New instrument, bad setup

Its interesting. Time and time again, I meet people who spend a lot of time and money building instruments, then drive 100's of miles all over the country, rent booths, set-up all their wares, only to display instruments with god aweful setups. Or they ship them to their dealers in a similar condition. What are they thinking?

This is how I judge a good luthier from someone trying to make a fast buck in the music business. If they built it, but can't set it up properly, I am not going to buy it because they apparently don't know what they are doing or aren't willing to go that extra mile to show pride in their creation and craft.

If they don't set it up to be all it can be, you have to wonder what other details they ignored or flubbed during the process.

Buyer beware.

[Stephen Perry]

Some things to keep in mind:

1. Different people like different setups. Sometimes a large difference.

2. Traveling will sometimes upset the setup on instruments. I often end up having to tweek setups lots. Especially in cold weather like now if the instruments aren't insulated. Takes a while to get around to all of them.

3. Many good makers of various things don't set things up much. They mostly make. Some violin makers actually like others with constant setup experience to tweek their setups. I don't know that building and setup capabilities are necessarily linked.

[ronlane3]

Hutto, Why are you bashing others without putting your name on your signature? That's weak.

Ron Lane

[red7flag]

Steve, as I remember from some other posts, you actually buy some Mandos not set up and then you set them up?
Tony

[Stephen Perry]

I prefer to get things not set up, at least not set up all the way. #Mandolins generally have nut slot spacing and the like done OK. #I like to do the bridge and final work on everything. #On violins I prefer rather raw, so I do the planing of the fingerboard, even final neck shaping, and all the rest. #Generally I have to redo that stuff except on a couple of suppliers' products, so I would rather just have a discount and do it myself.

I haven't noticed any "fast bucks" at all in the luthiery business!

On the other hand, building and setting up are indeed different arts. A maker only gets to do a few setups a year. Whereas a fellow in a good retail shop may go through several instruments in a day.

Hutto, Why are you bashing others without putting your name on your signature? That's weak.

Ron Lane
I mentioned no names, and I pointed no fingers. This topic is something that I have been thinking about for a long time now, it is not a recent developement. Please don't drag it into the wrong direction.

Stick to topic, troll, or ignore me. Its your choice.

I have no intention of bashing anyone in this thread. This is more of a public service announcement for people who are looking for a new mandolin and are not very experienced with the process. Its a shame it wasn't taken in that spirit.

That is all.

[Stephen Perry]

Hutto,

For what it is worth, you seem to be slamming many folks who build instruments, perhaps all, in spite of your protestations about lack of intent. #

It isn't a shame your post wasn't taken in some hidden spirit. #It is a shame you can't accept how it has been taken.

First, different people like different setups. #Most experienced folks have preferences, including both builders and players. #Most makers will shift a setup for a buyer. #

As to "What are they thinking?" #Perhaps they don't know their setups don't meet general standards, your standards, or perhaps things shift in shipping. #This happens to all instruments. # #

"This is how I judge a good luthier from someone trying to make a fast buck in the music business."

Seems a straightforward slam to me. #Anyone seeking a fast buck in the music business isn't going to be making anything. #You've made a silly and unnecessary statement that in your world there are 2 kinds of luthiers, those who are "good" and those who are trying "to make a fast buck." #I would think additional gradations would lie in there.

"If they built it, but can't set it up properly, I am not going to buy it because they apparently don't know what they are doing or aren't willing to go that extra mile to show pride in their creation and craft."

Not knowing what they are doing in setup is pretty much different from not knowing how to build a good instrument. #Setup, making, and repair are all quite different arts. #Someone who doesn't know that you'll require some "extra mile" they don't know about isn't going to attempt to go down it. #

"If they don't set it up to be all it can be, you have to wonder what other details they ignored or flubbed during the process."

I don't see any basis for this at all. #From my limited perspective, I see mandolins daily that are in my hands to see what I can get out of them. #I have them stacked up at the moment. #There's generally a great deal more in them. #Many are real jewels, fine works of art. #I marvel at the precision and elegance of many of these instruments. #Often the player's preferences are different from what the builder put into the instrument. #One maker always has a stock setup way higher than what I tend to use. #Whoopie. #They aren't incompetent or out for some fast $. #They simply do things differently than I do and than most of the people who send things to me want. The people who like their setups and stock performance (and I know that includes the vast majority of their customers) don't send their mandolins to me. Others have clearly come a little undone in shipping and the first month or two of playing. #A tweek here and there, they come alive.

