Vintage Gibson Shot of the Day (or week)

[danb]

This is F4 13406 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/gibson/serial/13406).. note the fingerboard, bridge, etc

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/13406_front2.jpg

[Ken Waltham]

That mandolin looks like one I used to own. It had a really nice back, for sure. And a really nice OHSC.
Ken

[Hans]

Dan, looks like I was wrong about the fingerboards and although I don't think the instrument is a "Frankenstein", I do find it an odd instrument as Gibson was making them with the S-shape scroll ridge at that time. That leads me to believe that this one and 13092 were just old bodies laying around. Note that they both have zero neck set with a very low bridge, while others with the S-shape ridge had some neck set and a higher bridge similar to the F-4 (2 pt) of the time. All this just reinforces my opinion that sometimes the factory workers just grabbed anything that was laying around to produce some of these instruments.
Ken, I do believe that you did own this instrument. Looks like your table on the archive!

[danb]

Flames..

[danb]

scroll

[danb]

81564 on the bench

[Darryl Wolfe]

Look too new, needs some distressing http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[mandowood]

Dan- this is slightly off topic, and may have been asked before, but what camera do you use? Your pictures are always first rate- I'm very impressed. Thanks...

[danb]

Early photos in this thread were a Canon G5, recent are a Canon EOS 20d. Most of the pictures I take are hideous, I only post about 1/50 attempts.. I'm learning as I go along though I tip my hat to "real photographers"!

[danb]

I also do a fair amount of photoshop work to make them look good on screen- my wife taught me that stuff (she's a graphic designer by trade)

[danb]

81564 with a nekkid peghead. I was trying a set of vintage replacement tuners that didn't end up being better.. thought it was an interesting view though!

[danb]

Here's the truss pocket

[Darryl Wolfe]

Can I have that little truss nut. I lost mine and nothing fits. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[carleshicks]

darryl if you take some measurment my buddy has a machine shop I can probably make you one.

[Scott Tichenor]

Don't believe I've ever posted in this thread. Allow me to introduce my spiffy new H1. Some of you may remember this was for sale on eBay a couple of weeks ago but the seller pulled the auction early.

[Scott Tichenor]

It's #67802

[Scott Tichenor]

[Scott Tichenor]

[Scott Tichenor]

[Scott Tichenor]

[Scott Tichenor]

Last one. These photos have not been retouched at all, just resized. The instrument is marvelous. Terrific vintage sound. Striking.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Very cool Scott. I got one a few months ago too, but it's certainly not that nice. Happy Birthday

[MML]

Shes a beaut, one day I'd like to explore the sonic posibilities of the mandola http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[danb]

This one has 2 pretty wow things about it..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/22712_in_case.jpg

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/22712_soundhole1.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/22712_face2.jpg


http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/22712_back_detail.jpg

[danb]

Once more in case you missed it..

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/22712_case_empty.jpg

[danb]

That case wasn't cataloged as far as I know. I *think* I have one other record..

[MML]

Dan tell us more about that F4, and its fingerboard. Interesting extension and "dots", and the case.....way cooool http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

The case is cataloged in the service manual and on the price list. In 1923 the case is listed as "discontinued, in stock quantities only"

[danb]

Actually Darryl, that's a different case.. they are like Loar cases and have purple felt. Also very rare, but this particular diagonal one with red silk is even rarer. I think I've seen one on ebay recently, I have a large backlog of stuff for the archive to pick through.. but the older loar-shaped case for F4s were not this fancy.

I think this one is a custom job, like the twin fern case.

I'm not 100% sure on the FB extension.. the owner points out quite rightly that the wood choices and case are quite premium, it seems plausible that the FB could be original, though I wonder- some examples got an F12 or F5 board that covers the soundhole later on. I'm curious if the fret spacing is the same on this as a "normal" F4 would be.. if the fret gaps are slightly wider it could be a retrofit from F5/f12 days, but if they are the same spacing (12 does join at right place) it might be original.

It certainly looks undisturbed there.

Check the gorgeous woods- nice silking on the top, very nice maple back

[danb]

Here's the one I think is referenced in the service manual:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/11051_in_case.jpg

[danb]

10132 has a cool case too, this one went back to gibson during the Loar period and came home with what is probably the only 3pt Loar case

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/10132_f2_in_case.jpg

[Darryl Wolfe]

Well Dan, yes I agree it is different, but I think it's still the 440 case for F-4 referred to in the catalog, just a different supplier or year. Just like the a-model cases, some are nice shiny silk lined and some are pretty chintzy, all to do with when it was made. Just my opinion

[danb]

yeah on balance I think you're right, there are 2 part numbers for flannel/silk..

see left-hand page (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/documents/1923_service_manual/page4.html)

[Darryl Wolfe]

well, we talked alot off-line just now, and the case business is hard to tell what they meant with any flannel, velvet, silk differentiation in part numbers. At most any time they had two or three differnt cases with differnt description, but usually other than one, the others were marked as" discontinued, quantities instock ony"

[danb]

More of the torch mando, I'm practicing with my new flash..

[danb]

This is pretty accurate in terms of color

[danb]

One more detail

[MML]

Who can't love them ole 3 points. Nice detail shot Dan.

[danb]

New from the Lens of our good friend Lowell "Banana" Levinger (http://www.vintageinstruments.com):

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/6255_front.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/6255_back_detail.jpg

[danb]

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/6255_fingerboard.jpg

[Scott Tichenor]

This 24 virzi F4 is sitting in my house at the moment. Unfortunately I don't own it, but I may. Belongs to very good friends. More of it at the Mandolin Archive (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3497).

[grandmainger]

Scott, it looks lovely. What's the story with the two dark tuner buttons? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Scott Tichenor]

No idea. Suspect they were a poorly chosen replacement at some point in its life.

[danb]

Scott & I discussed this- I'm not so sure they are replacements. There are quire a few of them in the same serial range with these "coffee-color" tuners, though I'm not aware of a set that mixed & matched them, it's not out of the question by any stretch.

It's the type of oddity that you just need to account for- different from most, but using parts that were clearly available on instruments with serial numbers so close they would have been in progress at the same time..

[danb]

The astute watchers of these various nitpick threads will notice something else is unusual/different from the norm. Anyone want to hazard a guess? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[grandmainger]

The astute watchers of these various nitpick threads will notice something else is unusual/different from the norm. Anyone want to hazard a guess? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif
Isn't the "The Gibson" a little higher than usual?

Regarding the tuner buttons, do we know if they actually were of different colours or if a batch has aged into this coffee brown?

[danb]

Could be different aging. Maybe these looked nearly the same when they went on? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Nothing more on the peghead.. check the body..

[fatt-dad]

Just out of curiosity, I would think that the virzi would be visible through the soundhole. Just where is it, posititioned directly under the bridge? I thought these things were 3 or so inches in diameter.

f-d

[grandmainger]

If you have a look at this mando: mandolinarchive.com/show_image.pl?3359 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_image.pl?3359) you'll see that it's just that little bit too far south to be seen head on. You need to look from the neck to see it.

[danb]

Fatt-Dad: they are visible at an angle, but not straight on:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/81564_virzi.jpg

[danb]

If memory serves the top of the virzi is in just about the same spot as the lateral brace, about 1-1.5" below the soundhole

[fatt-dad]

Cool photos danb! All this discussion on antiquity makes me hope for the lottery. I'd buy a few of these relics!

f-d

[danb]

Ok, my quiz.. all I was looking for is the PG clamp. It's a screw-type one, too early for this age.. should be a clamp guard. Scott tells me there are scars on the side showing there was once a clamp one fitted!

[bluesmandolinman]

hey Dan...your quiz... the screw type one is too early for the ´24 F-4 only, right?...

but not in general because for the F-5 they already started in ´23 right ?

You fooled us http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mad.gif http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

René

[danb]

More or less right Rene http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif The screw-in clamps don't appear on Gibsons with a serial below the 80000 range in general. You pretty much need to get an instrument finished in lacquer for the screw-style pgs if it's just the plain tortiseshell celluloid type. The style 5 instruments had their own guards from the start, so the hardware was developed in tandem! Some of the post-Loar style 5 instruments get a simple metal (instead of W/B/W binding-like material) clamp.

The metal one seems most common on >= 1925 ajrs. I reckon they had a lot of clamp style ones to use up

[danb]

Here's a cremona brown F4 I recently visited, note- March 31 '24 Loar on the left!

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/67236_compared.jpg

[danb]

Detail showing the first pass at the adjustible bridge. Note it's not as "T" shaped as Loar ones and has an adjusting and a locking nut

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/67236_bridge_detail.jpg

[danb]

Playing with new tripod. F40, 10 sec exposure at ISO 200 50mm away

[danb]

Kinda cool as it shows the the less than perfect flatness of the lacquer

[mandopete]

Stunning photo's Dan, you're getting really, really good at this!

[RI-Grass]

Peghead closeup ... Can you guess the model?

[RI-Grass]

Top of the back and heel ...
Quite a bit of crazing.

[RI-Grass]

Closeup of the base side of the oval hole. Alas, this top has been refinished...

[RI-Grass]

Front of the mando. Notice shadow where the painted on pick guard has been removed and a non-vintage pick guard added...

[RI-Grass]

Side shot ... where's the recurve? Wait ... where's the curve?!...

[RI-Grass]

1932 Gibson C1. About as non-Loar as you can get. At $25, it was half the price of an A1 when it was built. It sounds pretty cool, though ... alot of ring and sustain.
Thought you might like to see one.
Sal

[danb]

Took this shot today, already posted in the pegheads section

http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/uploads/post-15-29631-9100_peghead_again.jpg

[Rick Albertson]

My 1921 F-4.

[F5G WIZ]

Ralberts, Kewl picture!!

[jasona]

Cherry!

[Rick Albertson]

This will be the first in a series of posters of vintage mandolins. Any suggestions on other models and who might be willling to let me photograph them?

Rick

[Darryl Wolfe]

Check out the cool case with this very early F-2

F2 (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180047653082&ru=http%3A%2F%2Fsearch.ebay.com%3A80%2Fsearch%2Fse arch.dll%3Ffrom%3DR40%26satitle%3D180047653082%26f vi%3D1)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here we go

[Darryl Wolfe]

another

[Lowell Levinger]

Is that a viola case?

[Darryl Wolfe]

It appears to be identical to a Loar case with just a different shape to the interior. Maybe it was ordered for the mando later or maybe it is for some other instrument like a viola

[danb]

Messing around photographing this F2. Serial illegible, but FON puts it in a group of late 1922 instruments.. interesting, as the Nickel Truss rod cover like that puts it in late '21.

So either 68xxx or 70xxx

[Ken Waltham]

I think it's a viola case. See where the bows go...

[danb]

Another photo of the same F2

[danb]

The back is interesting. I thought all this flame would imply maple, but Jamie Wiens tells me he has seen birch with this much figure

[danb]

Another angle

[danb]

Another shot showing the aluminum saddle I just had fitted

[Ken Waltham]

Yeah, I think that's a birch back, Dan.
That is a lovely F2, nice find....
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[danb]

Thanks Ken (who is the source, of course).

[Ken Waltham]

Seriously, it is beautiful. Such nice condition, and a lovely colour. I think the saddle really looks cool on there, too. Sets the whole thing off, visually.
Ken

[rbmando]

The aluminum saddle is cool and I love the sound on my 1921 F4. Was the aluminum saddle used in late 1922? I thought it was a one year phenom in 1921.

[evanreilly]

Aluminum saddles. An erratic enigma, for sure.

[f5loar]

The AL saddle was Dave Apollon's best choice on his F5s over the years. Kinda gives it the original "heavy metal" sound long before KISS came around.

[danb]

Haven't made my mind up yet on this one.. it sounds very nice, though I'll do some serious A/B work with the wooden saddle before I stick with one. It's sure fun to experiment. I'll do the A/B sound clips thing for sure!

[danb]

The aluminum saddle is cool and I love the sound on my 1921 F4. Was the aluminum saddle used in late 1922? I thought it was a one year phenom in 1921.
Hi Bob,

Yes as far as I know it's only original to late '21. This aluminum saddle is a repro, and Loar style vs the original "I-Beam" aluminum saddle. Coincidentally, there are also a very few wooden adjustible saddles in that "I-Beam" style with a top locking nut too.. I reckon they started to sag so they were redesigned soon after!

This F2 is probably of that vintage, the nickel silver truss rod cover and FON place it in that area +- 1 year probably.

[danb]

Another unusual feature-ette on this one is that the inside of the scroll on the front is bound.. usually the body binding stops at the end of the "outside scroll" and that last inch or so is unbound on an F2. Straight on it's not possible to tell from an F4.

No point protectors though.

