Rosewood

[bsimmers]

I'm a picker, not a butcher. I hate to sound like an idiot, but what is rosewood? What tree does it come from? How is it that 25-30 yrs ago everyone was saying there wouldn't be any more available because of protecting the rain forest.....but now everyone seems to be able to build "Brazilian Rosewood" guitars if you have the money..........even newer, cheaper companies, like Blueridge? Is there one part of the tree that's better?
Thanks
Bob "not a builder, but I wanna know" Simmers

[grandmainger]

Bob,

Here's my take on this as a botanist/ecologist, not a luthier.

From Rosewood entry on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosewood):

Rosewood refers to a number of richly hued timbers, brownish with darker veining. All rosewoods are strong and heavy, taking an excellent polish, being suitable for flooring, furniture, and turnery (and lutherie!). In general, supplies are poor through overexploitation. Some species become canopy trees (to 30 m high), and big pieces can occasionally be found in the trade.
The pre-eminent rosewood appreciated in the western world is [i]Dalbergia nigra[/a], Brazilian rosewood (now CITES-listed). It is also known as Rio rosewood or Bahia rosewood. This wood has a strong sweet smell, which persists over the years, explaining the name "rosewood".

There is some extra info on there.

The reason why it is possible to buy some today is ceause Brazilian Rosewood is the same as Ivory... Anything that was harvested prior to the ban can be sold if it carries a CITES certificate. No new stock can be obtained legally. NONE. Since all the Brazilian Rosewood that's around at the moment is pre-ban (1992), the stock is diminishing, and prices are increasing.

There are currently a variety of alternative rosewood sources, mainly Indian.

HTH

Germain

[Paul Hostetter]

Rosewood is a vague common name for a lot of woods that resemble each other but are not necessarily related. Most folks believe that the real rosewoods are confined to the genus Dalbergia. Among the many commercially known species of this genus are:

* Dalbergia brownei (Coin Vine)
* Dalbergia cearensis (Kingwood)
* Dalbergia cochinchinensis (Siamese Rosewood)
* Dalbergia ecastaphyllum (Coinvine)
* Dalbergia decipularis (Tulipwood)
* Dalbergia frutescens
* Dalbergia melanoxylon (African Blackwood)
* Dalbergia monetaria (Moneybush)
* Dalbergia nigra (Brazilian Rosewood, Jacarandá)
* Dalbergia retusa (Cocobolo)
* Dalbergia sissoo (Sheesham, Sissoo)
* Dalbergia stevensonii (Honduras Rosewood)
* Dalbergia latifolia known as (East) Indian rosewood

Lots of other tropical hardwoods look and work a lot like Dalbergias and also come to be called rosewood. Tipuana tipu, padauk (Pterocarpus soyauxii), Goncalo Alves (Astronium fraxinfolium), Jatoba (Hymenaea courbaril), and Katalox (Swartzia cubensis) are a few examples.

[Frank Ford]

There are thousands of Dalbergia nigra stumps on private land in Brazil. These are being hand dug from the ground, hauled off and milled into some of the finest Brazilian rosewood guitar sets I've ever seen. Collings, Santa Cruz, Blueridge, and countless other producers are making guitars from this wood, which continues to come out of Brazil without injuring the remaining population of living trees. We had to wait for the wood to be worth enough to harvest it in this labor-intensive manner. So while the supply increased in this manner, because of the cost and difficulty getting it here, the price didn't go down.

[AspiringLuthier]

There is also some question as to how much of the wood being sold as stumpwood is really from stumps versus illegal logging. Martin claims that they don't use stumpwood due to the difficulty in verifying authenticity and have nearly exhausted their current supply of Brazilian. Very few Brazilian Martins are being made and the price of existing ones has gone up dramatically in the last 6 monts or so.

[Paul Hostetter]

I know makers in Sao Paulo who are extremely savvy about the condition of the supply and the forest, and according to them, there's absolutely nothing left to log. As Roberto Gomes describes it, when Europeans first arrived, D. nigra was scattered over the Atlantic rainforest in small clusters of 2-3 trees on a grid of every mile or so. Very sparse distribution in the first place. That forest (including everything else in it) has been systematically harvested over the last 500 years and there is nothing left in Brazil but a few arboretum and park specimens. The rest of it is in warehouses.

The Atlantic rainforest, by the way, is not a jungle. It more closely resembles the flora of coastal California, due to dry/wet season and so on. Broadleaf trees, grasslands, etc. People moved in, the trees are all gone.

As with Madagascar, the few remaining freshly cut trees are being smuggled out of parklands and so on. The stumpwood is pretty easy to ID, just by looking at it.

[Bob DeVellis]

A bit off topic, but for those interested in the recent scholarship on human impact on the rainforests both before and after the earliest European presence, a book called "1491: New Revelations of the Americas Before Columbus", published in 2005 by Knopf and authored by Charles C. Mann, is worth a read.

[AspiringLuthier]

Perhaps I should rephrase. Martin claims that stumpwood isn't certified and therefore you can't prove it was obtained legally. I'm not sure how other manufacturers deal with that issue. It's interesting that there are usually several sets of Brazilian on eBay coming directly from Brazil. No mention of CITES and questions about certification go unanswered.

[Paul Hostetter]

I hear ya. I think the Bush Administration has other priorities.

[8ch(pl)]

My Mid Missouri M-4 has a back and sides of Morada, (purple in Spanish) Bolivian Rosewood. The Mid Missouri website also lists Pau Ferro as the M-4 wood.

Are they the same wood? My instrument is 8 years old, perhaps the wood has changes due to avilability issues.

[Paul Hostetter]

Morado (Machaerium villosum, also M. scleroxylon & M. acutifolium) go by common names such as : Pau Ferro, Bolivian Rosewood, Iron Wood, Jacaranda Pardo, Caviuna, and Santos Rosewood. All are trade names for the same wood. Pau Ferro in Portuguese means iron wood.

[PaulD]

I don't know how Martin runs their production, but I would think it would be hard to justify relying on a material that is of questionable availability for a product line. I could see one-off or custom builders working that way... look at Bill Bussman and his telegraph pole wood; talk about limited availability! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

I would love to have some Brazilian RW big enough for a guitar, but not at current prices and questionable origins. I've got a small stash from about 1982, but it's not even wide enough for a 3 pc. mando back. I love the smell of the stuff and can't wait to cut it, but I'm waiting for the right project.


Pau Ferro in Portuguese means iron wood.
That makes sense... I hadn't ever thought about it. Thanks for the trivia... I find it interesting.

Paul Doubek

[glauber]

Going back to the original question, i believe these woods are called rosewood because they smell "like roses" when machined.

Mandolin content: Dalbergia Nigra is called Jacarandá in Brazil. I believe that's the name of a Michael Lampert CD.

[Rob Grant]

I don't know what "Jacarandá" means in spanish, but Jacaranda (eg: mimosifolia, sp.) is a genus of the family Bignoniaceae and has no relation to the genus Dalbergia (family Fabaceae).

Here in Oz and New Guinea, there are several members of the Dalbergia genus. "Rosewood" is even the common name given to a local species of eucalyptus!

[Paul Hostetter]

In French jacarande also signifies Dalbergia. I guess this just illustrates how pointless and misleading common names can be. Plane trees are sycamores, sycamores are maples, and so on. The Australian Jacaranda mimosifolia and its cousins are all beans as are the Dalbergias. Same opposing leaves, nice flowers and beanpods, hence the obviousness of the common name. They're also a very common yard tree in the States.

[Rob Grant]

Common names are really confusing. I'm amazed at the number of "maples" and "ash" that we have here in Australia. Our local "ash" is actually a Flindersia (not Acer) and is often referred to as a "maple!"

Our "Australian Jacaranda" is actually a native of Brazil and was probably brought into the country in the 1800s.

[Dennis Russell]

"JACARANDA" is grown here in hot southwest in persons yards, has Purple and or Blue leaves is very attractive in gardens and yards, is there any relations to what is being talked about? Dennis in Yuma Arizona

[PaulD]

... what is rosewood? What tree does it come from? ... Is there one part of the tree that's better? ...
So this gets back to Bob's original post... this discussion demonstrates why what seemed like a simple question really is a very good one. There has been much more good information written here than what one could find on Wikipedia and most Google searches. It amazes me how much specific information you people can pull off the tops of your heads! I knew the basic answers to Bob's question, but it would have taken me hours of research to dig up the details and interesting trivia.

The last question from the original post hasn't been addressed. Typically folks don't want to include sapwood from any species. As with most woods, the sapwood in rosewoods that I've seen is very white, yellowish, or light colored. Since it was the "living" part of the tree it tends to be softer, less stable, and prone to infestation (generally speaking... I don't have experience with Rosewood sapwood). The mineral deposits in the heartwood give different woods their color, aroma, and often protect against predators. I'm sure others can clarify this as well... I know the basics! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Paul Doubek

[glauber]

I'm pretty sure Jacarandá (Brazil) is Dalbergia Nigra, but i could be wrong. It's a very heavy, dark wood that was much used in furniture (!) and is rare now. Today you would see it used as a veneer, mostly. I don't think it's the same plant grown in the US Southwest (i found some pictures of that on the Internet, it appears to be a kind of begonia, with strikingly purple flowers); the one i was talking about would be a large, slow growing tree. I don't think it's a rainforest tree either, BTW, but i could be wrong again. I think it's a tree of the Brazilian Atlantic forest, which is a forest that's almost entirely gone, unfortunately. Rainforest vegetation tends to be quick growing stuff; the slow growers can't compete. The dense woods that are favoured for instrument building tend to grow in environments where there isn't much water, so the trees take a long time to grow. But then, maybe that's just the kind of woods used for wind instrument making? I really should shut up now. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

[Martin Jonas]

Not much to add here, except that the German name for "rosewood" (Dalbergia) is "Palisander", a word unrelated to any of the other names quoted so far in this thread. I see from the above that Paul says that the French use "jacarande" to denote Dalbergia rosewood, which confuses me, as I was under the impression that the French word for rosewood was "palisandre". I see from various web sites that the word "palisander" is also used in English to denote Dalbergia baronii from Madagascar, but in German, it stands for all Dalbergia rosewood species.

Martin

[grandmainger]

I see from the above that Paul says that the French use "jacarande" to denote Dalbergia rosewood, which confuses me, as I was under the impression that the French word for rosewood was "palisandre".
Indeed, though it actually is Palissandre. It is also called Bois de Rose (Wood of Rose...)

Here is the "official" translations of Rosewood in the European Union. There are 2 different "Subjects" for the answer:

[grandmainger]

And the second "Subject"

[tree]

Linnaeus rules (no pun intended).

[grandmainger]

Linnaeus rules (no pun intended).
http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif
Try telling that to my students! I keep trying to impress it on them, latin names are the way to go... I might try to use this example for my students...

[Paul Hostetter]

Grandmainger caught me: I confused jacarande with palissandre. The big trees that are being cut and smuggled out of parks in Madagascar are known there, in French anyway, as palissandre. Dahlbergias in general are known as palissandre.

Bois de rose is Dalbergia maritima. The Madagascar rosewood that everyone likes because it looks like Brazilian is Dalbergia baroni.

I've said it before and I'll repeat it: I have been to Madagascar, I have seen the place and have witnessed the financial desperation that allows the last remaining trees on the island to be cut illegally and smuggled out. The Madagascar rosewood we're using so gaily over here is the environmental equivalent of conflict diamonds.

[grandmainger]

Grandmainger caught me: I confused jacarande with palissandre.
Actually, from what the EU dictionnary says, we French use the 2 terms Jacaranda and Palissandre...
Paul, I could use good real-life examples like your trip to Madagascar in my ethnobotany classes. Would you mind telling me more? (PM if necessary...)

Cheers

Germain

[Paul Hostetter]

I went there about five years ago and produced four albums of music for Shanachie. Moon and the Banana Tree, World Out of Time III and Tarika Sammy's Beneath Southern Skies are still in print. I'm still dealing with folks there all the time, but haven't been back since. My neighbor and very close friend Frans Lanting is a senior photographer for National Geographic and works for a number of other major magazines. He's a biologist by training and has logged more than two years on assignment in Mad. His photos grace the covers of all our CDs, and in fact the World Out of Time title mirrors his marvelous book of the same name. His experiences augment mine because he's tramped every square inch of that island.

