Mandolins and tone over time

[jasona]

Hi all,

I've been wondering about a comment John reischman made at a workshop I attended recently. He stated that he thought it possible that the tone of a mandolin is partially determined by the player and their peculiarities over time. I have thought that as my mandolin has aged and "opened up" it has developed the tone I like to a greater degree. Could it be that it is responding to me and my touch and preferences?

I have only had one quality mandolin, so was wondering if some of you who have had several new mandolins over the years could share your thoughts. Is it possible that the quest for tone in a particular mandolin (and MAS of course) be slightly misleading, insofar as the tone comes from the player in part?

(Note, I recognize that there is differences in quality, etc. My Kentucky would never develop into what my Ratcliff was on day one. But that's not a fair comparison)

[Scotti Adams]

Sure you can...tone develops over time with playing.

[mandopete]

Yes, I think this is true. #One thing John mentioned in his workshop was the difference in everyone's physiology (with respect to pick grip, ect). #I think these differences will manifest different tonal responses and that over time will develop tonal characteristics in the mandolin.

Ever pick up someone else's mando that sounds great when they play it, but sounds terrible when you play it?

[bjc]

I've also wondered if as the player gets to know the mandolin, they are able to make the strong points stand out, while hiding or compensating for the weaknesses.

[Givson]

I believe that your personal style and type of playing do influence the eventual sound of the instrument. For example, a mandolin played classical style in a mandolin orchestra will eventually develop different tonal characteristics than the same instrument played in a bluegrass band. The reaason for this: different styles of playing, different attacks, pick preferences, etc, cause the instrument to vibrate differently. A good instrument will respond to your particular style of playing and develop over time a sound that is unique to the fact that you were the primary player.

If you had been the one to purchase a certain F-5 from a barbershop in 1942, and played it for 50 years, how do you think it would sound today?

[JimRichter]

Though I do "believe" it's necessary to consistently play an instrument over time to "wake it up" or open it up, I don't necessarily believe it takes on our characteristics. I'm more likely to accept that we learn the instrument and how to bring out its strong points and minimize those we don't particularly care for. It's also true that many of us have changed instruments considerably to find the one "that speaks to us," meaning it's got some if not most of the tonal characteristics that we desire. If we could influence the instrument, wouldn't we be happy with most any quality instrument?

Saying that we somehow imprint ourselves in the instrument tonally almost begs some type of metaphysical debate, as opposed to a scientific one. I guess if you argued that one person plays hard and another soft, each affecting the molecular structure of each in a different manner, you might have grounds for a debate, but I'm disinclined to accept it.

That being said and me being the emotional/passionate dude that I am, I do believe that some intrinsic part of me gets transferred to the instruments I've favored. But I recognize that as part of my emotional self and not something scientific.

Jim

[JEStanek]

So you guys are postulating something like wood "muscle-memory". That makes sense. If I play softly on a mandolin and through certain musical figures the sound chamber vibrates in a "reproducible" way that allows the repetition of those vibrations to happen easier over time. So if I had a mandolin that I played classical on for years and felt the sound had matured and then started wailing Monroe style on it the maturity of tone it had developed wouldn't be present for that style?

Of course some of these subtle changes can be overshadowed by letting someone with excellent technique play the mandolin you've broken in to a certain style, grip, attack....

Has anyone had a mandolin that sounded great in your hands sound awful in Riechman's, Compton's, Thile's, Dawg's, etc hands? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

That makes sense... I wonder how true it is.

Jamie

[GTison]

I think mandolins open up and do change with playing. And may respond to different peoples right and left hand attack. But I also think the mandolin tells you over time what it likes to play and you play it.

[LeoR]

There are ways to milk more tone out of instruments. A lot of it is in the hands, the attack, the location of where the hands are, the way the pick is held...

Those are subtle differences. If an instrument doesn't sound good right out of the chute, it'll probably never sound too great.

1923 F-5's sounded good out of the chute. 1973 F5's didn't, they weren't the same instrument. 1940 D-28's sounded great right off the line. 1970's D-28's didn't, again they weren't the same instrument. Changes were made that compromised the sound. More years and more playing might make a little difference but it won't change that basic fact.

[Joe Mangio]

Right on LeoR!

[Dale Ludewig]

I think your ear changes over time, as you play more mandolins. I stress the plural. Of course you get used to your own. But playing another has so many other factors involved than tone- everything physical about how you interact with it- that "the tone" of that instrument can become lost at least in the first few minutes, or hours. If you're someone like John, heck you can bring the best out of any instrument in short order. It won't be the same tone coming out of a better instrument. Like Mr. Reischmans's Loar. I've watched him play other instruments and he is a master (of course) in bringing the best out of anything put in his hands.

I also believe most well built mandos "open up" with adequate agressive playing. Then you have to find the "sweet spot" on that mando. That's not necessarily where you always want to play. You're just learning what your instrument can do when you play in different positions and different forces, different picks (go heavy!).

I also agree with LeoR- Good mandolins sound good out of the box. How they develop is a whole 'nother discussion that has been discussed before. Search here on the cafe. Much info and experiences. Good stuff, to quote Johnny Carson. Just MHO.

[epicentre]

Have never tried this myself, but a friend, when buying a new instrument, keeps in on top of the TV set which is hardly ever turned off in his house.

Swears by it. Says the sound and music gets "into" the wood.

Whatever.

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[chuck.naill]

quote:
"Though I do "believe" it's necessary to consistently play an instrument over time to "wake it up" or open it up, I don't necessarily believe it takes on our characteristics."

