Help Holding Mandolin

[stting]

Hello all,

I have owned a mandolin for a little over a year, but I've been playing on and off. Only recently have I really begun in earnest.

FWIW for the question below, I currently also play the cello and guitar.

I own a mid-Missouri with a v-neck. I usually play sitting down without a strap.

When I play, it seems that there is a lot of tension in my left hand, namely my thumb. It's as if I'm pressing against the neck really hard to get the notes to come out (for chords). It's possible that this has to do with the strings, but does anyone have any pointer on how to let the mandolin rest in the left hand? I've been searching online, and some places said to let it rest on the base of the index finger. But for chords, it seems to not work too well. Right now, the mandolin sort of rests on my thumb (the thumb is right at the curve of the v-shaped neck).

Also, the strings that came with the mandolin seem really hard. Does anyone have recommendations for strings that are a bit softer on the fingers (I know the volume will be softer, but that isn't really a concern for me, at least right now). Also, where are good places to order strings online?

Thanks!

[craigtoo]

Hey.

I battle with some of those issues everyday. #One thing I did that helped was to have the set up looked at and adjusted if necessary. Specifically the height of the strings where they come through the nut. If the action is too high you really have to squeeze to fret the notes especially on the first few frets.

The next thing I worked on was practicing the scales with as *light* a touch as possible.. #Just enough to fret the note. #I had to teach myself what it took as far as pressure to get the string to cleanly contact the fret.

Another thing that helped was to learn where to to apply the pressure. #IMHO you're most efficient when pressing the string down just behind the fret.

As far as the squeezing is concerned, or in general hand tension, (this is a problem for me in both hands really) this is a battle that I fight daily. If you're not relaxed...stop.. shake the hand think about relaxing and start again. Take breaks...Tension usually means that I am trying to play too fast or too loud or both. Or just trying somehting that is really new and hard. #It just takes time...but don't overdo it. Injuries happen that way...

Strings...
www.juststrings.com #
I play D'Addario's Phosphor Bronze (J74's I think they are called...)
The guys/gals at juststrings.com are great. #Good service and Good prices. #I don't know much about the softness of strings....

enjoy...
craig

[Christine W]

Make sure your strap is supporting the neck of the mandolin properly. Adjust accordingly.

[John Flynn]

I have been playing for a while and I play a lot. I also battle hand problems. Two things I am trying with some success:

1) Warm ups and stretches: I start with something Mike Compton taught at his workshop. Alternately grab each finger with a full palm grip in the opposite hand. Then pull the finger (no jokes here!) out of the grip at a moderate pace, 10 times for each finger, including the thumb. It's like a finger massage. Then I do the hand stretches on musicianshealth.com.

2) Thumb postion: Someone else on the board gave me this tip. Try pointing/opposing the thumb more towards the ring finger when you are playing. Most people tend to point it toward the index finger and that can create more tension.

I also very much agree with the previous comments about good set up and lightening up hand tension in general.

[John Zimm]

I usually try to support the mandolin as much as I can with my right arm if I feel like it is falling forward. I usually play sitting down with a strap, and the strap can be used to hold tha mandolin upright as well. I noticed that I was using too much left hand strength trying to balance the mandolin.

Other than that, what the other have said is good advice. Only press down with as much force as you need to play the note cleanly. For me, it has helped to watch good players play because you can see how seemingly effortless it is for the good ones to play-and trying to mimic their relaxation has helped me a lot.

-John.

[August Watters]

There's already been a lot of good advice on this thread, so I won't repeat a lot of what I'd say -- but as a teacher one of the most common mistakes I see from students is placing the thumb on the back of the neck, guitar-style, especially for bluegrass chop chords. Sometimes the thumb does need to be on the back of the neck, but usually left hand tension can be reduced by contacting the back of the neck #with the palm of the hand, and wrapping the thumb partway around the top of the neck. We're all built a little differently so you can't be dogmatic about thumb position, but I think it's safe to say that the thumb on the back of the neck should be the exception, not the rule.

Any lighter-gauge strings will help to reduce tension in your left hand. Thomastiks are especially good for this, as long as you like their rounded tone.

August Watters
http://www.galleryofstrings.com

[carolynbeth]

I was told by a former instructor a few do's and don'ts that might be of help, FWIW:
1. DON'T let the neck rest in your palm or the part of your hand between your thumb and the base of your index finger (I forget what that's called...). There should always be a little space between that part of your hand and the neck.