Madagascar was pretty much logged bald by the French, and then typically discarded at the end of the colonial era (1960s). Since then it went through a long period under a French-installed despot who mopped up as much of the remaining resources as he could. He was finally deposed and lives in France. Mad is the 3rd world of the Third World. What little forest that remains is theoretically protected as parkland, but there is no government protection because there's no money to pay for it. Flying logs out is like flying drugs or arms. A bit of bakshish here and there, and you're on your way. It's extremely sad.

[Darryl Wolfe]

I read somewhere that the French logged Brazilian Rosewood by the boatloads, ground it up and cooked a "spirit" out of it

The main ingredient in Chanel No 5.

This was not presented as a joke. #So perfume accounted for Martin having to change in 1969http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif

[Paul Hostetter]

This sounds a wee bit implausible. I was working at a Martin dealership back in the Sixties when it was phased out. The deal was that the Brazilian government, sensing (rightly) that the supply was near the end of the line and being exploited to death by foreign concerns (which for all I know could have included Chanel), insisted that any D. nigra be cut and processed in Brazil. No more logs, only sawn and processed timber. The price of the wood went way up and people like Martin lost control of how the wood was sawn, so they decided to punt and go to Indian.

I don't want to go into how well Brazil has managed its resources before or since - it's obviously a travesty - but that was the explanation at the time and it made complete sense. And meanwhile most of the Brazilian rosewood on earth is sitting in warehouses in Spain.

I'm sure the sawdust from the milling operations alone could have supplied the perfume industry, if in fact there's any substance to that use. I'd never heard it before. What is Chanel doing now? #5 is still on the market. Old stock?

[Darryl Wolfe]

I'll try to find that. I was mostly joking on the Marin part, but the Chanel thing was presented as the main procurer of the Brazilian

[glauber]

By 1969, the 1964 military junta that was put in place by the US was firmly in control in Brazil, having revoked most civil liberties. But this is not the board to discuss such things. Suffice to say that our fearless leaders had a contradictory attitude towards natural resources - they saw them both as something they needed to control, and as the key to making Brazil an economic super-power. They proceeded to mismanage the natural resources as they mismanaged everything else.

[Darryl Wolfe]

Perfume trade fells the Brazilian rosewood
By Larry Rohter The New York Times

TUESDAY, AUGUST 30, 2005


SILVES, Brazil Until Chanel No. 5 perfume went on the market in 1921, pau rosa, or Brazilian rosewood, was just another tree that grew in abundance in the Amazon.

But the enduring popularity of that fragrance, which includes rosewood oil as a key ingredient, began a process that has led both to a black market in the oil and the tree itself being designated as an endangered species.

Worldwide, the demand for perfumes, soaps, balms and scented candles has skyrocketed in recent years, boosted by rising incomes among women and new-age trends such as aromatherapy. Because of rosewood's cachet, demand for the oil far outstrips the legal supply, and some fragrance manufacturers will pay just about anything to get their hands on some.

full article link (http://www.iht.com/articles/2005/08/29/news/journal.php)

[glauber]

I think this is a different wood. I'm not aware of any tree in Brazil called "pau rosa", but it's possible it exists. Grandmainer's dictionary had the Spanish equivalent, "palo rosa", and also "pau rosa" in the Canary Islands.

[glauber]

Pau rosa seems to be Aniba rosaeodora (http://www.traffic.org/news/brazilmp.html) (article in English).

Here's an abstract (http://www.inpa.gov.br/sites/codi/silv.html), in English (Portuguese title), that connects Pau Rosa and Aniba rosaeodora.

[Paul Hostetter]

Here (http://www.unep-wcmc.org/trees/trade/ani_ros.htm)'s another good article. It's a laurel, not a bean. And it's in trouble, but it has nothing to do with lutherie.

"Populations throughout the species range have seriously declined because of rosewood oil extraction. Substantial wild stands are believed to exist still in areas which are unlikely to be exploited, but where exploitation has occurred the population is devoid of mature trees and significant signs of regeneration are absent. The whole tree and its roots are destroyed in the extraction process, trees of all sizes being harvested indiscriminately. The sole producer at present is Brazil, although the species was wiped out through exploitation over large areas in French Guiana between 1910 and 1930. Harvesting incurs high costs and is taking place in more and more remote locations concentrated around Amazon tributaries, principally in Amazonas and Pará states. Mobile distillation factories have moved deep into the forest. Levels of exploitation have significantly declined with increased use of synthetic oils. The species is included in lists of threatened plants in Colobia, Brazil and Suriname."

