Italian mandolas, mandolcellos, liutos

[Graham McDonald]

My research into the history of the mandolin is taking me down some interesting byways. I can find no infomation on the scale lengths that Italian makers like Calace and Embergher were using on tenor and octave mandolas, mandocellos and liutos at the end of the 19th century, and figured one or more of the experts here would know this stuff or at least where to find it. Any offers?

cheers

graham

[vkioulaphides]

Well, I know that Calace's present-day mandocelli have a scale of 61 cm. I would suppose that these specs have come down to the 21st-century shop from waaaaaaay back. I have heard (but cannot substantiate) that Embergher's mandocelli were a bit shorter in scale, something like 60 cm. Low-end, mass-producer Musikalia claims their own mandocelli clock at 58 cm. (!) which only makes me wonder how they prevent their strings —especially the low Cs!— from being awfully flaccid and wobbly. Perhaps very, VERY thick strings? I don't know first-hand...

Several contributors to these threads may have a recent Calace catalogue handy, and could tell you specifically what the shop's specs for CGDA mandolas is. To my knowledge, the Calace shop makes no octave-mandolas.

I am sure that better information than what I have provided (shooting from the hip, as it were) will be coming soon.

Cheers,

Victor

P.S. Ehm, Graham... *diabolical snicker*... are you actually considering building a mandocello? Pray, tell...

[Jim Garber]

This is culled from the Calace price list:


Mandolins: (vibrant string cm.33,5 tuning E, A, D, G)
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type 24 : palisander round bottom 25 ribs, fine fir armonic flat, palisander fingerboard with 24 frets under E, covered machinehead, tortoise pick-plate, tortoise arm-guide.

type 26 : the some of n. 24 but with pearl decorated pick-plate with floral motif.

type 13 : extra palisander round bottom with 25 ribs, very fine fir armonic flat, ebony fingerboard with 24 freets under E, fingerboard with mother of pearl at frets 3,5,7,10,12 e 15, covered machine-heads, pearl decorated pick-plate and head with fine floral motif - tortoise arm-guide.

type 15 : the some of n. 13 but with different decorated head and pick-plate.

type 16 bis: cuirasse from palisander channelled round bottom 33 ribs - ebony and pearl fingerboard (as. n. 13) with 24 frets - covered machine-head - iris and carnation decorated pick-plate and head.

type Classico D - White maple channelled round bottom 33 ribs - oval soundinghole - open head with lateral machine-head - extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 29 frets under E - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

type Classico C - cuirasse from palisander channelled round bottom 33 ribs - - oval soundinghole - covered machine head - extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 29 frets under E - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

type Classico B - White maple round bottom 31 ribs - oval soundinghole - covered machine head - extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 29 frets under E - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

type Classico A - White maple channelled round bottom 33 ribs - oval soundinghole - engraved neck with inside machine-head - extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 29 frets under E - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

Mandolas: (vibrant strings cm.43,5 - tuning in G or in C )
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the types are the some of the mandolins one - On demand it is possible to have long vibrant strings cm.46 - The model Classico C, B and A have fingerboard with 24 frets.

Mandoloncellos: (vibrant strings cm.61 - tuning A, D, G, C.)
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type Classico B: White maple or palisander round bottom 25 ribs - medium size, very confortable to play - oval soundinghole - open head with lateral machine-head - extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 27 frets under A - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

type Classico A: White maple channelled round bottom 36 ribs - big size, high level sound - oval soundinghole - engraved neck with inside machine-head - extra fir armonic flat - concert fingerboard with 27 frets under A - tortoise pick-plate and arm-guide

Liuti cantabili:
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the type are the some of mandoloncello's one, but with 10 strings tuned E,A,D,G,C. - Only the type Classico A have a different design of the body to have 15 frets out of body.


Jim

[Jim Garber]

On Alex's excellent site, Embergher.com (http://www.embergher.com), there is mention of existence of other mandolin family instruments but no mention that I could find of the scale length:

Besides the mandolin the Embergher atelier manufactured all other instruments of the Mandolin family like the terzino, mandola, mandoloncello, liuto cantabile and the mandolbasso. Also of great importance was Luigi Embergher's creation of a quartet that consisted completely of plectrum played instruments. The first quartet named 'Quartetto a Plettro Sistema Embergher' consisted of, as is learned from catalogues, advertisements and editorial writings in mandolin magazines of the time, two mandolins, a mandoliola and a luito cantabile. The liuto cantabile is a 5 course instrument tuned C - G - d - a - e' and in fact a mandoloncello with an extra highest course tuned to the same pitch as the mandola's first course. Indeed two instruments in one.