2. DO position your fret-hand so that your fingers rest at a 45 degree angle to the neck.

3. DON'T (as someone else just pointed out) hook or curl your thumb over the top of the neck. Your thumb should (generally) be straight and held at a sideways angle in relation to the neck-- with the tip of your thumb pointing in the general direction of the headstock, if that makes sense. If you play guitar, this can be an especially hard habit to break....my instructor felt very strongly about this, to the point of making me wrap electrical tape around my thumb joint to keep it from curling over. I thought it a bit extreme at the time, but I have to say it really helped....

As far as strings, the Thomastiks have been the most comfortable for me, but they're so expensive I've been trying to experiment with some others. Haven't found any yet that I like as much -- the J74s feel pretty hard to me....

Anyway, this is just my personal experience -- you have to do whatever works for you! Good luck,
Carolyn

[stting]

Thanks for all the replies!

Just wondering, has anyone tried silksteel strings (I think that's what they're called)?

[August Watters]

Oh, oh -- I didn't mean to open up a can of worms here. I think Carolynbeth and I are really saying just about the same thing:

The thumb shouldn't be wrapped all the way around the neck -- this introduces extra tension in the hand. The thumb usually points up toward the headstock, partway around the neck.

Carolynbeth's suggestion about the thumb position pointing up toward the headstock will prevent the mistake I described -- overuse of the thumb on the back of the neck. Placing the thumbprint against the back of the neck requires all the pressure to come from opposing finger and thumb muscles. With the thumb pointed up toward the headstock, you can use some leverage from the hand to hold the strings, rather than just finger/thumb pressure. You have to experiment to find for your hand shape and size, and style of music you play, to find when you can point the thumb up, and when it really has to be back behind the neck.

Silk & Steel strings are more mellow than the usual phosphor bronze. #It's good to experiment with different types of strings to find which sound the best on your mandolin!

August W

[Kelly_guy]

Whew...August, thanks for the clarification. I was very confused, it appeared that you and carolynbeth were saying exactly the opposite thing.

I've always played much as you describe--the neck rests in the crook between my thumb and forefinger. If I try to play with the print of my thumb resting on the neck, it feels extremely awkward! I have the Chris Thile DVD, and it appears that his thumb is very nearly in that position--the neck actually seems to rest on the middle portion of his thumb, and the thumb extends past the neck. I just can't play that way.

I'm starting lessons next week, and I'm sure Sims will have lots and lots of suggestions for changing both hand positions. Then again, he said on the phone that some of the best advice is "just play!". I like that.

[carolynbeth]

Oh, dear..... August, sorry if it seemed like I was contradicting you! that certainly wasn't my intent. When I first read your post, I thought I was just expanding a little on your point about thumb position -- but after re-reading it, I can see how I might have created some confusion....:(

Kelly_Guy, I have Thile's DVD too...it looked to me like he holds his thumb straight and pointing towards the headstock for the most part....guess I'll have to look again...I found it very awkward to play that way at first, but now I don't even think about it. Of course my playing still sucks, so take all this with that in mind....:)

Carolyn

[August Watters]

That's what I love about communicating online -- so many chances for misunderstandings! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wink.gif #Sorry if I wasn't clear at first.

It's good to remember that there are lots of ways of getting good results. So I think it's important not to be dogmatic about technique; a teacher's responsibility is to help a student investigate different ways of playing and find what works best for the individual.

People get really focused on this technique or that, really believing if they do it just the way (fill in name of favorite mandolinist) played, they'll sound great -- the problem is that we're all built a little differently, with different sizes and shapes of hands. Add in differences in instrument scale, string height, playability, etc., and that's a LOT of factors that vary from one player to the next. So I might spend my whole life trying to master Jethro Burns' hand positions, not realizing that my own hands might require a different position for similar results!

Many times I've encountered a student who insists on one technique or another, having been convinced that's the only correct way. But there are so many ways to misunderstand -- for example, I was recently having a rather heated discussion about right hand technique with quite a high-level player, who was insisting that the motion is all in the wrist, and nothing else. I strongly disagreed, since forearm rotation is extremely important -- until I realized he was lumping rotation of the forearm in with wrist motion. So we were really agreeing after all!

Of course there is also such thing as bad technique -- habits that will prevent a player from reaching his or her goals. The "just play" theory can work since a lot of times bad habits do work themselves out over a period of time -- but then again, they may just become more engrained, and a player can gain a lot of frustration in the meanwhile!

So anyway: to the person who started this thread, I'd say watch those instructional videos, think about hand position, consider getting some lessons from someone who has a broad perspective on technique -- but in the end we all have to find what works best for us.

August W
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif