1934 F5 copy [Archive] - Mandolin Cafe Forum

danb

Mar-02-2006, 6:17pm

The sound is pretty decent considering. I'd still take an F4 from Gibson over this one, but it could use a little setup too. With a properly fit bridge (maybe that one on there is later..) it has some definite potential. The F-holes are quite slender compared to the '26 too. Pretty respectable though ,has some elements of the F5 sound you can hear in there vs the F4 or oval-hole tone. Didn't check the inside for bracing pattern either, though I'm kicking myself a bit now over that!

So whaddaya know. To me, it looks like the signature info in there plus feaures add up, I can't think of anything off the top of my head to say that would make it not likely a 1934 instrument.

danb

Mar-02-2006, 6:44pm

Here's a Windows AVI video clip (http://www.mandolinarchive.com/sound_clips/MVI_1657.AVI) from my point & shoot of Phil playing a tune on it

f5loar

Mar-02-2006, 6:54pm

Looks closer to an H5 mandola than the F5 mandolin.
At least they didn't use the Gibson name anywhere.

MML

Mar-02-2006, 7:42pm

Thats a pretty cool looking F5 copy.I like the elongated proportions, captures the look but shows some originality. Nice to see one so old, seems that most F5 copies date from much later. I once found a F5 copy from the 40's or 50's made by some Italian maker from NYC, didn't buy it because the workmanship was very crude,but still was an interesting piece.

Jim Garber

Mar-02-2006, 9:01pm

Well, from your pics, I would say there is no mistaking that for a Gibson. Aside from the inlays etc, it seems that the proportions are different, longer body and different f-hole placement as well as shape of the scroll and peghead.

BTW that bridge looks similar to one I have on a Weymann-labelled mandolin I have that is a dead-ringer for a Strad-O-Lin.

Jim

Bob Sayers

Mar-02-2006, 9:03pm

Dan,

I wonder who would have wanted to duplicate an F5 in the 1930s--or even knew at the time that these rare birds existed. #The mandolin orchestra crowd? #Maybe. #But F4s and A-models seem to have been more popular with those folks--and vastly more plentiful! #Bill Monroe is most widely credited with introducing the F5 to country music. #But he didn't have his until 1943, though he did play an F7 before that. #

Then there's the issue of the Florentine design. #Judging from what I've learned here on the Cafe, it's not the easiest thing to make even a rough approximation of an F5 from scratch. #An amateur builder in the 1930s likely wouldn't have had many pictures at hand to copy--let alone a genuine F5. He also probably wouldn't know much about tone bar bracing or creating a raised fingerboard.

My instinct, therefore, tells me that this was made in the 1950s or 1960s when bluegrass was really catching fire with rural musicians. #And original Gibson F5s--even postwar F5s--were either very scarce or very expense. #(I seem to recall that a new F5 cost around $1,000 in 1965--a lot of money compared to about $400 for a new Martin D-28 guitar.) #Isn't that about the time when the first good F5 copies were starting to appear? #

Just my two cents worth. #Feel free to tell me that I've got it completely wrong!

Bob

thistle3585

Mar-02-2006, 10:08pm

Bob said, "I wonder who would have wanted to duplicate an F5 in the 1930s--or even knew at the time that these rare birds existed."

What about an employee or repair person? They would have had the knowledge and skill. Just speculation, but worth the mention.

Jim Garber

Mar-02-2006, 10:27pm

I wonder who would have wanted to duplicate an F5 in the 1930s--or even knew at the time that these rare birds existed. The mandolin orchestra crowd? Maybe. But F4s and A-models seem to have been more popular with those folks--and vastly more plentiful!
I think there were enough f5s around even at that time for folks wo want them. Maybe this was made for someone who did want an F5 but could not afford a Gibson. There were plenty of makers at the time who could undercut the big guys. Even D'Angelico started out as a copyist of Gibson instruments and I bet his early ones were cheaper than what Gibson charged.

All you had to do in those days was to look and see an F5 in a catalog or magazine ad. "Hey, make me one like that."

Jim

PaulD

Mar-02-2006, 10:31pm

Looks closer to an H5 mandola than the F5 mandolin.
At least they didn't use the Gibson name anywhere.
... or flowerpot! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

That's funky... everythings just a little off (scroll a little longer, peghead pointier). I wonder if the builder was working from pictures rather than having an instrument in hand. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

Thanks for sharing the pics!

pd

stevem

Mar-02-2006, 10:31pm

It's a very interesting mando. I remember seeing it a few weeks ago. Does anyone know of any other pre 50's F's, besides Gibsons? This is the first I've heard of (if it's legit.)

danb

Mar-03-2006, 2:52am

Yes, it still seems improbable.. how widespread was the knowledge of the F5 back then? But.. nothing really leapt up at me and said "later work"..