"At the height of international interest in rosewood oil in the 1960s, Brazil alone exported 500 tonnes pa. The world market is now stable at about 100 tonnes. Fluctuations in supplies are caused by changes in rainfall levels, which affect access to harvesting sites. Although Peru, Colombia and the Guianas have all produced rosewood oil for the international market, Brazil is now the only producer. The chief importer is U.S.A. followed by Switzerland, France and other EC countries."

[Rob Grant]

glauber wrote: "Rainforest vegetation tends to be quick growing stuff; the slow growers can't compete. The dense woods that are favoured for instrument building tend to grow in environments where there isn't much water, so the trees take a long time to grow."

This statement is only true for the "pioneer" species and not the mature trees that are cut by the timber getters. In a sense, your west coast redwood is a "rainforest (temparate) tree." Plenty of dense, instrument grade hardwoods are found in rainforests. Temparate rainforest can also be the source of some excellent softwoods that are used for instrument tops. Ultimately the pioneer species of a rainforest are replaced by the slower growing, more desirable timber species.

[Paul Hostetter]

Again, Brazil's Atlantic rainforest is much like California's. Neither is your stereotypical Amazon jungle, as most people assume about all of Brazil. The Atlantic forest isn't in the Amazon basin, it faces the ocean. The term rainforest is rather confusing. No monkeys, no fern fronds two meters across, no bananas, there or here.

Wish you could see my rainforest today. It's been pouring hard intermittently, and out my window past the monitor are a lot of big redwoods. We're cruising for another 100+" rainy season, well into the rainforest category (we average 80" here each winter), but we're still in a confused desert because of the length and severity of the dry season. Wish we had a nice Dalbergia to add to the redwoods. Instead we have oaks, madrones, manzanita, and some California sycamores.

http://www.lutherie.net/H670.6.jpg

[glauber]

Only yesterday, i found a handful of pictures that my Mom took in 2000 when she took a trip down the Amazon river in the boat owned by the Presbyterian Church of Brazil. There aren't many trees in the pictures, just a lot of water. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Here (http://flickr.com/photos/theglauber/sets/72057594073376286/)

[Paul Hostetter]

Well c'mon, it is a matter of perspective. How many trees might be over on the shore in this photo?:

http://www.lutherie.net/amazon.jpg

And how did they get that river to flow uphill like that?

[Rob Grant]

Paul wrote:
"Wish you could see my rainforest today. It's been pouring hard intermittently, and out my window past the monitor are a lot of big redwoods. We're cruising for another 100+" rainy season, well into the rainforest category."

Just talked to the sister-in-law in Boulder Creek and she said the same thing... So you're the ones who are getting our wet season!!!!<G>

Rob, tongue hanging out for a good low (cyclone will do), FarOutNorthQueensland,Oz.

[Antlurz]

That's a very beautiful understated guitar, Paul! What is that rib wood? Anaconda snakeskin?

Ron

[grandmainger]

Can I just say that this is turning out to be one of the most interesting threads I've ever read on here. Thanks to all the contributions, it makes fascinating read.
Paul, I'll be in Santa-Cruz for the Symposium in June/July, I'd love to pop by and shake your hand if you're around then.

From your builders' experience, is there any other tree species on the decline at the moment due mainly to the instrument/mandolin industry? Rosewood is, but we don't use it that much for mandolins.

Germain

[Mastersound]

There's also New Guinea Rosewood "Narra" Pterocarpus indicus. I'm using it for some of the necks for my mandos and ukes. It's a lot softer than the usual Queensland maple, Tasmanian blackwood or "Australian oak" I've been using, but it looks a million dollars and makes a welcome change from the smell of Tasmanian blackwood. I originally bought a small piece to try for fretboards but it's way too soft for that application.

Ellis Guitars website says...

