south carolina maple any good?

[randyj]

I got a stump from my neighbor's large maple tree she was having removed thinking it could be mandolin wood. Arborist said it was a water maple and he said it is curly. Does mandolin maple have to come from colder climates? Could this be good for an instrument or should I split it for firewood?

[arbarnhart]

Don't burn it! I don't know whether it would make good backs or necks (I suspect the grain might be a little wild and unstable), but a curly maple stump would be prized by wood turners.

[Brady Smith]

Not...an answer for the above and not to steal his question, but may help him out as well....I have 95 acres of trees and would be interested if anyone could point me in the right direction of how to cut and prepare wood for mandolin making.

[arbarnhart]

Got any fresh oysters? http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/biggrin.gif

(you have to read the "Wood" thread to get the joke )

What kinds of trees and how old and large?

[Brady Smith]

I've got about everything...no giants as there has been some select cutting over the years but...mainly sugar maple, black locust, hickory, cherry, buckeye, beech, elm, ash etc...not much walnut though.

[tree]

Never heard of water maple, and I'm a certified arborist and registered forester in South Carolina. #Just goes to show you why Linnaeus invented taxonomy, so people from different places could discuss something and know they were speaking about the same thing. #Common names cause a lot of identity crises.

Could be red maple (Acer rubrum), which is commonly found in swampy areas and river bottoms in SC. Whatever it is, don't worry about the name - split it and see what it looks like. #Remove the bark, too, so the bugs won't be so tempted to dine on it. #If it's curly, you'll see the figure.

[Spruce]

"I got a stump from my neighbor's large maple tree she was having removed thinking it could be mandolin wood. #Arborist said it was a water maple and he said it is curly. #Does mandolin maple have to come from colder climates? #Could this be good for an instrument or should I split it for firewood?"

I haven't heard of "water maple" either, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist...

How long ago was the tree cut down? #
Spalting would be my main concern if it's been over 4 months or so...

Heck, cut it up and if it's good it's good....
Luck!

"I have 95 acres of trees and would be interested if anyone could point me in the right direction of how to cut and prepare wood for mandolin making."

I'd go over to the MIMF (http://mimf2.qwk.net/cgi-bin/WebX?14@33.CRCraLvSrvg.0@/), and do a search...
There's a lot of archived material there (I think I wrote some of it) that will get you on the right path....

The first step is to go out to your forest and locate the curly trees, if they exist...
Take a hatchet and gently score the bark to expose 2-3" of the cambium. #If it looks as smooth as a baby's butt, move on to the next tree...

But if it looks like the back of a '23 slab-cut Loar, do the same thing to the other side of the tree. #If you see the same thing, you've got something...

[PaulD]

Not...an answer for the above and not to steal his question, but may help him out as well....I have 95 acres of trees and would be interested if anyone could point me in the right direction of how to cut and prepare wood for mandolin making.
Not an answer to your question directly, but unless you've got a good reason to take them out, let them grow! http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif Sorry... I'm partial to green.

Still indirect, but more to your question: the often recommended Understanding Wood by R. Bruce Hoadley/Taunton Press has a section on cutting and drying wood. Also lots of information on why wood behaves the way it does. There have also been other discussions of this type on this forum and MIMF.com... you may find some good info if you can search the archives.

If the Black Locust is any good, it's a pretty cool wood. Seems to me I've heard of folks using it for either Guitar or Mando backs/sides.

Paul Doubek

[sunburst]

In Kentucky, they call Silver Maple (Acer saccharinum) water maple. That might be what it is.

Oh, and maybe Boxelder (Acer negundo).
Both are usually pretty soft, but if it's curly, it's curly.

[yoods]

Common names versus Latin names...I agree with Clark B, sounds like Acer rubrum which is generally known as red maple. I think I have heard it referred to as water maple in some parts of the country. Other common names for red maple are soft maple, white maple, swamp maple, scarlet maple...but then silver maple (Acer saccharinum) is also called soft, white, water, creek, swamp and river maple!