AlanN

Mar-03-2006, 6:41am

Certainly is loud.

fatt-dad

Mar-03-2006, 7:41am

I had a tailpiece like that on my Kalamazoo army-navy (I think it was a K-11 or something).

f-d

Jim Garber

Mar-03-2006, 8:03am

I've seen this tailpiece in period catalogs.. note the wood quality too
This is one of the few non-Gibson, older style tailpieces still available. Stew-Mac (http://www.stewmac.com/shop/Bridges,_tailpieces/Mandolin_tailpieces/Scalloped_Mandolin_Tailpiece.html) carries them.

Jim

mandopete

Mar-03-2006, 9:00am

Certainly is loud.
A real "pre-war banjo-killer" !

Darryl Wolfe

Mar-03-2006, 11:26am

I think the mandolin has alot of really cool mojo. #It definately displays the age and period that it was made, and is actually a fairly historically important piece of work. It captures the elements of an F5, it was obviously not intended to be fake or clone, but still pays homage to design of an F5. #I believe we would be hard pressed to find another instrument of it's sort that was not made sometime in the 60's or later. #Mr. Wilson certainly deserves some piece of historical "mandolin lutherie" mention, note or footnote in the whole deal.

Darryl Wolfe

Mar-03-2006, 12:11pm

I can't get this mando off my mind. #This thing is really quite interesting and important. #Consider the following. #To my knowlege all F5 "homemade mandolins" essentially started in the 60's with Bob Givens, Randy Wood, Mr Fowler and Tom Morgan, Wayne Henderson ect. #Prior to that a few folks had converted F4's, (Tom Morgan and Bob White in Columbus OH). #All of these mandolins were "for Bluegrass" and related to the Bill Monroe phenomenon.

Bill Monroe turned 23 the same month this mando was made. # A '24 Lloyd Loar mandolin was only 10 years old. Like a '96 F5L or Gilchrist

This Mr. Joe Wilson almost certainly took it upon himself to build this mandolin for totally different motives than we are accustomed to. #The style of sound we like and hear from an F5 mandolin essentially had not been developed. #He just about had to be paying homage to people like Dave Appolon, Wm Place and such and wanted a mandolin like theirs. #How cool is that.

MML

Mar-03-2006, 12:27pm

I think you summed it up very well Darryl.

Scotti Adams

Mar-03-2006, 12:27pm

..Im with ya Darryl..

Darryl Wolfe

Mar-03-2006, 12:38pm

"It’s news to me that anyone would have done an F-5 style copy this early. I’m a skeptic since it’s easy to fake a name and date, but maybe it’s a piece of history."

George Gruhn

Tom C

Mar-03-2006, 12:41pm

Who is Joe Wilson? .... found this (related to determining an instruments authenicity ...Goto bottom on page (http://www.edromanguitars.com/rant/ebay.htm)

Joe Wilson is a very well known Luthier. He has been repairing guitars professionally since 1964. He also owns and operates an authorized Fender service center. Precision guitar Mt. Pleasant SC

http://www.edromanguitars.com/resources/images/joethumbnail.jpg

Maybe his father made it as this guy looks to young?

danb

Mar-03-2006, 12:45pm

It's pretty interesting in person. The binding is grained ivoroid that would match what you'd find on a national- grain up and down rather than horizontal with the line of the binding.. the tuners were *probably* Gibson A machines filed down to fit. That clamshell tailpiece appears in some ancient catalog I've seen.. the case has a very home-made look to it (all those rivets!). The work is pretty good overall, though not up to modern standards.. and the tone was interesting, but it's more a visual homage than an acoustic one.

But what about the bound f-holes.. that's the detail I'm stumbling on.. were there any examples of this on anything that would predate 1934? Quite an interesting piece. I have a few more pictures, but not much to add that isn't already there.. I guess I can't think of a good reason it's not a '34 yet, so I'm fishing for that at the moment!

Is the Joe Wilson pictured above contactable?

trevor

Mar-03-2006, 12:52pm

Dan,
The f hole bindings could have been added later???

Scotti Adams

Mar-03-2006, 12:52pm

..Hmmm Tom..now youve got me thinking in the other direction some...and the bound F holes that Dan pointed out kinda makes me wonder too...

danb

Mar-03-2006, 1:05pm

Looked pretty original to the piece.. though the fholes were pretty small (added binding makes them seem smaller you see?)

