hide glue

[mandomaker]

I am thinking of using hide glue, primarily because of my suspicion that it could make a better mandolin acoustically than carpenter's yellow glue. Also, I came across a thread that indicated the joint is much stronger if the wood is pre-heated as well as the the glue (to 145 degrees). #Any thoughts and/or tips from hide glue users out there is greatly appreciated by me and probably others reading this wonderful forum.

[austin]

I don't know about the heat making the joint stronger, but it gives you a few seconds more working time, which can be critical. If the glue gels before you use it, you need to start over. And if you put the hot glue on cool wood, it will gel pdq.

[arbarnhart]

The hide glue info at Frets.COM (click) (http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Data/Materials/hideglue.html) is a really good source of info that is somewhat specific to luthery.

[John Bertotti]

I tried hide glue on my first. I thought it was extremely difficult to use. I had to heat the room I was using to over 100 degrees to make it work. I was informed later the ratio of granules to water was printed wrong. I had it like 10 times stronger the it should be. I imagine that properly mixed it won't be bear as bad to use and produce a much less brittle joint. Heating did lengthen my gel time.

[tope]

I do like the Milligan and Higgins brand hide glue which is 192 gram strenght which to me works much better than the 150 gram that Stew Mac sells. I mix 1 part glue to 1.9 part water by weight. I preheat my glueing surface with the heat gun then sprizs the glue surface slightly with water then brush the glue on and clamp.
Test dry clamping your glue joint until you have a system that you can get clamped up in 45 seconds or less and then your ready for the real thing. You gotta be quick with this stuff. Check out the frets.com mentioned earlier, some good stuff there.
Good luck

[sunburst]

The above-mentioned info on hide glue from Frets.com is more info than I can give you about the stuff.
The real advantages of hide glue over Titebond/Elmers are; resistance to creep, and resistance to heat. It is more difficult to use.

I would be skeptical if the world's most experienced mandolin builder could hear a significant difference in the sound of his/her instruments if glued with hide glue or yellow glue, and I can't imagine that anyone could hear any difference in their early instruments.

[Michael Lewis]

John Hamlett beat me to it. Especially the part about early instruments. Learn how to make good instruments first. There is no harm in using hide glue from the beginning but it is a deal more constant hassle than just picking up a bottle and squeezing it on.

One thing to consider when using hide glue is when heating the wood it will dry out and shrink, and sometimes considerably. When it gets clamped and the glue dries out the top will rehydrate and sewll a bit. This can be a good thing if you are making flat tops and plan for the effect, but in general for carved top instruments you don't want this happening as it can cause deformation of the top.

[arbarnhart]

Another link I should have posted:

http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.a....&ID=107 (http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=107)

not near as much info in here except for one major difference from most other sources of info - it gives Tage Frid's (a renowned woodworker) method for mixing up a batch without a scale.

BTW, one of the main reasons I want to use hide glue is that I am interested in making some ancient style instruments for Renaissance Festival goers and authenticity of materials is important (to some degree more important than the design).

[Paul Hostetter]

I think the perennial reference to "resistance to creep" is a red herring. Millions of instruments are made using it, none of them endure what could be called creep, or any kind of structural failure. I made a bet based on that tired puppy thirty years ago and lost it a long time ago. Moreover, the glue itself – any glue or adhesive for that matter - is guarantee of nothing if it isn’t properly used and of best quality.

There is a very good case to be made for the acoustic transparency of hide glue compared to aliphatics though. On Paul Reed Smith’s dime, Dana Bourgeois made an extremely thorough examination of the nature of each, and the difference was quite evident.

I love heated granular hide glue and don’t think it’s difficult to use, but I started using it in 1966. I use it often, but not to the exclusion of aliphatics or other adhesives. It depends on the job at hand. Practice makes perfect, you just have to plan ahead a little in terms of working conditions (whole room at 100 degrees???) and choose its applications wisely. I doubt I’d recommend making one’s first instrument with it. Too many learning curves on top of one another!

[mandomaker]

Thanks, everyone-I may wait until later instruments to get into the hot glue, since I am already planning to varnish the instrument, which is another set of issues-such as what about gamboge?-Gibson used it I've heard. It may be of interest.

[John Bertotti]

Paul sure has that right. A lot of learning curves involved. The room was hot but with the extra strong glue it did give me about 15 extra seconds before gel up for a grand total of about 25 to 30 seconds. I was going nuts! I have tried the glue with the correct mix and the working time is a night and day difference.

[Michael Lewis]

Gamboge is quite toxic. Read up about it before you decide to use it. I wouldn't use it as there are other sealers and stains that are much less dangerous and do a better job.