Oh Boy! Your local extension or county forester could probably help you identify it if still has the bark attached; better yet if you had a branch with some leaf buds on it, but may be too late for that. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/laugh.gif

[Links]

When doing some landscape plans for a golf course in Bermuda, my favorite reference book "Bermuda Jubilee Gardens" referred to one of the most beautiful trees you could imagine. #It was the "Silk Tree" (Albizzia Julibrissen). #I showed it being planted all over the golf course. #Several months later, a lnadscape architect friend of mine referred to the "Mimosa" (generally hated) tree here in the south by the same botanical name. #I was horrified.

Turns out, it is the same tree, but is a different habitat, such as Bermuda, it is a much more desirable tree. #I still modified my plans to eliminate most of them. #Botanical names are the only true means of identification.

[mando andy]

Red maple is a "hard maple" and silver maple grows in much wetter habitats, such as areas, that get flooded seasonnaly flooded. It is a much softer wood, like box elder.

It is very common as an ornamental because it grows very fast and is often planted on lawns and such.

Not anything like sugar or red maple as far as its wood qualities go.

Andy

[Links]

The Silver Maple also has very brittle limbs and it's roots grow on top of the ground. IMHO, a pretty lousy tree for landscaping. I do't know about its utility for instrument wood.

[sunburst]

I've sawed Silver Maple (Acer saccharinum) with my sawmill, and used it in banjo necks. In my limited experience with it, it tends to be a little softer than Red Maple (Acer rubrum). It also tends to be "stringy" when worked.
I think of Red Maple as a soft maple. To me, the "hard maples" are Sugar Maple (Acer saccharum) and Black Maple (Acer nigrum).
Though Red Maple usually gets classed as a hard maple, it's called soft maple everywhere I've lived, and it is considerably softer, generally, than Sugar Maple.

[Links]

As usual, Hamlett is right on the money! #The fact that the Silver Maple grows so fast may have something to do with it being a little harder to work.

[mando andy]

John--your rignt on that, thanks--I had forgotton about the black maple. I didn't realize that red was considered soft maple. I tend to lump sugar and red because they can grow in somewhat similar habitats (red can do ok on drier sites) and grow big and long in age. I always thought that "soft" always referred to silver and box elder...but I have never cut the stuff in a sawmill!!! (I think I have whittled a piece of it a long time ago).

Thanks for clearing that up.

Andy

[sunburst]

I grew up in one of the Virginia counties that boarders West Va. Sugar Maple and Red Maple each grow in abundance, often in mixed stands. Silver Maple and Boxelder can also be found. (I used top make maple syrup every spring).
Now I live on the eastern slope of the Blue Ridge, and Sugar Maple is not to be found, but Red Maple and Silver Maple are common.
Nobody around here calls any of it "water maple". I heard that term first in Kentucky, and when I asked what it was, I was first shown a Silver Maple, then a Boxelder. Both are common in the river bottoms. Don't you just love regional common names?

[tree]

I do - kinda like regional accents or dialects, they give you a taste of regional identity.

To give an extreme example, I think there are some 200+ species of tree worldwide with the common name "ironwood". I think the source of that little factoid was dendro class at NCSU some 20 years ago.

And in the UK, I think "lime" trees are actually various species of Tilia, which on this side of the pond translates to basswood, or linden.

Maybe the arborist that described the tree in the original post was from Kentucky.

[Spruce]

"Red maple is a "hard maple" and silver maple grows in much wetter habitats, such as areas, that get flooded seasonnaly flooded. #Not anything like sugar or red maple as far as its wood qualities go. #"

As John said, Red is classified as a soft maple...

And Silver is highly sought-after (when highly figured) in the violin-viola world mainly due to it's weight, which can be very light...

Many-a-spectacular viola has been made with Silver, and you see it all the time in Gibson archtop guitars and mandolins from the '30-40s...

[Lane Pryce]

In regards to Silver Maple. Will the orientation the bark give any clue as to whether the wood underneath will be figured? Lp

[Spruce]

If you remove a small patch of bark to check out the cambium on Silver Maple, look for small dime-sized "bubbles" in the cambium....
That's the good stuff, and is the wood you see in a lot of old L5s...