I agree with you Jim. There is a transition that we go through in determining the instruments sweet spot and staying there. Same is true for any instrument where strings are involved. Might even be true universally.

Chuck

[ira]

i'm with jim as well. though my mando has certainly opened up, i believe that 1. my ear is accustomed to my sound, and 2. i know just where to strum, fret, tremolo, and powerchord it for the sounds i like and to get the most out of it for a different tune. there was a thread a while back regarding the benefits of playing just one mando for the long haul rahter than constantly playing new ones. imho the biggest benefit is that it becomes an extension of your brain, soul and fingers. it is more natural and you know how to get the most out of your axe.
ira
ps- i love these threads. though i would like another mando or 2 (new national res., weber bridger and vega cylinder back , and poss. an old wave or an old gibson 'a' would be my choices- i do feel that i'm able to coax my kennaquhair p2 to get the most out of it and it is at this point like a part of me-at least on the good nights).

[Blueglass]

It's true we can "become one with the mandolin" if another player picks up my mandolin they get squeaks I do not. Simply because I know how to hit it better than they do. I do think the mandolin is effected by who plays it. Especally over time. If a picker uses lots of tremolo the mandolin takes on that ability more then if it was played by a down stroke blues picker. I mean how can it not?

[TonyP]

I'm a strong believer in "mojo" of players, wood, luthiers. If it were true that science could quantify, as in exact dimensions, woods, finishes, etc. then you could totally have a machine make an instrument and it would always be good. But that's not the case. The luthier I know puts a lot of intuition into each mando, working off basic specs. And when I think about it, when I used to rebuild VW engines for a living, even those were not cookie cutter the same. I visited that same luthier for a couple of days, playing all the different mando's, but on the last day, mine. He'd not heard that mando for years and the first thing that came out of his mouth was, what happened, that mando didn't sound that good before! The only thing I could explain was we grew together, in voice and ability. I've also heard of some of my hero's who can't understand how other people can own a herd of mando's and #1, keep them all awake, #2, keep that "mojo" alive.

[red7flag]

I would assume that it is the vibrations that open up the mandolin. I would have to believe that different types of vibrations would open an instrument in a different way. I guess what would be interesting is to have two very similar sounding instruments made by the same manufacturer, with the same hardwear and woodtypes. Then have one played by a classical and one played by a bluegrasser and AB them at the end. Just typing this, I can see some real faults in this experiment, but still would be interesting.
Tony

[allenhopkins]

My memory is shaky (and a lot of other things, these days), but I seem to remember a luthier or dealer who used to try to "age" instruments by putting them in front of powerful audio speakers for an extended period, to replicate the vibrations that would affect them if they were played for years. Of course there are many differences between the vibrational changes that would affect the instrument during actual playing, and those that would occur (if any) from being merely exposed to strong sonic stimuli.
Does anyone else remember this particular experiment, and if it resulted in any benefits? I sort of suspect it was a dead end, as I haven't heard any more about it.

[Chris Baird]

The best explanation on this that I can come up with is as follows:

#Mandolins vibrate in response to the energy from the string. #The energy "bounces" around within the body and is dampened by both internal friction and sound raditation. #The body will have various physical vibrational "patterns" called mode shapes which are a factor of its material characterics and natural boundries. The mode shapes are defined by areas that vibrate(anti-nodes) and areas that are relatively still(nodes). #Almost anyone realizes what happens when trying to break a flexible branch. The more you bend it around the "looser" it gets. There is a physical breakdown of the wood's structure which results in a lowering of the stiffness in a local area. I believe the same is likely true for mandolins. #The areas which are "bent" the most by vibration are physically changed/"loosened up". But, the real beauty of it lies in that the "loosening up" or losses of stiffness are in local areas that "need" to be loose in order to facilitate the mandolins' natural mode shapes.
#This is all just my(gleaned partly from others)hypothesis and is beyond my ability to test. But, I know that there are folks working on it in the violin world.
#Whether or not different playing styles would cause different physical changes is a tough question and could only be answered with a lot of research. It does, however, seem possible, although, I'd likely bet that the breakin would likely be the same no matter the player and would be somewhat proportional to playing time and how loud the player plays.

[berkeleymando]

Mandoplyr (Chris Baird) built me a F4 mandolin last year, and oh boy has it recently gotten a heck of a lot louder somehow. It started out sounding fantastic, but now it is even richer warmer and louder! It is pushing one year old and I play it every day. But recently I have been playing it more in jam situations which seems to have had a good effect. Totally unscientific and subjective but something is definitely going on.

[Mikey G]

One of my buddies played my Fern and it sounded pretty average. Another friend, who is a really good picker, played it and it sounded awesome. I believe it has a lot to do with technique, and maybe a little mojo.

[Nolan]

I play mandolin for some contra dances, usually two+ hours of me chopping and taking alternating breaks on the fiddle tunes. #Any mandolin I've ever played for those gigs I swear sounds a lot more "Open" after the dance... so much that I usually go home and play for an hour or so on my own.
I'm not sure if the mandolin actually opens up, my technique gets better or my ear changes but whatever it is, the end result is the same... I'm a lot happier with the tone I'm getting!

[Walter Newton]

Allen check out this old Acoustic Guitar magazine article, might be what you're thinking of...

Article (http://www.acousticguitar.com/Gear/advice/vibration.shtml)

[Nick Triesch]

I think that good mandolins will sound great over time no matter who plays them. Just as long as they are played. The reason I say this is because just about every old Gibson A type mandolin that I have played, say( 1917-1925) has "that sound" Rich and deep and seweet and wonderful. I bet many of these mandolins did not start out this way. IMHO. Nick