[danb]

final note-- the scroll is a little oblong. It's bulgy at around 11 o'clock compared to other F2/F4s I've seen. I looked at it right next to a '22 F4 I have in the apartment on loan from a friend and that one is nearly perfectly round! This one seems to have extra meat on it.

[markishandsome]

Could it have been re-bound at some time?

[danb]

Nah, not this one.. it's all obviously original. It's more odd to see the unusual shape to the scroll!

[bluesmandolinman]

here is a photo of David Lindley having some fun on a nice 3-pointer

[Darryl Wolfe]

This beautiful F-4 came to visit this weekend. He needed some bridge and set-up work. I thought "she" was nice enough to post a few pictures

48898

[Darryl Wolfe]

and the eye-popping back

[Darryl Wolfe]

full front (those are not marks on the mando, some strange glare in both pics)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Peghead. #This is another one of those "transvestite" mandolins. #The thin crazed lacquer finish, finish color, pickguard and bridge are 1925ish. #Serial number is 1918ish. #There are no signs of repair, no overspray on the label, case is 1925 vintage with red lining. #The wriggle end tuners have amber buttons and the bushings are the wider 1925 style. #Pickguard screws on and there are no mars from a previous clamp type mount. It also has a pearl nut which I believe is a Loar era feature not usually seen pre-Loar era (I could be wrong on that one just for the record)

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's another try at resizing the front shot. The first one is zagged out on the pixels

[cooper4205]

beautiful, those double-pots never get old. what kind of camera are you using to shoot with?

[Darryl Wolfe]

It's an older Sony DSC S85. 4Meg. I'm looking for something new as I see many others with better color rendition now.

[Bill Halsey]

..."It also has a pearl nut which I believe is a Loar era feature not usually seen pre-Loar era (I could be wrong on that one just for the record)"
Every F-4 I've owned, 1913 thru 1920, has a pearl nut. Just for the record. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[danb]

my 1909 F4's (presumably) original nut is pearl.. I think it was bone on anything but an F4 and pearl on the F4s

[Darryl Wolfe]

At least I covered myself. That was a detail I was not sure of..thanks

[Ken Waltham]

Darryl; Pearl nuts for sure. The colour looks too contrasting for a 1918, they tend to be more of a uniform stain, with subtle sunburst. If it is lacquer, with a screw on p/g clamp, it is definately not original.
The tuners and the bushings look fine for 1918, IMO. Amber buttons are not uncommon, and wriggle end is of course correct.
The bridge is 1921 or newer, and I notice the one pin for the p/g looks straight. If this is true, that is Loar period or later. The earlier ones have two finishing nails that are bent at an angle, and go down into the fretboard at an angle.
I see it appears there are two holes, but I see only the one pin.
Ken

[Darryl Wolfe]

Exactly Ken
-Too contrasting burst for 1918
-Definately lacquer, but the thin early type that it not so shiney
-Tuners could easily be 1918, but bushings are wider flanged
-old holes for two pin guard, but one pin existing for Loar period mount
-side/screw mount bracket
-24/25 case with the lighter red lining
-frets are on the large side, but appear original
-but most importantly - zero actual evidence of refin, no rounded off binding, no finish on label, no covered dents/impacts in the wood

All in all, a bit strange. #As I have stated before, there is a trend that indicates Gibson was doing something that we have not quite zeroed in on. #We tend to think all these mandolins were sent back to the factory for refinishing ect ect. #I think there is another answer that covers at least a portion of them. #I don't know what it is though.

[Michael Gowell]

re. pearl nuts...

my 1909 (3-point) F-2 has a pearl nut, so they were used earlier than 1914 and not just on F-4s.

[f5loar]

The answer might be that some repairmen at Gibson did a better job at refinishing and fixing things to new parts then others. Shouldn't be a problem to cover up the hole from the inside with a rag so you don't get that overspray look. Wouldn't you do that? If done in the mid 20's there were still plenty of good madolin luthiers left from Loar days. Maybe the regular repair guy was on vacation that week this one came in.

[HoGo]

Hi guys,
this one is not in the archives. Spectacular back/sides.
FON:11367. I could not read the serial #, but could be 67467, or the first two figures could also be 74...
Dan, PM me if you want pics for archive.
http://gjgt.sk/~minarovic/D01.jpg

[HoGo]

http://gjgt.sk/~minarovic/D03.jpg

[HoGo]

http://gjgt.sk/~minarovic/D05.jpg

[HoGo]

http://gjgt.sk/~minarovic/D09.jpg

[HoGo]

http://gjgt.sk/~minarovic/D11.jpg

[HoGo]

http://gjgt.sk/~minarovic/D19.jpg

This one shows interesting detail how rough the linings were left. The sawing traces are clearly visible even in this bad pic.

[danb]

Nice adrian,

probably starts 67 or it would have a truss rod and narrower fingerboard. Sure, send images if you have them. I'm behind on my updates on the archive but still accumulating them for the next mythical batch of free time http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

Does anyone else think that one might be refinished? What do you know HoGo

[danb]

Looks like a direct flash to me, that tends to make them look a little extra shiny and to make the color contrast stronger

[markishandsome]

The answer might be that some repairmen at Gibson did a better job at refinishing and fixing things to new parts then others.

Once you start making up things like this the simplicity of the "refinished at the factory" line sort of goes out the window. I don't see the point in clinging to this explaination for every one of these that pops up. Probably most of them were, but there are enough "transvestites" out there for there to be exceptions to the rule, don't you think?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks for the support Mark. #There are way too many instruments with anomolies for there to be only one answer. #Another odd observation is that the "transvestites" seem to be grouped in time periods. #That would mean they only did refinish work every 5 years or so at their whim:D

[Darryl Wolfe]

For example. #Here is another Loar, a '24. #Compare it to 73485 "transvestite Loar" in the classifieds. #It has the same finish, it had the same block inlay fingerboard and it has a later neck which is evident by the tuner locations. # There are four other similar Loars. #So are we to believe that six people sent their Loar back to the factory for new finish, fingerboard and neck during the same period.

[Darryl Wolfe]

73485

[Ken Waltham]

So are we to believe that four people sent their Loar back to the factory for new finish, fingerboard and neck during the same period.

In a word, yes.

[Darryl Wolfe]

We all have opinions, and I cannot prove mine yet. #When we find some 1934 sales receipts for a new F5 mandolin, serial number 73485, 76780 and such our thinking may change. #I find it interesting that while they were "so-called refinishing" this one, they opted to rebind it and remove the Virzi and label, redrill the peghead, replace the overlay or replace the neck, replace the fingerboard and generally make it look like a brand new early '30's F5.

