Gibson F9 tuning or tuner problems

[truebob]

I purchased a 2004 Gibson F9 used off the mandolin cafe classifieds about 6 months ago. #It has the satin silver Gibson Grover tuners. I can't get this mando to stay in tune! I thought it was the John Pearse strings, which are kind of light, so I switched to D'Addario J-74s, but am having the same problem. The tuners seem to have a lot more play in them than the Schallers on my 98 Gibson A5G (which stays in tune very well). I have to retune after each song, unless I play very lightly and am careful not to bend strings with my left hand. This is especially annoying when performing. #The A and E strings are the worst offenders. They go flat. I've searched the archives and found most people are pleased with Gibson Grovers. I'm wondering if it's just the light build of this mandolin that makes it susceptible to tuning problems. Anybody have any ideas? #I love the tone of the F9 by the way, loudest rawest sounding mandolin I've ever owned. My bandmates and others like the sound too, until it goes out of tune.

[CAS]

Try puting a bone nut on it It helped my A-9
CAS

[Frank Russell]

Same here. The Corian nut mine came with was always binding up. Plus, mine sounded so much better with a bone nut. Frank

[PaulD]

My F-9 is about the same vintage and, IIRC, has the same tuners. It stays in tune very well with the original nut. I'm not even as diligent as I used to be to always drop the note flat and tune up to take up any slop in the tuner gears and it seems to do fine. Maybe you've got a bad set of tuners... too bad it's second hand, or I'm sure Gibson would take care of it. I hope you can work it out.

pd

[steve in tampa]

Had that problem with a 2003 F9, replaced the nut and tuners, and all is good.

[Big Joe]

Normally tuning problems as you describe are the nut. It can be adjusted or replaced with a better material and you are likely to find satisfaction. Rarely is it the tuners, often it is the nut...not just the one strumming it http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/smile.gif .

[Kevin Briggs]

Big Joe,

I currently use J75s. I like them, but am open to other strings. What are the benefits of using Gibson Bronze (Monroe's favorite!) or another Gibson mandolin set. I like the fat sound of the J75s, but they hurt me hands so much.

[truebob]

Thanks Big Joe, was hoping you'd have a suggestion. The nut is the original one, and I did put some pencil lead graphite in the slots, but I'll have to look more closely and see if there is any binding going on.

[JGWoods]

While those who say it is the nut might be right, I don't understand why it would be so- unless you are tuning "down"- i.e. going from too sharp and slacking the strings until they are in tune. Then I could understand a nut problem, but if you are tuning up, going from flat up to in tune how is the nut going to have an effect and make the mando go flat as you play it.

It sure seems like tuners to me.

[Big Joe]

Hey Rather...Try the EXP74's or the Elixer Nanowebs. #You will find them the same size as the Monroe's, but they will last far longer. #The Monroe string is an excellent string but they require changing too often for my. #Once you settle on a string you like, you may need to get your mandolin set up for those strings and the nut adjusted for those strings. #Once you have that done you will be very happy with the results.

[Paul Hostetter]

Somewhere else on this list today, someone else registered the fact that they'd never had tuning problems until they switched to coated strings. The supposition is that the coating detaches and gums up the slots and ultimately causes friction. I haven't run into this, but it seems quite plausible. They're a godsend for people with gnarly skin chemistry, but they may have that downside.

I'll join the little chorus here and say that the tuning problems are likely nut issues, but how one winds strings on the tuners can be big as well.

http://www.lutherie.net/stringing.mandolin.jpg

Not too many winds around that post! And lubrication of the gears is critical. If the screws are too tight or there's any friction in the gears themselves, it can really mess things up.

[J.Albert]

Paul Hostetter wrote:
<< And lubrication of the gears is critical. If the screws are too tight or there's any friction in the gears themselves, it can really mess things up. >>

Paul, what _kind_ of lubrication do you recommend, and how much?

Thanks,
- John

[Paul Hostetter]

Tri-Flow: http://www.lutherie.net/tri.flow.jpg

There's a gun lubricant that a lot of people like, but it's essentially identical: teflon, no petroleum carrier to gum up later. Do not use WD-40, 3-In-1, or any oil. Lubriplate is OK but it seems to disappear in a year; this stuff lasts for years and years.

You lube under the cog where it rubs on the plate, the bearings at either end of the worm, the parts of the cog and worm that touch, and even the place where the shaft rubs the bushing. Doesn't take a lot. Just be thorough.