BOTANY: Pterocarpus indicus
SOURCE: Solomon Islands, Philippines, Malaysia, NewGuinea, Indonesia
COLOURS: Like Koa, golden tan to cinnamon brown, to deep brown red
CHARACTER: Mostly straight, can be interlocked or wavy grain, can be mottled. Moderately fine texture
COMPARES: Koa, only harder. Honduran Rosewood

[Paul Hostetter]

The guitar above is made entirely out of my local "rainforest" woods: redwood top, California sycamore (Platanus racemosa) sides, back and neck, manzanita bridge, fingerboard and overlay. All these woods were harvested within about two miles of my house. It's an SCGC model H-13, my autograph model. The bridge and overlay are root burl, the board is simple trunk wood. Manzanita is a pretty scraggly desert shrub that also grows in our rainforest. In my spare time (ha ha) I hope to make a matching mandolin.

[Paul Hostetter]

Germain - I don't think even Brazilian rosewood was pushed to the state it's in by the musical instrument industry, not at all. Look at all those old pianos, end tables, dining room sets, etc.

Yeah, I'll be around during Symposium, I live just a few miles away from UCSC, and I tend to at least come by in the evenings to hang out. It's a great event and has a terrific lineup this year, as ever. Hamilton de Holanda would be worth the price of admission all by himself. He just played here last week with Mike Marshall, a whole evening of just two nutcases armed with mandolins, it was simply great. Anyway, when you're in the zone, let's plan something.

[glauber]

In the flute world, depending on who you listen to, we may be driving African Blackwood (Mpingo - Grenadilla - Dalbergia melanoxylon) to extinction. But the worst offender in terms of volume of blackwood used are the clarinet manufacturers. European boxwood is another wood that's prized by flutemakers and is basically extinct, but that wasn't because of musical instruments either. Good flute woods are very dense (to deal with the moisture generated in playing) and grow very slowly.

[Paul Hostetter]

Dalbergia melanoxylon was long a favored "ebony" for piano keys, and is still heavily harvested for vernacular sculpture in Africa. Think of how many black piano keys have been made, although many also came from Diospyrus crassiflora, known as Gaboon (Gabon) ebony, which is a true ebony. D. melanoxylon is in sad shape but there are some efforts to replenish the plantings through nurseries and the like. Cross your fingers.

[bsimmers]

I thought I had a pretty stupid question to start this; not really knowing what rosewood was. This will take some time to absorb. Thanks for all the info.

[Paul Hostetter]

It was a very good question. The only questions that ever really irritate me are ones that get asked about every ten days where an archive search would have done the trick best.

http://www.arvores.brasil.nom.br/florin/fotos/10jacb.jpg

Jacarandá da bahia (Dalbergia nigra)

[mandopaul]

Here is a Rosewood back;
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/margibman/PICT0466.jpg

[Paul Hostetter]

Thass what it is, alright! Lovely. What's on the flipside?

[mandopaul]

the flipside:
Paul, can you tell from picture of back what kind of Rosewood it is, because I am not sure.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v209/margibman/d1e20052.jpg

[Paul Hostetter]

Oh jeez. I'd venture probably Honduran (Dalbergia stevensonii) which is sometimes referred to as Rio rosewood, or maybe tulipwood (Dalbergia frutescens). Probably Honduran, which is a lot easier to work with. It's also the main wood used for marimba keys, which means it's nice and lively.

[Chris Baird]

I've used Honduran quite a bit and it doesn't look like Honduran to me. Here is Honduran:

[Paul Hostetter]

If you do a Google image search, which is the best I can do since I don't keepan archive of the stuff I've actually used, you'll see a lot of it. Some is dark, some is not. This is typical:

http://www.tkinstruments.com/55588f30.jpg

In this one, the top batch 1-7 is Honduras and the center pieces 8-12 are tulipwood:

http://www.turn-of-the-century.com/images/cpen12.jpg

[Paul Hostetter]

Here's a Kinnaird guitar I think is very typical:

http://www.kinnairdguitars.com/images/00012_32_excellent_back_view.jpg

Here's a table and chair:

http://www.iwoodfish.com/Writing%20desk%20%26%20Chair.JPG

It's not all dark.

[Paul Hostetter]

Old Deagans in Honduran rosewood:

http://www.dgwauctioneers.com/photo/c521-030.jpg

http://www.salazarfinetuning.com/portfolio/deagan4724-beforeE.JPG