[Darryl Wolfe]

and by the way, Mandola 76966 is the same way, someone sent it back for complete refinishing and all new parts. They even decided to remove the Loar label on this one when they refinished it

[Ken Waltham]

Same thing really with Alan Neiderland's F5. Neck, binding, finish...
I have owned two F5's refinished in the 50's. Alan's makes three. Did you see the Loar signed L5 on ebay, refinished in the 50's? That makes four just off the top of my head.
Are we going to expound that Gibson "held them back", and didn't finish them until the 50's?
That's just as ridiculous as thinking these ones left the factory that way.
It doesn't mean they are wonderful instruments, but, really, it's just that simple.
I am very concerned that people who read these pages, that are trying to learn something about these great American fretted instruments will get totally the wrong idea. Those wrong ideas.. or misinformation, could lead someone to make a very serious monetary mistake on the premise that " it's totally original", just left the factory later.

If you followed the Skinner auction, you can see the public's perception of refinnished, high end instruments. I stopped bidding at 60K, and it did look good to me, but, you cannot make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. There was #a thread a while back on resale value when buying a mandolin.
This gets a lot more serious.

I think these discussions are healthy, and needed, and I treasure Darryl's comments on all this stuff, but I will "die on the hilltop" in my opinion of this kind of thing. I am in no way trying to be nasty, but I want to protect you folks looking for info on these, the most fantastic of Mandolins.
I'm ducking now, and will close my comments on this topic.
Ken
Photo is a case in point.

[Ken Waltham]

Here's a great 1924 F4. Total refin.

[Ken Waltham]

Here's a beautiful 1921 F4. Total Refin.
None of these left the factory that way.
Ken

[Darryl Wolfe]

Ken, #We are talking two different subjects and I certainly appreciate your input. #There is no question that a 20's instrument with an obvious '50's finish did not leave the factory that way.

That is a much different case than a ~1923 instrument and my unproven theory that some could have left the factory in the early thirties, less than ten years later. #Let us not forget that it was identified recently that Gibson was on the brink of bankruptcy in 1923, and there was this thing called the Great Depression that started in 1929. #By virtue of the Eugene Claycomb "red" Fern Loar, we already know that Gibson had a 2 year supply of Loar signed mandolins sitting on the shelf. #It was not even ordered from the music store until late 1926.

I do not think I am dispelling false information any more than you seem to be insisting that any opinion other than yours is is absurd. #Should I be able to eventually prove my hunches correct, then your information could be considered misleading. #Furthermore, this is only a theory and does not try to include all examples. #I have not tagged any of these instruments as "totally original" nor have I implied that they are worth as much as an instrument that looks correct for it's age. #These are definitely oddball cases.

With that said, is the Red Fern Loar that was either refinished or finished red for the first time in 1926 a b####rd or is it original. It brought a record price at the time

[f5loar]

Maybe the red fern was bough new March '24 and the original owner in 1926 ordered a red F4 and sent the '24 back in to be matched to a new '26 F4. When something is wrong it's wrong. Now speculating on why it's wrong 75 or more years later is like finding a judge to conclude what AnnaNicoleSmith's wishes were for where she wanted to be buried after she died! We may never the truth to all things prescious.

[f5loar]

I will reflect back to the famous "PeeWee" '22 Loar in which it was found in a trash can with a broken neck. The neck was that of a mid-30's Fern. This was many years ago so things do happen to F5 necks to the point they need to be totally replaced and how you go about to replace that neck and basically send it back to the original owner in "as new" condition would be up to the repair guy and not so much Gibson's policies on warrenty work which I doubt they even had a policy. PeeWee not being the original owner broke the repaired F5 neck and said to heck with it and tossed it vs. a heafty repair bill from Gibson for not being original owner. Sorta like in a GM/Ford/Chrysler new car under warrenty that blows an engine. Do you replace the whole engine or rebuild it. Which is cheaper? One mystery in Loar F5 repair work was on the one that had the old holes plugged, new ones re-drilled for the then 30's tuners that would not fit Loar spacing, refinish the overlay and send it back to the customer with those old plugged holes visable. What was that repair guy thinking?
Or did Gibson even do that job? Maybe a violin luthier who was use to plugging holes for worn out violin pegs do the job and just ordered new Gibson tuners for an F5 not knowing they don't make them the same way 10 years later.
I don't consider that repair anymore bizzare then the guy at Gibson who thought it best for Earl to put on a new '49 BowTie fingerboard and toss out his nice vintage Granada fancy inlayed fingerboard vs. just putting in new frets. Did he think the new thick frets wouldn't fit the old style thin ones? I bet Earl is still scratching his head on that one. Inquiring minds want to know!

[markishandsome]

Showing pictures of refinished mandos doesn't prove anything. No one is disputing that many Gibsons, including Loars, had factory refins. Asking questions and speculating as to possible explanations is the only way we learn anything.

[danb]

The explanation that I currently think fits best is the "Dealer refurb". Frank Ford ones posted an anecdote around his documentation of one of the last 3-pointers, 10132:

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/10132_f2_in_case.jpg

Here we see a particularly strange anomaly, what is clearly a 3-point Gibson F2 in a Loar case. The explanation for this piece that the original owner gave Frank was that it was a factory refurbishment, to be refretted, refinished, and fitted with a new case.

I'm looking for the conversation unsuccessfully, but we got into talking about how teacher-dealers at the time would look for neglected or damaged instruments for refurbishment.. an obvious good source of profit for them.

Working to refurbish their old stock would also be in the best interests of the factory- much cheaper to make a new instrument from an existing one. I'd be very interested to look at old paperwork & receipts for this information. I expect that something of that nature will be very helpful to explain what went on.. especially a vintage receipt documenting a repair, for example.

[chris]

On a Loar F-5 there is a way to see if it was a refin or original finish. It has to be done under a black light and you have to know what to look for. Chances are even the best refin missed a tiny spot somewhere, Like under the fingerboard extension.
I put a unsigned Loar that had the lacquer finish and found a trace of varnish on it. So it wasn't a original Lacquer finished unsigned.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Another thought might be comformance to factory specs. It could be possible that as they changed catalog specs, a few unsold/in-stock intruments were refinished or otherwise modified to conform to the latest specs at pictured and stated in the catalog. (ie gold parts, lacquer finish, block inlay and such)

Again, theories and thoughts simply intended to challenge the contention that all of these instruments were sent back to the factory by the owner to re-do. Obviously some were.