Darryl Wolfe

Mar-03-2006, 1:06pm

Gibson Super 400 1934, bound F-holes, D'Angelico 1932 Bound F-holes

danb

Mar-03-2006, 1:07pm

By the way- the body shape and contours are more evocative of a 3pt. I don't think the builder had an F5 to copy, except perhaps in a photo

Jim Garber

Mar-03-2006, 2:35pm

Is the Joe Wilson pictured above contactable?
I am sure he his since he works at Ed Roman's Guitars. OTOH there are lots of Joe Wilsons out there, so it may be a long shot.

Is there anything else written on the instrument besides his name and the date? Any location? Also, if you could check inside with a mirror there may be something written on the top. I have two instruments by an obscure late 1920s/early 1930s luthier who also glued his business card to the top.

Jim

warren

Mar-03-2006, 4:30pm

i just finished reading the "Claptons Guitar" book about Wayne henderson, seems he made his first Martin copy when he was 12 and it was pretty good, the reason - he wanted one and couldnt afford one so ...... There are a lot of skeptics here and im sure theres good reason, but ill bet everyone here has thought of building their own mando and either tried or dismissed it. I love the idea that some guy made this just because he could - and he obviously could.
if that Gruhn quote is for real then its surprises me that people forget that once upon a time people did things with their time and hands because they got pleasure from it.
So I guess its going to turn out to be from 1998 and all my romantic notions will be laughed at, but ill bet there are more of these things lying around.

mandolooter

Mar-03-2006, 9:13pm

I'd say whoever did it did a pretty good job considering there was no Mando cafe to Google...lol! Considering how many early copies have been documented to date, very few must exist. As for his aesthetics, well I've seen weirder stuff done by sane folks who neither drink or do drugs. Taste is a very personal thing in all areas of life. I thought the sound was pleasant, tho not your typical "Gibson F5" sound, but hey go into any store with 10 or more F5 mandos and give em all a try...the differences are there and it seems most have some tonal qualities I find appealing.

oh one last thing Dan, don't ya hate it when ya remember the things ya should have done and it's done gone...been there done that!

JeffS

Mar-04-2006, 3:57am

I don't see why someone would make one in the 50's, make it look like that, and then fake the date. In the 50's they'd have more pictures/reference to be more accurate. If you were going to fake the date to make it appear more collectable I would think you'd shoot for more accuracy in the copy as well.

kudzugypsy

Mar-04-2006, 8:39pm

i go with the theory that someone (a craftsman) wanted a F5 and simply made one themselves or got a good craftsman to do it - we are talking 1934 (if you believe the date) this is the Great Depression and people are out of work - ie no money - people forget that there were A LOT of unemployed craftsmen during those years (not like our generations recession with layed off techies) and many people back then would make their own. if you read a lot of the history of the early music pioneers, you will more than not, find they started on a homemade instrument - Doc Watsons dad was a craftsman and made his first guitar - this one is good for the period, and historically interesting, though nothing more. i think some ideas DID come from the then new super 400...obviously the guy was trying to make a fancier F5 - people liked bling- bling back then too!

zeek

Mar-05-2006, 8:23am

how much was this mandolin?

danb

Mar-05-2006, 1:15pm

I think it was on ebay recently, friend of a friend got it. I think it wasn't too bad, well under $5,000 if memory serves

Jim Rowland

Mar-07-2006, 1:15pm

Taylor Travis made a first guitar for his brother,Merle.
Jim

peghead

Mar-08-2006, 11:44am

Maybe in the 30's there wasn't much material to go by to build one, but what if he had one in his shop for repairs or something. Then he would have all the information he needed at his disposal. That would be my guess.

Darryl Wolfe

Apr-05-2006, 1:07pm

This may deserve a new thread, but here is a 1940 D'Angelico mandolin that appears in the new Skinner Auction flyer.

This is pretty direct Gibson influence and quite an early example of the subject at hand

Jim Garber

Apr-05-2006, 4:31pm

The Epiphone Windsor Special appeared as early as 1934 in their catalog.

Jim

Mr. Wilson

Jan-02-2009, 8:33pm

Well I would like to say Im the happy new owner of this mandolin. When I received it, it was a lot better then I expected. Its very well made not a piece of junk folk art. The neck is strait and after playing with the set up it plays great, nice neck and pretty good tone, great action. I own and have owned alot of old instruments ( mandolins, guitars ,banjos, violins ect.)and showed it to some other vintage music people and have no doubt its what it says it is. Its apparent its a very old instrument and the maker wasnt trying to fake a Gibson F5. Its a little longer and narrower the a F5. It wont fit in a standard F5 case as its a little to long and my other standard F5 wont fit in the Wilson case as its to narrow. Its also a little smaller then a Mandola. The case is almost as cool as the mando as it was custom made to fit it, its also very well made and also shows its age. I agree with Dan that it was probably copied from a photo because the diamentions are different then a standard F5. I researched 3 old violin makers named Joe Wilson that were alive when it was made, two were in Europe and one in Ohio USA. Over all Im happy with it and what I paid, I actually like playing more then my recent F5. Its also in great condition and so is the case. Ive taken it to some jams and let some friends play it and everyone seems to like it. I had bought it with an approval period so I could send it back if I didnt like it, but its a keeper , its really a cool mando and certainly piece of history.

Bernie Daniel

Jan-01-2012, 7:59am

Welcome to the Mandolin Cafe Mr. Wilson! :) Would that be Mr. Joe Wilson? Certainly a neat mandolin to have in your possession -- congratulations! Where if Ohio did the luthier Joe Wilson live? I'm in the Buckeye and might be inclined to do a little snooping around. If you get a chance or want to do it some tasty hi res. picks would be eagerly devoured on this forum I am sure.

Jim Garber

Jan-01-2012, 11:06am

Welcome to the Mandolin Cafe Mr. Wilson! :)

Bernie: No doubt you are aware that this is an old thread, tho the owner currently has the mandolin listed for sale in the classifieds (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=53215&query=retrieval).

Bernie Daniel

Jan-01-2012, 1:07pm

Bernie: No doubt you are aware that this is an old thread, tho the owner currently has the mandolin listed for sale in the classifieds (http://www.mandolincafe.com/cgi-bin/classifieds/classifieds.cgi?search_and_display_db_button=on&db_id=53215&query=retrieval).

Wow! I had brain fade this morning! I did a Google on Joe Wilson mandolin from the classifieds then forgot how I got to the thread -- saw January and thought hey a new owner already! NOT! Consider this my early April Fools joke!

Jim Garber

Jan-01-2012, 1:23pm

That is all right... I do it all the time.

Gary Hedrick

Jan-03-2012, 4:54pm

Sheeesh Bernie I was about to do the same thing....I remembered the thread and it being for sale some time ago....

I believe that Daryl's summation make great sense to me assuming that it is truly built in the 30's....

Gary Hedrick

Jan-30-2012, 7:06am

Interesting thing this mandolin.....it has exchanged hands a number of times over the past few years.

greg_tsam

Jan-30-2012, 1:34pm

And it's in the Classifieds right now.

Mr.Wilson

Feb-01-2012, 10:59pm

Im the owner of this Mando and am selling it because Im mainly a banjo player and I need the money at the moment for a house I bought that Im fixing up. How ever I have been thinking of holding onto it and pulling the add. Many well informed people have checked it out and believe it was made in 1934. I have owned a few hundred prewar guitars, banjos, mandos ,violins and dobros in the last 40 years and I also believe it made in 1934. The guy I got it from is a well known collector and was selling 2 Gilchrist mandos ( around 15 and 20K) a prewar F5 Fern and a prewar Martin D45 (For 125K) when I bought this so the fact its changed hands a few times doesnt mean theres something wrong with it . I have taken it to festivals and jams and everyone always had good things to say about it. Joe Wilson was apparently a violin maker and the neck has a violin type profile and it has a violin varnish finish. Its well made and a great playing and sounding instrument. If I decide to keep it I will post here. I also agree with Daryl :)

danb

Feb-02-2012, 5:59am

I had some time on this mando when my friend in London owned it. As I said earlier, no reason to doubt the date inside from materials, construction etc. I was surprised that it had decent tone (check that video clip I shot earlier in the thread)

Gary Hedrick

Feb-02-2012, 9:13am

I should clarify my comment......I have seen instruments that are so unique that a person will buy it just to have owned it for a while and then it gets passed on to the next enthusist and on. I assume that it is the real deal......likely as good as most of the mid 30's F5's from Gibson......which ( in my limited experience with them) are good but they aren't the same as the Loars....whole different vibe going on.
So don't take my comment as a being any more than that......there are enough of the true experts on the list that have looked at it to insure it isn't a flawed piece.........and frankly if I had the cash I'd be buying it from you.....It is just that intriguing to me.