Gibson F4-Thinning it down ?

[mandojimmy]

I have a 1920 Gibson F4 which I would love to use as my main mandolin as I adore the overall F4 look/charisma etc but I feel it is a bit overbuilt. I have played several modern A and F models which seem to ooze overtones which the F4 doesn't and whilst there is one viewpoint of cranking up the action on the F4 to give more volume and get the top moving, I think it may be risky on the top and neck. Has anyone any experience of perhaps thinning down parts of a 1920s F4 either in the neck/ headstock area or the sides or back . The wood basically doesn't move enough and the sound is coming to a large degree from the strings, bridge, and nut. Would be interested in any thoughts/experience on this.

[John Flynn]

I have no experience with thinning. However, I have heard of some methods for driving the top better, including setting up the bridge base so it leans back about 8 degrees toward the tailpiece, using an ivory bridge saddle and using heavier strings. I am not an expert here, so I would seek advice from some luthiers who have tried these methods.

[jlb]

I can't help you with your query, but thought I'd throw in that if you alter your F-4 in such a manner, it will most likely significantly reduce its value, if that is a consideration for you.

[Big Joe]

While that may seem like a good project, it will destroy the value of the instrument. F4 mandolins are getting up there in value and you could probably sell it and buy a mandolin with the sound you prefer. I doubt seriously if you can do enough work to an F4 to get it to sound like an F hole mandolin. That is why the F hole mandolin was designed and is so popular today. The F4 has a cool sound all its own and many of us love that sound...though we would not get rid of our Fhole mandolin for it.

It's your mandolin and I guess you can do what you want with it, but I would really discourage making ANY alterations to that wonderful mandolin.

[jlb]

Joe makes a good point. In the larger context of the mandolin world, an F-4 style will just sound alot different than an F-5 style. They are designed for different sounds, and maybe you just don't prefer the F-4 sound.

Believe me, there are lots of people out there (though a minority) who find the oval-hole sound superior, so a good option would be to trade for the sound you prefer or sell it and buy something you prefer.

[evanreilly]

I have a 1924 F-4. It is an exquisite instrument, which has a long history of abuse. #I just recently had Lynn Dudenbostel do a lot of rehab to it & it is in pretty good condition now. #Even Big Joe gave it a hug & treated it like an ancient historical object when it came into his shop!!!
It is probably one of the best examples of a Loar-era, Virzi F-4 on the block & has the sound to match. #
But it will never grow up & be an F-5.
My sincere advice is don't re-engineer a vintage instrument; find a new one or have one built to meet your criteria.

[Bob A]

Had an opportunity to buy a blonde F4 a few years ago. Turns out it was blonde because the top had been shaved. It also had begun to collapse. Truly a pity.

You can mess with bridges and strings (but keep an eye on the top), but please don't remove any wood. Like everyone says, if you prefer something else, sell the F4 and buy what you really want. There's no future in messing up a valuable instrument in hopes of changing it into something it may not be capable of becoming.

[uncle ken]

I just recently restored a 1920 F4 and the sound was greatly enhanced by having some open seams repaired, the one small crossbrace reglued, the original pearl nut shimmed, going to a newer style adjustable bridge, and new frets. I'm also using the J74 flat top strings. I find myself playing it more than my F5 and really love the old timey sound. It is loud with lots of bass and lots of high chimey sounding overtones, probably from the thick top that is several times thicker than my F5. The key is probably finding someone who is really good at doing all of the setup work to get the maximum potential from the instrument.

[PCypert]

Hey,
I would definately agree with all previous posters. If you'be played others that have the sound you want, that might be where you want to lean. If you want a mando you can play and set up to your hearts content go with a new one. I'm not a super purist or anything. I understand new bridges, tuners, tailpieces, etc. But sanding the top down seems a bit much. A lot of work, could ruin your instrument permanently, you could lose the thousands you could trade it for, etc. Please don't,
Paul

[Gary S]

While I would agree with the other posts I would also say that there have been many respected players and luthiers that have thinned tops on vintage mandolins. I have heared of some Randy Wood f-12 conversions and I believe I read about Monteleone thinning the top on Mike Marshall's loar.
I think they remove the back to thin the back of the top.This leaves the finish in tact.

I am a big fan of vintage oval hole Gibsons but they can vary quite a bit in sound quality. All F-4s are not winners.

Having said that, I would concurr with the other posters that it would probably be best to not alter it. Keep in mind that the tops have been known to sink,though this may be more of an issue about loose bracing.
Good luck....Gary S

[JiminRussia]

Thinner isn't always better. The top needs to be tuned and if the top board is just plain too stiff or the grain wrong for the instrument, no amount of thinning is going to make it sound right. There has to be a balance between volume and tone. if all you want is loud, use a microphone or a pick up. Tone, on the other hand is much harder to come by.

[Bob Sayers]

I used to have a 1917 F-4 that was decent-sounding, but nothing special. #A friend in Tucson, Arizona made me a new one-piece bridge (I believe it was solid ebony) with the same profile as the original. #He drilled holes up through the bottom of the new bridge to hollow it out slightly, then replaced it on the mandolin. #You couldn't see the holes when it was in place. #I don't quite know why, but it sure did improve the instrument's tone. #Has anyone else heard of this? #

BTW: #My friend also made me a solid ebony bridge (with a bone insert along the top edge) for my vintage Whyte Laydie banjo and did the same thing--drilled a hole up through the bottom of each foot. #It also made a big difference for the better. #Strange, but true.

Bob

[GTison]

that mandolin has been around for 80 years. Respect the original design and craftmanship of it. DON'T THIN THE TOP. Try something else.