F5LOAR, the Red Fern Loar. Henry Garris had all the original paperwork showing where it was ordered on one date and received on another. Both dates were within a couple of months of each other in mid to late 1926. Eugene Claycomb paid full list price plus a token fee for the custom order. He received a March 31, 1924 signed and dated Red finished Loar F-5 with a 1924 serial number.

[markishandsome]

How many other Loars come with the original paperwork? Do they typically show purchase dates that line up with signature dates?

[Bob Sayers]

I find this thread so interesting. I'm a cultural anthropologist (as well as a long-time amateur musician), so it seems natural to look to the original context in which these instruments were owned and played. Indeed, I think that Dan B. has so far offered the most plausible explanation(s) for the anomalous instruments. Gibson presumably sold--and may very well have lent--some of its newest models (F-5s, L-5s, etc.) to noted players of the day in return for their endorsements. (Hasn't that always been the case?) As the instruments developed problems, they came back to the company periodically for replacement or refurbishment. I doubt that anyone at the time was particularly sensitive to preserving the "historical integrity" of the instruments. So they got new fingerboards, new tuners, new finishes--whatever was available and whatever it took to make them functionally and cosmetically whole again. I'm willing to bet that there was a little corner of the Gibson shop where, periodically, one of the workers would turn his attention to a batch of instruments in for repairs and refurbishment.

Just as an aside: Back in the late '60s when I was in college, I managed to scrape together all of $300 which I hoped would be enough to purchase my first "good" guitar--I was thinking a slightly-used D-28. Improbable as it now seems, I turned up not just a good Martin, but a wonderful 1942 herringbone D-28 that someone had consigned to a local music store. It needed a new bridge and the crazed finish and wear around the soundhole bothered me a bit. So I wrote to Martin and asked how much it would cost to have the thing completely refurbished: new finish, Grover Rotomatics to replace the butterbean tuners, the works. Fortunately, the figure they quoted me was a good deal more than I could afford (in fact, more than I paid for the guitar!). So I was saved from making a colossal mistake. But that was typical for the times.

Bob

[f5loar]

Ah, but had you been the original owner of that prewar Martin and needed those repairs in the 60's at no cost to you , then you would have done it! And that has happened to many prewars going back to Martin. They would retop vs. repair a crack. New neck vs. straighten old one, etc. Gibson had that same mentality in the 50's and 60's with no regard for the value of a prewar investment.

[Michael Gowell]

I agree, but that value is real only now, not then. #Back then guitars and mandolins were just "used" rather than "vintage."

Two associated questions -

Who was the first dealer (or player) to promote the "vintage" concept? #We usually hear about George Gruhn or Stan Jay & his long-departed partner (and what was the story on that guy?) #Anyone else noteworthy?

Were violins the only other instruments revered for their "vintage" qualities? #And how far back?

[Bob Sayers]

Exactly right, f5loar. I remember that time.

Bob

[Bob Sayers]

Maine Michael, I can remember a couple of dealers in vintage stringed instruments that pre-date the Gruhn/Mandolin Bros. era. There was a famous place called the Fret Shop on the south side of Chicago run by a guy named Liebenguth, as I recall. He had some great pearl Martins. And, of course, Lundberg's in Berkeley, California. And maybe Vintage Instruments in Philadelphia; I don't know exactly when that came along.

Bob

[Bob Sayers]

Oh, I forgot: There was a violin dealer named Sid Sherman in an upstairs shop on Michigan Avenue in the Chicago Loop. In addition to his super high-end violins (genuine Strads, Amatis, etc.), he had a glass wall case full of vintage mandolins. Some were Italian and, according to Sid, were worth big bucks. But he always had a pristine F-4 or A-4 in there, too. The other thing I remember about Sid: He was a very dignified little man; but he had hanging by the door a picture of himself playing violin in a Hollywood cowboy band during the 1930s. We always thought that was really cool!

Bob

[AlanN]

Ken brings up my Loar, I will tell what I know, based on Gilchrist, Dexter Johnson, Grisman and Charlie D. info:

73675, label signed by Loar on 13-Jun-23. Went back to the factory in the 50's, presumably for a re-fin. At that time, the body binding (front and back) was re-done into a wider motif. This apparently was in vogue at the time. The instrument was re-finished in lacquer. I have photos of it in this condition. A subsequent owner had a meatier neck built for it by Randy Wood. In 1998, Gilchrist re-installed the original neck, which had travelled with the thing. He also re-did the body binding to Loar spec and re-finished the whole thing in a period varnish, cremona stain. Even the 'new' binding was appropriately given an aged look. Someone described it as looking like it must have looked in 1923.

Steve G. worked his magic, and she is indeed a marvel.

[Links]

I also find this thread very interesting. As a collector and player of mostly Gibson banjos, but also older Martin Guitars and Gibson mandolins, I have always been interested in Gibson's manufacturing process.

We know that Gibson built banjos in "batches", and that most of the batch numbers were for similar, if not exactly, the same instruments. For example, all of the banjos from 9027 were TB-4 archtops tenors. However, as you get into the 1930's when the popularity of the banjo was starting to wane, Gibson was likely to do anything. During this period, Gibson built many "floorsweep" models in which they used any component that might be laying around in various bins. Batch numbers, although fairly reliable, could have also been all over the map.

Of course, banjos parts and components are much more interchangable, and basically bolted together, but it is certainly not beyond the realm of believability to think that mandolins could have suffered the same fate as banjos. I suspect that a number of mandolins (probably not a large number as there were not that many being produced) were built that defied the conventional model specifications. I might look at anything beyond the norm sceptically, but sure wouldn't presume that it could not be legit. It is my understanding that someone has Gibson shipping records for banjos (and could possibly include mandolins and guitars), but at present are not sharing the information. Hopefully, they will be available soon and clear up some cloudy issues.

[HoGo]

I'm a bit late here. Good eye, Darryl.
Yes the F4 I posted was refinished. And very poorly IMO. There are even some bubbles in the finish and some cracks where the finish is way too thick. Also looks like the back was sanded pretty thin in the center (it created a flat spot where it sits on the bottom of the case). Some other reapirs are visible, too.
Dan, I will send you the pics when I have some free time.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks the vote of confidence HOGO. If it looks like a duck, it usually is a duck

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here is my new "distressed" label that I put in the '23 snake the other night

[Darryl Wolfe]

another view with more accurate color

[mandolooter]

nice...but distressing! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Darryl Wolfe]

nice...but distressing! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif
It actually looks just like the original one in my '25 snake. That one has a couple of stains, a lifted slightly torn edge, ect ect

[Darryl Wolfe]

'25 label

[danb]

Messing around with the camera again

http://www.mandolinarchive.com/images/9100_handel_macro.jpg

[Jim Hilburn]

You can see that the wire in the loops has been flattened where it crosses itself, indicating that it took a fair amount of force to press it into the plastic.

