Kay Bass Question (no mando content)

[MikeVB]

Found an old Kay bass in a music store here in town. It is really beat up with edges broken off at the ribs in several places. The store owner has a new unfinished fingerboard, nut, bridge, and sound posts for it as it was missing these pieces. The finish is also horrid in that it appears that someone tried to sunburst this thing at one point. I say someone cause I don't think I've ever seen another bass with that finish and figured some dope did it.

I looked up the model (C-1) and serial number on the net and found it's a 1966. According to where I looked it up these things usually sell for $1200-2000 depending on condition and refinishing/repairs don't affect the value. Owner said he's asking $500 but make him an offer.

I always wanted an upright bass and having some interest in lutherie (built a Stew-Mac mando kit) I figured I might be able to put it back together.

If I could get it for substantially under what he's asking would this be a worthwhile purchase and project? Anyone else ever do this with an old Kay?

[Tailspin]

What a total freaking conincidence. I just bought an old K bass (C-1) model from a friend of mine who just bought a music store here in chicago. Broken edges and nicks and dings. Top looks like plywood. I just wanted to learn how to play one so that I could stand in at Jams. It looks like the neck was broken of or replaced or something. It has a weird looking glue job where the neck meets the body and a bolt going in from the back. I dont know anything about Bases but I thought that If It plays it would be good enough for me. I paid 200 for it. I dont know if I got a deal or not. It needs a bridge and strings. It looks like strings are about 100 dollars and bridge about 60. So I guess it just has to be worth it to you. You can buy some chinese bases on ebay for about 500 with strings and all. I would be really interested how you plan to mend the chiped edges. I was just going to sand them smooth and stain them. I was planning on leaving the original finish and just cleaning it up. Seems, for BG music, a beat up looking bass is cool.

[steve in tampa]

Try asking your question here:

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=44

You can get a new Englehardt for under 2k. I got one about 2 months ago, and really like it. Played electric bass before, and this is a lot more work, but a lot more fun.

[woodwiz]

I've seen a number of bluegrass basses that have just been bondoed and painted, when they got to looking too rough. Leave the lacquer underneath the paint, and it can always be stripped later if you want. In places that where wood is missing and vulnerable to damage, it's pretty easy to glue on a piece of fresh wood and carve it to fit. It looks a lot tougher to do than it actually is.

[Stephen Perry]

Fingerboard will be fun. Have a nice sharp jack plane?

The Kay is just OK. You can get a solid top Eastman for under $2000. Much nicer.

[violmando]

Personally, if you want to do it and you can do it yourself, ANY Kay is well worth $500--MORE worth it than an Engelhart if you ask me or any modern inexpensive laminate bass. BUT only if you can do it yourself and want the fun.
And yes, I am a bassist and a school Orch. teacher, so I know how much wear and tear one of those Kays will take. See if you can get some real vintage parts if you can...Yvonne

[chuck.naill]

[/QUOTE]The Kay is just OK. You can get a solid top Eastman for under $2000. Much nicer.[QUOTE]

That sounds a little biased. Would you have one for sale? Kay and King set the standard for BG. IF they are just OK they have been that way for many icons of old time and BG.

Here is a good info source, http://www.kaybass.com/. I have a 1941 Kay Bass that I got when I was in HS in '71 for $175. If it is playable at all, $500 would be a fair price. You will also own a peice of history. There are people paying $1500 for them is this area.

chuck

[J. Mark Lane]

Chuck, I think you're on to something there. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif


I've always wanted one of those old Kay basses. Lots of great players have plunked away on them behind some historic bands. My wife would kill me if I brought one home...otherwise....

[Gerry Cassidy]

Hi,

Kay basses are 'Right of Passage' instruments. Just about every life long URB musician has, or should have owned a Kay, or two, or three...

In my career, they have never had less than moderate demand in the market. They are a great instrument that would be a good addition to any collection.

Are you gonna see one first chair in your local symphony, probably not. But, go to enough Jazz jams and you are bound to catch some great player walking some serious dog on one.

