Brandt

[chinatogalway]

I saw a Brandt mandolin for sale recently, and really liked the look of it. Violin styled head, bowl backed.

Does anyone one know anything about them? Are they linked to Lyon and Healy ? Brandt is also made in Chicago.

Thanks

[Ken Berner]

I wonder if Elen has become a luthier-ess?

[Tom C]

I have a Brandt 1899 I believe. Yes mine has the violin scroll headstock. It does have a cracked top though. I will try to post pics soon. How much are they asking?

[Jim Garber]

I don't believe that they were connected with Lyon & Healy (tho nothing would surprise me with the internecine relationships between the Chicago companies). I believe these brandt bowlbacks predate L&H violin-scrolled mandolins by about 20 years or so.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

Scroll from another

[chinatogalway]

wonderful pictures, thank you. Are they good players or just pretty?

Thanks

[Jim Garber]

They are not mine, just photos of ones I have seen. Eugene should chime in here. He owned one at one time. I am sure that they are decent American bowlbacks.

Jim

[Eugene]

I did own one. I really liked it: comfortably playable and loud...but a bit unrefined in cosmetic detail and tone quality. I've been thinking on scoring another out of some campy brand of nostalgia. They were endorsed by American virtuoso Seth Weeks.

[brunello97]

Eugene's post got me thinking a bit. "unrefined in ...tone quality".

This coupled with a quote from Martin a while back about the "shimmering quality" of the sound from Italian bowlbacks.

I recently acquired my first Italian bowlback, purchased admittedly for the attractive marquetery parrot (don't ask why.) To my great suprise the tone, well, "shimmers". I can feel the top vibrate under my fingertips. The bowl is maple, I think. I figure it is from Catania, based on some details, but don't know for sure.

A complete and happy suprise for me. I supose it is like trying to describe the taste of wine: words fail, but I am interested in what might, if anything, distinguish American, Italian and German bowlbacks in terms of sound quality (or is this a gross exaggeration?)

Certainly such a discussion has long gone on viz California, Tuscan and Rheinisch weins, eh?

Mick

[chinatogalway]

Thanks for all the help and pictures !

[Jim Garber]

I am interested in what might, if anything, distinguish American, Italian and German bowlbacks in terms of sound quality
Very generally speaking, the better Italian instruments are built exceptionally light. It is sometimes surprising just to pick one up and expect a little more heft.

Other contributing factors are various systems of tone production using metal saddles, zero frets, overall design or shape of the body, angle of the neck. In short, similar things are factors in any other instrument.

In essence, an acoustic stringed instrument is a balance of making something that will support string pressure but allow resonance, in some odd ways a contradiction. You need to find that (to use that recently overused phrase) "tipping point."

I am sure that we can all fnd the vintage terms to apply here: dry, sweet, etc.

Jim

[Jim Garber]

For entertainment value, this Brandt mandola (non bowlback) has been on Top Shelf Music's site for ever. The photo is terrible but I have enhanced it somewhat (BION).

Jim

[Bob A]

I've never been able adequately to describe the differences between Italian and US bowlbacks, though one can hear the differences fairly easily. And lightness of construction is not necessarily a difference written in stone: I have a Pecoraro (essentially an Embergher instrument) whose construction is solid, if not exactly heavy, yet it has the distinctive Embergher sound. (Listen to Alison Stephens' "Con Espressione" for an example. My mandolin sounds just like hers; my playing, alas, emphaticaaly does not.)

A Vega Pettine Special, to my mind one of the best American bowlbacks ever made, is a thrilling instrument to play. It has the abbility to keep on producing good sound no matter how lightly or heavily you play on it - no breakup. "Plays like a train" is how Richard Walz describes them. Yet it is possessed of a sweetness that is its own tone, somehow not Italian-sounding at all. And a Larson-made Stahl is remarkably loud and efficient at projecting the sounds it produces, but is rather more fundamental-sounding, with fewer of the bright overtones.

Shimmering sound is certainly present in most of these instruments, moreso for the lightly-constructed examples. I tend to prefer the lighter instruments, but I don't believe they have quite the carrying power of the others. Still, I've heard a tiny Vinaccia carry to every corner of an old large stone church; of course the acoustics in such a place help a lot.