[Jim Hilburn]

Are the flower and star inlays missing in the dark spaces?

[mandolooter]

So Darryl...how did ya distress the label? It is nearly identical to the other one.

[Jerry Byers]

You can see that the wire in the loops has been flattened where it crosses itself, indicating that it took a fair amount of force to press it into the plastic.
Unless they were looped and flattened prior to setting them.

[cooper4205]

here's my contribution to the thread

# 80377 1923 F2
http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/wesb4217/MAR07frnt3.jpg

[cooper4205]

http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/wesb4217/MAR07clsfrnt2.jpg


http://i61.photobucket.com/albums/h75/wesb4217/MAR07headstk1.jpg

[Ken Waltham]

I haven't checked any lists, but, I think that serial number is a little high to be a '23.
They would be like a 72XXX to 74XXX I think, off the top of my head. 75"s are in 1924, this one could be a late, late '24, or more likely a '25.
Again, this is me just in from a nightshift with no serial number list, just memory.
The logo is not a 23 logo style, I don't believe.

[danb]

Yes Ken's right.. 803xx is either Dec '24 by the last Loar signatures, or Jan '25 range. Some of the "unsigned" batch (varnish F5s with no signature label) hit that range roughly..

[danb]

Are the flower and star inlays missing in the dark spaces?
No, they're there.. just a slightly odd focus thing going on there. They are inset

[Darryl Wolfe]

So Darryl...how did ya distress the label? #It is nearly identical to the other one.
I have paper that is close in color to a clean aged original. I used an exacto knife to pull a wrinkle/tear or two in the label while the glue was still fresh. I mixed one tbl instant coffee with 3 tbls water and just dropped some on with the eraser end of a pencil for the little stain

[mandolooter]

wow...sounds pretty simple...I had imagined a lot lengthier process.

[cooper4205]

I haven't checked any lists, but, I think that serial number is a little high to be a '23.
They would be like a 72XXX to 74XXX I think, off the top of my head. 75"s are in 1924, this one could be a late, late '24, or more likely a '25.
Again, this is me just in from a nightshift with no serial number list, just memory.
The logo is not a 23 logo style, I don't believe.
really? the mandolin archive lists it as '23- you think its a mistake (on the archive)?

i just went back looked at the list on the archive, instead of searching for the number, and the SN is in the middle of the other 1924's. so i guess it's a '24 F2 and not a '23. in fact it looks like the last F2 before loar quit signing the F5's (SN 80416) so i guess that settles it.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Very very late '24 or early 1925. #In fact there are earlier numbered F5's that are not signed, and there most likely is no exact correlation between the serial numbers and the signature dates for all cases. Theory has it that the labels were signed in groups for batches and placed in the mandos at a finished stage. Definately not 1923

[cooper4205]

thanks guys- is there any way to pinpoint the date, or is it mostly educated guesses?

[Darryl Wolfe]

coop..I edited my response slightly

[danb]

really? the mandolin archive lists it as '23- you think its a mistake (on the archive)?
Oops yes, my mistake! I've corrected it.

Cooper- to some extent all of these are educated guesses. Loar signed the master model instruments on a label that came with a month and year date on it.. to some extent those signed instruments form the basis for the serial number to year correlations I put on the archive. I've also been working to correct what I feel are slight mistakes in some of the earlier charts- most Gibsons numbered 2500-12000 get bumped forward a few years from what I think was their real date of manufacture.

The process is a slow one- every so often some interesting paperwork will turn up, either a date stamp in a catalog or an original receipt with an instrument, that forces us to re-evaluate these listings again.

For the 1922-1925 range, it's mostly checking proximity to a known signed Loar instrument.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Dan is right on. #The signature dates in style 5 instruments are the only correlation. #Finding sales receipts and such other paperwork is all anyone can go on at this late stage of the game.

[danb]

This F2 is a neat piece, it brakets the period and shows up right at the end of Lloyd's stint at Gibson. I had 81564 for a while, which was a virzi A4 snakehead.. that one had a lacquer topcoat on it so it showed signs of the post-Loar or what is called the "Fern" period (from the peghead overlays on the post-Loar F5s). You could probably go so far as to say "December 1924 or January 1925" if you wanted to keep it in the range of the serial numbers on known Loars.. The last signed Loar label we have is 80416, which is dated Dec 1 1924. I suppose I've made a second mistake now, and I should change the year in the archive to 1924 now!

[cooper4205]

thanks for clearing that up guys.

i don't see how you guys have the patience to keep track of all those mando's and remember all the confusing details, but i sure am glad you do. keep it up

[Darryl Wolfe]

coop. one other thing to keep in mind is that "The Gibson" script on yours. #As Ken mentions, it is later. #By being later we can almost certainly take the instrument into 1925. #Yours is the earliest serial number I have seen it on. #I have only seen a few of that pattern and they are usually on 81xxx and 82xxx mandolins. The instrument also appears to have "worm over" tuners. Those are simply not seen on '24's to my knowlege.

But, again, nothing is exact in this science.

[cooper4205]

the tuner thing is interesting. the first mandolin i could find with the worm-overs (like mine has) was 75079 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3449), but then the next A-model's listed have worm-under gears and i couldn't find another picture of the worm-overs until number 77126 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?205). these seem to be the exact ones on mine

the first F2 i could find with tuners like mine was from '24 as well, 78221 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?2798), which looks almost identical, even the headstock inlay seems to resemble it

the next one listed 78304 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3053) looks to have a slightly different inlay and the worm-under tuners


i noticed while looking that the A-styles seem to start using the worm-under gears fairly regularly for a few of the A-styles (low-ends) from SN 77126 and then as soon as it gets to 78xxx, they go back to worm-under except for the F2 linked above that looks close to mine.

i see why it's hard to pin down exact dates on these things.

i wonder why the of the worm-over gears spread in amongst the worm-under ones?

[Darryl Wolfe]

good question coop., and good catch on the fact that there are some worm overs in 1924. #For signed Loar F-5's there is only one known worm-over style tunered mandolin.