[Stephen Perry]

The laminate basses I see all too regularly are soft. Tops rather flexible. The sound is big, woofy, feels good, doesn't really carry very well. They're horrible to work on and seem to mostly be degrading at this point. Delamination away from the edges, very difficult to deal with. Not that they can't be driven, can't sound OK. But the response seems very slow on most of them, and flabby. Usually when I hear them they'd be mud except for being miked really close.

At NAMM last time I looked the only plywood bass I liked was the Shen. And all the solid tops had more kick and carrying power. Of course, they took a bit different approach to make them work according the guy I was walking around with. One thing I noticed in trying the various basses was that many of the plywood ones feel boomy and big next to me when I pluck them, but die off with distance in the noisy NAMM environment. The tighter carved basses didn't get that woommphhh boom, but rather a more focused attack. They carried further. Now this was with the basses played by a non-BG pretty dang strong player.

Regardless of sound, I keep seeing the same problems with the old plywood ones. Same as the plywood cello. Once delamination sets in, there's a death spiral. They get softer and softer. There are even articles on complex rebracing systems to save the poor old things.

Certainly if one can do the work oneself they are probably viable. But paying someone to fix one up, then paying again to fix it up again when things deteriorate more seems a poor use of cash. Unless there's some fabulous way of getting the plywood to rebond in the top when it starts to go. I had one in that I could wiggle around like cardboard when the soundpost was out. At least the post fit well - the top was so soft it would deform to an approximate fit!

So yup, I'm baised against old plywood basses with lots of miles and a checkered past. I hate seeing them come in. I don't know whether I'm supposed to be a miracle worker or a coroner.

[Jim Hilburn]

Maybe Mike Bub would be interested in one of those Eastmans.

[chuck.naill]

Mike Bub Said:


I still have that Kay bass. I gig with it regularly and even used it on the new Auldridge, Bennett and Gaudreau CD. It's a "well-loved" 1939 Kay C1 with nicks, dings, repaired cracks, and lots of character, but to my ears, it's the best Kay I've ever heard, and its a beauty to look at.

Here is a good recommendation for a Kay bass from someone who knows. Thanks for the reminder Jim H.

chuck

[Stephen Perry]

I think this is probably like the mandolins and violins thing. A good deal of stratification in what people expect to hear, feel, etc. Tending to get characterized as "good" and "bad" but with people disagreeing on which is which.

I still can't stand the soggy ply basses. Ones that aren't soggy probably do fine, but I've not seen one in a long time. All the ones I see are pretty faded out.

[MikeVB]

Appreciate all the responses. The bass is not playable right now as it has no fingerboard, nut, bridge, or soundpost currently installed. The store owner does have new replacement parts for each of these, however, they are unfinished.

Because it needs a good bit of work I thought an offer of $200 cash would be a good start on my end, especially since I can't play it in order to hear it or feel it.

Do you think just sanding the finish down a little and then maybe painting it like dark tobacco brown or even black would be resalable or not?

Mr. Giavanni Violins - is there a way to determine if the laminations are letting go w/o being strung up or anything?

[FlawLaw]

Kay's are really the bluegrass standard bass. I think that the plywood basses have a nice percussive sound to them and are nice. I think even in bad shape, it would be worth trying to save. Go here http://www.urbbob.com/ and you should find a wealth of information and a fine bass player who has a great love affair with his Kay. Good luck.

[Stephen Perry]

Just like surveying a laminate boat - tap with a soft head (e.g., rubber) mallet and listen for the dead spots. Between the F holes really dead on some that have been in here, many seem fairly distorted in that area. The fix I've seen pictures of involves building an intersecting set of braces to hold the top in shape and give sufficient rigidity.

I grab the top between the F holes and flex a bit to see how it feels. Usually they come in strung up with the top distorted. The soundpost area stands as a sharp peak and the bridge foot near it is quite depressed. That area then sounds dead without post or bridge. I suspect some kind of injection therapy might work. Otherwise, I'd tend to want a reinforcing patch on the inside. Maybe there's one there already! Lot of them have probably been put in.


I wouldnt' see any problem with using thin epoxy to get the edges to hold together, bondo to replace missing chunks, and then krylon from K Mart (Kay Mart?) to do a sunburst or whatever. The finishes weren't anything to write home about and most have seen better days by now. Might be salable. I see people who have bought all kinds of interesting things on a regular basis, things I wouldn't have bought or tried to talk me into fixing!

