Pattern problems

[brendon]

I'm playing some jazz compositions written by a friend which has longish 8th note passages.

I'm having problems swinging these passages. I've tried using a dotted 8th note, 16th note pattern.

I find that at higher tempos the second note (semi quaver) gets very quick and difficult to play.

Any suggestions?

[Ted Eschliman]

Not sure if you're difficulty is aural (just hearing it) or physical. Practicing "swinging" scale passages (not playing them straight) outside of context might help. You might need to focus on a weaker uptstroke of the pick.
Also: Jazz Articulations (http://mandolinsessions.com/jun05/mandology.html)

[Jeroen]

Swing seems to be a very personal thing. Hardly any players practice different "amounts" of swing.
Many bands sound tighter at higher tempos because differences in swing interpretation will even out, just like it happens with Brendon.
I like all kinds of swing from Jethro's heavy swing, to Skagg's funky swing, to Lawson's stiff metric swing to Statman's almost anti-swing (as if he is playing udud udud).
I don't mind if it differs a bit at different tempo's, but like Brendon (and seemingly unlike many other musicians) I like to be in control.
Things can get really messy if the rhythm section doesn't give a consistent basic rhythm, or forces a soloist in a "swing" where he is not happy.

[jmcgann]

Listen to the masters of jazz, from Armstrong through Benny Goodman, Charlie Christian, Lester Young, Ben Webster, Coleman Hawkins, Bird n' Diz, Bud Powell, Mingus, Miles, Herbie Hancock, Bill Evans...you'll hear lots of even 8ths that swing like crazy, because of where the eighth notes lie rhythmically against the pulse, and where the accents lie.

I get into this a bit in my Rhythm Tune Up DVD. (http://www.johnmcgann.com/books.html)

The way swing is "sold" in most books is 66% of the beat on the 1st eighth and 33% on the 2nd. It's not that you don't hear that occasionally, but no real jazz player in the tradition of the above mentioned players lives there IMHO. Don't take all your cues from mandolinists.

When I was 20 or so, I took a lesson with Andy Statman (who is a virtuoso saxophonist and clarinet player as well as one of the universe's greatest mandolinists). Quote: "You newgrass guys all play jazz with that businessman's bounce...listen to Ben Webster!" Deeper listening revealed he was right.


I've tried using a dotted 8th note, 16th note pattern.

No offense, but that would be how a non-improvising classical player would approach it- and it swings like the Rock of Gibraltor #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[250sc]

Just this week I was trying to write out a solo (tab, but with timing notated)that consisted of a series of 8th notes but couldn't figure out how to get the timeing right. To be honest I don't know if I wanted to write it as swing timing or a shuffle.

Is there an on line source that documents how to notate these types of rythms?

Thanks.

[brendon]

My difficulty is physical and aural (maybe I shouldn't be playing jazz http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

It looks (from the comments here) that I should be:
- practising my (definately) weak upstroke
- developing my own interpretation of 'swing' (some great ideas suggested)

I personally agree with john mcgann - the 8th 16th note thing is way fake.
I've spent a lot of time listening to Jethro and Grapelli, but the guy who's written the piece I'm playing wants something else and I'm not exactly sure what. I personally like playing quite straight - bizarely, that's how I hear Jethro (maybe I should listen more carefully)

So far I like the suggestion of concentrating on the accent rather than length of note.

[Jeroen]

Does "swing" (semantically, argh) include timing/phrasing (as I understand from John McGann), or is it only the (un)evenness of the twin 8th notes (which I hope, to keep things simple)? Or does it belong in the groovy, driving, woody category that simply expresses something yowza?

[jmcgann]

is there an on line source that documents how to notate these types of rhythms?


Go to the music store or library and look at any book of jazz solos, transcriptions, how-to's etc. Eighth notes are always notated as eighth notes- there is no special notation other than to write "swing" at the top of the page (and you'll get 180 different interpretations of that!)-unless you get a real old-school publication with dotted rhythms where someone from outside of the idiom tried (and failed) to notate a groove.

If you want to hear what good dotted rhythms sound like, listen to a Scottish strathspey.

An excellent source for getting a handle on jazz rhythmic phrasing (where run-on eighth notes as you find in fiddle tunes are not "good phrasing"), check out #"Reading Key Jazz Rhythms" by Fred Lipsius. There is a violin edition which would be great for mando. It comes with a CD with a removeable rhythm section and demonstration of the melodic/rhythmic phrasing, in case your reading skills are, um, "developing" http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif as mine always are...

Another similar set I recommend is "Jazz Conception" by Jim Snidero.


Or does it belong in the groovy, driving, woody category that simply expresses something yowza?

If you can hear it, you can feel it and then you can play it. It all comes in through the ears.

Trying to play jazz without listening to the great players and getting a sense of what the music is about is like learning to play bluegrass from books without listening to Scruggs or Monroe-kind of "not happening".

[Dolamon]

Perhaps this has been touched on earlier or at least else where in an adjacent thread. To shift the groove around, you first need to understand and feel where the groove is. And that can be the big hurdle.

If you haven't done it already - take a few drumming classes, hand, stick, foot, forehead etc. It really takes practice to get a rock steady rhythm anytime you want it before you dive into the subtleties. John McGann's absolutely remarkable "Rhythm Tune Up" DVD is (for me) the definative explanation of metronome use and ways of expanding your rhythm repertoire. I hope this is still available and really feel that it is mandatory for getting a handle on controling the esoteric right hand.

Sometimes you got to step back before you can move forward.

[brendon]

I've started going to percussion sessions run by a friend who's an African music specialist - I've just being playing shakers - sounds simple except that holding that tempo for long periods is very very difficult, especially when drummers start doing cross cycle beats. I regard this as cross training for mandolin rhythm playing. I've also tried transfering some of the patterns I've learnt into crosspicking patterns e.g. 3 over 4; 2 over 3. Difficult!

put words to it...... or sounds.. that always helped me get timings right on a song and coming up with a creative funny one helps break it up. thats how i learned alot of rythmic stuff.. all sounds.

pass the peas and ketchup..... some of you may already knowthat one.

[250sc]

My problem is that I can play it, I just can't write it but I can write Swing as a note on the top of the page.

No big deal....I've moved on to other things. Thanks for the help.