Nobody makes instruments to make a bunch of money. #Selling instruments? #Sure, one can make a reasonable living. #But making is way low on the list of things that make money, even things that make money in the music business. #

Now, back to the point at issue. #First, are mandolins delivered to shops from importers or makers set up well or not? #In general, the lower end trade models from Korea are not. #They don't pretend to be. #Kentucky. #Morgan Monroe. #For example. #That is the job of the shop. If it doesn't happen, that's the shop's fault. #Small-shop production lines? #Varies. #The instruments I've seen fresh out of Weber, Collings, Gibson, Eastman, Breedlove, and all the others I've run into from small to mid size shops have very consistent setups that are always quite usable as is. #Dead center average setups ready for personal tweeking by the end user himself or in conjunction with his shop. #The small builders? #I've seen a wider range of setups, from truly superlative and obviously attended to with great care to the marginal ones I suspect you are attempting to highlight. #I've not seen a maker who couldn't play his own setup as well as he could anyone else's. #Some are a bit inconsistent. #Some are consistent in ways I don't happen to like and that aren't really mainstream. #That doesn't mean the setup is wrong, not good, not whatever, just that it isn't going to be to everyone's liking.

And instruments do settle in during transport. #At SPBGMA about 1/3 of the mandolins I had along needed adjustment to play well by the time I got them unpacked. #They were new to begin with, and then rode in a truck for 3 hours. #In the cold. #That they didn't perform up to snuff right away is no indicator of the quality of setup they started out with or of my intentions in this business.

So, back to those I think you're warning us against. #Let's distinguish greed from incompetence from differing tastes from shipping weirdness. #I can quite honestly say I've not seen a greedy luthier who has driven miles to show his stuff. Greed and paying for gas and space only for the opportunity to annoy folks with poor setup work don't go together. #Taste differences and shipping aside, we have incompetence left. #Where does incompetence come from? #I think mostly it comes from lack of knowledge of standards in a given industry or field and from lack of basic skills and training. #

Lack of knowledge seems to come from either willful ignorance of things known or simply not realizing there are standards.

Lack of skill and training comes from lack of knowledge, practice, and possibly talent.

I see this problem mostly in guitars. #Somebody way off somewhere comes up with a guitar line and makes 30 guitars, gets a booth at NAMM, prints up a bunch of literature. #The things don't intonate, have some gloppy finish, will never sell to cognizant buyers. #These folks don't show up again. #Maybe they figured out the standards and that they couldn't meet them, or maybe not. #

In mandolins, I see some that are really kind of sloppy and home made looking, but that people seem to like. #This pleases me. I like that type of work. #I haven't thought to correlate setup with the roughness of work. #Although some of this type of work I remember being associated with buttery smooth playing characteristics, something that usually doesn't happen without careful setup. The casual looking construction is "on purpose." I make violins that way - quickly and freely - so it doesn't bother me.

I find myself wondering who you're warning against what. #The folks reading here are unlikely to care much about a setup they are likely to tweek themselves. #Beginners aren't going to buy an oddball mandolin from a small incompetent maker. #I don't think. #Maybe they do. #

Perhaps the most efficient thing a beginner could do with a mandolin under consideration is to let experienced players try it. #I find this rather useful. #I don't indicate I'm looking for feedback. #That gets people looking for things that are wrong, rather than seeing whether what is there works. #There are certain type of people always looking for something wrong, for sinister motives. #Best not to give them something to chew on.

Also, as ronlane3 points out, appearing to bash unknown luthiers and telling folks to beware of the greedy isn't all that effective while hiding behind a pseudonym. #

Perhaps there are more effective approaches to getting your point across. #Maybe something like:

"Players considering stepping up to a small-shop or luthier-made mandolin might consider the experience and effectiveness of the builder in setting up instruments. #Some who concentrate on construction don't do a tremendous number of setups. #These instruments generally benefit from additional setup work. #If you're not sure of your ability to determine whether or not a particular instrument or the work of a specific builder or shop is sufficiently well set up to serve your needs, consider getting a couple of outside opinions. #This information may play into your decision to purchase or not."

Think that's sort of what you're attempting to get at. #Bringing in the concept that builders who can't set up are probably incompetent at everything seems unnecessary. #Neither does the odd concept that some makers intentionally short change players because of their deep hunger for that last ounce of cash.

I look forward to your other helpful comments, preferably over your name.

[fred d]

I agree with the original post on this form and I have ask this question before on this form I recently went to a hightly praised shop out here known for there string instrument set ups. I looked at mandos from $800 and up to several tounsand none sounded as good as my chepie that I got on Ebay and tried to tune myself ( trying to learn for the last year) I finally ordered a new mando from one of the advisers here and i'm very very happy http://www.mandolincafe.net/iB_html/non-cgi/emoticons/tounge.gif

[Stephen Perry]

Fred, Mr. Hutto was referring to makers, rather than shops. Shops differ widely in approach to setting up incoming instruments and maintaining those setups, but that appears to be another issue: Why some shops neglect setup and maintenance, and what players can do about it.

Fortunately, as you note, there are plenty of good shops nationwide that understand the instrument.

[Ted Eschliman]

As the orginal poster has demonstrated an aptitude for trolling in some of the other threads in the Cafe Discussion Board, I can only assume his motive was an attempt to create ire rather than "educate."

Though this could have been an intersting topic, I'm closing this thread in the hopes that if someone else wants to discuss the issue of the importance of instrument set-ups, this might do so, proceeding in a less heated, less personal direction.