The modern German instruments have a lot more bass, and a lot less treble, than any other bowlback. They're usually strung with Thomastiks, which emphasise that tonal style.

It has been pointed out that a good bowlback can hold its own against a grand piano; remember that the light strings, driving a light top, ought to be capable of matching heavy strings vibrating a Gibson-style instrument. Given the relative masses involved, I'd bet the bowlback is a far more efficient transducer of string motion into sound than any carved instrument.

I've long felt that we need to develop a consensual vocabulary to describe these things, yes, like a bunch of fine-wine junkies; the drawbacks are the need to get a suitable list of descriptive adjectives, then to assemble enough bowlbacks and players in the same room to hammer out an agreement, preferably with the aid of some kind of solvent (the wine again?) to aid the flow of soul.

[Martin Jonas]

But unlike the wine junkies, we can at least share the experience to some extent without sending mandolins around to each other: we can record them. Of course, that overlays the player's proficiency and style with the characteristics of the instrument, but at least if we have the same player play the same piece on different instruments, some sort of characteristics should emerge.

I've been meaning to record a couple of short pieces on each of my mandolins and put it somewhere for comparison. Maybe something like the Branzoli Etude No. 13 (which crosses all four strings and alternates runs of picked eighths with tremolo phrases) plus maybe something like Carolan's Concerto which stands at the crossover point between folk tune, baroque and classical music. I guess to make it fair one needs to also factor in 15 minutes or so warm-up for each mandolin; mine change fairly dramatically after some playing time. I'll get aroudn to it at some stage...

Martin

[Moose]

aaahhh Ken!, ya' beat me to th' draw!## - you're QUICK, buddy!http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Ken Berner]

Hey Moose, She is the first thing I thought of. I am just guilty of trying to associate the name with something or someone; simply a habit because, at my advanced age, my memory "aint" what it used to be!

[Jim Garber]

Hey Moose, She is the first thing I thought of. I am just guilty of trying to associate the name with something or someone; simply a habit because, at my advanced age, my memory "aint" what it used to be!
Some sort of inside joke... wanna let us in on it?

Jim

[Eugene]

My Brandt had a rather brassy, sloppy sounding bass...but it was loud. It is now in the hands of a registered Cafe-er, but I haven't seen her 'round these parts for a while. Of American bowlback mandolins, I like the sound of good Martins. They are a bit more tightly focused. In bad Martins, this results in too much "tin" and too little bass. Vega mandolins might be those of the most consistently decent tone quality of those I've been fortunate to handle. Their Pettine Special model really was something extraordinary, and I agree with Bob; they may have been the finest American bowlback mandolins produced.

[Ken Berner]

jgarber, There is a lady who used to frequent this wonderful web site named Ellen Brandt. We don't hear much from her lately, but she was a welcome contributor and real high on Hans Brentrup mandolins. Sorry to throw y'all that curve ball.

[brunello97]

Bob,

Thanks for the great response to my fairly ineffable question: It was very thoughtful and well written. I like the auditory image of the mandolin in an old stone church (I am an architect-so this registers.)

I'm not sure if it is agreement or consensus that I seek in either wine or mandolins, just the kind of well expressed opinions such as what you have offered. I am not perhaps as empirical as Martin suggests, but I have spent numerous Friday evenings with a glass of wine playing the same piece on my admittedly modest array of bowlbacks, trying to get familiar with each of their voices. Very, very good for the soul.

thanks again,

Mick

[Martin Jonas]

I like the auditory image of the mandolin in an old stone church (I am an architect-so this registers.)
It's a great combination. Listen to Alison's "Con Espressione", already referenced by Bob above: that one was recorded in a tiny old church in France and all the reverb on it (and there is a lot) is entirely natural.

At a much more modest level, our ensemble performed in a lovely stone village church a few months ago, and both in rehearsals and in concert it's incredibly exhiliarating and confidence-boosting to play in a venue with great acoustics. It's hard to describe, but the player himself hears and feels the sound pouring out of the mandolin and filling up this entire space.

Martin