Yes they are "splattered" and that is pretty much why I feel that pegheads are drilled after the mandos are finished and complete. #That would support a suggestion that they may not necessarily have been strung up and sent out the door in serialized order. #I will now go look at your references and I'm sure there will be additional anomolies with the specific mandos

[Darryl Wolfe]

My report back: #
75079 has replaced, newer worm over tuners and the peghead is drilled for worm under style
77126 has replaced older worm over tuners, peghead is drilled for worm under style.
78221 is original with original worm over tuners, however, it like yours has the 1925 style inlay, metal pickguard bracket and lacquer finish, all indicative of 1925 or later

So, my point is on 78221 and yours, other features for 1925 are present also, not just a simple set of tuners ect

[cooper4205]

is mine a varnish or a lacquer, if you can tell from a picture. it's not as shiny as in the pics i posted on the other page.

sorry to keep bugging you about it, just trying to find out all i can about this thing and what some of the subtle differences are between the different years of manufacturing when it comes to these things. thanks alot

[Darryl Wolfe]

I'm guessing lacquer based on the dark and abrupt sunburst and how dark the binding is. The pictures alone are not enough to tell. Usually, varnished mando lose (or do not have) the finish over the pearl script and binding. Yours is there.

[danb]

Could you take a close up of the center of the scroll viewed from a slightly oblique angle? That's where I look usually for lacquer signs. What did Charles say it was? He certainly knows his stuff!

[cooper4205]

i'm at work now, but i'll try and get a shot up when i get out of class tomorrow. i guess i could also take it by Will Parsons' shop and see what his opinion is on type of finish.

I can almost swear Charles told me it was a varnish finish, but i was looking at a couple of F2's and F4's at the time and can't remember 100% for sure. i took it for granted it was varnish, since i thought it was a '23 until earlier today!

thanks again for your time fellas

[danb]

Well again, this isn't always black & white! Some of the July 9 Loars appear to have a light lacquer topcoat sprayed over the varnish. I've had this conversation with a couple of builders, and definitely feel my limits of understanding.. but the lacquer topcoat sprayed on is a sealer, and could help the varnish cure faster. Maybe it was an experiment on the july 9 loars.. maybe it came back later. Usually the way the finish patinas is a little different.. lacquer seems to craze with larger space between cracks, varnish forms millions of tiny fractures.

I look at that scroll area because sometimes lacquer is thicker, you can see the relief of the finish like the curvature of an eyeball there. Then again, thin lacquer is harder to spot, maybe a little extra sheen or shine to it.. I'd be curious to hear from folks in the know how they spot it too!

[JimRichter]

I've had a lot of nice instruments, but this is the one I still miss terribly.

I owned it about 5 or 6 years ago. It's a 27 F4. Was nearly mint, except for a repaired heel crack.

I never had any photos of it. I was searching stuff through the Wayback Machine internet archive the other day, and found these photos from Tony Williamson's site (I had traded the mando to Tony for a Gibson Sam Bush, which, of course, I no longer own and in way compared to the beauty and tone of this F4).

Jim

[JimRichter]

The exquisite back. can't recall the serial number of it.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Wow Jim, That is special

[JimRichter]

This was a nice little 1914 F2 that I played for awhile. The blacktop is a refin.

Jim

[JimRichter]

Wow Jim, That is special
If only I'd known then what I know now. I don't mean in the sense of it's vintage value, but rather where I'd be going as far as my mandolin/musical direction. At that time I decided I needed a "Bluegrass" instrument and always loving the sound of Bush's mandolin, traded with Tony. But over time, my blues playing as well as my love of old time fiddle tunes has taken over taking me back to oval holes. If only I still had that mandolin.

But it seems I'm getting myself a nice '26 F2 w/ some pedigree, so things have almost come full circle. That was part of the reason for looking at some of the photos I have of oval holes I used to have.

Jim

[squirrelabama]

Jim- I almost bought that F4 from Tony!! I already had a '24 and was smitten (below). Wanted to start a harem, but my wife was agianst that idea....:D

[squirrelabama]

Helps to attach these things.

[MML]

Ok you guys stop posting those pics, your making me miss my ole 21 F4 I sold recentley.
Wouldn't it be great if we could keep them all! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[Driver8]

What a lovely mandolin,one like that black F2 or a three pointer would be my dream instrument,beautiful.

[f5loar]

Sounds like your wife would rather have another house then a Loar era mandolin with F holes http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[carleshicks]

here are a few vintage Gibson's, well one isn't

[carleshicks]

here are the headstocks

[carleshicks]

here is the 22 f-4 case and the 25 a-4 case they are in pretty rough shape.
Bill Monroe signed the inside of my A-4 Case when I was 11 or 12 years old. He played a few songs on it and told me to hang on to it it was a good one.

[carleshicks]

here they are closed

[carleshicks]

here is the original price tag and case key for the A-4

[JimRichter]

My current mandolin:

1926 F2. John Reischman bought it in Alberta Canada from the widow of the original owner. Michael Heiden put on a radiused fretboard, otherwise original.

I haven't played an oval regularly in 5 or 6 years. It's definitely fun getting back into it. Been wearing out my Jethro and Norman Blake records this week!

Jim

[JimRichter]

back

[cooper4205]

She's a beauty, Jim. I can't wait to hear it on one of your youtube clips

[MandoSquirrel]

Congrats on the arrival, look forward to clips, also! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/mandosmiley.gif

[Calvin]

WOW!

[delsbrother]

How about this pic off the 'bay? (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=230155914693&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting) Love the binding, inlaid 'guard, and headstock damage!

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m278/durbien/1ccc_3.jpg

[danb]

Here are a few macro shots from today on the 3pt

[sprucetop1]

Here's my mandolins. F2 no. 16661 A4 no. 21171 and A1 no. 88214, all with orig. cases. A 1976 GTR F5 has crept into the front of the pic.....

[woodwizard]

Nice macro shots there danb! and that's a nice looking love seat full of sweet things there for sure. I am so jealous.

[danb]

Sometimes I get something for the archive that just blows me away. This is H4 86134 (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3814), and it is really a hum-dinger. It shows loar-period peghead inlay (slanted) so may have been a hold-over. The pictures really do the talking here

[danb]

Here's something really cool, a photo of the Gibson Parsons St Kalamazoo factory under construction, courtesy of Stan Werbin at Elderly

[Scott Tichenor]

I don't often get to post anything in this area some I'm happy to share pictures of my newly acquired 1924 A2Z, serial #74956. This is really a spectacular find, acquired from the classifieds. :)

40076 40077 40078

[f5loar]

And a blonde nonetheless. They say blondes have more fun. No doubt you will plenty fun with this blonde.
Beautiful example of a great model built in an even greater year. No doubt the Loar master was overlooking this one when it was built to last generations.