And do watch the neck block. I've seen them split on the Kay's. A pain.

Incidently, it is Gianna Violins, after Gianna, who seems to have alreay gone to bed. She's in training for a Lance Armstrong cancer challenge of some kind, attempting to get donations for cancer. Riding her bike lots.

Good nite all!

This sounds like a project I would have purchased a few years back. then I started asking myself questions like... if this is so easy why didn't the current owner just do it himself? Before you jump do some research. You might find that bass for a little more money but a lot less work and you'll have a playable instrument faster.

[Adam Tracksler]

My wife has told me (after buying the VW bus..) that if you want something toplay on (or in) right now, dont buy a project. If you want something that you can play in a year or so...then go for it. $200 sounds fair, especially if you have a bunch of work to do. Sounds like a fun project. I have been building my bass for @6 months now...I'm almost finished carving the scroll....

[MikeVB]

Well, I'd also considered trying to just build a plywood bass from scratch.

Is that doable or would it be prohibitively difficult or expensive trying to laminate up a top and back in my home "shop" (aka the playroom bathroom)?

[Mark Normand]

I bought a $200 old ply bass a guy drug around for awhile, he played rockabilly so the string height was extrememly high. It has that giant bolt like Tailspin mentions above. Is that non-original? I screwed around sanding the bridge feet trying to get the strings lowered. I'm not sure if he sanded the fretboard, but there is a definite turn upward in the neck that won't let me lower they strings anymore, they will hit the lower end of the fretboard before I get them low enough. Being there's no adjustment rod in the neck, how to straighten this? I don't mind do work myself, sorta using it as a learning project.
Oh and I repainted it with brown spray paint, worked fine, the previous fire engine red was a bit much ! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif
Its fun having it around the house, I wanted to teach my daughter the basic chords, maybe we could all jam, but so far preppy 15yr old will not touch it! eeeuuuww http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Tailspin]

Actualy mNORMANd, I just assumed the bolt thing in back was not original. It actualy might be. It just has some kind of puty on it that looks like someone tried to cover it up. Maybe you can plain the neck strait. I think I would try. What have you got to loose?

[JD Cowles]

wow. my buddy just gave me a pile of stuff that used to be an old high school orchestra bass. its a kay for sure but how do i look up the serial #? the neck is broken off and to my dismay there is a carriage bolt lookin thing in there. the rest of the parts are there and there is another neck. i think i might take it to a local luthier and get an estimate as it's free to me so far. i thought it could handle it as a learning project, but its beyond my means right now.

[oldwave maker]

Started playing urb a quarter century ago, now down to just 3 kays ('42,'49,'55), the Birkedahl solid, the cutaway ply framus elvez tribute, and the custom turbo below. Had solid eastmans, solid old germans, kays from the 30's to the 60's. Plucked plywood booms. Solid wood has clarity and focus. I'll stick with boom for the unplugged music I play, and will nearly always buy that $200 kay in pieces in the hopes that elvez can someday retire.
If you need a very time consuming project in order to neglect your family more, that kay sounds like just the ticket!
If you're looking for unplugged boom, talk to slaphappy Mark Rubin at violins etc in austin (he stocks some fine mandos also), if you're looking for plugged in, get thee to a junkyard:

[chuck.naill]

Mike,

Here is a resource that works on these instruments on a daily basis. He is repairing two presently for area orchestras. You might give him a call.

Jonathan Goldstein S.I.R
The String Workshop/Oak Ridge, Tennessee
1-877-291-8668

Chuck

[sbarnes]

there was a pre wwII kay bass advertised in the classified section of my hometown paper today......
listed for $4500

[MikeVB]

Bought the old Kay bass discussed above. Driving up to my favorite luthier (i.e., the only one within 100 miles) in the morning to get him to cut and set the soundpost and give me some advice on repairs I plan to do myself.

Speaking of bondo - never used it, but I take it it's a lot better than using wood putty?

Also, someone mentioned looking for vintage parts - any suggestions as to where to look?

Thanks to all - I'll post some photos in near future if anyone's interested.