[mando andy]

I checked with my forestry coworkers today and yes--red maple is considered a "soft maple" in the trade. Sorry, didn't mean to give out misinformation but I had always assumed that red and sugar were similar in terms of wood type since they can occur together sometimes in mixed stands.

Oh well--as they say--never assume. Thanks for the correction.



Andy

[sunburst]

I guess it will be a few years, but maybe I'll find out how Silver Maple works in a mandolin.

I got a call from a friend in Kentucky. His neighbor had cleared some trees out of a field, and gave him the wood for firewood. One of the maple trees turned out to be curley, so I worked it up to dry.

[sunburst]

If all goes well with the drying, this stuff should look pretty good. It's not crazy curly, but it's got a fine, tight curl, that's not real strong, so it should be relatively easy to bend and carve.

[sunburst]

Here it is stacked to dry, with the ends sealed with orange wax. Bruce tells me that the bark needs to come off to help avoid fungus.

[tree]

Debarking also helps deter woodboring insects, as it helps the billets dry more quickly and uniformly. #

John, how will you mill those pieces when the time comes? #Will you split them any further? #Will you quartersaw or slabsaw? #If you quartersaw, do you try to minimize waste or do you try to get the absolute best quartering slice with as little runout as possible? #I'm assuming you'll mill them on that big old bandsaw that I admire so. #http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/wow.gif #

BTW, do you have a pet name for that monster?

[sunburst]

I'll first try to decide what the best use is for each billet. Some of the ones from higher in the tree will be best for necks, because necks are short enough to fit between the knots and there isn't enough width for backs. Those I'll just cut into pieces I can square up into neck blanks.

Most are long enough for sides, so the ones that won't yield wide enough wood for backs I'll likely saw thin strips from the flat faces 'til the grain starts to get off from 90 degrees, then adjust and saw some more.

Some of them are wide enough for flat top guitar backs, so I'll probably saw off a few thin sets from the flat surfaces, then saw radially for mandolin, violin, and mandola backs.

Ideally, it will be like this, and yes, I'll be using the monster band saw that, thus far, has no name.

[Lane Pryce]

BTW, do you have a pet name for that monster?
The Mangler. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/rock.gif Lp

[Lane Pryce]

Is there an optimal time of year for cutting a Silver Maple? I checked two Silver maples on my property earmarked for cutting and per Bruce Harveys specs both are covered with the nickle sized bubbles on the cambien. Figured grain ia visable too. The trees are approximately 50-60 inches in circumfrence. Lp

[tree]

Well, the best time to prune is when the saw is sharp . . . I would speculate that applies to harvesting, too. #I know that with maples and some other species (birch, beech and dogwood for example), in late winter/early spring there will be a lot of sap in the wood. #Whether this is a real problem I don't know for sure, but I suspect it isn't. #I'd just wait a couple of days before sealing the end grain, if the wood is real wet. (I've never bothered to seal end grain, but then I'm not dealing with instrument-quality wood for my piddling projects. I just cut an inch or so off the end if there is checking.)

As for John's monster bandsaw, I kinda like "The Chief", after the star of the basketball game in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest. http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif

Nice diagram, John. #That is exactly what I was wondering about.

[sunburst]

Winter is the best for time harvesting, to avoid staining and degradation from fungus (probably bugs too), simply because of the colder weather.
The bark will certainly come off easier if it's cut in the spring when the sap is rising and new cambium cells are growing. I've heard or read that the extra sugar in the sap wood in the spring can feed and encourage fungus, but I don't know if that's true. I suspect there's plenty of sugar to please the fungus any time of year.

Prompt action to prepare the wood for drying is more important than time of year. Be ready with everything when you cut the trees so the whole process is done in a couple of days.

This tree sort of fell in my lap, so to speak. I got the phone call one evening, and the logs were already on the ground. The guy who had them is a luthier, so he knew what he had, but he didn't have the time and space to deal with the wood. The tree was given to him for firewood. I'm trading him some red spruce guitar tops for it.

I usually use commercial green wood sealer for the end grain, but I was away from home, so I "borrowed" someone else's Woodmizer, and used candles dissolved in paint thinner for the end sealer. Bruce has posted that suggestion here before.
So far, it's cost me $10 worth of gas and a days work.