[sgarrity]

That looks like one exceptionally clean A2Z. If it's the one I'm thinking of, that was a darn good deal on it too!

[Scott Tichenor]

It's official. I've had it with the stock market and my 401K (201k?) and am turning my attention to other methods of stimulating the economy... the mandolin economy that is. :grin:

My newest toy which received a proper hour-long whomping on the patio this evening after decades (my guess) of sitting idle. There'll be none of that around this house. Just needed a proper bath, new strings, a visit to the beauty parlor, a bit of love and someone to treat it special. This baby is experiencing some new music it's never before played (OK, that's a guess). Mon ami, you found the right man. Alright, stop it, you two.

Bit of info from the Mandolin Archive (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/perl/show_mando.pl?3845). My camera battery ran out in shooting these pix or I'd have more. Dan tells me this is a number or two off a Loar. Maybe someone can chime in on that. This little guy sounds just terrific.

#72201, 1923 Gibson Snakehead

40944 40945

[JEStanek]

That's a good 10th Anniversary Present.

Jamie

[Darryl Wolfe]

Here's the latest addition to my stable

[Darryl Wolfe]

and this incredibly clean H2 mandola

[Michael Gowell]

Congrats, Daryl, especially on that snakehead A-4. Don't I recall some discussion about the scarcity - some even claimed nonexistence - of snake A-4's?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Thanks...no it would be snake A-3's that maybe somewhere out there is one of them, but we doubt it. A3's overlapped the start of snakeheads, but one has never been seen.

The A4's are quite scarce similar to A2z's

[Bill Halsey]

The A4's are quite scarce similar to A2z's

Very rare, very desirable, AND very fine condition... great score, Darryl!

[sgarrity]

That A4 is mighty fine looking. And it was a darn god deal too!

[Darryl Wolfe]

Holy cow, I got it and it is even cleaner than expected. As far as a good deal, it worked out fine as I did a straight trade to get it

[Glassweb]

How's she sound Darryl?

[Darryl Wolfe]

Next to my '25 A2. This thing is monster loud and does not back down when you drive it. Very un-oval hole A model like. The '25 A2 sounds very much the same as did two other '25 straight A's that Gruhn had. I believe there is something different on these '25's. Maybe it is the first use of the newer soft lacquer finish or maybe they are voiced out a little different. Serial is 82619, a bit after the A2 81547

[f5loar]

Looks near mint to me in the first photos. While the A4 from this era are indeed rare to find I never understood why Gibson did not follow the pattern of other 4s like the F4 and have a bound headstock. It's the same as the 2Z with a little flower thrown in the middle of the head. A little fancier hole marque. A slightly extended fingerboard and that's the difference.

[squirrelabama]

It's been a while since I've posted. Finally got off my rear and had a little photo session today! 1924 L-3; 1925 H-4 and 1924 F-4. Enjoy!

[squirrelabama]

one more...
1913 K-1; 1924 A2=Z

[sgarrity]

That's quite a collection. Thanks for sharing!

[squirrelabama]

couple more......

[Bill Halsey]

Terrific collection -- thanks for sharing the great pix!

[squirrelabama]

Thanks! Glad you liked them. They sure are fun to play and listen to!

[fatt-dad]

Yeah, I got an old Gibson and an older father (he's c. 1919, it's 1920).

http://hphotos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs325.snc3/28842_1289150352705_1348602705_661330_4366174_n.jp g

[Darryl Wolfe]

What are we looking at on the peghead of the L3 Geoff?

[Mike Black]

What are we looking at on the peghead of the L3 Geoff?

Good eye Darryl, that's a good question. What is that? Inquiring minds want to know. :)

[squirrelabama]

Darryl & Mike- I have no idea what it is called, and have never seen it on a Mando ever. The serial # is 73690. While this might be '23 or '24 (Darryl?) the place ment of the truss rod cover makes me think the guitar was made earlier, kind of transitional. Or at least the neck was made earlier. Here is a shot of the HS. I'd be curious to know if anyone is familiar with this inlay,and what it is commonly called. Thanks! -Geoff

[danb]

Darryl & Mike- I have no idea what it is called, and have never seen it on a Mando ever. The serial # is 73690. While this might be '23 or '24 (Darryl?) the place ment of the truss rod cover makes me think the guitar was made earlier, kind of transitional. Or at least the neck was made earlier. Here is a shot of the HS. I'd be curious to know if anyone is familiar with this inlay,and what it is commonly called. Thanks! -Geoff

I think that's the L3 "snowflake". Here're a couple from the archive, one "uncut" by the truss rod


62139


62140

[Darryl Wolfe]

Well, I'll be tarred and feathered...I've never seen such

[danb]

Did Luke just teach Yoda a new trick? :grin:

Geoff- I reckon you're right by the way, it's just like the A3 inlay shows up "cut" by the truss pocket on the first examples. I have at least one L3 later with a truss rod, but no inlay on the peghead

[Bill Halsey]

For mandolin content, we'll have to imagine one hidden under a workbench... well, Dan did say 'Vintage Gibson Shot', so here goes anyway...

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Photo courtesy of Clarence L. Miller Family local history room, Kalamazoo Public Library.

This is from a packet of reprinted cards available at the Kalamazoo Public Library. No indication of copyright, so I'll put it here. Taken c. 1934 inside the Gibson "daylight" factory at 225 Parsons St., built in 1917.

The reverse states:

"In the 1930s the Gibson Guitar Company of Kalamazoo, Michigan, was the largest factory in the world devoted exclusively to making stringed musical instruments. In 1934, the company's 250 workers produced about 200 instruments each day, most of which were guitars."

[brunello97]

Great photo, Bill, thanks for posting it. I love these Gibson factory photos. I have a KM11 from just a couple years later, it is nice to see the context. In the heart of the Depression, Gibson had 250 workers employed. My KZoo is a nice axe, a credit to their workmanship at all levels.

Mick

[mando1man]

Big mandolin, regular mandolin
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/images/attach/jpg.gifndolin.

[Bill Snyder]

Your link doesn't do any good, just goes to the Mandolin Cafe "File Not Found" page.