenandoah Breakdown" is on Douglas' "Slide Rule" CD, since we're also dicussing about Mr. Monroe. I guess the two (Monroe and Hendrix) were destined to have both their songs from different music genders on the same project. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif # http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/coffee.gif

[Gerry Tenney]

A great discussion, My two bits: Picking up on acousticphd's suggestion,
another comparison should be with Monroe and Chuck Berry. There playing styles arer similar and they both were great inovators , taking the music of their day and finding something new,while being true to its roots. I don't think Chuck Berry gets enough credit for his role in Rock and Roll, with most of the credit going to Elvis.
In a way Frank Wakefield is more the Hendricks of mandolin playing, and of doing unusual things to ones instrument!
Let me second my buddy Paul Kotapish's suggestion about the Monroe, Muddy Waters book.
Still workin' on Rawhide after all these years,
Gerry Tenney

[Cullowheekid]

Hey Josephine,where you going with that poker in your hand.