Perhaps Alex will chime in here.

Jim

[vkioulaphides]

Hmm... first time I notice: Calace seems to claim that the very same instruments (i.e. mandolas), with the very same scale length, can be for either CGDA or GDAE (octave) tuning. While, of course, this is entirely possible (with lighter/heavier strings respectively), I would also think that the octave-instrument *should* have longer scale for optimal sound. Hmm...

[Embergher]

Hmm... first time I notice: Calace seems to claim that the very same instruments (i.e. mandolas), with the very same scale length, can be for either CGDA or GDAE (octave) tuning. While, of course, this is entirely possible (with lighter/heavier strings respectively), I would also think that the octave-instrument *should* have longer scale for optimal sound. Hmm...
Yes, you're right Victor ... I entirely agree:

43,5cm is quite large for an Alt-mandola (mandoliola, CGDA), and it is rather small for a Tenor-mandola (GDAE).
The normal Embergher scale lengths for Mandoliola (CGDA) and mandola (GDAE) are 40,5cm and 48cm.
(there are 43cm violas, but most viola players don't like them at all because they're really big animals)

Dogal makes Tenor (octave) mandola strings for three scale lengths: 43-45-48
d'Addario and some other American brands make quite heavy (alt and octave) mandola strings, of which the octave strings would probably be suitable for use on a Calace mandola, but there's no way the alt strings can be used on a Calace mandola. Most are even too heavy for an Embergher alt.

[Jonathan]

My Japanese-made Calace-style mandola has a 44 cm vibrating length. This makes for a pretty heavy, thunky G string without a lot of bottom end - but the upside is that the shorter scale length allows chords and double stops that would be impossible on a larger instrument. The mandola parts of Munier in particular seem to have been written with this scale length in mind, and some of his double stops are a stretch even so. Thomastik mandola strings are designed for a 45cm mensure, so for my instrument the "stark" or heavy strings work better. Now that the mandolin players in my quartet have switched to Dogal, I plan to try a set soon.
I also have a Vega bowlback alto mandola with a 38cm scale.

Jonathan

[margora]

43.5 for an alto mandola is slightly longer than 17 inches, which is quite common for modern flat or carved back instruments -- such as the Weber I play, which has a 17 inch scale.

[Embergher]

43.5 for an alto mandola is slightly longer than 17 inches, which is quite common for modern flat or carved back instruments -- such as the Weber I play, which has a 17 inch scale.
I just had a look on this #"Weber" website (http://www.soundtoearth.com/instruments_mandolas.htm) (click on "specs").
They also talk about 14" mandolin scales and 22" octave mandola scales.
This may be common for American instruments, but compared to classical Italian standards it is huge!

[margora]

"This may be common for American instruments, but compared to classical Italian standards it is huge!"

Yes, indeed, although not a problem for most American repertoire, although it can be a problem in certain Calace preludes. Sort of like, in the classical guitar world, your basic Ramirez 1A of the Segovia era, with its very long scale.

[Graham McDonald]

Thank you all for that. It is most useful. Out here on the far side of the world, it can be hard to find actual examples of things to measure.

I'm not really thinking about making a bowlback mandocello, though I have built several guitar bodied mandocello/liuto type instruments, more for celtic music than classical.

Several of the contributors to this section of the Cafe have been most generous with their knowledge over the past year or so as I have been accumulating mandolin info. I am working on a mandolin building manual, which will cover a basic flat back/front instrument, a carved Gibson/L&H type and a bent-top bowlback (which is going to be interesting, as I have never built one, but there is so little information published I thought I should give it a go). Perhaps even a carved-top flat-back celtic style as well

The mandolin history stuff is planned to be the introductory chapter, but I am 5000 words into it, at around 1900 and haven't got to America yet. It is getting bigger than I thought Once the history chapter is done, it will go up on the website for comment and I will probably be looking for some good quality photos for the eventual publication.

Thanks again

graham