[Kevin Briggs]

Once you have that done you will be very happy with the results.
Thanks, Big Joe. I'm still looking for that perfect setup too...

[GTison]

going Flat? I would also have to ask if the strings are wrapped as in Paul's illustration above. 2nd, you may also need to graphite the saddle as well. you could be getting more "string length" from that end as well. And after you put new strings on I pull them after I get them in tune and re-tune to get some more of that elasticity out. ( I don't think it's the tuners either) Good luck let us know what works.

[truebob]

Ok, thanks for all the advice. My luthier checked the nut and said it was ok. He suggested "locking" the strings. Same technique as Paul's "backwind" graphic shows above. I've never had to lock strings before, but just wound them on like on the left side of Paul's graphic, without the backbend. He showed me why it's important to lock strings. He locked and A-string and left the other A-string the way I had it (which was one wrap over the cut end and three wraps under, but not "locked" with a backbend) He then pulled up on the A-strings to stretch them. Surprise. The locked string held pitch and the unlocked string went flat. Don't know why this hasn't happend to me before on numerous guitars and mandolins, but this is the first time I've had Grover mando tuners, so maybe it's a necessity in this case.

So I locked my A and E strings and went to our restuarant jam/gig Sunday night, and while I had to fiddle with tuning more than I liked, I think it was because the restaurant was very dry (Colorado wintertime dry), and my practice room at home is cool and kept at 45-50% rh. Everyone was having to retune as instruments went flat. It wasn't the same as before when one A or one E string would suddenly go flat.

So, more time will tell if this was the simple solution to my tuning problem, but I think it probably was. I'll update this post if I find out different.

Thanks again, Bob

[J.Albert]

Hello all -

In response to Paul Hostetter's recommendation for TriFlow lubricant for tuners, I went out hunting for it today - to no avail. Neither WalMart, Home Depot, Sears, a hobby shop, or even an industrial hardware supply shop had the stuff.

If I can't find anyone else who might have it (thinking of bicycle shops), guess you have to "go to the Net" to find it.

I did some browsing of TriFlow's web site and found the following information. Might be worth saving in your archives somewhere:
============
Comes in liquid form in the following formats:
#TF21010 - 2oz drip bottle
#TF0021060 - 6oz drip bottle
#TFBC20027 - 1/4oz pin-point lubricator pen

And also in dry format:
#TF21013 - 2oz DRY lubricant drip bottle

Display format pdf file here:
http://www.triflowlubricants.com/Dealer-...._r2.pdf (http://www.triflowlubricants.com/Dealer-Media/pressreleases/Display_Flyer_r2.pdf)

General product images here:
http://www.triflowlubricants.com/Dealer-Media/image.html

Triflow home page:
http://www.triflowlubricants.com/index.html
============

I've found it on ebay by using this search URL:
http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?from=R40&satitle=tri-flow

A few ebay auctions offering it (disclaimer: I have no connection to any of these, other than I might buy from one or the other):
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Tri-Flow-Bicycle-Lubricant-Triflow-Lube-with-Teflon_W0QQitemZ7212516641QQcategoryZ42317QQt
cZphotoQQcmdZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Tri-Flo....iewItem</a>

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Tri-Flow-Lubricant-2-oz-Bobbin-Thread-Lube_W0QQitemZ8197112140QQcategoryZ28172QQrdZ1QQcm dZ
ViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Tri-Flo....iewItem</a>

<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Tri-Flow-Paintball-Lube-2oz-Bottle-Timmy-DM4_W0QQitemZ7171383165QQcategoryZ47251QQrdZ1QQcm
dZViewItem" target="_blank">http://cgi.ebay.com/Tri-Flo....iewItem</a>

The last item looks like it _might_ be from a seller who buys in bulk and repackages... I've emailed him to ask if that's the case, and will report his answer back here.

Hope this proves useful to someone,
- John

[Greenmando]

In response to Paul Hostetter's recommendation for TriFlow lubricant for tuners, I went out hunting for it today - to no avail. Neither WalMart, Home Depot, Sears, a hobby shop, or even an industrial hardware supply shop had the stuff.
Check a gun shop. I have bought it at our "Turners" gun shop.

[Bill Snyder]

In other threads I believe that Paul has mentioned that it is commonly stocked in bike shops.

[GTison]

I purchased Finish Line Teflon Plus Dry Lubricant, thinking that it was the same product. I haven't put any on my tuners yet. I purchased it at sports authority in the bike section.

[steve in tampa]

Amsoil MP Metal Protecor is a spray on dry lube that works very well.