Is this a fake Gibson label?

[WoodyMcKenzie]

I am repairing an old Gibson A mandolin and removed the back. A friend came by and commented that the label is the wrong label for that vintage mandolin. The serial number should be for a mandolin that was made around 1912 or so, but my friend believes that this label looks more like a label from a few decades later, maybe the 30's. Anyone out there know?

Thanks!

Woody

[Paul Hostetter]

I doubled-checked this. If I read the rather sketchy image correctly, the number is 15442, thus it seems to be from 1953 and the orange label is appropriate and correct. The odd thing is it only says "A" for the model. It could have been an A-40, A-50, or an A-5. Is the back laminated? Is it an electric?

[Frank Ford]

Lots of mandolins went back to Gibson for serious rehabilitation and received current labels with their original serial numbers. . .

[danb]

agree with frank. something was probably done at gibson in th 50s..

[Big Joe]

Yep. When an instrument was sent back in those days it usually got the then current label with the old serial number on it. That was common practice from the 20's on.

[Paul Hostetter]

But the serial number on that label indicates it's from 1953, which would have had an orange label to begin with. I know some people think instruments from the 80s are "vintage" but why would anyone assume it had been sent back to K'zoo, refurbished and relabeled? Maybe a picture of the rest of the mandolin would help.

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Thanks for all your expert insights! #I must have made a mistake looking up the serial number, since I thought it was from around 1912. It is an oval holed mandolin and has a very dark (birch?) back which is solid, since I am repairing cracks in the back that are evident on the outside and inside. It has Kluson tuners, which I assume are not original.Taking the back off was pretty easy, since it was coming loose anyway. What I didn't realize was that the back was pinned in place with a metal pin to the neck block. I wasn't sure what was holding it and sawed through what looks like a nail with my saw. The neck is a good deal trimmer than the clubby neck found on old Gibsons. I think it is mahogany and has a V-shaped insert that is visible at the base of the headstock where the trussrod cover would be if there was a trussrod. I hadn't given it much thought until my friend gave it a look, but the label just doesn't look as old as the mandolin.

Thanks again!

Woody

[Paul Hostetter]

I have a hunch Gibson had nothing to do with this beast you're confronting. Seems more like an amateur repair with a counterfeit label. Did I have that number right? A few pictures would be worth a thousand or two words.

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Here is a view of the neck block.

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Can you see the triangular wedge in the headstock?

[WoodyMcKenzie]

Here is a full view with the very dark back leaning behind it. The top is a replacement, done about 20 years ago, at least that is what I was told.
Any more insights that you might have would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Woody

[f5loar]

Unless my eyes are playing tricks on me I see a very faint almost erased 5 after the A making this a label for an A5.
The number I read falls in the 1961 year. Numbers falling between 100 and 42440 which this one does is 1961. To be a 1953 there would have to an A in front of the 15442 and I see no indication it had an A and a '53 would still have the white label not orange. The Orange label starts in 1955. Where are you guys getting the Orange label is correct for 1953? Now the question is why would you take a '61 Orange label A5 label out and put it in this prewar A model is the mystery unless because the low end A or Ajrs paddle heads did not have Gibson at the top and someone wanted you to know it was the real deal Gibson. I doubt it's a 1913 A or Ajr either but I'm really not up on models below the F5.

[Paul Hostetter]

Because of having neither body binding nor a soundhole ring, this looks like a pre-1923 A-Jr or a slightly later A-0 with a non-original white ring inside the soundhole, refinished and all - with a later label stuck in. The neck-stiffening wedge and the headstock originally intended for reverse gears would be appropriate for that 20's era.

The label is later and neither original nor appropriate in any way. The number I got was correct for 1953, you're right, that orange label wasn't used until 1955.

I wish the pictures were better and more complete and that requests for clarification on the number had been answered. In any event, it looks like a real mongrel of questionable authenticity or value. Gibson built the original mandolin, some hack tried to trick it out more recently. I certainly wouldn't have removed the back to deal with those cracks, but seeing the asymmetrical dovetail is interesting.

[f5loar]

That would would be correct for '53 if it had an A in front of it. It does not. Being orange means it can not be from '53 therefore you have to go to the '55 and later serial numbers without the A prefix which comes up '61.
I still think it's a real A5 label from 1961.

[Tom C]

I would think the headstock would have some trace of the gold stencil 50's style "Gibson". So with that wedge also maybe it was replaced at some point.

[Paul Hostetter]

Come on, guys - there is absolutely nothing about that mandolin that suggests other than that it is an old 20's ultra-plain A model with a counterfeit label in it and a series of bad repairs.

[f5loar]

I don't think anybody has doubted it's pre-21 A oval model.
The question was is this a fake Gibson label or from another Gibson and answer would be it's a real Gibson label from another mandolin most likely an A5 from 1961.
Would Gibson have redone a pre21 in the 50's or 60's with a new neck and standard A40/50 neck appointments.... yes! But they didn't on this one. It's a hack job and someone had a Gibson label laying around and stuck it in there to let you know it's a real Gibson. Sorta ups the value a bit!